Alternative keyboard layout: 5 rows only, XT-style function keys

[Adelhyde]

Here's an alternative keyboard layout I've been thinking about. What do you think? This image was made using the CC-licensed Colemak layout SVG from DreymaR, which was featured in this thread:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?9095-Tools-for-keyboard-layout-sketches-%28not-for-remapping%29

The main difference from other layouts is that there are only 5 rows and the function keys are stacked up like on a PC/XT or Northgate keyboard. I think this makes sense because it's usually easier to reach to the side with your fingers than to reach up - to press the function keys on this layout you just need to rotate your wrist a bit unless you have you have very small hands, whereas with a regular keyboard you usually need to lift your entire hand up to reach the function keys. It also makes it much easier to type modifier/function combos like Alt-F4, not to mention saving space behind the keyboard.

The Esc key has replaced the grave key, which has now taken up residence next to the smaller-than-usual right shift. This means that you hardly have to move your hand to hit Esc, and the new placement for grave makes sense to me because it's near the quotation mark, and the grave is another form of quotation mark. Should make typing SQL queries more intuitive. Left Ctrl, Caps Lock and Alt are also switched around, which has well-known benefits.

Then there's the keypad. Instead of a usual tenkeyless layout, this one drops the nav cluster and keeps the keypad, with the 5 key becoming another KP_Down so you don't have to reach as far to use the down arrow. I think it eliminates one of the only problems with the keypad compared to the nav cluster, and it should be easier to transition between typing and navigating when the nav cluster is on the home row compared to the bottom row.

There are some applications that use the 5 key for something, but you would lose access to that key anyway on a tenkeyless board. I guess you could have a programmable option that would make the 5 key work like it does on other keyboards. The other disadvantage of this vs. tenkeyless is that the numpad is one unit wider than the nav cluster, so if you want the minimum possible distance between your right hand and the mouse tenkeyless would be the way to go.

Some numpad advantages are that you can use diagonal movement in some apps/games, you have quicker access to the Pgup/Pgdn/Home/End keys, numeric entry work is easier, and there are some applications that are best used with a numpad. For instance, in the Linux image browser Geeqie, Pgup and Pgdn shuffle through images, + and - zoom in or out, the directional keys scroll across a zoomed-in image, the / key fits the image to the window and the * key zooms to 100%. Very fast and intuitive - I think there's a lot more an interface designer can do with the numpad than with the nav cluster.

Anyway, thoughts? Maybe someday I'll have a PCB printed for this layout and try it for real.

[f16pilotjumper]

I like this a lot.  As an engineer, I tend to use the numpad a lot (often in Excel where I also want to be able to type) so Tenkeyless doesn't really do it for me.  The arrow keys, on the other hand, have always struck me as pretty useless and redundant, if you're not too lazy to use the NumLock key the way the keyboard gods intended.    Excepting rare cases where you want to scroll around an Excel file with the arrows and enter data with the numpad...

What I've always liked about layouts like the Model F XT/Model F AT is that the hands are used "equally", with the keys that aren't part of the main letter group evenly distributed to the left and right.  When I was 10 and we had a handmedown IBM PC with the XT layout, my muscle memory for the Function keys was WAY better then with the modern layouts.

If I was making this, I would move the leftmost column of set of keys into standard spacing with the two colums next to them, and make all of those keys relegendable/remapable keys.  Need to use a Nav Cluster at the same time as the numpad?  No problem, map a 'Nav Cluster Lock' key and use F3/Pause/F5/F6 as a Nav Cluster....

So where can I buy one?

[Adelhyde]

If I was making this, I would move the leftmost column of set of keys into standard spacing with the two colums next to them, and make all of those keys relegendable/remapable keys.  Need to use a Nav Cluster at the same time as the numpad?  No problem, map a 'Nav Cluster Lock' key and use F3/Pause/F5/F6 as a Nav Cluster....

I thought of making the left-hand keys into one big 3x5 cluster, but didn't in order to make sure that the F1-F10 keys are prominent and easy to find. The simplest way to lay out the keys on the left would be to have F1-F12 be a big continuous cluster, with F1-F3 on the first line, then F4-F6 and so on, and then have the three special keys either above or below the function keys. However, if you did that you would have F1 on the far left of the keyboard where the user would have to reach way over to press it. Other low-numbered function keys would also be harder to press. I think it makes more sense to have F11, F12 and the special keys over on the far left because they are used the least.

