Author Topic: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems  (Read 26433 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #150 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 10:49:11 »
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.

Online ptiede

  • Posts: 174
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #151 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 10:59:46 »
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.

Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.

Offline dgneo

  • Supervillain
  • Posts: 1944
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #152 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 11:29:36 »
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.

Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.

1.30 is still too large, that's the issue, not tightening tolerances.
Jane | Poly 910

Online ptiede

  • Posts: 174
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #153 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 11:35:05 »
They aren't going to match the other ones, above you can find that the older ones were "1.30±0.03 and the new box stems will be 1.30±0.02", so, not fixed at all. Still a no buy.

Umm how is lowering the tolerances worse? That doesn't really make sense.

1.30 is still too large, that's the issue, not tightening tolerances.
1.30 matches Kailh's other switches, like the Halo stems and speed switches. I have had no stretching or cracking from those, nor have I heard of any. That's my point. That 1.30 had no evidence for having issues.

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #154 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 12:28:05 »
The fact is that Cherry is the standard, this BOX switches, both 1.30 and 1.32, do not meet that standard. Getting closer to Cherry specs will just solve the issue with ANY possible keycap out there.

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #155 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 13:42:03 »
Most comments have at least a legit reasoning. What is it closer to be truth is that Kaihl cross has been designed to be larger than most other MX switches. It is not known if the "fix" will avoid interference with keycap stems. I think I can give them the benefit of the doubth and let my order to be fulfilled and see by my self it KBS work well, or some rework is still needed.

Offline Glod

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 1956
  • Location: Virginia, USA
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #156 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 16:06:48 »
Did I get lucky with mine?

Ive been using Box Browns and Hako Trues for quite some time now, exclusively, I switch out my caps more than a normal keyboard hobbyist, use almost exclusively EnjoyPBT and GMK caps, and haven't had any issues, i did notice the GMK caps what were on the BOX seemed a little loose on the Gateron i switched them to; but i thought nothing of it.

I have also been lucky enough not to have a single BOX switch fail ever.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #157 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 17:06:34 »
Most comments have at least a legit reasoning. What is it closer to be truth is that Kaihl cross has been designed to be larger than most other MX switches. It is not known if the "fix" will avoid interference with keycap stems. I think I can give them the benefit of the doubth and let my order to be fulfilled and see by my self it KBS work well, or some rework is still needed.

They won't fix anything. They never said that they would match the cherry size and tolerance, so they're just taking time and disappointing customers.

And yes. LOL. In a couple of weeks I'll put my 150 USD cherry set on a 0.2 USD switch. Sure.

Offline monkt

  • Posts: 81
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #158 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 18:55:04 »
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.


If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #159 on: Fri, 03 August 2018, 18:57:25 »
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.


If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?


What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?

Online Starius

  • Posts: 165
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #160 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 09:58:44 »
Hey guys,

So, I only just sorta became aware of this issue, but like many of you I have several bags of box switches on standby - just waiting to be put into boards. 
Of course, after reading all this I am nervous about doing so. 

Do you think that replacement stems will be made available for existing stock out in the wild? I wouldn't look forward to opening up hundreds or even thousands of switches to swap out stems, but I'd rather do that then to completely discard them or gamble on using them. 

Or do you think this metal keycap technique is the best method to fix existing box switches?

I'm at a bit of a loss on what to do at the moment. 
(But I'm not in a major hurry right now. )

Offline mounds

  • Posts: 19
  • Builder of things and stuff
    • The Mounds Abides
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #161 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 12:32:11 »
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.


If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?


What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
 
 
There are some size references on Deskthority wiki, which is hardly official; however, the information there is typically pretty good. That information, plus anecdotal evidence provided through testing by users, does indicate some variation in tolerances between the two brands. 
 
