Looking for my ideal switch (quieter heavier mx blues) [updated]

[Telstar]

Long story short, I had to pension my model M due to ps2 compatibility issues, space and looks (in this order).
A few years ago (yes, years) I tried a cherry mx tryout pack and my favourite switches were the blues, with browns as second. O-rings felt bad anywhere. I think MX grey were NOT part of the set. And there weren't so many different tactile switches as there are now, probably over 50 different types.

What I like: strong tactile feedback, not too soft keys, moderate noise. Cherry mx blue have a metallic sharp sound that is really awful and I cannot stand them, but the feeling is the best. The buckling springs had perfect force but I got used to them. I have looked at charts and some reviews. Basically I want the feedback of the mx blues without most of the sound. A little MORE force is welcome, but not as much as the greens. Or looking at the other side (where there are more offerings) more tactile and heavier browns, with less WOBBLE.
Topre I think are too light for me but maybe the feedback is good. I absolutely hate the feel of membrane switches.

On my list now are:
- Matias quietclick
- Razer Purple (opto-mechanical)
- Zealios purple V2 (67 or 78g?)
- Hako Royal Clear
- Box Royal
- ALPS (which ones?) available anywhere?
- Cherry MX grey

Scrapped:
- Logitech GX blue, Logitech Romer-G tactile (not enough tactile for me)
- Cherry MX brown and most chinese clones
- Roccat Titan
What other options are out there?

IMPORTANT: I need ISO layout, with numpad, and keycaps that can be bought in Italian layout (I need to look for the place of some special characters). No decal and text that disappear after one month. White led or RGB welcome but not mandatory. Keys can be all black or all white, no silly color mixes.

In the end I think I'll buy a Corsair k70 SE silver/white and desolder the MX clears and replace them with something else… but need to choose what first. Could I trasplant matias switches in there? are the 2 power pins on the bottom compatible?

[Aelon]

For clicky Romer-G switches of Logitech, I recommend reading my post in this G513 review. They are basically the same switch and keycap:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98946.0

And I would completely also try to avoid Cherry switches (in fact most traditional metal contact type switches) because they develop chatter very easily. But it's your call of course. And I think still the most reliable traditional switch which chatters least is buckling spring design.

[Polymer]

They don't develop chatter easily...But easier than say, Topre which can't develop chatter.

[Telstar]

For clicky Romer-G switches of Logitech, I recommend reading my post in this G513 review. They are basically the same switch and keycap:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98946.0

And I would completely also try to avoid Cherry switches (in fact most traditional metal contact type switches) because they develop chatter very easily. But it's your call of course. And I think still the most reliable traditional switch which chatters least is buckling spring design.

I'll check it now, thanks. Checked, I see the quality issues, and being the GX blue switches just Kailh, I could get another version of those. Pity for the good lighting, but I know that the romer-G provides too little feedback for me as i want MORE than the MX browns, not less.

What about the latest version of blues made for Razer with the "stabilizers"? The sound is way better than MX blues to my ears.

Matias and Topre will be hard to try or get with an easy return unfortunately.

BTW my model M isn't going anywhere and it MAY work with a ps2 to usb adapter. I do not know what chatter "means", but I dont remember significant changes in 15 years of use. I just feel trying something new this spring cause I really like the feedback of the blues.

[Aelon]

For clicky Romer-G switches of Logitech, I recommend reading my post in this G513 review. They are basically the same switch and keycap:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=98946.0

And I would completely also try to avoid Cherry switches (in fact most traditional metal contact type switches) because they develop chatter very easily. But it's your call of course. And I think still the most reliable traditional switch which chatters least is buckling spring design.

I'll check it now, thanks. Checked, I see the quality issues, and being the GX blue switches just Kailh, I could get another version of those. Pity for the good lighting, but I know that the romer-G provides too little feedback for me as i want MORE than the MX browns, not less.

What about the latest version of blues made for Razer with the "stabilizers"? The sound is way better than MX blues to my ears.

Matias and Topre will be hard to try or get with an easy return unfortunately.

