Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems

[Hayte]

I emailed candykeys about the new stems a while ago but the response was "soon". I never looked at the box royal listing though so thanks for the heads up. Seeing them differrentiate new and old stem is reassuring.

I still get the feeling there are a handful of people like Mike who give a damn and theres everyone else. I was going to just order from Novelkeys but international shipping cost almost as much as the switches. Damn near made me cry when I got to checkout.

[euphxenos]

I emailed candykeys about the new stems a while ago but the response was "soon". I never looked at the box royal listing though so thanks for the heads up. Seeing them differrentiate new and old stem is reassuring.

I still get the feeling there are a handful of people like Mike who give a damn and theres everyone else. I was going to just order from Novelkeys but international shipping cost almost as much as the switches. Damn near made me cry when I got to checkout.

Have you tried KBDfans?  It takes a while to get them shipped from China, but it'll probably be cheaper for you.  It took 23 days for them to ship some of the new box navies and box pale blues to me from China to the US.  They've got the new version, and the minimum for free shipping is pretty reasonable.

[Hayte]

Yeah, wow. They have a coupon code for free shipping. Thanks for the heads up.

It took Herculian force of will not to add a kbd75 v2 to my cart though...

[Starius]

It takes a while to get them shipped from China, but it'll probably be cheaper for you.  It took 23 days for them to ship some of the new box navies and box pale blues to me from China to the US. 

Things are about to get a bit slower from China due to holidays over there.  There's the Mid-Autumn Festival followed by The National Day of the People's Republic of China which I'm told, despite it's name, is celebrated for a week.  Sounds like things should settle down a bit in mid October.  Until then, I can only assume they're partying hard!

[oHimari]

I had put few keycaps from GMK Laser on the new navy switch with fixed stem for a few days.
After I took those keycaps off, I still discover some stress marks on corners of the x-axis.
Those keycaps still fit on other switches, but I'm not sure how it will turn out if I put them on for a month or longer.
I guess without removing those small nubs on the x-axis it's still not completely safe to put GMK caps on box switch?

[mkarlsson]

Some of us were not really convinced that the new stems would solve the issue... and here is the fact.

[redbanshee]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

[Koriko]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.

[redbanshee]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.

I got them here:

https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches

[Tyson]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.

I got them here:

https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches

Hmmmmmm, interesting. I wonder what Wei did with his old pre-tooled Violets, could he have possibly mixed them in with the new re-tooled and sold them all as "New" re-tooled stems?

[deak0i]

This sucks so bad!!! Just about too pick up my new Ctrl keyboard with Box White Switches, I guess IŽll have to replace them with new ones... I think Massdrop should send out free replacement switches to everyone who bought the Ctrl with box switches. Sucks paying 200 for a keyboard with faulty switches.

So, any suggestions for tactile clicky non Kaihl plate mounted switches similar in feel to the whites?

[OverKill]

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I had put few keycaps from GMK Laser on the new navy switch with fixed stem for a few days.
After I took those keycaps off, I still discover some stress marks on corners of the x-axis.
Those keycaps still fit on other switches, but I'm not sure how it will turn out if I put them on for a month or longer.
I guess without removing those small nubs on the x-axis it's still not completely safe to put GMK caps on box switch?

Which keycap is this that is cracked?

[HaaTa]

Is it possible the keycap was defective?

Can you see this on other keycaps? Or is it just the one keycap?

[Baron]

Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

stay away from box switches, not all kailh

other kailh switches are fine

[Justin_aka_OsP_SSJ4]

Can you confirm you have the new switches? Have you checked the stem against old stock?

[oHimari]

Some additional information to my previous post:
I pretty sure the switch I tested with is updated version of the navy switch. I have old Hako, navy, jade box switch in hand. By comparing them with the naked eye, the new navy switch did have smaller nibs compare to the old one.
Four of GMK caps I tested with are brand new. So the chance I getting four defected GMK caps in the road is really low. And all of them getting varying degrees of stress marks after the test.
I also put SA HyperFuse on my new KIRA EXS build with new box navy for more than a week, and they survived without any stress mark or crack.

