Author Topic: How do you feel about auction threads?  (Read 65620 times)

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Offline JaccoW

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:07:46 »
I love auctions, especially when he doesnt have the item yet.


me too

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50564.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49292.0

i mean paying for something the person doesnt have couldn't go wrong, right?
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My main problem with banning auctions and only allowing fixed prices is that it excludes people from different timezones. This already happened a few times with the Gasmask sales. The item comes online at 10 AM U.S. time but that is midnight in Australia and 17:00 in Europe. Lots of people there weren't able to buy any.
Sure it keeps the item within the community... but it also keeps the item within a certain continent.

Allow people to use E-bay auctioning and make them put their links in a special subforum.
But make it necessary for the e-bay link to link back to the topic on Geekhack. That way you will actually be able to draw in much more people to the forum and you can see their feedback.
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Offline digi

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #101 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:24:38 »
No one had a problem with auctions until the EK CC drawings, goodnight!

Oh, really?

On the subject of auctions, I have said before that I believe auctions should always be handled off-site. eBay has protections setup for buyer and seller, and their bidding system is well-known. GH as a forum doesn't have the resources to deal with auctions.

It's funny how this got started the DAY OF the EK CC drawing results. Lots of hate going around. :P

Where was this thread during all the "family crisis, my dog is sick" mega auction threads full of CC's over $300? I didn't see any auction complaint threads then?

Keep auctions in the classifieds, if people want to auction their stuff, let them. I've never hosted an auction, I don't see any problem with them. Prices of CC's will always be high until supply meets/exceeds demand.

This isn't a thread about auctions, it's a thread about clacks.

Offline ITzNybble

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #102 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:34:52 »
Take my opinion for what it is worth...I knew there would be backlash from what I did. I own that and will deal with it and everything that comes with it.


Do not allow auctions of any kind, no auction means only FS threads. This way the seller has to state the price they want and puts the power into the hands of the buyer.
The buyer with the best bid (lower than the asking price) or someone willing to pay the price stated by the seller, which ever comes first.

The issue is that will not fix the problem of CC flipping at all it would just remove auctions.
There will still be people who will flip the CC and just list a $200+ asking price. The problem is still relevant and will still cause drama.

The issue is the exclusivity of CC's. Why would someone spend more money on a key they can get for retail from a website, store, or ebay shop.

Now I am not blaming ClickClack in the slightest. As I said, I take all ownership of what I am doing.

I feel that removing auctions from the site is a good idea, it will minimize drama. Of course a non-profit auction should be allowed but should be approved before posting.
If someone wants to auction off an item they should use a 3rd-party application such as Ebay, It protects the buyer and seller which most if any forums does not.

I truly don't feel the issue is auctions though, ultimately the issue is drama created by users over specific items.

One might think then well just bann all sales/auctions/buys for said item that are not directly from the creator of said item. Which to me isn't that bad of an idea. Let ClickClack sell his own items if he chooses at his prices to GeekHack.

There would still be private sales but there is no way to police that and private sales have their own set of risks for buyer and seller. To me that would eliminate the most drama caused by CC's and their supply/demand issues.

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Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #103 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:05:16 »
So then...are we a flea market or a community?

Ignoring the fact the normal classifieds are more flea market like than auctions are, I don't understand the concept that these have to be mutually exclusive. It's fully possible to be an active and positively contributing member of the community and run auctions (and I don't just mean charity auctions and ****, I mean money grabbing clack auctions too), and it's possible  to be an active member and avoid financial transactions altogether. On the flip side someone can be a total douche with or without partaking in auctions.

Offline jwaz

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #104 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:17:03 »
No one had a problem with auctions until the EK CC drawings, goodnight!

That is entirely not true.

Offline dorkvader

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #105 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:46:11 »
I feel like the main problem with the threads we have been seeing latley is that these CC's are being auctioned off BEFORE THEY EVEN GET THE ITEM.

That means that they went into the purchase or lottery from Elitekeyboards with the intention of selling the item for a higher cost.
While this may be true for some of the sales here, you can't know this. If I bought a keycap and then crashed my bike (or broke a leg, etc) I'd have to come up with some cash in a hurry. I'd start looking for items I had that I could quickly sell for money (profit or no profit) and CC's fit the bill nicely. There are other less extreme situations, too. Like if you realize youve overspent your budget and your significant other is going to kill you when they get home, etc.

auctions are fine, its the attitudes that arent
This.  Auctions are NEVER a problem unless a Clack is involved, and usually only if its a newer member.  Nobody batted an eye when tsangan auction his Clacks off for $4k or whatever it was.
The way I remember it, there was much eye batting indeed.

My biggest problem is shaming the seller.  It is not the sellers fault that prices are so high on Clacks (and lets be real here, this is not a problem when the auction does not relate to clacks) it is the buyers.  If somebody is willing to pay $150 for it rather than $40, you are out of your mind to not take the higher offer.
I take the philosophical approach to a lot of issues, and there are a lot of moral systems that would allow for a person to only sell their item for the lesser value (while still profiting). Taking a rational (not empirical) approach to ethics (and possibly ending up with a Kant-esque ethical system) could easily lead to such an eventuality, for example.