BTW my model M isn't going anywhere and it MAY work with a ps2 to usb adapter. I do not know what chatter "means", but I dont remember significant changes in 15 years of use. I just feel trying something new this spring cause I really like the feedback of the blues.

"chatter" means keyboard outputs double or multiple characters even tough you press the key once.
For Example; you press "b" once but since the "b" key is defective, the keyboard outputs "bb"...Hence "chatters". This doesn't always happen by the way. It begins happening occasionally, intermittently and later on the situation worsens and becomes more frequent in time. You can still somehow tame this behavior from the software side but the issue may also evolve into keys not registering at all, which may leave you frustrated and feeling betrayed because you payed so much money to mechanical keyboards, but in year 2019 they still can't be as reliable as a cheap $15 membrane/rubber dome keyboard in this regard.
Almost all traditional metal contact switches are prone to this chatter issue. Some are more reliable than the others but the issue persists as an inherent thing whenever there is a metal-to-metal contact.

And as you already mentioned about Razer, I was going to recommend you the opto-mechanical switched Razer Huntsman series keyboards. These have new Razer Purple switches. Those switches actuate by contactless optical sensors, therefore they are also immune to chatter like Topre keyboards. Besides, by having those Purple switches, you get best of both worlds: The reliability of contactless optical sensors and the mechanical clicky feel of a mechanical keyboard. (Altough still since it is a very new technology it may also fail in some other regard and prove unreliable in the future. Time will tell)

I have the Razer Huntsman by the way. It has thin brittle laser ablated ABS keycaps. But other than that it's switches are lighter to press, less scratchy, less wobbly, have a more satisfying "crispier" sound and also have a more satisying "clack" when you bottom out the keys. Overall I can say that it is more delightful experience to type on these new Razer Purple switches than the scratchy Cherry MX Blues.
But unfortunately you wanted to have quiet and heavier blues.

Some more about Razer Huntsman and blues anyway:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=99612.0

[Telstar]

But unfortunately you wanted to have quiet and heavier blues.

Yes
I'm keeping these Gateron browns so far, at least I'm covered 26 months by Amazon warranty.
I'll do more research on Razer switches later, thanks. I was thinking of their greens that seemed quieter than mx blues, while the purples are indeed louder.

[Sintpinty]

Yes, you can make a multi-switch keyboard, which i'd highly reccomend.

[Telstar]

Yes, you can make a multi-switch keyboard, which i'd highly reccomend.

I'd like to use corsair k70 SE as base because I love the brushed aluminum finish, it's available in ISO UK layout and the media keys seem well thought too.

[Telstar]

First post updated: added zealios and royal switches. I think I need to get myself a switcher tester board with a few places.
How they compare to MX blues?

[Telstar]

Finished my researches, I ordered a 25 keys try pad from Novelkeys with the following switches (no Matias or Alps in the options, so I will have to get em somewhere else):

Cherry Blue,Cherry Clear,Cherry White,Kailh Gold,Kailh Bronze,Kailh Light Green,Kailh BOX Burnt Orange,Kailh BOX Pale Blue,Kailh Plum,Kailh Sage,Kailh BOX Navy,Kailh BOX Jade,NovelKeys BOX Royal,Hako Royal Clear,Hako Royal True,IC Hako Clear,IC Halo Clear,Gateron Brown,Gateron Blue,Outemu Teal,Outemu Sky 68g,Zealio V2 78g,Zilent V2 78g,MOD-M Tactile,MOD-H Tactile.

Needed MX blue and Gateron Brown as reference.

I also decided to use the Glorious MMK barebone keyboard TKL (available in ISO layout thanks GOD) for further tests with more switches, as they don't need to be soldered. I will eventually get a good PBT keycaps set once I'm done with testing.

[Peripheral Prophet]

You can find alps boards on ebay, but its slim pickins these days if you want a clean board.. If you want blue alps, be prepared to spend upwards of 500-1000 bucks for a decent board, or you just have to get really lucky.

Alps I dont think would meet the requirement for sound, they are definitely going to be loud, but just in a really good way.

