Realforce Topre 87u vs. Filco Brown?

[phototristan]

Which board has a better feel and can anyone describe the differences between the Topre 87U and the Filco Brown Cherry for quiet yet tactile boards? I'm looking to get a board that is tactile yet quiet for those times when my Model M is too chattery.

[elbowglue]

I vote cherry browns.  However PCB mounted cherry browns are superior to filco cherry browns, as the plate gives you a really harsh landing.

I have tried Topres, the cherry brown plate mounted, various cherry brown PCB mounted.  I have finally settled on the Compaq MX11800 sawed off version as my ultimate board.  In fact I have taken the hacksaw to two of them already and I love it.  The MX11800 is a much more refined keyboard by the way if you use some foamy tape to stabilize the PCB, as it flexes a bit in it's case.

Topres feel really nice but they don't give you any rebound force, they feel like typing on clay tablets that absorb your force rather than typing on springs that bounce your finger back.

45 gram topre switches have a nice snap to them.  It's almost comparable to cherry blues in my opinion, they feel quite nice going down.  35 gram topre switches are really mushy, not all to my liking.  On the way up, cherry switches have the advantage as they will push you back up whereas topres will not.

Topres to me feel like a really good rubber dome board.  There is nothing mechanical about the switch in my opinion, the small spring in the switch hardly provides any force return, it just helps the switch "throw".  Try a really good rubber dome board, and you will know what a topre feels like.

[phototristan]

Thanks, that's good to know. Is the Cherry Brown as quiet as Topre?

Also, should I consider a Filco Cherry Black board at all?

[didjamatic]

I have owned 3 Topre boards (103u, 87u variable, 87u all 55g) and countless Cherry MX equipped boards...

The Topre is more like a woman, the Cherry is more like a sports car.  Both are fun, expensive and can get you in trouble.



EDIT - In response to your last post, Topres are quieter than Cherry Browns nearly always, they are deeper and more thuddy/thocky than Cherry browns and have a soft landing that is quiet.  The Cherry brown switch itself is very quiet, but if you type hard it will bottom out and "clack".  Blacks are heavier and smooth and gamers like them.  The only way you will know what you like is to try each for a period of time.  When debating what to try first, go for the cheaper option and you might save yourself a chunk of cash.

Here is a video of someone typing very lightly on the 2 side by side.

Here is some great video/audio of a Topre.

[phototristan]

Hmm, just based on sound, I seem to like the Topre, it sounds sorta yummy like you just want to type on it...

[Rajagra]

[fuzzybaffy]

The Rubber Dome as crappy flip-flops. Nice.

[itlnstln]

What elbowglue said.  I swap out the HHKB and G80-1863 quite a bit.  The Cherrys are quite a bit like a sports car.  They're light and springy, and they give the best typing experience, IMO (blues are good as well).  Topres are pretty smooth and the keyboards that use them tend to be some of the best made on the market.  Niether the Cherry-made 'boards I have nor the Filcos I owned in the past come close to my HHKB and 23U in terms of quality.  Topres don't really excite me much, though, in terms of typing, but I really like the HHKB's layout, so I tend to break it out from time-to-time, especially when using my laptop.  That said, I don't think I would spend the money on and 87U or a 103U as the switch just isn't good enough by itself to warrant spending that much cash on a regular layout, IMO.  The way I see it, if you go Topre, go HHKB; the layout makes it worth it.

[didjamatic]

Unless of course you're like me or and your brain is hard-wired for standard layouts.  There are a lot of people on this forum that love the layout but to me, the HHKB is excellent for programmers and that's where it's usefulness ends.  I'm not a coder I'm a systems admin and part-time ninja.  If I used that layout I would be an unhappy hacking keyboard user because I would be dry heaving.  

So for me personally when it comes to Topre, the 87u or 103u are the bees knees.

No HHKB users were harmed in the posting of this opinion.  Viewer discretion is advised.

[itlnstln]

Unless of course you're like me or and your brain is hard-wired for standard layouts.  There are a lot of people on this forum that love the layout but to me, the HHKB is excellent for programmers and that's where it's usefulness ends.  I'm not a coder I'm a systems admin and part-time ninja.  If I used that layout I would be an unhappy hacking keyboard user because I would be dry heaving.

I couldn't disagree more (no offense).  I am the ultimate standard-layout guy.  I wouldn't even give up my numpad for a Filco tenkeyless or Topre 87U.  That said, there is something ridiculously efficient about the HHKB layout.  It took about a day to get used to, but after that, it was second-nature.  I'm not a programmer, so I don't reap any benefit there, either.  XsPhat, a writer, loved his HHKB, too.  I think what makes it different than other alternate-layout 'boards is that it doesn't try to be some type of "hybrid" layout that's only a little different than a regular 'board.  Those layouts tend to be annoying.  The HHKB is just flat-out different, so there is a complete change from a regular 'board.  I can switch back and forth to regular layouts without a problem, because the muscle memory really doesn't conflict.  To an extent, I tend to get annoyed with regular layouts now, because everything feels so far away.