I am interested in beefing up the "what's it worth" resources. How can we do this? If we have a listing at the end of a post saying what the item sold for (just not to whom) it would help as an easily searchable reference. Even strongly suggesting this (instead of requiring it) would make it easy. I'm sure there are other ways as well (big flat post with price history, DB with a frontend with pretty graphs, etc)

Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:53:20 »
would people really prefer fixed prices for CC?
Or would there still be the same butthurt going on?

I can say FS: Uber Rare CC $500.00 or PM me offer.

Do i expect $500?  Maybe, but what if someone gives me $450 and i take it, is that better?
Or are you looking for a chance to go "I PMed him offering him $50.00 and he wouldn't take it, what a douche"
what exactly gets accomplished here now that its a fixed price and not an auction?

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #107 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:56:51 »
would people really prefer fixed prices for CC?
Or would there still be the same butthurt going on?

I can say FS: Uber Rare CC $500.00 or PM me offer.

Do i expect $500?  Maybe, but what if someone gives me $450 and i take it, is that better?
Or are you looking for a chance to go "I PMed him offering him $50.00 and he wouldn't take it, what a douche"
what exactly gets accomplished here now that its a fixed price and not an auction?

I think they want all the CC's to be sold for $30  ::)

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #108 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:59:17 »
auctions are fine, its the attitudes that arent
This.  Auctions are NEVER a problem unless a Clack is involved, and usually only if its a newer member.  Nobody batted an eye when tsangan auction his Clacks off for $4k or whatever it was.  How about people mind their own ****ing business.  If someone owns the damn cap they have the right to sell it, and if someone wants the Clack so bad then they can pay what they want.  Supply and demand people.

It's really not difficult to figure this one out. tsangan is a moderator, right? Whoever says that they aren't treated differently is either stupid, naive, or simply in denial. I mentioned this in another thread, but part of the problem we're discussing has to due with the fact that some moderators are some of the biggest contributors towards this maximized profit auction culture. If even mods are doing it, who's going to show up during their thread and speak out in disgust? That person would be met with angry posts and would be outed as a troublemaker, etc.

Offline cgbuen

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #109 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:04:16 »
All the points here about moving auctions to eBay to fix this problem are just lying to themselves.
 Just look at all the threads in great find forums about clacks on eBay and people trying to figure out who the hell is the member selling the clack, or criticizing how expensive it is.

How could you construe my post lying to myself? I made little emphasis on how they affect how the community in general "feels" about them, but stated practical reasons of why this forum isn't a good use for them.

Offline MKULTRA

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #110 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:11:11 »
would people really prefer fixed prices for CC?
Or would there still be the same butthurt going on?

I can say FS: Uber Rare CC $500.00 or PM me offer.

Do i expect $500?  Maybe, but what if someone gives me $450 and i take it, is that better?
Or are you looking for a chance to go "I PMed him offering him $50.00 and he wouldn't take it, what a douche"
what exactly gets accomplished here now that its a fixed price and not an auction?

I think they want all the CC's to be sold for $30  ::)
That would be idiotic because the demand for them is so high.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:21:38 »
Quote from: Dorkvader
I am interested in beefing up the "what's it worth" resources. How can we do this? If we have a listing at the end of a post saying what the item sold for (just not to whom) it would help as an easily searchable reference. Even strongly suggesting this (instead of requiring it) would make it easy. I'm sure there are other ways as well (big flat post with price history, DB with a frontend with pretty graphs, etc)

How could you be sure that the truth was being expressed?

On the subject of auctions, I have said before that I believe auctions should always be handled off-site. eBay has protections setup for buyer and seller, and their bidding system is well-known. GH as a forum doesn't have the resources to deal with auctions.

I feel like the main problem with the threads we have been seeing latley is that these CC's are being auctioned off BEFORE THEY EVEN GET THE ITEM.

I don't think it matters whether the seller has possession of the clack (or any other item) -- the butthurt stems from the higher price that some people are unable to pay. Reducing butthurt at GH (regardless of whether that butthurted-ness is justified or not) is probably good for GH. If you end auctions at GH, you're not going to stop people from selling clacks at an inflated price. It will just go to eBay, or go to PMs, etc. This may reduce butthurt, which would be a good thing.

The one person who could stop this from happening is CF himself (or herself?) -- if CF made enough clacks so that most people could just buy one for $30-$40 at EK, no one would have to hit the lottery (or pay a high price). Or, CF could just make as many clacks as he makes now, and allow them to be sold at a price that would reflect the market -- who knows, maybe they would sell at $100, and the market would reach an equilibrium.

But because CF keeps the number of clacks (and their prices) artificially low, the market is distorted. Butthurt ensues.

I'm not saying CF doesn't have the right to make any quantity of clacks at any price he wants -- but there are consequences to their scarcity, and the price controls placed upon them by EK (or CF, not sure who decided they should be sold at ~$30). Maybe CF's process doesn't allow for larger runs? I don't know. Maybe CF enjoys seeing the raging hurricanes of butthurt that swirl around his works of art? I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't take even a little joy in seeing people agonize over something I crafted.