[portbaron]

Some additional information to my previous post:
I pretty sure the switch I tested with is updated version of the navy switch. I have old Hako, navy, jade box switch in hand. By comparing them with the naked eye, the new navy switch did have smaller nibs compare to the old one.
Four of GMK caps I tested with are brand new. So the chance I getting four defected GMK caps in the road is really low. And all of them getting varying degrees of stress marks after the test.
I also put SA HyperFuse on my new KIRA EXS build with new box navy for more than a week, and they survived without any stress mark or crack.

I think SP SA caps may handle these better. I have had SA hyperfuse on old box navies for 6 months and they don't seem cracked (I checked 6 randomly). The only GMK I have are on box whites, but I filed those down with a jeweler's file.

[Photoelectric]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.

I got them here:

https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches

Their pictures still show the old stems with extra protrusions on the horizontal part of the +.  Can you inspect your switch stems with a magnifying glass?  To be sure you actually did get the smaller retooled stem?

[parityb1t]

Can confirm, Hako Violets "new version" still cracking stems... Just ruined a JTK set!


Stay away from Kailh switches! NEVER AGAIN!

Where did you get retooled Hako? I wasn't aware that they were released and both I:C and NK pages still list the warning.

I got them here:

https://kbdfans.cn/collections/kailh-switches/products/hako-violet-mechanical-switches

Their pictures still show the old stems with extra protrusions on the horizontal part of the +.  Can you inspect your switch stems with a magnifying glass?  To be sure you actually did get the smaller retooled stem?

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If you, or anyone in fact, have the means to measure accurately what the new stem dimensions are as well. Could verify even further.

[rvcjew]

I have purchased (new) Jades and Navy's from NovelKeys and both with my caliper are at 1.28-1.3mm on the X axis on the bumps. I do not have anything from KBDFans. I guess I will have to use cheap caps on these till more info comes of this?

Malcolm

[ideus]

Has someone tried the switches that were recently delivered by MD?

[HotRoderX]

I have purchased (new) Jades and Navy's from NovelKeys and both with my caliper are at 1.28-1.3mm on the X axis on the bumps. I do not have anything from KBDFans. I guess I will have to use cheap caps on these till more info comes of this?

Malcolm

I am confused if the new sims are the same tolerances as cherry mx clears then its not the switches breaking keycaps. It would have to be the keycaps are out of spec? Unless someone else can bring to reason/light how the switch would be faulty at this point.

[ramblinrose]

Looks like they still have those extra bumps / ridges along the sides. I had at one point considered using kailhs for the clickbar switches, but I think I'll be sticking with the tried and true switches for my boards!

[hammerbrotha]

I posted this on RMK and keebtalk but don't think I posted on GH before. I "Retooled" my box switches using a dremel. I'm personally confident that with enough shaving, that it won't crack keycaps. I'm pretty aggressive with shaving down the nubs so that the caps fit much looser than without retooling.


YMMV and do this at your own risk.

A video of what I did is here:

[ReverbSlush]

Great... I just got my shipment notification for the Novelias pre-order.  I forgot I ordered those.

[Photoelectric]

Same. I don't have callipers, but I'll take macro photos of new stems next to old.  I've shaved old Hako True stems with a CNC'd sharp aluminum keycap, and so far so good with those.  It was mostly the protrusions on the x-axis that are now smoothed out. Curious if the new stems still have the protrusions but a slimmed down cross instead.

[Hayte]

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At least they didn't split all the way like the old box whites!



Ok, I'm going to go back to crying in a corner now...

[phatty]

You have stress on the two support stems from the stabilisers as well.

[HotRoderX]

You have stress on the two support stems from the stabilisers as well.

good catch kinda leads credence to it could be the key caps them self's are the issue.

[Hayte]

Oh, those are $30 Tai Hao thin ABS doubleshots. They are on a board with old stem box whites because there is no way my GMKs are going anywhere near them.

The damage to all 3 posts was probably done when trying to remove the cap. The caps go on ok but taking them off is very hard. I have new box whites coming in the mail so I'll sacrifice the numpad keys in the name of science when they arrive.

[phatty]

I've been using grab bag SA to test the latest batch.

Hako Royal Trues have yet to damage any of my keycaps. I also mounted GMK Laser and JTK PoW and I can't see any signs of wear. I will keep testing and report back.

