Truly Ergonomic Communication - Aug 25 2011

[Architect]

They are ready to push the manufacturing button and sent an email that this is my last chance to change my order. Prices are going up to $250 USD after August 31st (glad I got two@$150 during opportune sale times in the preorder - and I kept the faith!) It's been a tough road for them and us early adopters, but I am really looking forward to this keyboard.

[Input Nirvana]

Hasn't happened yet. Another delay.

I particularly like how the price has gone up $50 and they offer 5 days to pre-order. Why are they so big on the pre-order? Why not just crank the price after they pump out a few and the reviews are available. Now that "its" $250, that opens the door for a few other keyboards to not look so expensive. Hello Kinesis Advantage?

I know I sound highly skeptical, and that's because I am. Doesn't it sound like a take-your-money-before-we-bankrupt ploy? Maybe it's not, but it is the sketchiest way of running a legitimate business. Only on the internet in a niche market could this have gotten so far without being lynched. If they do manufacture it, probably should buy one immediately if you thing you want it, because it's a brutal market, and the likelihood of anyone staying in business is slim, let alone an obviously shaky skin-of-your-teeth operation. I'm bothered by their misleading website.

Equal time segment: Interesting ergo layout, proposed mechanical switches, programmability, some customization. Hopefully build quality will be decent or better.

I believe everything I say in this post is relevant and accurate.

[jpc]

"Early Adopters?"

That's such... optimism...

[shrap]

Gotta love marketing. If the design is solid, there's no reason why the second batch should cost more than the first. I wonder if they're going to be stubborn and refuse to sell again at the lower price.

For $250, they don't even have the "crazy ergonomic design" of Kinesis or Maltron. With those two you can look at it and believe it should cost $300. From a distance, the TE looks like a tenkeyless $25 Microsoft Natural.

[Input Nirvana]

100 mechanical switches are pretty much worth $70+ soldered into a keyboard, and the keyboard itself is worth at least $35+, so using that logic, at starting point for a mechanical switch keyboard is at least $110+. Start adding for other things such as upgraded anything (non-flat, hand built, added widgets, etc.) and overall desirability and that's where the price would be over the $110+ starting mark. $250 seems high to me, I thought the over-$150 but well under-$200 was the sweet spot, but then again I don't build ergo mechanical keyboards for a living, I buy them.

[shrap]

100 mechanical switches are pretty much worth $70+ soldered into a keyboard, and the keyboard itself is worth at least $35+, so using that logic, at starting point for a mechanical switch keyboard is at least $110+.

I think your logic is off, as there are many examples of new mechanical keyboards that cost less than $110.

[Input Nirvana]

I think your logic is off, as there are many examples of new mechanical keyboards that cost less than $110.

Really? Shows how little I know. I'm not too savy on flat keyboards, I've evolved to the next level

But, that being said, if mech boards are well under $110, then in my eyes it's getting harder to justify the $250 price tag for the imaginary TE keyboard...that just makes things worse.

EDIT---Being programmable is worth a good chunk of change though (even if they do use ancient dip switch technology), so that helps boost the price again.

[Lanx]

the biggest ergonomic draw i see against the TE that many of us have stated is that it's flat. i mean heck i've taken design cues from the TE, by incorporating a matrix layout in my second mod, but the TE, even when shipped, will be lacking.
it'll still make you "type different" if that's the case why not just get a proven kinesis then.

[Input Nirvana]

Exactly. At $150/$200 verses $300 there were considerations for the cheaper price. At $250 verses $300, not much to consider, the Kinesis is the Gold Standard. I'm trying to imagine what the TE can do that will make the $250 worth it when you can have a Kinesis for $300.

[sordna]

God, why doesn't anyone make a truly split keyboard without the staggering? Do I really have to cut up my beloved Kinesises? Why doesn't anyone put the two concepts (straight columns AND split) together?

Except this guy, only these boards are too long to put in a tented position:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25108[/ATTACH]

[Input Nirvana]

I never heard back both times I attempted contact. Too bad, their 'ware for the boards seems like good stuff. Maybe someday...

[sordna]

I was "so disappoint" with Kinesis too, when they introduced the Freestyle. I sent them an email, asking why whyy WHYYY did you stagger it??? Who needs another Goldtouch?

