Best switches for typing all day (as compared to MS 4000)

[frodeflintstone]

Hello all!

I am having a hard time finding relevant posts using the search feature which will guide me on my new keyboard purchase.  I am a heavy keyboard user (I mean heavy as in I type all day, not that I type with a lot of force), so words like heavy, frequent, often, lots, etc. don't seem to give me the results I am hoping for.  

I have been punishing myself with a microsoft 4000 (with a health warning on the bottom about too much use).  I find that the keys give a lot of resistance and on days where I really type a lot (novel writing + emails), my fingers are a bit sore at the end of the day.  I am a pretty fast typist (never measured) and I would say that I am a "precision typist" in that I think I have a fair amount of motor control and would be able to avoid bottoming out the keys unless they were really soft.

Like most, I don't have a way to test the various switches to see what I might like or not.  I am also a bit worried about the noise, but I can deal with it if it will mean comfortable typing.  I have pretty much settled on the browns since they require less force to push down.

So, for someone who types all day long (and frequently into the night), which switch is best?  I don't do any gaming.  Until this post, I had settled on either the filco or ducky w/ browns.  The filcos (Majestouch-2, Tenkeyless) are now sold out on amazon, so I was leaning towards the ducky DK1087-B or DK9000G2-B.

I am guessing that any of the mechanical switch keyboards will be better than the MS 4000 (although I do love the ergo design), but does anyone have any comments?


Thank you every one in advance!

FF

[noodles256]

topre

[frodeflintstone]

So say one's budget was in the $100-$150 range.  It looks like the topre boards are in the $245-$345 range.  I may have to work up to that.  

I guess my next question is if a keyboard with the browns will give any relief over what I have now (MS 4000).  The keys on this keyboard feel difficult to press and seem like they have a lot of resistance.

[False_Dmitry_II]

There was a sticker on this space invader board that said something in the realm of "the use of any computer keyboard/input device is a health risk". So I think that's fairly common.

I suppose the only real question, is if you are restricting to new things only or if they can be used. Because it could be that what is tiring you is the hitting the bottom of every keypress. Almost no mechanicals require this, so it may not even be activation force that is bothering you.

What do you mean by the noise worries you?

[frodeflintstone]

I guess I am not too worried about the noise.  I have seen a lot of posts where others mention this (I work in an office... my cube is next to my bosses... etc.).  I don't really have this situation, but I understand that some keys (blues) are louder due to the clicking.  I guess I am more concerned about a the effort to push the switch down.  I saw that the topre ones have distributed sensitivity, so that sounded really nice, just a bit out of my budget.  

I don't really have a problem with used, but I am not keen to wait too long.  I would buy something tonight if I knew what to get.

[ZeroGraVT]

If you're going to type all day you might want to take a look at the kinesis contour though it's a bit over your budget.

[Tony]

Filco Brown switches with Ninja keycaps, as mine.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Well if I'm right about it really just being bottoming out, then that opens nearly every one of them. Including "heavy" ones like buckling springs. Personally those variable weighted ones in general would drive me up a wall, because I don't always hit every key with the same finger. Especially when I move my hand over to wasd.

IMO I'd get a model m to start off. It's just about the loudest most tactile one there is. It can also be had for about $30 on ebay (and can be used as a club). Then if you don't like it, you can decide what you want less of and go from there. Wouldn't be hard to sell it back either if you wanted to.

[frodeflintstone]

A model M from ebay is a great idea, but I work on a laptop (external monitor) that has no ps2 port.  So I am stuck with USB.  

At this point I am leaning towards the ducky DK1087 with brown (the Filco isn't available now - at least I couldn't find it).  

That kinesis contour is a strange looking machine!

[lucky777]

ps/2 to usb adapters are like 75 cents on ebay...

Anyways I think blues, reds, topres and browns are nice to type on. I haven't tried a model M (or I have but it was at least 2 decades ago, so I wouldn't remember), but I hear they're somewhat like White Alps and those take too much force to use (imo).