Imagine any other situation where compatibility was claimed and not necessarily found to be true in practice - equal outrage would be had. Look at the USB-C cable debacle on Amazon for some time, for instance. That scandal reformation was led by one individual too...
Tada68 (Jailhouse Aristotles) / MiniVan (Jailhouse Aristotles) / Planck (Aristotles) / Teensy m0116 (Orange & Salmon) / ALPS64 ('Pine' SKCM White) / Teensy NeXT Non-ADB (SKCM Cream) / ALPS HHKB (SKCM Cream Dampened)

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #162 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:00:36 »
If we know the Cherry specs, and agree that that is the standard, why would we "trust" anything that falls outside that standard at this point? Kailh was trusted to begin with, and it seems that their decision to not match Cherry's standard closely enough ended up causing a significant amount of damage. We all have the right, individually, to accept a slight correction on their part, one that still will not quite meet Cherry's long-established standard, but personally I don't see why we would.


If Kailh wishes to claim Cherry compatibility, it should be their responsibility to prove such compatibility. The numbers looked close enough to us before, but that was because we didn't know what really constituted close enough to not cause damage. As the manufacturer they should have determined that information based on proper testing of their product before releasing it to market. At this point, any change they make that still exceeds Cherry's standard should be justified and backed up by testing. Without evidence of that, as a consumer you are making the choice to perform Kailh's product testing for them at your own expense. You can make that choice, but if Kailh wants our business and our trust, why should you have to?


What is the official Cherry spec for the cross? What is the information's source?
 
 
There are some size references on Deskthority wiki, which is hardly official; however, the information there is typically pretty good. That information, plus anecdotal evidence provided through testing by users, does indicate some variation in tolerances between the two brands. 
 
Imagine any other situation where compatibility was claimed and not necessarily found to be true in practice - equal outrage would be had. Look at the USB-C cable debacle on Amazon for some time, for instance. That scandal reformation was led by one individual too...


Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.

Offline chuckdee

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1208
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #163 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:40:16 »
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.

Shall not be?  Or should not be?  If shall not be, then who determines that?  Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...
Clueboard Gateron Browns| RS Ver.b Gateron Browns| Custom JD45 MX Browns


Currently Supporting:

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #164 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 13:47:28 »
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.

Shall not be?  Or should not be?  If shall not be, then who determines that?  Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...


Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.

Offline chuckdee

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 1208
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #165 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 14:30:00 »
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.

Shall not be?  Or should not be?  If shall not be, then who determines that?  Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...


Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.

What...?  I was just asking for clarification as in shall (i.e. expresses certain laws and rules) or should not (i.e. to give advice or an opinion).  I have no idea how what you wrote is in any way related to that question, other than to try to avoid it.
Clueboard Gateron Browns| RS Ver.b Gateron Browns| Custom JD45 MX Browns


Currently Supporting:

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #166 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 15:27:11 »
Well, pretty good information does not qualify as an official Cherry spec. It would be great to get that data to request Kailh to fit it, otherwise, its switches shall not be advertized as Cherry compatible.

Shall not be?  Or should not be?  If shall not be, then who determines that?  Just curious, as I know something could have been lost in the translation...


Parts to be interchangable - called compatibilty - is a technical fact, not a ruled judicial matter. It is not that a comitte may sanction it, even less, being mechanical keyboards a death thing for the mainstream pc accesories industry, computer companies have no motivation to ruled on it. What I meant is that technically, if the larger crosses produce interference with some key caps then they are not MX compatible, and that is a fact.

What...?  I was just asking for clarification as in shall (i.e. expresses certain laws and rules) or should not (i.e. to give advice or an opinion).  I have no idea how what you wrote is in any way related to that question, other than to try to avoid it.


Got your point. My bad.  :thumb:

Offline Glod

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 1956
  • Location: Virginia, USA
    • YouTube Channel
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #167 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 17:53:08 »
I can't replicate this.  I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.

Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA.  If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Offline Photoelectric

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 6602
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #168 on: Sat, 04 August 2018, 22:23:12 »
I can't replicate this.  I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.

Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA.  If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Old DSA molds were too tight on Clears.  That was supposed to have been fixed quite a while ago and should not be a problem with newer DSA kits. 
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a  ||  To be built: MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL
- Keyboard Case Painting Tips -
- Join Mechanical Keyboards photography group on Flickr -

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #169 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 01:33:45 »
I can't replicate this.  I've been playing around with different caps and different BOX switches and keycap pullers out of boredom and haven't broke one cap stem.

Not scientific, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But for reference I've broken handfuls of caps on MX Clear, especially DSA.  If anyone here knows anything about clear switches you would know they have a habit of being really tight. But I guess that's a defect by cherry and we need to contact them and get refunds........