PS. Your new avatar is hilarious, please keep it!

[Input Nirvana]

I was "so disappoint" with Kinesis too, when they introduced the Freestyle. I sent them an email, asking why whyy WHYYY did you stagger it??? Who needs another Goldtouch?

I didn't understand it at first. I guess they didn't want it to be TOO different, and get some easier sales. I have a Freestyle, nice board, but I just can't do the staggering anymore.

PS. Your new avatar is hilarious, please keep it!

I already tried to delete it, but the Colonel actually SAID "Ping!" OUT LOUD! Scared the crap outta me.
He'll be staying on the wall.

[slueth]

I probably would of bought one at 150, but at 250, I think they are pushing it.

[Input Nirvana]

I probably would of bought one at 150, but at 250, I think they are pushing it.

Me too. Then again, I don't believe there is a board, or that there ever WILL be a board.

But, if there IS a board, and it's good, REALLY good, like REALLY REALLY good, it might be worth close to what they are trying to get for it. My guess is that it won't sell for that price, and it will drop to something more reasonable.

Then, six months later, they will go out of business, and Costar will make it for $150.

[Lanx]

if we look at it, TE has always played these "price games" aren't ppl tired of it already? what were some of them?
buy a board for 150

oh no we're late, here's 50 coupon

what else bs marketing have they done?

[Input Nirvana]

if we look at it, TE has always played these "price games" aren't ppl tired of it already? what were some of them?
buy a board for 150

oh no we're late, here's 50 coupon

what else bs marketing have they done?

Blatantly lying on their website.

[Oqsy]

Blatantly lying on their website.

What are you referring to specifically?  I'm not taking ussue with the statement, just out of the loop on TE lately.

[slueth]

Me too. Then again, I don't believe there is a board, or that there ever WILL be a board.

But, if there IS a board, and it's good, REALLY good, like REALLY REALLY good, it might be worth close to what they are trying to get for it. My guess is that it won't sell for that price, and it will drop to something more reasonable.

Then, six months later, they will go out of business, and Costar will make it for $150.

They have been bumping pre-order status for a while, it seems like they are sucking up money to recoup cost, who knows when they can actually afford to get it in production.  We will see in September

[Gerk]

I think they are trying to walk the edge of the highest price that people will pay for the board, citing all the design thought that went into it which makes it more boutique'ish.  If it lives up to expectations they can try and keep walking that line, but the other approach is that by the time you're done the second run or so and have a bit more confidence in the suppliers and the process (not to mention the product) and experience you drop the price a bit and cite "improvements in the process" and no one walks away angry.

Or not.

I just hope that they ship, period.  Anything after that is bonus at this point.  Lots of people are posting seemingly thinking they are "almost there" but honestly -- they are not.  They might have finalized all the bits and pieces needed and have some initial suppliers lined up but but they still need to be manufactured and there's a lot going on there.  Several kinds of housings and mouldings, keycaps, electronics, switches, cables, connectors, screws, assembly, testing, printing, packaging, etc etc ... there's a lot more to it than having a "completed" design and the test pieces in hand from suppliers and that it is looking good -- but that's a good step forward for sure.

It's a tricky game and while they may have crossed a hurdle until complete units built in production are in hand and verified to be "all that" ... well it ain't over 'till it's over.  Any one of those pieces and a dozen or more other factors that we probably don't even see can still put a kink in the chain anytime from now until the time that the units hit the street.

Now all that said, I still hope they get me on in my hands in Sep/Oct as things are alluding towards, but ... I won't be celebrating until the unit is actually in my hands.

[Arcanius]

Wait until March of next year, and you'll have a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in your hands.
That, or a Kinesis.

[Gerk]

Wait until March of next year, and you'll have a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in your hands.
That, or a Kinesis.

Or both :wof:

[Architect]

Here we go again ...

Code: [Select]


while ( true ) {
   print ("TE is a sham");
   print ("TE is stealing our money");
   print ("etc");
}


I wonder, just suppose for a moment that they deliver (I know this will be hard, bear with me), what will you guys do?

• Implode?
• Disappear?
• Offer a public apology for the continual defamation?

Probably not the last. The discussion will instead turn to dissing the 'boards I'm sure.