My biggest problem is shaming the seller.  It is not the sellers fault that prices are so high on Clacks (and lets be real here, this is not a problem when the auction does not relate to clacks) it is the buyers.  If somebody is willing to pay $150 for it rather than $40, you are out of your mind to not take the higher offer.

I completely agree with you, MK. There's no point in shaming someone for acting in a logical, self-interested way -- except for the sake of butthurt. I'd rather see CF either allow the prices of clacks to rise, or simply make more of them. I'd prefer to see the price simply rise, because I think if you had $4 clacks, then seeing an entire keyboard made of clack would water down the novelty.

There's a pizza place somewhere in Brooklyn in which the pizza is so frickin' good that the owner (who makes the pizza) comes in on Wednesdays with a set amount of pizza dough. He makes the pizzas, sells them at a market rate, and when his dough is used up, he closes. That's his choice.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:25:22 by Krogenar »
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Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:35:38 »
All the points here about moving auctions to eBay to fix this problem are just lying to themselves.
 Just look at all the threads in great find forums about clacks on eBay and people trying to figure out who the hell is the member selling the clack, or criticizing how expensive it is.

How could you construe my post lying to myself? I made little emphasis on how they affect how the community in general "feels" about them, but stated practical reasons of why this forum isn't a good use for them.

did I single you out?
Or just a generalization of the posts in this thread?
And what of my post is wrong?

Im just sayin from past experiences of eBay auctions linked in great finds:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49666.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45121.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38612.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39595.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34320.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34630.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34625.0

etc etc etc

Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:37:51 »
There's a pizza place somewhere in Brooklyn in which the pizza is so frickin' good that the owner (who makes the pizza) comes in on Wednesdays with a set amount of pizza dough. He makes the pizzas, sells them at a market rate, and when his dough is used up, he closes. That's his choice.

whoa whoa whoa, most important part, name and location plz

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:46:40 »
I'm of the opinion that, given that this community is still relatively small, and our moderators' time and number is not unlimited, it's best to start small.  Implement the most obvious simple changes and see how that goes first.  Before doing a global reorganization with some complicated changes suggested above, like adding a database of links of who sold each item to whom, etc.  There's probably no practical need to be extremely thorough, because the Classifieds mostly work fine already.
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Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:49:34 »
really it just comes down to butthurt in the end.
Banning Auctions but having set prices like my examples above will still cause people to complain about selling at high costs.
The only way to stop the people who are complaining is completely shutting down the classified section.
But even then they'll still reference different threads and ebay links about how people are ripping so and so off.

So its a no win situation.

Offline ekw808

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 12:56:06 »
Auctions on GH create more problems than they are worth. Only time they should be allowed are for donations to GH. No TW, EBAY or GTFO. And regarding what the value of rare/unique items are depends ENTIRELY on whose desire to own the product is strongest that day; highest price paid for a item does NOT determine the market price, there are no fixed prices in this niche market, only impulsive and impatient people. The marketplace is a benefit for being apart of this keyboard community, and since GH's primary purpose is not a marketplace for "young entrepreneurs", it should not be viewed as such.   
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Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #117 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:02:25 »
There's a pizza place somewhere in Brooklyn in which the pizza is so frickin' good that the owner (who makes the pizza) comes in on Wednesdays with a set amount of pizza dough. He makes the pizzas, sells them at a market rate, and when his dough is used up, he closes. That's his choice.

whoa whoa whoa, most important part, name and location plz

It was Una Pizza Napoletana, or something similar. It may have been in Manhattan, actually. But the point was, the guy just stopped making pizza when he ran out of dough. He didn't find an employee and say, "go get more dough, quick!" he just stopped making pizza for the day. I think it may have added to the allure of the place. Something similar is happening with the cronut craze. It's a goddamn donut, people. The problem here is that the market is being artificially distorted -- prices are being kept artificially low.
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Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #118 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:03:16 »
The only logical solution:

- Ban auctions. At first I didn't agree with this, but after reading some of the key points in this debate I have been swayed.
- Make it so all topics in the classifieds MUST be approved by a mod/admin before it is posted. Yes, it means more work for the mods, but it is the best way to weed out the profiteers (which seems to be one of the biggest issues here).  Mods will have total control over what constitutes an acceptable ad.  Make a designated mod team just for the classifieds if need be.

This is the best solution I can think of.


EDIT: Remember, this is an online forum. Your rights are limited by the forum rules, whatever they may be.  So the argument that "if you bought it you can sell it for whatever price you want" only applies if the rules say so.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:08:26 by Computer-Lab in Basement »
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Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #119 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:12:15 »
The only logical solution:

- Ban auctions. At first I didn't agree with this, but after reading some of the key points in this debate I have been swayed.
- Make it so all topics in the classifieds MUST be approved by a mod/admin before it is posted. Yes, it means more work for the mods, but it is the best way to weed out the profiteers (which seems to be one of the biggest issues here).  Mods will have total control over what constitutes an acceptable ad.  Make a designated mod team just for the classifieds if need be.

