RECO: ~70% keyboard for VIM

[gcb]

I'm either on VIM or doing CAD, browsing forums. VIM requires typist keyboard and easy to access modified keys (and CAPSLOCK customizing). cad and forum browsing requires typist keyboard and easy access to mouse. as well as standard L_ and R_ keys for the shortcuts i'm already familiar.

I'm looking for a keyboard with

• - easy ESC, CAPS, CTRL keys
  
• - easy backspace, ideally with clear space on right of it (for example, i remove the HOME keycap on all my thinkpads to hit backspace easier)
  
• - backtick and tilde keys
  
• - ideally ergo (my current ones are all microsoft natural) but not essential.
  
• - easy pg up/down
  
• - easy INS key (also OK if achieved trhu reprogramming, but must be able to do SHIFT+INS with one hand... it is paste on UNIX)
  
• - bonus points if CAPS can be configured as extra CTRL or extra ESC
  
• - lots and lots of bonus points if CAPS can be configured as: pressed with another key=CTRL, pressed and release alone, ESC
  (this is how i configure my CAPSLOCKS on software)
  
• - R_CTRL and R_ALT_Gr
  
• - arrows are nice, not essential. can also be achieved with fn+other keys
  
• - menu key is nice, but not essential
  
• - Fkeys are nice but not essential. I will probably get them because all keyboards that have backtic/tilde have F row.
  
• - customizable switches (i like red all around, clear on special keys). but not essential (remember, i currently use membrane
  
• - full sized caps.
  
• - not essential, but PS/2 connectors are preferred. I have lots of old junk i use from time to time.
  

(besides reco for the keyboards, let me know if any of those requirements on my list are retarded for some reason)

my current picks, but i'd love to increase the pool size!!! suggest anything!
I'm only listing the bad things under each model. the less the better


- vortex race II
crap r_shift!
crammed backspace
weird sized keycaps.
no dedicated INS key, but has the easiest FN+DEL of the lot, i can probably press it with one finger.


- noppoo choc mini
weird profile (too tall on back from pics)
crammed backspace


- matias mini quiet pro
initially looked on matias ergo pro. but it has no easy INS and no R_anything other than R_ALT
the mini looks OK, though i never used their alps clones.
no menu key. INS key via FN.


- keycool 84
case may be glued. big no.
odd reviews. some love, some say are cheap junk with clone switches.
crammed backspace


- DSI modular
has too much wasted space on the sides, and some useless volume keys. but has a USB2 hub


WASD CODE TKL


runner ups:
- keyboard.io, waiting to see what they offer
- deck82. dumped for no tilde/backtick key.
- matias ergo pro. too much R_keys missing. same flaws as matias mini.
- ergo dox. only reason i'm avoiding this is because i know i will spend $2000 customizing and then months fine tuning the firmware and keymap...
- http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721.0 but same problems as above.
- http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54998.0

This thread is pretty much an expansion of http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43529.0

[user 18]

When I read this, first thing that jumped to mind was ergodox, but I guess you've dismissed that.

Next thing that might be worth looking into is a QFR or filco TKL and doing some switch swaps and possibly a controller swap to achieve the programmable functionality you want. WASD Code TKL might be worth looking into as well, with its dip switch options. All three boards are only slightly larger than the keycool 84, but offer a lot more functionality.

The biggest problem with looking for a keyboard smaller than a TKL is they mostly tend to have nonstandard layouts and sizes, missing keys (such as your R_Ctrl, R_Alt_Gr), or other compromises to fit into a small form factor space. The particular 70% form factor you're looking at is not very popular at all -- most people who are looking for that set of keys go for a TKL instead. I might be able to think of something more if you can shed some light on why you need something smaller than a TKL?

[gcb]

When I read this, first thing that jumped to mind was ergodox, but I guess you've dismissed that.

Next thing that might be worth looking into is a QFR or filco TKL and doing some switch swaps and possibly a controller swap to achieve the programmable functionality you want. WASD Code TKL might be worth looking into as well, with its dip switch options. All three boards are only slightly larger than the keycool 84, but offer a lot more functionality.

The biggest problem with looking for a keyboard smaller than a TKL is they mostly tend to have nonstandard layouts and sizes, missing keys (such as your R_Ctrl, R_Alt_Gr), or other compromises to fit into a small form factor space. The particular 70% form factor you're looking at is not very popular at all -- most people who are looking for that set of keys go for a TKL instead. I might be able to think of something more if you can shed some light on why you need something smaller than a TKL?

The only reason i want the to be around the 70% format is because i use the mouse/trackball a lot... half of my VIM usage is for webdev work, so i'm going back to browser a lot to click things. my current dream setup would be dampened alps swtiches on Microsoft Natural layout with the middle leds removed and a Kensigton trackball placed there   my second alternative is a 70% format... but now you made me rethink if maybe i need a intermediate keyboard (read: future sacrificial donor for switches)... the WASD Code TKL is now moved into the list! but i will probably only go for it if i can find it much cheaper than the almost $200 is seeing... the ones on my list do not miss much keys from a TKL.

[divito]

I've been searching for something similar since I arrived in the mechanical keyboard world, and have gone through the same list myself. Another option that was brought to my attention that you might consider, is the Cooler Master TK:



It's full-size features in an almost TKL size.

[user 18]

long shot, but found this one while googling:

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-soft-tactile-cherry-mx-brown-keyswitches-207-english

Expensive and nontraditional layout, but it might work for you?

Also, I know of at least one person who has modded a microsoft natural board to use MX switches.