[Rajagra]

The Cherrys are quite a bit like a sports car.  They're light and springy, and they give the best typing experience, IMO

That's fair enough as long as you mean that as a description of the feel, rather than the performance.

When we discussed gold keycaps in another thread the math showed that even hefty 10g keycaps would return up in around 14ms when released. Normal plastic keys take only 2ms. (With 55g springs.)

You have to conclude that normal sprung keyswitches use springs that are far stronger than necessary for their operation. That means there is quite a lot of stored energy that can turn into noise.

Topres use rubber domes rather than springs, so the action will be damped. But they don't move that much slower. The keycaps still keep up with your fingers as you raise them, so there is no difference in performance. Maybe as they wear out they can slow down? But I haven't heard any complaints of that problem.

I like both. Cherry browns are like keys floating on air. Topres are like massaging a tray full of tiny stress relief balls.

[itlnstln]

I don't disagree that Topres spring back fast enough, but the Cherrys' resistance increases as they are pressed down. Because of this, they "push back" with more force than the Topres, thus returning more energy on the upstroke.  In other words, I feel like I have to actively lift my fingers after pressing a Topre switch down whereas with the Cherrys, I just stop pressing down, and the springs pushes my fingers back up. One other way to put it: Topres have just enough upward force to push the cap back up where Cherrys can push the cap and my fingers up.

[kriminal]

I vote cherry browns.  However PCB mounted cherry browns are superior to filco cherry browns, as the plate gives you a really harsh landing.

QUOTE]

that quote is quite subjective imho, as i have a PCB mounted brown cherry keyboard and the plate mounted filco, i prefer the filco..

[itlnstln]

I think pretty much anything expressed here on Geekhack is subjective.

I just upgraded the USB cable on my HHKB with a 1.5', 24 AWG cable with gold-plated connectors and a ferrite.  My WPM has increased 25%.  Characters are getting to the computer faster than ever before.  Well not really, but here are the cables I got (one permanently attached to the PC, and the other to travel with).  Together, they cost less than $3 shipped, and I got them in 2 days.

[itlnstln]

Cherry Corp keyboards are ugly.

That's not subjective.

The Cherry fanboy agrees.  Filcos and Topres are pretty.  I consider Cherrys to be the industrial, no-nonsense 'board meant for work.  Sort of like buying an F-150 over whatever-the-Lincoln-version-is.  Either way, they both get the job done.

[elbowglue]

that quote is quite subjective imho, as i have a PCB mounted brown cherry keyboard and the plate mounted filco, i prefer the filco..

Yeah - some people may like plate mounted cherry brown switches more... they are a little more precise, there is zero keyboard flex in the filco cherry browns.  Cherry browns have a way of amplifying any minimal keyboard flex, making them really annoying if the PCB that they are mounted on moves away from you when you type.

[kriminal]

The Cherry fanboy agrees.  Filcos and Topres are pretty.  I consider Cherrys to be the industrial, no-nonsense 'board meant for work.  Sort of like buying an F-150 over whatever-the-Lincoln-version-is.  Either way, they both get the job done.

LOL true, when i got my cherry keyboard from didj i said "eeewww!" and quickly swapped out its double shot keys with my filco.

[phototristan]

Where can one buy a non Filco Cherry?

[elbowglue]

If you find yourself in the east bay area at some point I have an extra sawed off compaq mx11800 I'm not using, I'm in danville - send me a PM you can try it out or buy it from me or something.

Heres some ideas:
http://www.pcliquidations.com/item.asp?id=6321&referid=160164167166161

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=(11800,%20mx11800,%20186591,%20185152)%20(compaq)&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_okw=(11800,%20mx11800,%20186591,%20185152)%20(compaq)&_oexkw=&_udlo=&_udhi=&_ftrt=901&_ftrv=1&_sabdlo=&_sabdhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=200&_fpos=Zip%20code&_fsct=&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_trksid=m194
http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=409&title=fs-75-nib-ricercar-spos-g86-62410-blessed-by-ricercar

http://cgi.ebay.com/Cherry-retail-pos-keyboard-gently-used-ccard-swipe-/260459168906?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ca493848a#ht_528wt_940
(this one probably (does not have cherry browns), looks to have double shots) EDIT: This one is an G81-3000 MY8000 board, not cherry browns I think

http://www.datacal.com/p-1254-cherry-g80-3000-keyboard-with-brown-switches.aspx

[clickclack]

Thanks, that's good to know. Is the Cherry Brown as quiet as Topre?