This is the best solution I can think of.


EDIT: Remember, this is an online forum. Your rights are limited by the forum rules, whatever they may be.  So the argument that "if you bought it you can sell it for whatever price you want" only applies if the rules say so.

i have to ask, where in the forum rules is selling for profit not allowed in classified?
Or is this just what a vocal minority of GH members want?
What would constitute profiteering?
Would anyone who wants to sell for profit require to be a vender?
Does vender status with a forum get around the profiteering aspect?

I honestly think we're (collective we) focusing way too much on trying to control sales.
Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales.

OR are we striving to further segregate the keyboard community more to those who want no sales for profit and those who do?
Will one side end up leaving GH and creating their own community?  I mean seriously now.

Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #120 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:13:22 »
There's a pizza place somewhere in Brooklyn in which the pizza is so frickin' good that the owner (who makes the pizza) comes in on Wednesdays with a set amount of pizza dough. He makes the pizzas, sells them at a market rate, and when his dough is used up, he closes. That's his choice.

And if he sold them for the most he possibly could, not a single (sane) person would petition to have him shut down.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #121 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:17:53 »
Make it so all topics in the classifieds MUST be approved by a mod/admin before it is posted. Yes, it means more work for the mods, but it is the best way to weed out the profiteers (which seems to be one of the biggest issues here).  Mods will have total control over what constitutes an acceptable ad.  Make a designated mod team just for the classifieds if need be.

IF they did that, what I suggest is having a boilerplate/template that everyone has to use when posting a sale.

Here is a really good example, you just fill out the form and it generates code for post.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/marketplace-faq-rules-guidelines/653883-buy-sell-trade-form-you-must-fill-form.html

and the selling requirements are worth looking at also

http://forum.notebookreview.com/marketplace-faq-rules-guidelines/538704-marketplace-rules-regulations-must-read-before-posting.html

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #122 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:18:22 »
really it just comes down to butthurt in the end.
Banning Auctions but having set prices like my examples above will still cause people to complain about selling at high costs.
The only way to stop the people who are complaining is completely shutting down the classified section.
But even then they'll still reference different threads and ebay links about how people are ripping so and so off.

So its a no win situation.

I think auctions encourage inflated prices because it enforces primitive competitiveness in us. It's a no-win situation, as you say, because the status quo of the classifieds has allowed for unchecked sales that have led to many complaints. Ideally, it would have been wise for the GH administration to implement strict guidelines for sales from the beginning. This would have socialized the members and future members into sensible selling.

However, the forum is not in this "ideal" and never will be. So, some work must be done towards putting in place a set of rules and encouraging a culture of sensible selling on the forum. By doing this, we can hope to come closer to this "ideal" and away from the horrendous, maximization-of-profit status quo.

Let me give you a scenario in which you state people will still complain about high prices.

Ex. 1 (auction-based system):
Seller wants to sell an item (a keyboard) in like-new condition that was initially purchased for $125. Instead of being sensible and simply setting a price of $110-$130 or so, the seller sets up an auction. Remember, we're in a community, right? Instead of selling this keyboard to a fellow geekhacker for a sensible price, the auction leads to competition over the item which logically raises its price to non-sensible levels.

So you may ask, what is the problem with selling to the highest bidder as long as that person is willing to pay for it? This practice creates ever-increasing prices for such items for future sales. Other potential sellers of a similar item will see that the identical keyboard sold for X amount of money (significantly more than the initial price) and will want to replicate this profit.

Ex. 2 (auctions forbidden)
Seller wants to sell an item (a keyboard) in like-new condition that was initially purchased for $125. The seller knows how much he or she paid for it initially and will price it accordingly -- somewhere within $110-$130. So, how does this sale differ from the auction sale? A prospective buyer will look at the sensible price tag and will either choose to buy or not to buy. If the price is sensible and the specific keyboard being sold is sought by many, then the keyboard would be sold within a relatively short time. Thus, competition still exists because the person who messages the seller the fastest usually wins. This form of competition does not artificially raise the price of the item for sale. However, this kind of sensible selling requires that members within the community will adhere to such a practice. That is why it is important for such a change to come from the top down: from the admin team -> elder members -> new members.

Offline hashbaz

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #123 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:19:33 »
I honestly think we're (collective we) focusing way too much on trying to control sales.
Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales.

This has been our philosophy historically.  Laissez-faire + caveat emptor.  It's a good policy in general, as krog will tell you at length.  I think auctions are an identifiable special case though, where abuse is possible and getting likelier as the forum grows.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #124 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:21:33 »
The only logical solution:

- Ban auctions. At first I didn't agree with this, but after reading some of the key points in this debate I have been swayed.
- Make it so all topics in the classifieds MUST be approved by a mod/admin before it is posted. Yes, it means more work for the mods, but it is the best way to weed out the profiteers (which seems to be one of the biggest issues here).  Mods will have total control over what constitutes an acceptable ad.  Make a designated mod team just for the classifieds if need be.

This is the best solution I can think of.