You could keep the current arrangement of keys and just eliminate the gap between the F1-F10 group and the far left column, but then I think it becomes a bit harder to find F1, F3, and other low-numbered function keys when they are stuck in the middle of a bunch of keys like that. I think it's easiest to find the function keys when they are grouped two by two.

Still, there are advantages to having all three columns together, as you said it could be programmed to act as a nav cluster or you could make it relegendable, but so many apps use the function keys that it might not be practical.

[f16pilotjumper]

Why Not:

Code: [Select]

|  PRINT SCREEN  |  SCROLL LOCK  |  PAUSE  |
|       F9       |       F5      |    F1   |
|       F10      |       F6      |    F2   |
|       F11      |       F7      |    F3   |
|       F12      |       F8      |    F4   |

And put a raised dot or blip on F1 like in the home row to assist in locating it.

[Rajagra]

That's pretty good. Having the Function keys close to the modifiers has always made more sense.
But I also like the grouping of the Func keys into blocks of 4.
Something like the following would suit me, but your point about F1 being distant is valid. Personally, I think the Func keys are going to be out of reach of the home position, so just make them logical regardless of the distance.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 36822[/ATTACH]

[flyball]

I think this makes sense because it's usually easier to reach to the side with your fingers than to reach up - to press the function keys on this layout you just need to rotate your wrist a bit unless you have you have very small hands, whereas with a regular keyboard you usually need to lift your entire hand up to reach the function keys. It also makes it much easier to type modifier/function combos like Alt-F4, not to mention saving space behind the keyboard.

this isnt ergonomically ideal.

as for the numpad, maybe move the arrow cluster up so /789 is up/left/down/right and then have the real home row cluster on the bottom 6 number keys.

[Adelhyde]

That's a good idea, f16, ordering the function keys by column gives you quick access to the low-numbered ones and would probably make touch-typing easier, especially if you put a bump on F1. And an upside of your design and Rajagra's is that Alt-F4 is really easy to enter. I'd rather not have F1 far away as in Rajagra's design, though.

But having the left cluster be 4 keys wide is an interesting idea... it give you room for 5 more keys on top. You could put some programming and macro keys up there. It's also nice because it makes the keyboard completely symmetrical, but a downside is the added width.

And flyball, what do you mean by the real home row cluster?

[flyball]

That's a good idea, f16, ordering the function keys by column gives you quick access to the low-numbered ones and would probably make touch-typing easier, especially if you put a bump on F1. And an upside of your design and Rajagra's is that Alt-F4 is really easy to enter. I'd rather not have F1 far away as in Rajagra's design, though.

But having the left cluster be 4 keys wide is an interesting idea... it give you room for 5 more keys on top. You could put some programming and macro keys up there. It's also nice because it makes the keyboard completely symmetrical, but a downside is the added width.

And flyball, what do you mean by the real home row cluster?

above the arrow keys on a normal keyboard/tenkeyless

[Human]

People in China are working on keyboard with such layout. Probably will be in market in another half year time.

[flyball]

People in China are working on keyboard with such layout. Probably will be in market in another half year time.

Show Image

that's a lot uglier though imo, weird numpad key layout, also arrow keys under wasd on the function layer is also a bit weird. good to see something like that get done though, staggered numpad like on the duckies is really awkward

[f16pilotjumper]

I think I will try my hand at laying out a PCB for this (with 3 columns in a single block on the left hand side).

Maybe add a trackpoint?

[Adelhyde]

Sure, go ahead, I prefer your design revision over the original. Here's my revised vector image...



I don't know about the trackpoint thing, though, adding them to keyboards isn't to my taste.

[Elrick]

Adelhyde,

This is really a nice layout.  If you ever decide to make it........put me down for one order.

[f16pilotjumper]

I am likely going to make a prototype with a home-etched PCB and Teensy++ controller.  I need a donor board for switches and caps though.  

It looks like the PCB will end up ~17.25" wide, which unfortunately puts it outside the "prototype deals" most PCB places offer...