[mcc]

Hi,

I type all day due to my profession. I would suggest a IBM MODEL M. I typed on """keyboards""" with bad rubber domes...its like typeing on butter....
The audible and tactile feedback of the IBM Model M make typeing fast and correct easy.
So many people who like this keyboard (google for "The one true keyboard" cannot be /THAT/ wrong. ))
And to repeat one last argument: They are build to last (nearly) for ever.


Only my two cents, your currency may vary

Best regards,
mcc

[shrap]

In my experience, the ergo board's benefits are more important than any switch type. But there are very few mechanical ergo boards, the ergo subforum covers them on a regular basis.

Do you think you can switch back to a conventional layout? If so, I'd just go buy whatever's on the classifieds here, you can't lose a lot of money buying a used board and then reselling it virtually at the same price if it doesn't work out for you.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I wouldn't say usb adapters are that cheap, but they are only about $10.

Even then, if you have to have it native, you could get a new usb unicomp, but that'd be about $80.

[Arcanius]

You could go for a Leopold with Browns, they're light and very nice to type on! A Model M will be heavier, and although you may think it won't be a problem, but the lightness of browns may be an additional help!

[sordna]

I type all day too, for me the choice was clear: cherry MX red switches.
I use a very ergonomic board, but I like red switches on flat boards also. It's a lot of fun typing on an IBM, I have one of those too, but it's tiring by the end of the day.

[lucky777]

I got 2 USB adapters for .50 each :S. They seem to work fine so far. Maybe I got lucky haha.

[SmallFry]

Go take a look at the Pokers, you can get them cheap and the resale is nice if you don't like it. Also ps/2 is fine with a bluecube which can be internalized easily via how ripster did it. I don't have links as my iPod can't browse the forum and copy links (someone can help there). There is a poker group buy ending soon, otherwise the classifieds are a fine place to look

[frodeflintstone]

Wow!  thank you to everyone for all your suggestions!

a ps2 / usb adapter (duh!) - I may just pick up one of the model M boards to try.  I actually have an old sony vaio laptop that I type on often and I actually like it quite a bit.  The key travel of the chicklet keyboard is not great and my fingers don't hurt from using it.  I don't know what kind of switches it has, but i think the main thing for me is that it does not take very much effort to push the keys down.  This Microsoft one... oh man... ouch!

Again, thank you all very much

[Lanx]

I'm gonna qualify myself by saying, i built this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10510
and i'm gonna finish this
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments

so I basically love the ergonomics of the ms ergo4k, there are a few of us who are into ergonomic and mechanical, basically because, WE HAVE to.

Your in a bind, do you like the msergo4k because of the ergonomics? the split design? the inward slope? the nice wrist wrest? the decline? if you answered 50/50 to any of these, then i dont' know what to say, but you're stuck trying to find an ergonomic mechanical board.

as far as the msergo4k hurt? yea i believe if i remember the force to activate the switch was between maybe 60-90? i'm not too sure but it was "tough" do you want a mechanical board because the inherent ergonomics associated with the switches? such as low force? then i'm just gonna say splurge on a Kinesis and learn how to use it (it works differently).

i TRIED going to a regular 104 key, mechanical keyboard from the msergo 4k, i really did, for weeks, then it hit me, the switches were good, but the ergonomics SUCKED... i actually had to use the ms ergo 4k again, and that's ultimately when i decided i need to mod my own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown.

i'm not saying make you're own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown, i doubt anyone will, but i'm saying if you are used to "ergonomic" keyboard, and you want mechnical switches... just save yourself the trouble, research and opinions of others who DO NOT care for ergonomic keyboards and just get a Kinesis. I really wish that there was an alternative that was cheaper and you didn't have to "learn" it, but there really isn't so just get a kinesis, save yourself all the trouble of researching this crappy board, that kinda cheaper northgate, or maybe trying thin sissor switches... no just get a kinesis.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I got 2 USB adapters for .50 each :S. They seem to work fine so far. Maybe I got lucky haha.