[sordna]

Architect, the main problem is the lack of credibility of the company. I personally think they WILL ship a keyboard, but apart from the continuous pushing of the date during the entire year, they put some obvious lies on their website:
1. The reviews, which are totally fake
2. The testimonials, which are totally fake
3. The claim that their keyboard is healthier than Kinesis/Maltron/Datahand, which is unsubstantiated and an outright lie

[Lanx]

Architect, the main problem is the lack of credibility of the company. I personally think they WILL ship a keyboard, but apart from the continuous pushing of the date during the entire year, they put some obvious lies on their website:
1. The reviews, which are totally fake
2. The testimonials, which are totally fake
3. The claim that their keyboard is healthier than Kinesis/Maltron/Datahand, which is unsubstantiated and an outright lie

This is pretty much why everyone has their own opinion on TE, is cause we call them out on their bull$hit. TE might be able to fool many of the laymen, some of the time, but they can't fool GeekHack, any of the time.

[jpc]

A company has never shipped a product. Random internet people say, "they might never ship something." That's defamation?

And people with pre-orders are early adopters. lol

The language on this thread is Orwellian.

[shrap]

Don't forget that Architect is the guy who posted a thread back in January 2011 listing the problems with the Kinesis and extolling the benefits of the TE. Except, of course, the TE didn't exist back then and still doesn't.

[Lanx]

Don't forget that Architect is the guy who posted a thread back in January 2011 listing the problems with the Kinesis and extolling the benefits of the TE. Except, of course, the TE didn't exist back then and still doesn't.

 
oh yea the TE Troll, i wondered why this guy spoke of TE like an unrequited love of old times. Please no more rom/coms i'm sure those of us who have to suffer through rom/coms have had enough this year.

[Input Nirvana]

Architect:
-It's not "Here we go again". It's "Here goes TE again"...can you argue that?
-I've been told something that turned out not to be true...can you blame ME for being cautious and skeptical?
-The 'company' in question has no track record (that's not a crime), no effective method of contact (that's not a crime), has not reached out other than generic form emails (that's not a crime), not honest on their website (that IS a crime) and when you add it all up....that's called a "TRACK RECORD".
-What will I do if they ship a keyboard? Check it out of course and evaluate it's positives and negatives just like every other keyboard in existence. The slams against TE are not about me or any disappointment I would have if they actually ship a board. It's about their ****ty methods of 'business' if you even want to call it that. If they were located in the U.S. they would be finished by now. Being an attorney I would have filed against them to flesh them out of hiding and see what's really going on.

One issue I have with one of your posts that has never sounded genuine is this: You shot down the Kinesis (which is fine, that doesn't bother me), which you say you've used for 10+ years. I can not replicate the issue you say you are having (that doesn't mean you're not having the issue). The TE website specifically uses the Datahand ($1000 and not available), the Maltron ($500 and somewhat hard to get), and the Kinesis ($300 and easy to get) as the footstep claiming their "imaginary board" is better. See the odd relationship I'm pointing out? Seems like a case is being made to align with and beat the Kinesis (which again would be great) but it's not based in any factual or substantiated information. TE needs transparency for any hope of legitimacy.

Sordna:
-Why do you personally think they will ship a board, even though everything cited in your post says it's a sham? I know that answer. You want them to ship a board because that's what they say they intend to do, and you believe the world is generally a nice place. No offense, but you, just like Architect, just like me, and anyone else, has zero credible information about TE and their intent or ability to produce the keyboard. That is the fact.

I WANT them to do what they said they would do. In this order: 1-Ship a board. -or- 2-Apologize and try to refund as much money as possible. -or- 3-Just shut down and go away. All facts point to either 1-scam, -or- 2-a failing business, -or-3-A weak, by the change-in-your-pocket operation, in that order.

[Lanx]

If TE didn't hold so many GH'ers money on deposit as leverage I wouldn't care if TE sank or swam, unfortunately because they have so many members of GH's money we just really want to them to succeed, cuz otherwise, they'd just chapter 11 and walk away with the pre-order money.

[Input Nirvana]

The truth of the matter is, anyone the sent money to TE is an "investor".

[Soarer]

Let's forget the delay for a moment.