[Adelhyde]

Cool! You can buy Cherry switches at Mouser Electronics:

http://ca.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Switches/Keylock-Switches/_/N-5g2u?Keyword=cherry+mx&FS=True

But recycling them from an existing board would be cheaper. Some of the keys will have to be custom-made: the function keys, the 1.75-unit right shift, the row 4 grave, and the switched Ctrl/Caps Lock. You could probably get them from WASDKeyboards.com. Are you going to base the layout on the Filco/Leopold layout?

Also, what's the maximum width for a typical prototype PCB bargain package? If I and some other interested parties wanted to buy additional copies of the PCB it might help defray the cost.

[f16pilotjumper]

I have an old board with white complex ALPS switches that I picked up at a surplus store for $1 that I might disassemble to make the prototype.  It would make getting the needed custom keys difficult though....

I have never built a custom keyboard before, so I'd like to test out a prototype a bit before making a bunch of PCBs.  I can get copper clad board  in the right size for ~$40 and etch a single sided PCB at home.

[Adelhyde]

Hey, another thought for this layout: I think it would be best to switch the Insert and Delete keys on the numpad. Delete is used much more frequently than Insert, so it makes sense to put it on the larger key.

With no nav cluster, it's necessary for users to have a Delete key they can easily reach. The nav cluster Delete key is easy to find and reach, the numpad key not so much. With Insert and Delete switched, the new Delete key will be just as big as the Backspace key. Users will be able to quickly reach over and press it with the right pinky finger.

[f16pilotjumper]

I think switching Del with Ins on the keypad is a great idea.

[Rajagra]

I think switching Del with Ins on the keypad is a great idea.

It is - but sadly Ins is tied to the zero, and would you want a small zero key and large decimal point key?
You could get around this in keyboard firmware, but that's more difficult than a hardware reshuffle.

[f16pilotjumper]

Well, I'll either end up using a Teensy controller or the AIKON controller that is being worked on by another member here, so either way I should have the capability to remap those keys.

[weenis]

I'm a computer engineer, and one of my problems with small keyboards like Noppoo or Poker is the fact that the "Insert", "Delete", "Home", "End", "Page Up", and "Page Down" are not readily accessible.

I use all but "Insert" very frequently through the day. CTRL+Delete, CTRL+Shift+Delete, CTRL+Home, CTRL+End, CTRL+Shift+End, CTRL+Shift+Home, Shift+Page Up... etc.

These are really keyboard commando buttons for me, they save a lot of time in what I do.

[Adelhyde]

Re: Rajagra, I wouldn't switch the 0 and . keys around, I would just change 0 to act as Delete and . to act as Insert when not numlocked. See the revised illustration:



Delete is easy to reach now. Also, if you're using the numpad arrow keys on this layout to navigate through a document you're editing, you can very quickly hit Backspace and Enter (with index finger) and Delete (with thumb) - more quickly than you can if you're moving through a document with the nav cluster.

[f16pilotjumper]

Somewhat of an update...

I've purchased the least-expensive mechanical switch keyboard possible (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-mechanical-gaming-typing-keyboard/dp/B005IKLDYE/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1326583353&sr=1-7) to act as a switch donor for a prototype of this board. The switches are some modern ALPS clicky copy...

I found an old Moretek MCK-101FX at the local surplus store, sitting out in the desert in a half-open storage container.  It has nice doubleshot keycaps and white ALPS switches.  But the switches are pretty much shot from being filled with desert dust for 10+ years.  At $1 for a set of doubleshots, I won't complain.

I'll piece together the layout with the keycaps from those two sets.  The profiles/rows of the keys that are moved around might be off a little bit, but it should be good enough to show the concept (and as a less-expensive first custom keyboard project for me).  

If there is sufficient interest once I have prototype pictures to show off, I'll proceed on with a professional PCB for Cherry switches, and see about getting the right keycaps made to be a matching set.  I'd rather make that decision with input from anyone else who wants them, because there are a lot of different keycap options....

[shogrran]

I immediately thought this would be good for games. Now Instead of adding other macro buttons that make the keyboard bigger, I can use the function keys -- which i don't get to use in games because they are too far from my left hand.

[DreymaR]

You used my graphics, and gave credit! Thanks.