Most likely they might be okay for typing but if you ever play any game for any reason through them, it will fail. Then there are also ones that cannot run a model m at all for whatever reason. OP, look at the usb converter wiki, I'd probably suggest a belkin or a blue cube.

i'm not saying make you're own ms ergo 4k + cherry brown, i doubt anyone will, but i'm saying if you are used to "ergonomic" keyboard, and you want mechnical switches... just save yourself the trouble, research and opinions of others who DO NOT care for ergonomic keyboards and just get a Kinesis.

True enough I really don't care about that in general. There are others who have said they used to use ergo boards but switching to a standard layout mech board helped more than the ergonomic board did. The OP said he didn't really have a problem using his laptop board.

At the same time, a model m is not expensive to try and if he doesn't like it, it will give an extremely good indicator of where he wants to go from there. Compared to literally any regular current cherry board and therefore also things like the kinesis or topre.

[frodeflintstone]

I checked out the Kenisis boards and the Freestyle looks promising.  The fact that it is two different pieces is a bit strange, but I see that you can mount it on a base and get something similar to the ms4000 that I have now.  The other one (the Advantage) looks just plain odd.  It seems like you would have to poke forward for the top row keys which seems awkward.  I did see that they had reviews from everybody and their brother saying how great it was.

One question I had was what kind of switches the freestyle has.  I got this from their site:

"The Freestyle Solo utilizes a quiet, low-force, tactile membrane key switch. The typical average maximum key force of a switch is 45 grams. This is at least 25% less than most traditional and many ergonomic keyboards such as the Microsoft 4000 with maximum key forces of over 60 grams."

So 45g could me the cherry brown switches?

I am actually quite comfortable on the flat laptop keyboard, so for me, I think the problem is the force required to press the keys down, not the how my hands sit on the board.  

I used an IBM model M keyboard for about a year back in about 1985 or so and I do remember the amazing feel of the keys clicking.  So I may get one just for nostalgic reasons!

My wife has an older MS(natural maybe?) keyboard.  It is significantly easier to type on than this MS 4000.  She uses a PS2 to USB converter and has a problem where the keyboard just stops working every so often (about every few days) and she has to reboot to get going again.  The mouse works fine, but the keyboard just stops  So that has me a little leery of relying on a converter for full time use.

Finally, nobody has given any feedback specifically about the Ducky brand of keyboards one way or the other, so I am getting a ho-hum feeling about that.  On other Posts, many gave it good reviews so my impression was that it was good quality.  If anyone can speak to that specific brand, I would appreciate it.

As I am typing this the muscles in my forearms are getting tired already!  Can't wait to make a purchase


Thank you all again for all your posts.


Oh, one other thing... I also have the dragon software which I used to do my last rough draft.  It actually worked pretty well (I was surprised).  But, there are many days when you just don't feel like talking.  Also, I found that when I was using the keyboard it was a very natural flow of ideas and words.  Whereas when talking, I really had to think about it.  Also, there was a bit of lag, so I would speak a few words then have to backtrack or wait for it to catch up.  I should be getting a new laptop with more horsepower soon so maybe that will fix some of the lag problem.  But still no replacement for a keyboard.  And I don't think my wife appreciates me being in my office blabbing on in the middle of the night while she is trying to sleep!

[Vocroth]

red switch might be good choice, it's need really low acutation power

[Lanx]

Oh, one other thing... I also have the dragon software which I used to do my last rough draft.  It actually worked pretty well (I was surprised).  But, there are many days when you just don't feel like talking.  Also, I found that when I was using the keyboard it was a very natural flow of ideas and words.  Whereas when talking, I really had to think about it.  Also, there was a bit of lag, so I would speak a few words then have to backtrack or wait for it to catch up.  I should be getting a new laptop with more horsepower soon so maybe that will fix some of the lag problem.  But still no replacement for a keyboard.  And I don't think my wife appreciates me being in my office blabbing on in the middle of the night while she is trying to sleep!

that's because you're probably worried about "talking like dragon" where your talking at a speed and in a way that dragon will recognize you, it basically stops free-form thought, for instance i would be talking then i know at the end i'll have to just say "period", "new paragraph" that just stops the flow, if you really want to try it, get a voice recorder any certified olympus will do, doesn't really matter, especially if you have dragon 11, the engine can pick up almost anything now.