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

OMG  :)) ;) :)) :)) :)) :)) :))

You refund us.

Probably you don't know that DSA keycaps were designed to be tighter on stems, because a client wanted them designed that way for an industrial environment.

"Why are DSA mounts so tight?the DSA family was mainly created for industrial applications where customers required the keyboard to sustain a drop test of 4-6 feet, so the tighter the mount fit the better. These customers, unlike keyboard enthusiast, were not pulling keys on and off the keyboard."
".......They were first designed for POS boards and thus are a very tight fit, watch out if you're using MX clears!"

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 558
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #170 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 02:21:18 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #171 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 05:16:01 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 August 2018, 05:20:26 by mkarlsson »

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #172 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 05:51:05 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

Why on earth cherry should publish some specs that are reserved to keycaps makers or to business partners? If you have a business deal with them, they'll make you know how to make cherry compatible stems, otherwise you buy their stems, measure them, and reverse engineer them. Why on earth do you assume that there is no form of quality control? Do you assume that the engine of your car is out of spec simply because you can't find on the internet some public blue print? If you are a third party switch maker, you simply measure the keycaps, the existing stems, and then you make a compatible product, that's the end of it. If you aren't able to do so, you (not you HotRoderx) are an imbecile. I don't even understand why some people actually like kailh. Many geekhackers had thousands of dollars lost, and still someone says that kailh is right. That's crazy.

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #173 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 07:27:54 »
Chyrosran22 mentions the issue in his latest video, starting at 3:45:


Online ptiede

  • Posts: 174
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #174 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 13:22:34 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.

Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.

At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 August 2018, 13:33:55 by ptiede »

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #175 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 16:58:26 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.

Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.

At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.

I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.

Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.


Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #176 on: Sun, 05 August 2018, 19:13:12 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.

Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.

At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.

I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.

Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.


Kailh will reduce the horizontal axis down to 1.3, but that is still larger than any other MX clone. Let's see how those upcoming switches work in RL. Yet, I wonder why they just do not come down to 1.27 and actually solve the issue completely.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #177 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 06:08:57 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.

Some people are starting to do some measurement of cherry clears and they are around 1.30 for a median and or mean. We actually don't really know the cherry cruciform either, or the specs. Deskthority.net has some numbers but they aren't official and give a pretty large range. So kailhs new specs may not be that different from cherry. At least for clears.

At the end of the day though us arguing about this doesn't really matter. Bigger people are going to or already have made these decisions. We will see if kailhs solution is enough. If it isn't then no one will use their switches for a long time.

I have a lot of clears and taking some measurements they all are between 1.26 and 1.27 on the horizontal axis. The issue with the clears AFAIK is with the vertical axis, being around 1.19 / 1.20, instead of common 1.1 of the rest of models.

Us arguing I think it does matter, in the end it was an indivual who brought all this to light, and I think Kaihl is listening to the community to at least to some level. I don't want them to fail again, they have interesting things to offer and I had high hopes for the BOX thick click range. Hope they don't mess it again, really.


Kailh will reduce the horizontal axis down to 1.3, but that is still larger than any other MX clone. Let's see how those upcoming switches work in RL. Yet, I wonder why they just do not come down to 1.27 and actually solve the issue completely.

By reducing the stems down to 1.27mm, they'd aknowledge that they're wrong, and that you can claim that your sets have been damaged by them. By reducing the keycaps by an infinitesimal amount, they can say that such an infinitesimal amout can't be surely the cause of your cracking, and that you deserve no money or replacements.

Offline PoochZag

  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Indiana, US
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #178 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 08:47:23 »
Maybe, but IDK how that would really hold up legally (.02 is meaningless but .05mm is admitting wrongdoing), nor are we sure they have any legal culpability to begin with.

I agree with the questioning why not just go down to 1.27mm if they have to remake new molds.  Seems like it would instill more trust within us in the community. But maybe that's just it.  Maybe the original BOX molds were 1.30 (their previous switches are) and then when DAREU asked for tight fit they made 1.32 molds.  1.30 molds already existing would explain why they so quickly decided to go with that
Tada68's: Gat Yellow and 65G Zilents

Offline heyitsqi

  • Posts: 41
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #179 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 12:57:02 »
While I appreciate that Kalih is going to "fix" this issue hopefully I don't think I'd ever trust buying box switches for a long time. I had wanted to mess with the box tactiles but now I'll just stick to my Zealios.