If I were to make a PCB my primary focus would be to fix the left-hand row stagger. I once made a quick mockup of the idea:



Obviously, the Tab and Esc keys might be arranged differently to suit your tastes. Maybe move the Tab to the bigger key on the top row to make it easy to find (and keep its original size)?

The lower right-hand key is up for grabs. If I could make a keyboard I'd consider putting a laptop-type Fn key there.

If you don't want a trackpoint in the half-key gap, fine. Not room for much else there though.

[Adelhyde]

Great, f16, I'm looking forward to the finished product. If you want ALPS keys for this project, you could take them from a Northgate keyboard, but I don't recommend that unless you can find a broken one since Northgates are too nice to butcher. This layout was partially inspired by Northgate boards - the small right Shift key and the alternate placement of Ctrl/Alt/Caps Lock are taken from Northgates. On a Northgate, the key next to right Shift is backslash, not grave, since Northgates have L-shaped enter keys. The 2-column function keys in my original design are also copied from Northgate, which copied the IBM PC/AT, so if you wanted to lay the function keys out like I did originally you could take them from a Northgate and have the rows match. But for a prototype it's no big deal if all the function keys are shaped for row 1.

And that's an interesting layout, DreymaR, what are the leys in the lower right supposed to be? Thanks for making that SVG.

[f16pilotjumper]

Great, f16, I'm looking forward to the finished product. If you want ALPS keys for this project, you could take them from a Northgate keyboard.

Funny thing, I found a small-town computer parts store online... They had an Omnikey Ultra listed for $54, as of 12/1/11... I called it was still available.  On its way to me now.  But I won't butcher it for this project.

[mt490]

The main difference from other layouts is that there are only 5 rows and the function keys are stacked up like on a PC/XT or Northgate keyboard. I think this makes sense because it's usually easier to reach to the side with your fingers than to reach up - to press the function keys on this layout you just need to rotate your wrist a bit unless you have you have very small hands, whereas with a regular keyboard you usually need to lift your entire hand up to reach the function keys. It also makes it much easier to type modifier/function combos like Alt-F4, not to mention saving space behind the keyboard.

I have to echo the comment about the ergonomics of this, I think you'll find the 83/84 style function key layout was abandoned because it's much easier to splay your fingers to cover the board than it is to move your whole hand to the left. Consequently the laptop style function row is fairly ergonomic in practice.

With the CAD software I use the typical method is to hover the left hand over the keyboard. The hotkeys are all over the place on the normal alphabet area, the last thing I'd want to do is need to move my hand further to the left to hit the F keys.

I actually have an 84 derivative board that came with a 286 portable computer (the ancient ones with the CRT inboard, but not the ones that seem to come up on google) with a very similar layout except the F keys are bunched on top without the typical 4x3 grouping. Probably easier to see if I gave you a pic though seems like I'm not allowed to post it

ed- imageshack.us/photo/my-images/528/p1010958g.jpg/

Funnily enough the keypad looks really awkward with the giant plus button in place of the enter button but the giant enter button is so close it makes little difference. More annoying though is not having * and / on the numpad!

Also I'd probably put scroll lock on an Fn layer on a modern board, if at all. I haven't come across any use for it in modern times, you either use the pgup/dn keys or the mouse.

[Soarer]

Do you have telescopic fingers?! My fingers are quite long, but I still have to move my arm to reach the F-key row. And that's the whole arm moving, whereas it's just the lower part that swings left a bit to reach F-keys on the left. No, the reason the F-leys moved up top is because of the cursor key block being added; the keyboard would be too wide otherwise. Heh, by your logic, the cursor keys should be above as well! :-)

[RSSonic92]

People in China are working on keyboard with such layout. Probably will be in market in another half year time.

Show Image

that's actually pretty neat and space saving

[mt490]

Do you have telescopic fingers?! My fingers are quite long, but I still have to move my arm to reach the F-key row. And that's the whole arm moving, whereas it's just the lower part that swings left a bit to reach F-keys on the left. No, the reason the F-leys moved up top is because of the cursor key block being added; the keyboard would be too wide otherwise. Heh, by your logic, the cursor keys should be above as well! :-)

I don't think they're telescopic

This is probably a problem of posture. You're probably using a prose typing oriented posture which means that if your bring your wrist all the way to the lowest it can go and flatten your hands, the middle finger only just touches F1 and F2 on a standard keyboard. OTOH with a slightly higher arc I can reach all the way to F4 on a standard keyboard, F6 on a laptop keyboard and the one in my last post, and this one is the most useful for CAD because the left hand is in control of the whole main part of the keyboard most of the time.