EDIT: Remember, this is an online forum. Your rights are limited by the forum rules, whatever they may be.  So the argument that "if you bought it you can sell it for whatever price you want" only applies if the rules say so.

i have to ask, where in the forum rules is selling for profit not allowed in classified?
Or is this just what a vocal minority of GH members want?
What would constitute profiteering?
Would anyone who wants to sell for profit require to be a vender?
Does vender status with a forum get around the profiteering aspect?

I honestly think we're (collective we) focusing way too much on trying to control sales.
Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales.

OR are we striving to further segregate the keyboard community more to those who want no sales for profit and those who do?
Will one side end up leaving GH and creating their own community?  I mean seriously now.

You fail to see my point here... and if you had read some of jdcarpe's earlier posts, you would understand the differences between profiteering and vending.

And with all due respect, stop thinking so black-and-white about this. "Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales." This is such a horrible mentality on the situation. Take away an important forum feature entirely, just because a few people are abusing it for profit? I feel like a majority of people who use the classifieds are responsible and respectable sellers. So why make them suffer?

To put it in simpler terms: if something is broke, fix it. Don't throw it away just because you don't feel like dealing with it...
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

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Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:23:14 »
There's a pizza place somewhere in Brooklyn in which the pizza is so frickin' good that the owner (who makes the pizza) comes in on Wednesdays with a set amount of pizza dough. He makes the pizzas, sells them at a market rate, and when his dough is used up, he closes. That's his choice.

And if he sold them for the most he possibly could, not a single (sane) person would petition to have him shut down.

Eh, this is NYC, there's always someone who wants to shut you down because Socialism told them to. But yes, I agree. People would say, "$16 for a slice of pizza? Um, no thanks." But there are people crazy enough to pay, however. That's also their choice. Oh, and the guy apparently moved to San Francisco. Check out his hours. "Wed-Sat, 5pm - out of dough" I'm sure San Franciscans fall all over one another to get a slice. And Lo, There Was Much Butthurt.

What about ignoring the butthurt, instead of banning all auctions, banning the marketplace, or reconstructing eBay on GeekHack? I still think jdcarpe's plan of putting auctions offsite is the next best option. Ordinary transactions don't seem to bother people as much as auctions. I don't agree with people's reasons for being butthurt, but I still feel badly that they are butthurt. :(
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:23:45 »
Ex. 2 (auctions forbidden)
Seller wants to sell an item (a keyboard) in like-new condition that was initially purchased for $125. The seller knows how much he or she paid for it initially and will price it accordingly -- somewhere within $110-$130. So, how does this sale differ from the auction sale? A prospective buyer will look at the sensible price tag and will either choose to buy or not to buy. If the price is sensible and the specific keyboard being sold is sought by many, then the keyboard would be sold within a relatively short time. Thus, competition still exists because the person who messages the seller the fastest usually wins. This form of competition does not artificially raise the price of the item for sale. However, this kind of sensible selling requires that members within the community will adhere to such a practice. That is why it is important for such a change to come from the top down: from the admin team -> elder members -> new members.

And butthurt still ensues because now people have to be the fastest.

"I can't be expected to watch this site all day. I have a life..." |:

Offline CommunistWitchDr

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #127 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:24:54 »
Thus, competition still exists because the person who messages the seller the fastest usually wins.

While I'm more or less neutral to auctions, I REALLY hate the "first come first served" method. It gives a serious disadvantage to non-us based buyers. In my sale threads I usually make people include a joke when they want to buy something and then evaluate them based on joke quality rather than time.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #128 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:27:42 »
Case in point.

Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #129 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:31:04 »
The only logical solution:

- Ban auctions. At first I didn't agree with this, but after reading some of the key points in this debate I have been swayed.
- Make it so all topics in the classifieds MUST be approved by a mod/admin before it is posted. Yes, it means more work for the mods, but it is the best way to weed out the profiteers (which seems to be one of the biggest issues here).  Mods will have total control over what constitutes an acceptable ad.  Make a designated mod team just for the classifieds if need be.

This is the best solution I can think of.


EDIT: Remember, this is an online forum. Your rights are limited by the forum rules, whatever they may be.  So the argument that "if you bought it you can sell it for whatever price you want" only applies if the rules say so.

i have to ask, where in the forum rules is selling for profit not allowed in classified?
Or is this just what a vocal minority of GH members want?
What would constitute profiteering?
Would anyone who wants to sell for profit require to be a vender?
Does vender status with a forum get around the profiteering aspect?

I honestly think we're (collective we) focusing way too much on trying to control sales.
Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales.

OR are we striving to further segregate the keyboard community more to those who want no sales for profit and those who do?
Will one side end up leaving GH and creating their own community?  I mean seriously now.

You fail to see my point here... and if you had read some of jdcarpe's earlier posts, you would understand the differences between profiteering and vending.

And with all due respect, stop thinking so black-and-white about this. "Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales." This is such a horrible mentality on the situation. Take away an important forum feature entirely, just because a few people are abusing it for profit? I feel like a majority of people who use the classifieds are responsible and respectable sellers. So why make them suffer?

