Got a Topre Realforce All-45g but key weights vary by over 20g!

[pli]

My Topre Realforce all-45g EliteKeyboards edition (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0) arrived yesterday, and I'm a bit mystified.

I immediately noticed that some of the keys were quite significantly lighter. Especially the ', \, Right Alt and Left Windows keys require no effort to press down compared to other keys.

So I did some tests with a digital scale and weights, and tested different keys with their caps on. The significantly lighter keys go down at 33-35g (L.Win at 38g) and the bump is not really that pronounced. Most keys on the keyboard go down at 50-55g and the bump at the beginning of the key travel is noticable.

Where it gets really odd is that for example in the middle of the keyboard, the h-key goes down at 48g (and has a light bump) when the g-key next to it requires 56g of weights before giving way (and has a pronounced bump). This is noticable while typing. The left hand side of the keyboard felt stiffer when I stared typing, and I first thought it was just me. But when I measured it, it really is stiffer. All the keys on the left side of the home row hold themselves up at 55g when half the keys on the right can't even hold 50g. Then for example the Esc-key requires only 41g and most of the top row F-keys get pressed down at 46g. There is variation like this all over the board which makes for an odd feel when typing, and there are keys that don't fit into any weight category.

So, what's the deal here? Is the all-45g model not really all-45 but mostly-same-weights-here-and-there instead? Do I have a keyboard with random monday parts thrown into it? Or is the quality control of the switches refererred to as the "Mercedes of the keyboard world" so bad that they might differ by whole weight categories? I've thought about things like break-in and how the keys might even out a bit over time. If the switches were within 3g of eachother I would believe it's just variation and having to break them in, but if switches that are supposed to be the same differ as much as the weights they manufacture (30,35,45,55cN according to deskthority wiki) it's a bit hard to believe.

Does anyone here have an all-45g model they could test this with (if not anything comprehensive, at least something really obvious like the \ key)? Or does anyone know how to identify what switches are used? The switches themselves each have a letter on them but I have not been able to find any pattern. I emailed EliteKeyboards after initially measuring the lightest keys yesterday but have not heard back from them yet.


Update: I heard back from EliteKeyboards. They confirmed what thegunner100 said about Topre's tolerances in manufacturing, but said that the differences measured here are unusually big. It's common for the keys to start on the heavier side and loosen up a bit after some use, but the light keys can't really get heavier. A replacement board would be an option, but it is not offered in this case as I live outside the US. They have asked Topre to weight in, but unless they are interested in getting involved, the options EK is suggesting are either a small discount or replacement domes for the switches.

I'll let you know when I hear more.

[thegunner100]

Topre tolerances are +/- 15g. It seems very significant in your case though, so perhaps you can try emailing Brian and seeing if you can get an exchange for it?

My alphanumeric keys on my 55g 87u are all pretty even, but the capslock and L shift are significantly stiffer than the other keys. I don't mind it as all, as I love how they feel when they bottom out. As for my 45g, I bought it used, and the original owner had about 6 monthes on it. A few of the alpha keys were slightly off, maybe by just a couple of grams. But I wouldn't notice it while i'm typing. Measurements were done with a rip-o-meter though, so take them with a grain of salt. Or more.

[metalliqaz]

Very interesting.  If you hear back from EK let us know the result!  I want to pick up that exact board at some point in the future.

[pli]

Topre tolerances are +/- 15g.

Are you sure? That's quite odd considering the difference between the keys in the weighted model is less than that. If +/-15g is acceptable that would mean your pinky keys could be heavier than your index finger keys in the weighted version, and that would pretty much destroy the whole point

Very interesting.  If you hear back from EK let us know the result!  I want to pick up that exact board at some point in the future.

I'll update the thread when they respond. I could have gotten the weighted version for a steal at a local retailer but decided to pretty much pay double for the uniform one. I ended up getting the EK version instead of the basic all-45g model because it's the most recent model by Topre -- so I figured I had the best chance of not running into any issues or getting an unit with some old production issues.

[thegunner100]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20894.0

[pli]

metalliqaz: I updated the original post with what I heard from EliteKeyboards.

thegunner100: Thanks for the link. EK also confirmed what you said about the tolerances. It's a bit comical though like I mentioned in my previous post. You could end up getting a 55g key that is lighter than a 30g key next to it with these kinds of tolerances.

[hakujin]

The 87U all 45G model I owned (wasn't the EK edition) also had noticeable variance between the lightest and heaviest keys.  The HHKB I'm now using is more consistent.  Luck of the draw?  Not acceptable to have such high variance on the only real feature that matters when the keyboard is marketed as a premier luxury good and priced accordingly, imo.

[pli]

The 87U all 45G model I owned (wasn't the EK edition) also had noticeable variance between the lightest and heaviest keys.  The HHKB I'm now using is more consistent.  Luck of the draw?  Not acceptable to have such high variance on the only real feature that matters when the keyboard is marketed as a premier luxury good and priced accordingly, imo.

Yeah I agree. I don't know how their production line works but you'd think that with a premium product like this domes that don't respond as expected could be pushed back into the melting pot . A tolerance bigger than the difference between the models you produce is quite unheard of in manufacturing. If it hasn't been just luck for you, maybe it's that since PFU makes their custom board, they have stricter criteria on what ends up on the end product.

Topre makes a very nice product and the form factor fits well, the operation is smooth and the switch seems to work great... but as you say, the feeling of the keys is the thing that matters most in a keyboard so this would be quite an important thing to sort out.

[AKIMbO]

Man that sucks...I feel for you pli.  I just typed a little on my uniform 45g EK Edition and the keys you mentioned do a feel a little lighter than the rest of the keys on the board, but I do not have humongous weight discrepancies like you do.

[thegunner100]

Wait... i thought topre domes stiffen up over time O_O.

[pli]

Thanks AKIMbO, let's hope I can get this sorted.

Wait... i thought topre domes stiffen up over time O_O.

I guess rubber could do both depending on the kind of rubber.

Brian said this in his email: "[...] on average, in our tests, the weighting of Topre keys are higher than stated right out of the box, and they do tend to lighten up a bit after a week of use [...]" so I understood it as them getting a bit lighter.