I do feel incredibly bad for those that have cracked stems on expensive keysets though :(

Online Rumblehotep

  • Posts: 247
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #180 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 16:53:51 »
Decapped all my box boards... didn't see any cracks or stress marks on SA or pbt caps but there are definite stress marks on my nautilus enter key and novelties.
Which is weird since I just built it a month ago with royal hako clears, while other boards that have had gmk sitting on them for almost a year are fine.  So time must not necessarily be a factor.
I am so bummed out since some of these are my favorite switches.
This is gonna be a lot of desoldering...

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #181 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 17:28:32 »
Decapped all my box boards... didn't see any cracks or stress marks on SA or pbt caps but there are definite stress marks on my nautilus enter key and novelties.
Which is weird since I just built it a month ago with royal hako clears, while other boards that have had gmk sitting on them for almost a year are fine.  So time must not necessarily be a factor.
I am so bummed out since some of these are my favorite switches.
This is gonna be a lot of desoldering...

I think the aluminium cap trick is worth trying if you already have some built boards.

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 558
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #182 on: Mon, 06 August 2018, 20:50:24 »
Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

There was a group buy a while back with Silent MX blacks that cherry put MX Silent Red Springs in. Then refused to do anything sighting they where in spec. That means that according to cherry a 15g differences in spring weight was ok. That kinda tolerance is extremely lose and I remember it taking a lot of tugging and pulling to get that info out of them. I bet its the same way with the crosses. I bet there isn't really a "set tolerances" just do they pop out of the mods. Do they look ok, if the answer is yes. They pass quality control and are off to the consumer.

There also the fact we don't know what tolerances of key caps are. There honestly might not even be a tolerance for that either when push comes to shove. There a lot of speculation but not much in the way of fact.

Fact People are having issues
Fact We don't know the tolerances of cherry
Fact We don't know the tolerances of the Key cap manufactures
Fact Having some random people testing 2-3k key's isn't a large enough simple to make a educated or even estimated guess on how switch manufacturing is affected between batches.

hey HotRoderX,

It's true that Cherry stem specs and tolerances are not available to the public, but do you really think they don't have those specs for themselves? I highly doubt they don't.

You only point out tolerances, which in reallity are only "needed" when the size of cross is that big (1.30 / 1.32). If Kailh stayed at around 1.25 or 1.26 like most Cherry switches the tolerances do not play a big role there, knowing they used to have +-0.003 and now going for +-0.002. Keycaps seem to go fine in a range of 1.24 - 1.26.

I've measured Gaterons, Aliaz, MOD's and Cherry's that I have around and none of them get even close to 1.30. They all go from 1.24 to 1.26.

I would add other fact:

Fact Other manufacturests have been manufacturing Cherry clones for some years now and they were able to successfuly meet the standards.

Again, I am not an engineer, but as I said before, with a size of 1.26 +-0.002 they would be save IMO.


Guy's I kinda wondering if the reason no one know's cherry's tolerances on the cross sizes, is simply because it doesn't exist.

Why on earth cherry should publish some specs that are reserved to keycaps makers or to business partners? If you have a business deal with them, they'll make you know how to make cherry compatible stems, otherwise you buy their stems, measure them, and reverse engineer them. Why on earth do you assume that there is no form of quality control? Do you assume that the engine of your car is out of spec simply because you can't find on the internet some public blue print? If you are a third party switch maker, you simply measure the keycaps, the existing stems, and then you make a compatible product, that's the end of it. If you aren't able to do so, you (not you HotRoderx) are an imbecile. I don't even understand why some people actually like kailh. Many geekhackers had thousands of dollars lost, and still someone says that kailh is right. That's crazy.