Also, should I consider a Filco Cherry Black board at all?

The topre is a little bit more quiet.
bottoming out- topre is a little bit more quiet
rebound- they are both a little bit louder
I personally can type without bottoming out much easier on the cherry brown board, making that one more quiet when I use it.

As far as the cherry blacks go, I absolutely love them too! I find that it's very easy to NOT bottom out on them and I also type a bit faster with them as well.
Cherry blacks are more quiet than browns, I would say about the same as a topre in MY typing style. When I don't bottom out the cherry blacks they are indeed quieter than the topre for me.

I love em all though for different reasons (such a keyboard ****!)
Well I hope some of that helped...=)

[phototristan]

Thanks for the feedback so far. Well folks, if you could only buy one, which one would you buy?

[ch_123]

Definitely. The best Alps keyswitch is mediocre. And that's before we get into the whole arcane mastery of what those switches are...

[ch_123]

Im thinking of hacking one of my Dolch keyboards to have Brown switches...

[phototristan]

If I could only buy one I'd still buy both.

I'm buying a condo. Can't spend like I used to...

[ch_123]

I'd go for the Topre. If you already have a Cherry keyboard, you might as well try something quite different to what you already have.

[phototristan]

I'd go for the Topre. If you already have a Cherry keyboard, you might as well try something quite different to what you already have.

I had a Cherry Blue Filco but sold it since I like the Model M Space Saver much more.

I'm leaning towards the Topre, but what has a better feel for all day typing? Filco Cherry Brown or Topre 55g or Topre variable weighted?

I think I'm getting close, just need a bit more persuading...

[ricercar]

This is known as the "Nordstrom's decision making method".

In Silicon Valley we have the "Fryes Loan." Fryses electronics offer a 30-day money back on all purchases, so we buy things to check them out, and return them within 30 days.

[phototristan]

Does Fry's sell these keyboards though? Elitekeyboards accepts returns for defect exchanges only...

[Mental Hobbit]

That's the law in the Netherlands. Except it's 14 days.

Same in Germany. It's based on an EU guideline, so all EU states should have similar laws.

I remember how all internet merchants whined this would kill them when it became law in 2002. Actually the opposite happened: The unprecedented level of consumer safety gave internet sales a giant boost.

[Mental Hobbit]

Yes, some do exploit that and order tons of stuff they have no intention to keep. But apparently the majority of honest customers make more than up for that.

[wellington1869]

Yes, some do exploit that and order tons of stuff they have no intention to keep. But apparently the majority of honest customers make more than up for that.

there are also those who try it and like it and keep it and would never have tried it if they didnt have the option of returning it if they didnt like it.

[phototristan]

So should I get Topre 55g or variable? I'm leaning towards 55g since I generally don't like keys that are easily depressed. Even the Filco Blue Cherry I had was too easy to press for me actually.

[wellington1869]

So should I get Topre 55g or variable? I'm leaning towards 55g since I generally don't like keys that are easily depressed. Even the Filco Blue Cherry I had was too easy to press for me actually.

hard to say. ideally you should try one out before you buy. anyone in your area have one?

I havent tried 55g, tho at least one person on the site tried it and regretted it. On the other hand, variable may be too light (i myself found the keys too easy to depress even with fingers in the home position, with accidental keystrokes just from resting my fingers). But then i'm a key masher so take it with a grain of salt. Others mentioned that too though.

[phototristan]

The Blue Cherry is 50g.  Sounds like you'd like the 55g better.

Before you buy it though, if all you need is a quieter keyboard for rare late night computing I'd just get a cheap rubber dome.

Condos in SF are expensive.

I might actually use it more often though , such as when I want to play music without headphones and still hear the music.

Sounds like I should bit the bullet and get the Topre 55G. Wow, I have to pay CA sales tax too and it will be close to $300.!

[wellington1869]

Topre 55G. Wow, I have to pay CA sales tax too and it will be close to $300.!

will be interested in what you think of it. sounds like it fits what you're looking for though.

[phototristan]

Yeah, while I love the Model M feel and sound, I'm wondering if it will be more enjoyable to still be able to type just as much and as hard, but hear my podcasts and music through my speakers well while I work (without headphones).

I'll give the Topre a try and see.

[wellington1869]

Yeah, while I love the Model M feel and sound, I'm wondering if it will be more enjoyable to still be able to type just as much and as hard, but hear my podcasts and music through my speakers well while I work (without headphones).