You likely wouldnt want white alps, they are super loud and a bit heavier than what you are looking for I fear..  You could click mod a board with black alps, they are a bit quieter than the other alps and you should be able to find a keyboard with black alps that you can buy NOS.... relatively quickly, I know for a fact there are a few on ebay right now.

Right now there are a few options on ebay for white/black/salmon/blue alps, but they are all pretty much up there in price..




Hope that helps, if I was absolutely going to build a clicky keyboard, I would seriously devote some time to Novelkeys box switches and thick clicks..

Based on everything Im hearing from you, Kailh box navys or jades, depending on the noise level, sound like a good fit, much better than blues and the click they make is actually pretty nice to hear... 

I really cant stand cherry switches, they need to up their game and start listening to the community.. Blues suck, Browns really suck, Reds suck.. Speed switches, silent switches, all suck..  Its like each switch in the lineup is missing something..  Kinda like topre, its just not a thrilling experience when typing, hard to explain and of course this is all my opinion...

[Telstar]

A clicky that sounds decent and not high pitched like the mx blue could work for me in the end. That is why I included most clicky switches in the testing board. I think I would like the sound of the jades and hopefully they are not too light.
Probably I will get 20 pieces of the 2-3 favourite switches after this round of testing to put into the GMMK.

As for Alps or other vintage keyboards I'm not inclined to spend 300+ unless I know it will be my new daily driver.
What do you think of alps clones (XM white) that I found for sale as spares?

[Telstar]

Time to update my topic
Yesterday I finally got my 25 switches custom tester and did my tryouts. At the end of the day, I ordered 5 more to complete the testing, but here is my opinion on the 6 ones I liked the most (4 clicky and 4 tactiles).
I took notes on some others as well, but I'm not going to post everything.

First of all the Gateron brown that i took as reference, as I have on one keyboard I own did fare much better than I thought - it's definitely the best brown currently on the market. Of course, it is not tactile enough for me and is a bit light, but i won't esitate to recommend one commercial board with it as general purpose.

CLICKIES
Test on the tester, damped with memory foam:
*1 box jade: good feedback and sound
*2 Kailh Gold: clicky good, awesome short travel feel, sounds more clack than click
*3 Kailh Light Green: very very nice
*4 Kailh Bronze: sounds very clicky, bottom tactility is worse than Light green, sound too

Retest of them on the GMMK (without any modification to improve the hollow sound):
*1 Box Jade: weight a little heavy but has nice feedback, sound double click but pleasant
*2 Kailh Gold: weight and feel a little light, sound: loud clacky and hollow (keyboard fault)
*3 Kailh Bronze: bit too heavy, loud almost as gold and more metallic (with double click due to the clickbar)
Kailh Light Green: weight and feel bit heavier than gold, sound less loud but high pitch (discarded)

Notes: Will test the pinks in comparison ASAP. No other clicky switches are worth trying, they all sound terrible. Will try some form of dampening, probably Zeal or a foam pad. The oring didn't work for me on the MX blues but maybe can help here, on the clickbars especially.

TACTILES
Test on the tester, damped with memory foam:
*1 Zealio V2 78g: a little heavy but very nice feedback --- need to try 67g
*2 Kailh Box Royal: very nice but a little heavy
*3 Kailh Box Burnt Orange: closest to browns, more tactile and smooth
*4 IC Halo Clear: heavy, but pleasant and very snappy

Retest on the undamped GMMK (all with the same keycaps):
*1 Box Royal: very good, but tactile feel is DIFFERENT than Zealio V2 78g (re-evaluated: at this weight is perfect). Keycaps matter a lot.
*2 Zealio v2 78g: very, very good, but a little heavy (waiting for 67g)
*3 IC Halo Clear: very good, excellent feedback but heavy (waiting for violet) -> changed spring to 60g (from mx blues and it's too light and it cant bottom up. Need to find a 70g spring)
Box Burnt Orange: good weight but lacks in sound and tactility (discarded)

Notes: I will receive the following tactile switches to complete my tryouts: Zealio V2 67g, 65g and 62g, Hako Violet, KBDfans T1, and a Holy panda.