[frodeflintstone]

You mean just talk into the recorder then have it "translate"...

That is very interesting.  Definitely not something I had considered.

[Lanx]

yes it's a regular component of dragon, you do have to train it though, and get a decent voice recorder, don't get any old jalope for obvious reasons, see their approved list, i do it all the time when i walk my dog.

[Saturn]

I may just pick up one of the model M boards to try.

Model M's are quite loud.  We used to have them at one of the little places I worked before because our boss had a fascination with them, but they'd be one of the worst choices if need something relatively quiet.

They are a lot of fun to type on, though.

[itlnstln]

Cherry browns.  Your fingers will love you.

This comes from a guy who types all day - look at my post count.  Oh, wait...

[itlnstln]

Well played.

[kohtachi]

what happen to the post count?

[itlnstln]

It's available when you click on the profile.  It was taken out for moderation reasons.

[jpc]

Kinesis Contoured, available in browns or reds.

It will force you to touch type. Highly recommended.

[Saturn]

In conclusion, rubber dome

[frodeflintstone]

So after reviewing everyone's posts and after reading as much as I could on this forum (yes, including Ripster's sig link, which caused my brain to explode - but I say, I say, I keep my brain matter numbered for just such an occasion), I have decided to go ahead with the cherry browns.  You gotta start somewhere.  I decided to get the Ducky one I was leaning towards at the beginning of this post since it is just $100 and in stock.

It should be here early next week.  I will reply back with my findings - not that all the keyboard addicts here even need my opinion

Oh, and I am also going to get a model M just for fun.

Thank you everyone again for your help!  What a great forum.

FF

[itlnstln]

Just do what the old-timers do.  Buy them all and pick your favorite.

[frodeflintstone]

I read Ripster's review of the filco with cherry browns +  other reviews that compared the filco and the ducky.  They seemed to be fairly similar but better quality than the das keyboard with the same switches.  I also see that itlnstln has a ducky so hopefully I made a good choice

[itlnstln]

I read Ripster's review of the filco with cherry browns +  other reviews that compared the filco and the ducky.  They seemed to be fairly similar but better quality than the das keyboard with the same switches.  I also see that itlnstln has a ducky so hopefully I made a good choice

Which Ducky did you get?  A 9xxx series, I hope.  My G2, while a little more than $100, is very nice.  The OCN one I have (9008) is nice, too, but I'm a little skeptical on the laser/pad print legends.  While it still looks new, I have a feeling those legends aren't going to last.

[frodeflintstone]

The one I got was the Ducky DK1087-B.  I really like the tenkeyless design because for me, having the mouse closer in is better.  Amazon did have the DK9000G2-B available, but it has the number pad. Aside from the number pad, is there a difference between the two?  The listings on Amazon don't give much detail.

EDIT:  
Here are the links:

tenkeyless:
http://www.amazon.com/Ducky-DK1087-B-Mechanical-Keyboard-Switches/dp/B005HIM0NK/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_3

and

DK9000G2:
http://www.amazon.com/Ducky-DK9000G2-B-Mechanical-Keyboard-Switches/dp/B005HIOPQA/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_2

[itlnstln]

I heard they were supposed to be redesigned, but the 1087 had some QC issues (cracked cases, from what I remember).  I'm not sure if the redesigned ones are on the market yet.

Essentially, Ducky has two quality tiers: the 9xxx series and the 1xxx series.  The 9xxx line is on par with Filco, Leopold, et. al.  The 1xxx series is their "value" line.  From my experience, pretty much all plate-mounted Cherry 'boards feel pretty much alike.  What you might find is that the key caps may not be as nice (ABS vs. PBT) or the styling not as pretty.  Barring any QC issues, though, it should be just fine.  Keep in mind, I don't own a 1xxx series 'board, so I don't have any specifics.  The good thing is that you bought it through Amazon, so if you do have a problem, you shouldn't have too much trouble RMAing it.