But having said that, overall F key usage is fairly rare, only a few programs (the antiques) use them particularly often. I only do embedded programming stuff but hitting an F key in those situations usually means you've just finished doing your typing anyway, so it doesn't really matter where the F key is.

[Rajagra]

I think you'll find the 83/84 style function key layout was abandoned because it's much easier to splay your fingers to cover the board than it is to move your whole hand to the left.

I believe the theory that Function keys were moved to the top so they lined up with menus shown at the bottom of the screen by the olde worlde DOS applications. In doing so, it became impossible to use modifiers with them comfortably, one-handed.
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdEnh101-c.html

[f16pilotjumper]

So, a few updates:
-F21-7D arrived from Amazon ($44 shipped) and I tore it apart to start desoldering the Blue XM switches.  
-I'm creating KiCAD libraries for ALPS switches, in addition to the Cherry libraries posted elsewhere on the forums
-A friend with a CNC mill has agreed to make me an Aluminum mounting plate for the prototype.  He would potentially be able to help with a small production run later on.
-I need to get another set of ALPS keycaps to scavenge from
-I will be contacting Fentek about getting a set(s) of keycaps specifically for the layout made (more for future use then the prototype).

If the prototype works out, I'll tweak everything for Cherry switches and we can talk about how people might be interested in getting one of these.

[Adelhyde]

Aluminum mounting plates? Sounds great, thanks for the update.

Are you going to lay out the bottom row keys based on the F21-7D? I notice that, unlike the Filco/Leopold boards, their Windows and Alt keys are smaller than the Ctrl keys. I think that the Filco bottom row layout is ideal, with all the keys except spacebar having the same size, but for the prototype whatever's easiest is best.

Also, where do you plan on putting the LEDs? I picture them being on the top edge of the keyboard.

Also, re: the function key placement change, I heard a rumor that Microsoft got IBM to change the layout in order to torpedo WordPerfect, which made heavy use of modifier-function key combos.

[f16pilotjumper]

For the prototype, I'll lay out the bottom row based on what keycaps I have/can get.

For a potential version with multiple copies made, I'd probably lay it out with the modern Filco bottom layout with all the modifiers the same.  I think WASD might be our best bet for getting keycaps made (since they sell a completely customized set for $60 to start with) and the closer I can keep the layout to what they use, the better.

[f16pilotjumper]

I received a reply from Weyman at WASD.  They have the 1x1.75 R1 key that we would use for the right shift available, even though it's not used in their current keyboards.  If we make some Cherry based boards, he'd be willing to support a group buy distributed by one of us for < 10 sets, or sell sets on the website for > 10 sets (!).

[f16pilotjumper]

So, after perusing GH and DT, I've made some changes to my prototype strategy.  I'm going to use a laser-cut acrylic plate like cfishy's Frankenstein and point-to-point wiring using the legs of the diodies like lowpoly's M0110.  

A preview of the layout.  The beige keycaps are doubleshots from an Ortek MCX-101SX that I got for $1 at a surplus store.  The board was sitting in an open shipping container in the Mojave desert for ~15 years.  I'm trying to get another set of black keycaps from an ABS M1 from another GHer which would to a better job of completing the layout then the keys from the F21-7D - it would give me enter, backspace, and a spacebar/modifier row with modern width keys.  

What the labels actually look like:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38759[/ATTACH]

The layout they would implement:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38760[/ATTACH]

[Adelhyde]

Great to see this coming together. The Ortek keyboards have ISO Enter keys, right? You could just take the backspace key from the F21-7D and put it in there instead of having two side-by-side backspace keys.

[f16pilotjumper]

Both keyboards had one-wide backspace keys.  An AT101/AT101W would have what I need, but I don't feel like spending a lot more on this version.

I'd like to fit a Fn key in the layout somewhere, to switch layers in hardware.  I might use the right windows key modifier for that.  Two windows keys is kind of redundant.