In conclusion, some misc thoughts:
1) Official weight specs are way off on many switches, in either way.
2) Clickbar switches are the best clicky ones can currently get. The only decent ones basically.
3) Box stems are overrated. The wobble doesn't much depend on that.
4) Original Halo Clear is an awesome tactile switch, if you can stand the weight. An excellent value at current Drop price. Hako are total crap instead, IC ruined a good switch giving it a silly response curve adding useless boxes. They should have made lighter ones instead. Probably it would have prevented the holy panda movement from starting. And it would have competed with the best tactile switches which IMO are the Zealios V2.

[Telstar]

THIRD TEST 12/04 (Tactiles only)
with ABS crap caps (no other caps yet) on the GMMK:



THIRD TEST 12/04 (Tactiles) with ABS crap caps (no other caps yet):
4*Box Royal (retest): still excellent, different sound than Zealios, spring is noisy.
1*Zealio V2 67g: best zealio, perfect weight, good feedback (less than 78g)
-Zealio V2 65g: less tactile than 67g, very, very good but the 67g is just better.
3*Zealio V2 62g: smoother than 65g but bit too light but very tactile esp. bottoming out.
-Zealio v2 78g (retest): excellent feedback but too heavy.
-Hako Violet: light, but pleasant, butter smooth, bump comes too late feels shorter travel (no).
-KBDfans T1: weight similar to zealios 62g, horrible housing wobble, but good feedback (not worth the modding hassle).
-Novelias: particular clacky bump, not smooth, feels dirty and heavy (no).
2*Halo 72g (spring modded): Extremely good, louder than the others (and gritty), best bottom out feedback. Probably needs lubing.
-Halo 68g (spring modded): Similar to the heavier brethren but not as smooth.
-Halo 65g (spring modded): not tested because the 68g is not super-stable in bottoming up, and I prefer around 70g weight.

So, I guess I have a new favorite tactile switch and a serious contender

[Telstar]

Still undecided between 67g and 62g zealios with which to build the gmmk.
I got hold of a Wooting one today and I'm testing it. The clicky version of their flaretech switch is better than blues in both feel and sound. A little light for my tastes, but I do way less mistakes than with gat browns, which means that is pretty good. I'm keeping this to get used to TKL and see which mods I would like to see for a custom layout that I'll eventually do

NB: due to the electrical connections these switches are not compatible with any other board, nor standard mx switches would fit the Wooting. They can be put (with lot of force) on plates for feel/sound testing though.

[epod]

Thanks for the testing/reviews!

I am in the same/similar boat - I like the (relative) quiet of browns but there's not much feeling; I like the feel of my cheapie Outemu blues (which are heavier than cherries I believe and reckon could still be heavier before my fingers start to grow fatigued) but dislike the sound, especially since I like to work into the evening when others go to sleep.

How close do you feel are Halo Clears to the Zealios? And Box Royals? If Zealios didn't exist or costed like, $50 per switch, would you be happy with the Halo Clears (or Box Royals)? Did modding the Halos make a hugely positive difference?

I was about to try order same/similar tester as you but NK is all sold out - ordered a GMMK as well and wondering anyone knows if/where can get order singles or doubles of these switches without the tester anywhere (zealpc has 10-packs for example, plus $10 shipping - so am discouraged of dropping $20 to just test one switch)..

[Maledicted]

I don't know about the K70 SE, since I prefer the aesthetics of the original K70 and K65, but disassembly and reassembly of these boards can be annoying. Fiddly little ribbon cables, little plastic bits that just fall out, etc. The aluminum chassis also contributes significantly to ping on particularly reverberant switches. I have a K65 with box navies, and it pings like hell, which I actually find entertaining.

Nice input. Almost makes me want to try some of the more exotic switches like Zelios, just to see how good modern tactiles can be, since most of them seem to be trash. I'll always stick with clickies though myself, for the most part. Glad to hear you liked those box thick clicks.

Also, I may be wrong, but one of the most touted features of box switches is their IP56 rating to help prevent the ingress of gunk of all kinds into the housing. I think that's the focus of the design, and one that I very much appreciate since I like to be able to just use something forever and not have to mess with it.