This is one of the Duckys I have.  Perusing through PCHome, I see some new 1087s, so maybe they did redesign them.

[frodeflintstone]

That looks like the same box as the one that I am supposed to be getting:

http://tigerimports.net/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9666

Here is the reseller's website:

I would happily change to the 9x series as they have not yet shipped it.  The only reason for not switching was because of the number keypad.

[frodeflintstone]

For what its worth, I just confirmed with the reseller that the only difference between the two ducky boards (DK1087 vs 9000G2) is that the 1087 has the 6 key limitation, where as the 9000G2 does not - it has full No Key Rollover (even though it is USB). The build quality is apparently identical (sans 10 key pad).  I type fast, but I don't think I type fast enough for this to be a problem.  Can anyone else comment on this?  I don't play games (much anymore).

Thank you!!

FF

[itlnstln]

Sounds good. Glad you were able to get some clarification.

[sordna]

I type fast, but I don't think I type fast enough for this to be a problem.  Can anyone else comment on this?

You don't need NKRO regardless how fast you type. You only need it for certain games, or if you want to play the piano or something with your keyboard and do complex chords ... still you probably won't be able to hold more than 10 keys down at the same time  :-)
NKRO is a much overrated feature IMO, some of the most highly rated keyboards (old IBMs) are 2KRO and people type on them plenty fast.

[False_Dmitry_II]

You wouldn't need to worry about the usb converter being the main thing. I have a couple of keyboards that I have never used without the converter, and they all work perfectly. But that's why I mentioned a couple specifically as ones that are known to work exactly as they should. Most that you could just go into a store and buy won't.

[frodeflintstone]

Well, my new Ducky just arrived today.  It is definitely louder than my MS 4000.  It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad).  Overall, the switches are very nice to type on.  The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off.  It is so much more difficult to push down.  I suppose I will get used to it.  I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me.  They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.  

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.

[itlnstln]

Well, my new Ducky just arrived today.  It is definitely louder than my MS 4000.  It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad).  Overall, the switches are very nice to type on.  The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off.  It is so much more difficult to push down.  I suppose I will get used to it.  I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me.  They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.  

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.

You might be seeing the stabilizer and not necessarily the switch.  Ducky (and Leopold) use the Cherry-style stabilizers that many find "mushy" or difficult to press on plate-mounted 'boards (they feel fine on PCB-mounted 'boards, IMO).  I, personally, don't find them that offensive, but they do change the feel in an undesirable way.  There's not really anything you can do about it, but there is a thread about swapping those stabilizers with the Filco-style.  IIRC, you would need the stabilizers and you would have to mod the metal plate the switches are mounted on.  I wouldn't spend time on it, but if it's something that really bothers you, it might be something to look into.

[sordna]

I found that cherry stabilized keys feel like having o-rings on them. On my Poker, I put o-rings on all keys except the stabilized ones, and the feel became totally uniform. It quiets down the keyboard too.

[N8N]

ps/2 to usb adapters are like 75 cents on ebay...

Anyways I think blues, reds, topres and browns are nice to type on. I haven't tried a model M (or I have but it was at least 2 decades ago, so I wouldn't remember), but I hear they're somewhat like White Alps and those take too much force to use (imo).

 
be aware that the Model M tends to be somewhat finicky about the USB adapter used with it.  For a laptop I would recommend the Belkin one referenced in the wikis somewhere (there's a thread in the wiki section about PS/2 to USB adapters) over the blue cube for space reasons although either would work.  The ZioTek adapter also works, albeit with some weirdness about the pause/break key.

Personally I find Cherry Clears to be the best switch *for me* for all day typing, but I do apparently have a heavier touch than some.  If that's not an issue for you I find blues to be nice and tactile, although the click is annoying.  (but a Model M is even louder, although for some reason I don't mind its sound as much.)  Browns I find OK but too light (may not be an issue for you) and they don't have as pronounced a tactile bump as the clears.  "Ergo clears" are nice for a light typist but involve modifications so they may not be for you.