Thinking yall kinda missed my point. My point simply is when it came to MX black switches there tolerances are so lose. That a MX black switch can have a spring weight the same as a MX red switch. Thats insanely lose tolerances and specs. That being said its completely with in the realm of possibilities that the stems on Kailh are with in Cherry tolerances and specs. As others said consumers will vote at the end of the day. With out Cherry going this is the guide QC uses to measure stems. We can't really say and making something off a reversed engineered sample isn't creating it to spec. That is just taking a sample and guessing.

Regardless either the community will buy box switches are they won't. It's totally possible that at the end of the day Kailh doesn't care either way. I am sure we make up a small portion of the switches total overall sales.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #183 on: Tue, 07 August 2018, 01:12:00 »
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 558
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #184 on: Tue, 07 August 2018, 01:19:21 »
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.

Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.

Offline Poesjuh

  • Posts: 244
  • Location: Netherlands - N-H
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #185 on: Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:35:42 »
Perhaps get back on topic instead of a 1v1..? 🤷🏻‍♂️
Any news with regard to possible cracks in pbt key caps and the future of box switches?
IMO the 1.29 or whatever really doesn’t cut it. Inb4 boxgate 2.0


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Photoelectric

  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 6602
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #186 on: Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:37:27 »
Last few posts have been removed as they add nothing but personal insults.  Please stay on topic and try to be polite to each other.
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a  ||  To be built: MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL
- Keyboard Case Painting Tips -
- Join Mechanical Keyboards photography group on Flickr -

Online Rumblehotep

  • Posts: 247
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #187 on: Tue, 07 August 2018, 11:47:37 »
Have any caliper people measured the non-BOX kailh switch stems?
Wondering if they have the same horizontal thickening

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #188 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 02:00:06 »
You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.

Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.

The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.

Offline Draic

  • Posts: 78
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #189 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 02:30:00 »
I for one will not trust Kaihl for a long time going forward. I had box switches here ready for a new build project, but I will refrain from using them. They can claim making adjustments, but I will not purchase any. The hype for the Box switches was high and it now took many month for this issue to come to light. Maybe after 1 or 2 years with improved box switches and happy customers, I might consider them again, but the damage in trust is there. Anyone who is unhappy with how they are making adjustments and that those are not good enough, should also speak with their wallet: Just don't buy the switches.

Offline voight-kampff

  • Posts: 74
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #190 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 03:17:05 »
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.

What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition? 
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.

That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.

So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.


You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.

Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.

The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.

Online mkarlsson

  • Posts: 210
  • Location: Spain
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #191 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 03:32:31 »
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.

What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition? 
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.

That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.

So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.


You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.

Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.

The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.

But, again, other manufacturers are not cracking that same keycaps, just kailh BOX.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

Offline ideus

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 7117
  • Location: In the middle of nowhere.
  • Truthful writing and politeness do not mix well.
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #192 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 07:23:21 »
Most design problems are multifactorial. However, in this case it relates with mechanical interference. Almost all Cherry compatible switches are within tolerances, while KBS are not. That fact sums the problem entirely into a poor tolerance stack management in the design of the KBS's cross width. As you can see is pretty simple. You may discuss materials and all but as long as other MX clones have been used issue free reveals this simple design flaw.

Online OracleKev

  • Posts: 203
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #193 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 09:17:53 »
Most design problems are multifactorial. However, in this case it relates with mechanical interference. Almost all Cherry compatible switches are within tolerances, while KBS are not. That fact sums the problem entirely into a poor tolerance stack management in the design of the KBS's cross width. As you can see is pretty simple. You may discuss materials and all but as long as other MX clones have been used issue free reveals this simple design flaw.

Nice sum up. There are now tons of caliper measurements and first hand accounts of stem damages—makes this practically conclusive.
Stem cross width being within whatever spec is poor excuse since that just means the spec is wrong.
It’s mind boggling how much property damage KBS have caused. Sigh...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 558
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #194 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 15:22:33 »
I think the problem is not necessary only a stem-size issue.
It is easy to say kalih is a chinese company so they f@cked up.

What about the newer abs / pbt plastic material chemical composition? 
What when some keycap manufacturers use some slightly modified ABS plastic? There were some changes in the last decades regarding plastic materials because environment protection. I can also imagine that some newer sort or quality of plastic can be more prone to cracking while some others are not.

That would be also an explanation why some keycaps of some keycap manufacturers are more sensitive to the size issue.