[TunnaTown]

Same. I don't have callipers, but I'll take macro photos of new stems next to old.  I've shaved old Hako True stems with a CNC'd sharp aluminum keycap, and so far so good with those.  It was mostly the protrusions on the x-axis that are now smoothed out. Curious if the new stems still have the protrusions but a slimmed down cross instead.

Afaik, they slimmed down the bumps.

[CustomerSupport]

Man this isn't inspiring confidence for me in purchasing a Tokyo60 with Halo Trues…

Perhaps I save some money by not getting switches then finding some other switches after the fact?

[portbaron]

Man this isn't inspiring confidence for me in purchasing a Tokyo60 with Halo Trues…

Perhaps I save some money by not getting switches then finding some other switches after the fact?

Halos are not box stems.

[Techno Trousers]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

[Starius]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...

[OracleKev]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...

Whoever is the relevant vendor should be able to order the stems.  Chinese switch mfgs typically are willing to do this.

IMO vendors should step up more.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Starius]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

From everything I've been able to gather, it sounds like this isn't going to be an option.
Which is unfortunate, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution for the old stock.
Perhaps some 3rd party entrepreneur would create a run of compatible stems...

Whoever is the relevant vendor should be able to order the stems.  Chinese switch mfgs typically are willing to do this.

IMO vendors should step up more.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought much the same initially. 
I don't want to put words in the mouths of others, but based on a couple comments I've seen from Mike of Novelkeys, it seems like this solution isn't going to happen.  I don't personally know why.  But all things considered, I feel he's the vendor who has done the most to address this situation.

Personally, I still feel this would be the ideal solution as I don't want to get rid of my old stock of box switches, but feel that I need to in light of the current situation.  I'd be more than happy to purchase new stems and retrofit my switches, if that was an available option.

[Lansky]

CandyKeys have promised that they will replace the old BOX switches for free if you bought from them.



I was curious about it because I bought mine back in March so I contacted them and asked. And they promised me a free replacement too, which is pretty awesome. 

Some vendors do step up. 

[Techno Trousers]

Wow, that is really good of them.

[Photoelectric]

Did Novelkeys invent the BOX switches for Kailh?  If not, then that CandyKeys ad calling the switches "Kailh BOX Switches by Novelkeys" is a misnomer.  Particularly since all colors of BOX switches, including the basic ones like Black and Brown, have the same stem dimensions.

[Rob27shred]

Did Novelkeys invent the BOX switches for Kailh?  If not, then that CandyKeys ad calling the switches "Kailh BOX Switches by Novelkeys" is a misnomer.  Particularly since all colors of BOX switches, including the basic ones like Black and Brown, have the same stem dimensions.

No, Kaihl came up with the box design on their own AFAIK & the first client who bought bulk amounts of BOX switches (Dare-U I believe) requested the stems be made a little thicker than normal. Which caused the stem thickness spec to spill over into all BOX switches produced is my understanding of the situation. Novelkeys just had the unfortunate luck to pick Kaihl & their BOX design as the basis for a lot of their boutique switches.

Although if you look at all of the measurement data in this, https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/41, KT thread. Pre retooled BOX switches had a rather large tolerance on both axis's thicknesses from batch to batch. Which definitely exacerbated the issue. Thankfully I only had two boards built with BOX switches when this news broke & I had SA key caps on both that were not stretched or cracked by them. However the BOX Royals on my Nightfox did stretch out a ePBT set of mine. They now fit fairly loosely on regular MX switches with a few that will pop off the switch without a piece of plastic baggie to hold them on.

[Hayte]

Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.

You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:




Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.



Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)

Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):



You can see the stress marks easier.

How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.

Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:



If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:



Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.

So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.

I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.

[Techno Trousers]

This is so painful. My personal opinion is that there is no better feeling Cherry switch than box jade. But all of these QC issues are killing me.

I think I'm going to try to Dremel down the nubs on my big stockpile of original jades and forget about all of this.

[Glod]

Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.

You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:

Show Image

Show Image

Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.

Show Image

Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)

Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):

Show Image

You can see the stress marks easier.

How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.

Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:

Show Image

If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:

Show Image

Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.

So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.

I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.

I totally believe you no doubt, this whole situation is insane. That being said the ktype does have socketing alignment  issues, I bought 2 ktypes and they both are really difficult to line up correct without bending the pins. in one case I pressed a switch in too hard and it ripped the Kailh-designed hot socket off the ktype PCB and I had to resolder. This was with the very first round of box browns. I never had issues be like with other hot socket boards except the ktype.