So I guess go for blues if you don't mind the noise, or browns if you think that would be a problem.

Since you say "type" I didn't suggest any linear switches because conventional wisdom seems to be tactile for typing and linear for gaming, although there have been boards made that are obviously not gamer-oriented with linear switches (e.g. I have a Cherry board that was apparently intended for a rack mount server application that has blacks...  go figure.)

[N8N]

Well, my new Ducky just arrived today.  It is definitely louder than my MS 4000.  It appears that when the keys return to the up position they click ?(which is not bad).  Overall, the switches are very nice to type on.  The only thing that is very strange is that the space bar, shift keys, enter key, and backspace all "feel" different than the rest of the keys. The space bar is really throwing me off.  It is so much more difficult to push down.  I suppose I will get used to it.  I am 100% certain that the brown switches were the right ones for me.  They are nice and easy to push and the feel is very nice. It almost feels effortless to type, except when I have to push the space bar... very strange.  

I just pulled off the space bar and the switch color is black.

Anyway, thank you to everyone who posted.

Cherry Corp. tends to put a heavier switch in for the space bar.  I find that to be preferable, although apparently a lot of people don't.  I have never actually handled a Ducky keyboard, but I can tell you that Filco, WASD, and Noppoo use the same switch for the space bar that they use for the rest of the keys.  I actually found that kind of annoying, as I found myself bottoming out the space bar all the time.  I modified my Filco to Cherry MX clear switches, and when I did so I used the grey (like a clear, but with a heavier spring) switch from the donor Cherry Corp. board.  I found that to be an improvement, but you may not agree!

As for the keys feeling different, it sounds like those are all the keys with the stabilizers.  I think that the Ducky is supposed to use Cherry style stablizers as opposed to the Costars that most other non-Cherry keyboards use w/ Cherry switches.  Maybe a little lube on the stabilizers is in order?  Not sure what the official recommendation is there; on the Costar stabilizers usually white lithium grease is recommended.

hope you're enjoying your new board...

[itlnstln]

Cherry Corp. tends to put a heavier switch in for the space bar.  I find that to be preferable, although apparently a lot of people don't.  I have never actually handled a Ducky keyboard, but I can tell you that Filco, WASD, and Noppoo use the same switch for the space bar that they use for the rest of the keys.  I actually found that kind of annoying, as I found myself bottoming out the space bar all the time.  I modified my Filco to Cherry MX clear switches, and when I did so I used the grey (like a clear, but with a heavier spring) switch from the donor Cherry Corp. board.  I found that to be an improvement, but you may not agree!

As for the keys feeling different, it sounds like those are all the keys with the stabilizers.  I think that the Ducky is supposed to use Cherry style stablizers as opposed to the Costars that most other non-Cherry keyboards use w/ Cherry switches.  Maybe a little lube on the stabilizers is in order?  Not sure what the official recommendation is there; on the Costar stabilizers usually white lithium grease is recommended.

hope you're enjoying your new board...

Both my Duckys have uniform switches (brown) in the Spacebar.  Without any science behind this, what I think is happening is that the wire in the Cherry-Style stabilizers doesn't have quite the range-of-movement in a plate-mounted 'board that they do on a Cherry Corp., PCB-mounted 'board.  I compared a Cherry 'board with one of my Duckys, and the Ducky was noticeably stiffer than the Cherry.  Either that, or Leopold, Ducky, et. al. are using some inferior clone of the Cherry stabilizer that just doesn't feel as nice.

[frodeflintstone]

@itlnstln - How can you tell if the switches in the space bar are browns?  I pulled off the cap, and they appeared to be black.  

Getting used to the space bar a bit more as the day has progressed, so maybe I will feel differently about it tomorrow.  Overall, the build quality is very high IMHO and I am quite happy with it.

FF