So I am not saying that there is no size issue, only that the problem can have more aspects than size.


You miss the point. You confuse a one time error with a spring, with a deliberate act of ripping switches apart and doing nothing about it. And then continuing to make the switches too big.

No your mistaken, according to cherry there was no error. A 35 gram spring in place of a 55 gram spring is with in spec for there tolerances with MX Blacks. That means MX Red switches and MX black switches can have the same spring weights and be with in Cherry spec. There was no mistake made according to cherry.

Also they already said the switch stims were designed wider because another client requested them that was ordering the bulk of the switches. That being said we still DO NOT KNOW if the Box switches are with in Cherry spec. The reason we don't know is cause cherry hasn't published what the spec is. Random samples and saying ooo its to big for switches. Isn't the same thing as a company saying hey this is our tolerances, anything outside of this number is wrong.

The kailh box switches aren't within cherry specs because they break keycaps, and specifically they break keycaps made by cherry. About the document that states what the specs are, you won't ever have it because cherry mx technology isn't licensed but simply copied, and such tolerances and dimensions are only for cherry internal use. You continue to talk about tolerances and size and dimensions, when it's the stem size which is wrong, without taking into account any tolerance. It breaks keycaps? Than the size is wrong.

But, again, other manufacturers are not cracking that same keycaps, just kailh BOX.


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not. I feel everyone is quick to roast Kailh over these switches when truth be told we don't know all the facts. I have heard varying reports  of box switches with no problems and others that nuke stims faster then you can blink.
I also personally have had issues with Aliaz  and MOD switches. Cap's any cap's fit on them extremely lose to the point I am shimming them so they stay on. My Godspeed set the space bar fits lose on anything but MX clear's.

That being said and pointed out. How do we know cap manufactures hadn't shrunk down there dyes by a tad to help elevate the lose stim issues with switches that are becoming popular/are popular.

My point I am trying to make is there might not be any standard in the making of cap's and switches. Most likely there isn't because cherry's never released there tolerances. That is the case someone really needs to sit down and make a standard. What has worked for 20 year's might not work tomorrow. History has proven this time and time again. Cherry doesn't want to step up and release there standard's and Tolerances. Perhaps then other manufactures should get together decided on the technical aspects then cherry can follow them or continue to fall to the way side.

Before anyone say's GMK uses original cherry molds. I am sure if there still using original mods That hadn't been reworked are retouched in anyway. There getting worn out at this point. Mold's are only good for so many castings before they finally just give up. This could be the other issues perhaps the molds that GMK is using are simply getting worn out. That the stims are not as thick as they once were on some of them. That could explain why some sets are affected and some aren't.

Offline Kevadu

  • Posts: 266
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #195 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:15:19 »
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.

Um...yes we do.  Kailh has officially admitted as much.

I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.

Online ptiede

  • Posts: 174
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #196 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:23:06 »
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.

Um...yes we do.  Kailh has officially admitted as much.

I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.

I think they're referring to the new 1.30 molds.

Offline Giorgio

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: Italy
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #197 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:24:01 »
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.

Um...yes we do.  Kailh has officially admitted as much.

I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.

So true. This thread is a fascinating trip thorough mental perversions. Unbelievable.

Offline HotRoderX

  • Posts: 558
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #198 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 16:34:30 »
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.

Um...yes we do.  Kailh has officially admitted as much.

I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.

can you please quote them as to were they said that? Cause all Kailh said was the following "The size of the stim was increase per a customers request that was buying the bulk of the product" That in no way implies are states that there out of tolerance. Honestly done arguing this with people. This is the part of the community that makes my head spin. Its like people talking about Massdrop. They make there minds up and no amount of reason are logic matters.

Online ptiede

  • Posts: 174
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #199 on: Wed, 08 August 2018, 19:10:45 »
my point is simply this.. we don't know if the box switches are outside tolerances are not.

Um...yes we do.  Kailh has officially admitted as much.

I don't know why you're trying to make a simple thing so complicated.

So true. This thread is a fascinating trip thorough mental perversions. Unbelievable.
Or an example of why it's useless to have a debate on the internet.
« Last Edit: Wed, 08 August 2018, 20:12:39 by ptiede »