To put it in simpler terms: if something is broke, fix it. Don't throw it away just because you don't feel like dealing with it...

i offered my plan by banning all auctions and setting rules similar to OCN/Notebook Forums/EVGA on selling on the forums.
But again this doesn't stop someone from listing a clack for sale at $300.

The same people who are complaining about the auctions of clacks will attack that sell thread saying he's overpricing the clack, taking advantage of so and so, etc.

This problem really comes down to how Clacks are viewed in this forum.  Some people view it as a quick cash grab.  Others view it as art that should be preserved and saved within the community and not to the outsiders.  And there are even others that see the rarity of clacks and view it as an investment.

I don't see many people complaining about Auctions for Korean Custom Keyboards or Keysets.

Either way, i'm just saying if this is causing such a headache, remove the problem.  There's no 100% fix that'll make everyone happy.  And if people still *****/moan about it, use the nuclear option and just take away everything.  If you can't play nice, you dont' get nice things

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #130 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:31:46 »
Let's just say you can't sell anything for money! Everything is free!!  ::)

But shipping and handling fees apply  ::)

AND all sales have to be open for a week and everyone gets to vote on who gets the chance to buy something.  ::)

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #131 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:32:40 »
And butthurt still ensues because now people have to be the fastest.

"I can't be expected to watch this site all day. I have a life..." |:

Yes, but wouldn't you agree that this "butthurt" would be drastically less than what is going on now? I would much rather lose out on a potential purchase because I was not viewing the forum at the time of the sale than due to insensible pricing of items.

Thus, competition still exists because the person who messages the seller the fastest usually wins.

While I'm more or less neutral to auctions, I REALLY hate the "first come first served" method. It gives a serious disadvantage to non-us based buyers. In my sale threads I usually make people include a joke when they want to buy something and then evaluate them based on joke quality rather than time.

Not all sellers are US-based nor are all buyers, but I can see what you're getting at. However, I still feel that the current system allows for way more irregularities in just sales than one that would prohibit auctions. I've never really missed out on a purchase because I was not browsing the forum at the time. But, then again, I don't purchase much compared to some of the more extravagant buyers. At the end of it all, I can still envision less people being "butthurt" because they missed out on a sale than by not buying due to outrageous prices.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #132 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:32:59 »
After having read different viewpoints and read how it works on other forums, I think that auctions should be disallowed on the site but that "FA-threads" with links to auctions on eBay/marketplace.nl/Tradera.se etc. should be allowed.
Not because it is the most fair, if people are following the rules, but because it would be the easiest to manage.
🍉

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #133 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:33:49 »
Let's just say you can't sell anything for money! Everything is free!!  ::)

But shipping and handling fees apply  ::)

AND all sales have to be open for a week and everyone gets to vote on who gets the chance to buy something.  ::)

Ray, I like the way you think :thumb:

Too bad everyone would only vote for themselves :(
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

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Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #134 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:34:15 »
I honestly think we're (collective we) focusing way too much on trying to control sales.
Either do away with them altogether, or deal with the sales.

projectD -- agreed. People's buying and selling of keyboard and keyboard-related things is a part of the community, and trying to control it all would mean making good people like Hash and Mashby (these two may be two halves of the same Internet-spanning A.I. -- can't be sure) into police officers, and they don't deserve that, or want to do it.

This has been our philosophy historically.  Laissez-faire + caveat emptor.  It's a good policy in general, as krog will tell you at length.

(As door slams in Krog's face)
"Will you at least take some of my literature?"
(SLAM)
 :)

Quote from: hasbaz
I think auctions are an identifiable special case though, where abuse is possible and getting likelier as the forum grows.
They seem to generate more butthurt than other transactions. But how would they be very different from someone posting a declared price, and then slowly bumping the price downwards until someone bites?
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
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Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #135 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:35:01 »
After having read different viewpoints and read how it works on other forums, I think that auctions should be disallowed on the site but that "FA-threads" with links to auctions on eBay/marketplace.nl/Tradera.se etc. should be allowed.
Not because it is the most fair, if people are following the rules, but because it would be the easiest to manage.

And people still profit. And people still ramble about it in the thread. Nothing will change.

Do you see how eBay auctions go when someone posts it here? That's exactly what will happen if an eBay link for a Clark is posted. It's been seen before.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #136 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:36:25 »
.

Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #137 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:38:09 »
After having read different viewpoints and read how it works on other forums, I think that auctions should be disallowed on the site but that "FA-threads" with links to auctions on eBay/marketplace.nl/Tradera.se etc. should be allowed.
Not because it is the most fair, if people are following the rules, but because it would be the easiest to manage.

And people still profit. And people still ramble about it in the thread. Nothing will change.

Do you see how eBay auctions go when someone posts it here? That's exactly what will happen if an eBay link for a Clark is posted. It's been seen before.

i linked a ton of examples in the previous page (i have my thread count setup so its on page 4 i think)
Quote
Im just sayin from past experiences of eBay auctions linked in great finds:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49666.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45121.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38612.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39595.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34320.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34630.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34625.0

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #138 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:38:26 »
So if sales require mod approval do mods either get dibs? or are not allowed to participate?

or better yet pm their friends with a heads up to buy  :o

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #139 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:38:58 »
They seem to generate more butthurt than other transactions. But how would they be very different from someone posting a declared price, and then slowly bumping the price downwards until someone bites?