I'll give the Topre a try and see.

well it might fit the bill, but its very diff from M experience.
You could of course get a relatively silent M by slathering silicon grease on the springs (or using the floss/foam method) as talked about in the mods section. Wont be silent as a topre but would be fairly silent.

[phototristan]

I received the Realforce 87U 55G today and so far, I really like it! It doesn't feel as mushy as most rubber dome boards (which is what I was afraid of) and actually has a tactile feel yet sounds quiet. I think the 55G all the way around is going to work nice for me.

Coming from a Model M (Space Saver), I'm actually finding the quietness a welcomed change. I can hear my audio better now while typing. This just may turn into my new favorite board! Except for the fact that the keys will likely get shiny over time and I hate that. I should have maybe gotten a white/beige one but couldn't find one.

Nitpicks:

-It's true you can't really read the lettering on the keys very well unless you have a bright light on in the room or good natural light.

-On OSX, the stock keyboard preference pane does not work on this keyboard to assign the different keys (ALT, Windows key, etc) appropriately.  You need to download third party software. I'm using DoubleCommand and it's working well so far. But it's perplexing that the built in driver can indeed modify those keys on other boards such as Filco and Model Ms, but not on the Realforce...

EDIT -I found out that you don't need a third party driver under OSX if you assign the caps lock key to 'option'. For some odd reason, the Realforce cannot have the ALT key and the Windows key both assigned using the OSX keyboard preference pane (on all other keyboards I've tried this works fine), it's one or the other. So, I have ALT assigned to Command and CAPS Lock assigned to Option. The Control key remains Control.

-I have not been successful getting the QWERTY numpad to work at all.

[phototristan]

I thought so at first, but the DIP switches only turn on/off the Context menu key and swap the caps lock with the control and enable the numeric keypad.

Glad you're liking it.  Don't have OSX but it may be as simple as a DIP switch setting (refer to the box - don't lose that box because there's no handy dandy DIP switch sticker on the back).

[Rajagra]

The PC's NumLock status tells the Realforce when to act as numeric keys.
Macs don't use NumLock. Is that right? So no way to activate the embedded numeric pad.

[phototristan]

The PC's NumLock status tells the Realforce when to act as numeric keys.
Macs don't use NumLock. Is that right? So no way to activate the embedded numeric pad.

I think that's correct. Oh well. The QWERTY numpad works on the Model M Space Saver on Mac a-okay. That's probably because that board does it all internally within the board itself.

[phototristan]

Well, going back to the Model M, I can say I generally enjoy typing on the Model M more although the Realforce is quite usable and also fun to type on. It does feel like a Mercedes or something and it's really quite relaxing to use.  Great board!

My default will remain the Model M though! I can easily hot swap between the two on a whim.

[kishy]

My default will remain the Model M though!

For great justice!

[phototristan]

I'm really liking the sturdy feel of the Realforce and I feel like I can type for longer on it without fatigue (then the Model M). It's also nice and low profile as it doesn't sit up too high off the desk.

[clickclack]

Congrats on the 87u all 55g board! =)
It feels great, and I have noticed that I make fewer mistakes on it than most other boards. It's a darn classy looking board too!

I hope you find a nice and suitable work around for the apple compatible hiccups.

[LordGurciullo]

As you continue to type and type on it you will fall even further in love. It screams elegance. it is the absolute dream for someone who types a lot and has even the slightest finger pain.. I love my topre and am angry I got mine last ... would have made some of the other boards I bought a non issue - but I love all my boards.

[phototristan]

As you continue to type and type on it you will fall even further in love. It screams elegance. it is the absolute dream for someone who types a lot and has even the slightest finger pain.. I love my topre and am angry I got mine last ... would have made some of the other boards I bought a non issue - but I love all my boards.

Yes, I'm liking it quite a lot. I also feel that 55g version is perfect for me. The Model M is about 70g which can at times feel a bit too hard to press,  while the Blue Cherry I had before and thought was a bit too light was 45g.

[phototristan]

So I've had the Realforce for a few weeks now and still really like it. I'm actually liking it more than my Model M now believe it or not. I can type faster on it than I can on the Model M.

My only complaint is that I cannot see the number keys well at all. Are there keycaps that I could buy with brighter numbers? The letters are fine dim because I can touch type those. I'm just not good touch typing the number row at all for some reason.

[washuai]

It is the number row, you can count, until you learn it.  You'll learn the number row eventually without a guide.  Having it visible, will just continue to atrophy your skills.  The numbers I can count, though I admit, the symbols are coming along even slower.  I'm sure if I spent a little time with some typing exercises directed to those areas, I'd stop making mistakes, but I don't mind learning the hard way.

[ricercar]

If you really want to learn without eyes, put wrong key caps on the keys. Inaccurate random key caps teaches one to stop viewing keys fast.