Trouble now is the price - at a 10% or 20% premium over a 'standard' quality MX-based board, they could've sold an awful lot of units. At $250 they'll be lucky to sell a tenth the number. And the basic concept would be very easy to copy, by a competitor who could easily undercut that price. (It's pretty clear they wouldn't have the money to fight a patent battle, even if they had one).

[jpc]

The truth of the matter is, anyone the sent money to TE is an "investor".

The newspeak continues

[Input Nirvana]

Let's forget the delay for a moment.

Trouble now is the price - at a 10% or 20% premium over a 'standard' quality MX-based board, they could've sold an awful lot of units. At $250 they'll be lucky to sell a tenth the number. And the basic concept would be very easy to copy, by a competitor who could easily undercut that price. (It's pretty clear they wouldn't have the money to fight a patent battle, even if they had one).

I note on their website they don't show a photo of the Maltron finger layout they've copied. I'll provide it here:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25138[/ATTACH]

[Lanx]

just checked out their website again...
"The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is expected to last more than 10 times longer than other ergonomic keyboards and conventional keyboards, helping you save money in unnecessary future purchases."

they're back to making crazy claims again, somehow their cherry mx, will last 10x longer than a kinesis cherry mx i guess.

they have a pic of the maltron, it's in the gallery where they say that the maltron/kinesis/datahand are only healthy while the TE is healthier.

[Input Nirvana]

I saw the 3D Maltron on their website, not the 2D. I was trying to show the closest fingering layout has been done and patented in 2D, but fortunately TE changed the layout substantially enough to probably evade that issue. I like they layout TE proposes. I can accept the delays, my issue is purely the lies, and lack of transparency.

Lanx: Why are you such a non-believer in the 10X longer lifespan of their keyboard? It's also the healthiest. I mean, they said so, right? You should consider not questioning these things, you should be more trusting. Maybe Architect can tell us the how and why, then we can send them more money  lol

Don't forget...it's all about the money. Follow the money trail. That's exactly why there is a pre-order payment. It's about the money.

PING!

[Input Nirvana]

The newspeak continues

"If there is any hope to be had at all, it lies with the Proles."

[shrap]

Doublespeak aside, I would have liked TE to succeed. There might be a market at $150 between the $100 rubber dome Goldtouch/Freestyle and the cost-is-no-object Kinesis/Maltrons. But at $250 it's too close to the latter but those companies have actual products and customers.

[hella]

I actually really like staggering.  It gives the same layout and boardfeel as a non-split keyboard.  Straight-keyed split keyboards may look better but they feel off.

[sordna]

I actually really like staggering.  It gives the same layout and boardfeel as a non-split keyboard.

... which is a bad thing. The staggering is an artifact of the pushrod typewriters, and has absolutely no usefulness today, other than "it's what people are used to until they get used to something better".

Let's post this again, to show how insane the assymetric staggering is on a split board, and what unnatural movement the hand does, especially the left hand. Why both hands veer to the *left* when reaching for the upper rows of keys, is beyond me:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25145[/ATTACH]

Straight-keyed split keyboards may look better but they feel off.

Which such keyboards have you tried? They feel off the first day or two, after that they feel natural and it's way easier learning to touch type on them. I can put my Kinesis behind my back and still touch type it, because of the straight columns provide a much more predictable key location. I've also done experiments with vertical keyboards, the straight columns beat zig-zag staggering hands down.

[Input Nirvana]

In spite of my 1,500 posts over 2 years and off topic items, I'm here because I'm trying to find/make the best typing solution possible (for me). This is why the vast majority of my posts are about ergo, Kinesis, Datahand, Rollermouse, Alphagrip and other closely related input devices and items relating to building/creating/modifying ergo devices. Ergo is a little different for different people as well, not much though, we're mechanically very similar. The proposed TE layout is very notable, if they don't produce it, I'll scale and make it myself for every person that wants one. We need to advance the custom controller thread so we can program the board. Then we'll name it Geekhacks Revenge".

[sordna]

I want one, provided it is truly split (movable halves). Knowing you, it's a given it will be that way :-)

Another option I'm considering is replicate something like this:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25150[/ATTACH]

note the hand "shelves", truly awesome!

[Input Nirvana]

I wish I could see 2 or 3 more views of his mod. It looks very interesting with him having the keywell halves pivoting off the center section with the controller board still in it. Saved him doing a lot of pointless re-working which is very nice. The only potential drawback is the inability to alter the degree of tilt and distance of separation, which is not a deal breaker by any means.