Honestly Kailh does some good stuff, the hot sockets, their low profile, and their non-box stock is pretty good.

I've learned to love the non box Kailh lineup. Mostly because their light switches are not made in BOX and I prefer light switches. That doesn't help others though. Switches like Hako, Royals, etc are completely unique to BOX switches and I don't think can be replicated to non-box, they are truly innovative and makes the whole situation worse.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[PoochZag]

Ok buddies, KBDfans parcel arrived today. So I have old stem box whites, new stem box whites and new stem box jades together with my sacrificial Tai Hao abs doubleshot lamb.

You can identify the new stems from the old stems by eye. Its actually quite hard to mix them up as long as you have either a magnifying glass or a phone camera with zoom:

Show Image

Show Image

Pretty obvious right? The new stem is on the left and the old stem is on the right.

Show Image

Top = old stem (the entire post is cracked all the way through, from inside to out)
Middle = new stem (stress fracture visible inside the post but no visible crack outside)
Bottom = completely new keycap (no stress fractures)

Heres another view comparing old stem (top) and new stem (bottom):

Show Image

You can see the stress marks easier.

How many times did I put the keycap on the new stem box white before it cracked? Once. It happens immediately, either when putting it on or taking it off. The key cap clearly goes on easier and comes off easier but it will still crack Tai Hao abs doubleshots apparently, which means these switches are staying the hell away from my Violet Tendencies.

Also, none of the new stem box whites I bought fit my K-Type plate and Kailh hotswap sockets correctly. I gave up at about 20ish box whites and then tried the new stem box jades. I tried about 3 or 4 new stem Jades and they don't fit properly either, so I can only assume the housing has changed shape along with the stem? I have to bend the pins up slightly to even get them in and it requires some force, which damages the socket like so:

Show Image

If you are having trouble seeing it, I have circled it in red below:

Show Image

Taking the new stem switches out is hard. I have to yank them. This damages the plastic retention clips and if you do it more than once or twice, pulling the keycap out with a keycap puller will also effortlessly pull out the switch. The old stem switches do not have this problem and I have like 200 of those, which I've been swapping in and out for months. Enough times to graze the aluminium top plate all over, which is also visible in the pictures above because steel keycap/switch remover vs aluminium plate = gg plate.

So yeah, I'm completely done with Kailh switches. Back to Zealios for me.

I have no idea what to do with all these switches. I feel like selling them on mechmarket/classified would be like some weird form of cruelty because then all of this crap becomes someone else's problem.

Nice write up.  Does the cap cracked by the old stems, and the cap stretched by the new stems, fit onto "regular" switch stems ok, or are they loose?

[Hayte]

Does the cap cracked by the old stems, and the cap stretched by the new stems, fit onto "regular" switch stems ok, or are they loose?

Depends on what you mean by loose.

I tried them on cherry mx blues and aristotles today and the cracked, stressed and new keycaps all sit snugly on the switch stem. The one with the fully cracked cruciform (damaged by old Kailh box stem) takes much less effort to pull off but thats the only difference I can tell. None are noticeably more or less wobbly than any other.

The keycaps with cracked cruciforms have a significant structural weakness now, so I cannot say if what I am observing today will still hold true when I am hotswapping caps and switches a month or two months from now. I don't even know if the old stem cracks have been getting worse over time because I only found out they were cracked relatively recently. The cracks may worsen or bits of the cruciform may splinter off. Right now, my caps are not falling off the board when I turn it upside down and shake it (and yes, I have seen those videos). I'll post an update in this thread if something like this starts happening in future.

[mdlt97]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

bOx jAdE arE mY EnDgaMe CheRrY sWiTcH

they arent even cherry switches lol, they are kailh....

[donutcat]

I'm still waiting to hear ANYTHING about retrofitting previously purchased switches. Box jades are my endgame cherry switch, and I'm sitting on 550 of them I had bought to use in modding projects before everything hit the fan.

Is anyone going to sell replacement stems only?

bOx jAdE arE mY EnDgaMe CheRrY sWiTcH

they arent even cherry switches lol, they are kailh....

Pretty easy to understand that they're Cherry MX *style* switches.....

[zslane]

They are "MX compatible".