Unfortunately, what you're describing is something called a Dutch Auction and an example of it just happened recently. The CC sold for $120, but the money was donated to GH. Still, this method is still an auction and should only be allowed for charity/donations.

Offline Michael

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #140 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:41:39 »
You could always create a 'make auction thread' type of thing, where people can only input a number into a field to place their bid. No comments will be allowed. It could then tally the highest bids per item (each item will be assigned a number, and the person(s) bidding will select that number item + field to input amount). Then at the end (when OP ends auction using the end auction function) it will list the winners automatically.


In other words, it will be a completely automated process.



Offline IPT

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #141 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:41:39 »
So if sales require mod approval do mods either get dibs? or are not allowed to participate?

or better yet pm their friends with a heads up to buy  :o

course, i mean why else be a mod?  Its a thankless job

You could always create a 'make auction thread' type of thing, where people can only input a number into a field to place their bid. No comments will be allowed. It could then tally the highest bids per item (each item will be assigned a number, and the person(s) bidding will select that number item + field to input amount). Then at the end (when OP ends auction using the end auction function) it will list the winners automatically.


In other words, it will be a completely automated process.




so a blind auction?  Where the final price wouldn't be revealed?
You realize how much butthurt would go on?  People already freak out when you delete items in your sell thread instead of leaving up the prices lol

Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:49:44 »
They seem to generate more butthurt than other transactions. But how would they be very different from someone posting a declared price, and then slowly bumping the price downwards until someone bites?

Unfortunately, what you're describing is something called a Dutch Auction and an example of it just happened recently. The CC sold for $120, but the money was donated to GH. Still, this method is still an auction and should only be allowed for charity/donations.

But I see this all the time -- someone lists a keyboard for $200, and a week goes past and then they drop the price to $190 and mark "(price drop!)" in red, bolded text next to the item photo. Then they wait to see if someone will pay. That happens all the time, and no one complains. They wait until the item comes to a price that they accept and then they PM their offer. These sales don't generate the kind of butthurt we're seeing from the clack sale auctions. Someone said earlier, "this isn't about auctions, it's about clacks." They're right.

At least with an auction the item being sold goes to the person who will get the most "utility" out of the item, no matter what their timezone. Moose is right that the butthurt will never go away -- not until the artificial price ceiling on clacks are dropped, or CF increases the supply. Also, I find it somewhat funny that auctions are bad, evil, and shouldn't be allowed -- unless it's a charity auction, those are okay! Why are they ok, exactly?

What about making every forum member supply basic proof of identity, so that if they abuse the market, they cannot just create a new account and start over. This would make fraud less likely.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:52:48 by Krogenar »
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #143 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 13:55:05 »
They seem to generate more butthurt than other transactions. But how would they be very different from someone posting a declared price, and then slowly bumping the price downwards until someone bites?

Unfortunately, what you're describing is something called a Dutch Auction and an example of it just happened recently. The CC sold for $120, but the money was donated to GH. Still, this method is still an auction and should only be allowed for charity/donations.

But I see this all the time -- someone lists a keyboard for $200, and a week goes past and then they drop the price to $190 and mark "(price drop!)" in red, bolded text next to the item photo. Then they wait to see if someone will pay. That happens all the time, and no one complains. They wait until the item comes to a price that they accept and then they PM their offer. These sales don't generate the kind of butthurt we're seeing from the clack sale auctions. Someone said earlier, "this isn't about auctions, it's about clacks." They're right.

At least with an auction the item being sold goes to the person who will get the most "utility" out of the item, no matter what their timezone. Moose is right that the butthurt will never go away -- not until the artificial price ceiling on clacks are dropped, or CF increases the supply.

You're right about the forced price dropping. I recently sold an imsto PBT set for $50 shipped while it retails for $95 via feng. I didn't want to bother bumping endlessly like poor Beast, who I believe has still not sold his imsto PBT set while being listed for around $10-$20 less than the retail price. This is a problem, yes, but this problem also a product of the selfishness that naturally plagues sales. That is why rules must be put into place that will socialize current and future members of the forum to sell AND buy at sensible prices.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:02:06 »
They seem to generate more butthurt than other transactions. But how would they be very different from someone posting a declared price, and then slowly bumping the price downwards until someone bites?

Unfortunately, what you're describing is something called a Dutch Auction and an example of it just happened recently. The CC sold for $120, but the money was donated to GH. Still, this method is still an auction and should only be allowed for charity/donations.

But I see this all the time -- someone lists a keyboard for $200, and a week goes past and then they drop the price to $190 and mark "(price drop!)" in red, bolded text next to the item photo. Then they wait to see if someone will pay. That happens all the time, and no one complains. They wait until the item comes to a price that they accept and then they PM their offer. These sales don't generate the kind of butthurt we're seeing from the clack sale auctions. Someone said earlier, "this isn't about auctions, it's about clacks." They're right.