On the TE proposed layout, where would the good layout (see Architect, here I go again, saying something NICE about it) be split...it will be something like a Utron (split) or Typematrix (not split).


EDIT---I added the TE rendering and a note about it's proposed nice layout in my Split Kinesis Mod article. This should make Architect happy:


"A proposed layout that has been circulating the web for a couple years (rendering only, non-production keyboard)."
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25155[/ATTACH]

[hyperq]

EDIT---I added the TE rendering and a note about it's proposed nice layout in my Split Kinesis Mod article. This should make Architect happy:


"A proposed layout that has been circulating the web for a couple years (rendering only, non-production keyboard)."

Show Image

I like this type of keyboard layout very much.  Lenovo, Dell, and HP should adopt it, and everyone else will follow.  Then we will finally be free from the traditional, un-ergo layout, which is originally designed for typewriters.

[Lanx]

I think it can be said that the ppl who care about mechanical/ergo are very far few and we know who those ppl are in GH, 99% of GH it seems is just happy with plain jane 104 key filco clone or 87key flico tenkeyless and the of those you have half going gaga over topre or hhk2.

Then there's like the ten of us, who actually really examine ergonomics, not the pseudo fake "mythical" ergonomics like
OH if it's not split, it's wrong
Or
Wrist pad will kill you

no we look at what ergonomics can do and work for us.

i mean there are a few of us who have examined ergonomics and used our own bodies as testing, i mean i don't want to speak for others but just recently i found out that microswitches are worse than cherry switches for me in using my mouse and found out cherry switches in mice are sublime. Who does that? what kind of person puts a cherry switch in a mouse? Someone who obseses over ergonomics and wanting to put theory to action

will my index finger hurt less if i use a cherry switch instead of the microswitch? trust me i spent weeks weighing the pro's and con's of possibly destroying a mouse i liked over testing out a theory, well no my index finger hasn't hurt ever since.

I'm not just talking about the modders and more to the point the ppl who mod just for ergonomics, but ppl who decide if this switch/ this keyboard will be right for their body.

These are the ppl who have looked at the TE, and go...

BS

[Input Nirvana]

All TE proposed items are off-the-shelf except:
1-case
2-wrist rest (optional)
3-2 or 4 keycaps
4-controller/firmware

This keyboard can be made in a week, with the exceptions of the 4 items listed above. The case (#1) and 2 or 4 keys (#3) can easily be improvised depending on how much someone wants to spend (Shapeways?). The controller (#4) it will depend on what features someone wants (HumbleHacker, Hasu?). So if people want a 90% TE board, we can make it. For gods sake, the damn thing is FLAT! Have switches from Mouser plate-mounted (or even switches TE did not propose), custom keycaps from WASD Keyboards, get the controller from one of the sources (with NO dip switches), and hand wire the thing like an $800 Maltron.

Then, TE can go screw themselves instead of screwing all of us. And if TE is really a legit company, they can come out of hiding and stop us.

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

PING!

[Oqsy]

What ping!?!???

[Input Nirvana]

Hey, it's a ping-a-bration!

You got a purty Ping! there Oqsy...

[Sam]

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

I actually would be quite interested in something like this, and probably have a lot of resources to help out.  The only problem is I'm completely swamped with my work at the moment and haven't had any time in months to work on my keyboard project I've started on my own.  Best of luck to you if you do decide to do something, and I'd certainly be up for buying at least one of the boards.  As you say, this isn't something terribly difficult to make for someone with the expertise.  If I was personally making a TE style board as an honest-to-goodness business and not just a hobby, I'd estimate I could probably have the thing designed and some working samples to beta test in under a month.  With full production within three months.  Not years as it's taken TE.  So what if the first production isn't perfect.  The people that want to use a TE are ones who want it for the ergonomics, not for looking pretty.  I couldn't care less if the case design was rough, or if it had a few minor problems, provided it allowed me to test out the ergonomic concept that they've proposed.  If you're designing something for the mass market, you have to take the time to get it as close to perfect as possible, or you'll get shot down immediately in the reviews.  Designing something like this for a niche market doesn't need such perfection.

[bpiphany]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25175[/ATTACH]