At least with an auction the item being sold goes to the person who will get the most "utility" out of the item, no matter what their timezone. Moose is right that the butthurt will never go away -- not until the artificial price ceiling on clacks are dropped, or CF increases the supply. Also, I find it somewhat funny that auctions are bad, evil, and shouldn't be allowed -- unless it's a charity auction, those are okay! Why are they ok, exactly?

What about making every forum member supply basic proof of identity, so that if they abuse the market, they cannot just create a new account and start over. This would make fraud less likely.

On the identity thing, I witnessed an auction the other day where a brand new joined just to post in auction bidder bumped up the price very quickly and then a regular member out bit them auction over....how do we know it wasn't shill bidding???

I mean what better way to drive up the price of your sales.

Offline Krogenar

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #145 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:08:24 »
You're right about the forced price dropping. I recently sold an imsto PBT set for $50 shipped while it retails for $95 via feng. I didn't want to bother bumping endlessly like poor Beast, who I believe has still not sold his imsto PBT set while being listed for around $10-$20 less than the retail price. This is a problem, yes, but this problem also a product of the selfishness that naturally plagues sales. That is why rules must be put into place that will socialize current and future members of the forum to sell AND buy at sensible prices.

If when you say socialize, you mean more talking, more communication about prices and items, and how to value them, then I agree completely. Maybe there could be a thread dedicated to answering people's questions about pricing, with a writeup on how to determine what something is worth, what to look for (shine on keycaps, etc.). There will always be people willing to pay an absurd price for something, and so the butthurt will always be with us. Maybe a thread for market discussions would be good -- like Cap's FAQ thread, but about pricing and the marketplace?

Quote from: Ray
On the identity thing, I witnessed an auction the other day where a brand new joined just to post in auction bidder bumped up the price very quickly and then a regular member out bit them auction over....how do we know it wasn't shill bidding???

I mean what better way to drive up the price of your sales.

Right, that's a market abuse, to use sock puppets to generate a fake bidding war. And hey, why not toss in a one-time, $1 processing fee to cover the cost of checking your identity? GH makes some money (win) and the marketplace is a little more secure (win). Do you bristle at the idea of paying $1? The only people who are allowed to participate in the market are people who are willing to pay the fee and supply the information. So if all you want to do is talk, no fee required. More communication, more safety, more accountability, that's all good for the market. But it would never relieve the anguish of knowing someone else won the EK lottery, and now they're selling it for a (gulp) profit! So butthurt will always be around.
« Last Edit: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:16:44 by Krogenar »
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Quote from: Samuel Adams
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:17:18 »
I agree with a fee to buy/sell and some sort of ID check verification!

Offline Binge

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:21:05 »
Geekhack is not made to handle auction based sales... I also don't think the users should shoulder the social implication of being part of the place where CCs are auctioned for far more than gold holds value in weight.

IMHO I don't care if a CC sells for 10,000 on ebay.  eBay is just that-- an auction site.  I really don't even care if it was listed here.

Lets just understand for a moment that most of us who care about this place do not like the CC auction/profiteering.  It is a sour subject-- If there needs to be compromise let the jerks have a place where they can list their e-bay auctions and not let it poison the classifieds with a bunch of "I'm not a douche but I really want to make money off of someone else's art so bidding starts at X" threads.

I stand by my initial statement that geekhack should sanction all auctions posted on the site.  Great-finds or otherwise.  Auctions have been mentioned numerous times as being used to drive up prices through competition.  The kind of competition that does very little good for people in this sort of a place.

60% keyboards, 100% of the time.

"What the hell Jimmy?!  It was ruined before you even put it up there with your decrepit fingers."

Offline sth

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:30:38 »
ban all auctions
ban all clack sales via classifieds
ban profiteers

* sth goes back into hibernation :blank:
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline keymaster

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Re: How do you feel about auction threads?
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 06 November 2013, 14:34:02 »
You're right about the forced price dropping. I recently sold an imsto PBT set for $50 shipped while it retails for $95 via feng. I didn't want to bother bumping endlessly like poor Beast, who I believe has still not sold his imsto PBT set while being listed for around $10-$20 less than the retail price. This is a problem, yes, but this problem also a product of the selfishness that naturally plagues sales. That is why rules must be put into place that will socialize current and future members of the forum to sell AND buy at sensible prices.

If when you say socialize, you mean more talking, more communication about prices and items, and how to value them, then I agree completely. Maybe there could be a thread dedicated to answering people's questions about pricing, with a writeup on how to determine what something is worth, what to look for (shine on keycaps, etc.). There will always be people willing to pay an absurd price for something, and so the butthurt will always be with us. Maybe a thread for market discussions would be good -- like Cap's FAQ thread, but about pricing and the marketplace?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean by "socialize". For other users who are reading my posts, socialization is "the means by which social and cultural continuity are attained".

The current state of affairs within the classifieds is the direct result of a lack of guidance, of socialization by the admin staff. The result of unchecked sales practices is apparent now more than ever.