One thing I'd be considering: If you're happy with the layout and functionality of the TKL form factor, I'm pretty sure it's at most an inch and a half wider than the 70%, and a quarter inch deeper. Still gives you an extra 3+ inches of space over a 104-key, and more than that coming from a curved ergo board like the natural. How big is your trackball, and how far apart are your shoulders?

@divito: OP is looking for something smaller than a TKL. QFTK also has pretty bad build quality compared to other CM boards. It's not the same OEM as the QFR and their others.

[gcb]

It's full-size features in an almost TKL size.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think i have no use for the numpad (ever since i quit playing descent

When i saw those 90% formats at first i considered... and then realized that the only time i use the numpad, is when i middle-mouse-button-paste a url in the browser, then i hit ENTER from the num pad with my thumb

long shot, but found this one while googling:

https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard-soft-tactile-cherry-mx-brown-keyswitches-207-english

Expensive and nontraditional layout, but it might work for you?

I've seen it. it was in my list originally. I killed it for not having WIN/META keys. and for the pg up/down being too away from either the arrows or the VIM keys (hjkl)... i'm usually looking at somebody elses code with my left hand either holding my chin or scratching my head so i need navigation all on one side.

also i'm weary of too weird keyboards. used for a couple of months one of those.... forgot the name now, with two concave areas for the keys... and even with lots of hardware and software programing, it was never good for me. ...i would like to give that one a try like i did with the other, but unless i also get it for a couple months for free, i'm too cheap  to buy it.

Also, I know of at least one person who has modded a microsoft natural board to use MX switches.

One thing I'd be considering: If you're happy with the layout and functionality of the TKL form factor, I'm pretty sure it's at most an inch and a half wider than the 70%, and a quarter inch deeper. Still gives you an extra 3+ inches of space over a 104-key, and more than that coming from a curved ergo board like the natural. How big is your trackball, and how far apart are your shoulders?

i still haven't settled for a pointing... my desks now have a cheap microsoft intellimouse on the left and a kensigton orb on the right (on linux boxes) or a logitech trackman wheel (on windows, just because it can't emulate 3button mouse, and that is the only downside of the orb)..both roughly the same small size. I go for the left mouse when typing and just have to click something quick. but my right hand is too dominant so i have to take it all over the mile long MS natural too often. that is why i wanted to solve that for good and go for the smallest form factor i'd be comfortable with. Of course i'd be more satisfied with more keys but the key is finding the best compromise.

i should probably measure it properly but my shoulders are narrow. They aren't wider than the MS natural for sure and i usually type from a desk with the keyboard way down. or rarely, standing up. can't use armrests and keyboard trays for the life of me.


--edit:

dammit @user18. now you let me thinking if i'm looking at the right solution for my problem....

found this one now. basically a full keyboard with the useless stuff on the left haha. maybe a left-heavy-TKL is what i need...? or maybe even a left-heavy-microsoft-natural

[user 18]

If I'm making you think, I'm doing my job right

I've seen that board. I can say it's that specific board because the person who was looking for such a 'lefty' board couldn't find another one to save their life. There are other non-mech boards in the reversed form factor like that, but they're all that non-ergonomic rectangle shape AFAIK.

I used to use one of the old naturals (back when they were beige) a dozen or so years ago. Grabbed it out of the garage and measured. It's 21 inches wide. Going to a full size rectangle saves you just under 4 inches. A TKL board, as said above, saves just over 3 -- 7 inches shorter than a natural keyboard. (Measurements may vary for different models.)

If we align two of my boards, for instance my CM QFR and my old dusty Natural, so that the left hand homing position is the same for both boards, I find that about an inch of that 7 inches is on the left side of the boards, rather than the right. Basically, I get 6 extra inches of space on the right side. Personally, smack in the middle of that is where I like to hold my mouse. My shoulders, from joint centre to joint centre are 12-14 inches apart, my hands rest naturally at 16 inches apart. This puts my mouse (or your trackball) 3-4 inches from the right side of the keyboard, or about in the middle of the number pad for the Natural. I have space to the right of that mouse for another mouse, in the space where I'd have a mouse (or a trackball) in the space where the mouse would be on the Natural.

The reason I write all of this is because I truly believe that a TKL form factor is worlds more functional than the 70% layout, which I find more reminiscent of the keyboard on my old Dell laptop. Personally, I always had the feeling that, while it was good for a laptop, I missed having something just a bit bigger.

Now, if your shoulders are narrower than mine, you may find you need even more extra space than I do on the right of the board. Attached is an image of the setup I'm talking about. If you feel you need more space than it demonstrates, my next recommendation would be something like the keyboard in your post above, rather than going to what I've personally found to be a cramped form factor.


Vertical rulers are all roughly parallel. Horizontal ruler is 6" in length. Wooden vertical ruler is aligning left hand homing positions between keyboards. Sorry about the potato shot.

E: Wow that makes my QFR look tiny. Most QFRs are about 1/8-1/16" bigger in all dimensions due to the case. That QFR has its case off because I'm modding it, but it's otherwise indicative of the size of an average ANSI/ISO TKL board.

[gcb]

Wow. thanks man. i'm impressed. Not only you had the exact keyboard i'm using but also had a ruler the exact length the difference of the two keyboards

hum, maybe not the exact same.. mine is 18in and does not have the coiled cable.

shoulders are 41mm or ~16in from center joints.

so, my rationale to go with the smallest width is... i use the natural right now exactly where it is on your desk.... i put my elbows on the desk. the natural help my hands be a part a little... with the non-natural format, my hands will be even more centered, so that will tend me to push the keyboard even further. with the keyboard even further back on the desk, even the small distance of the arrow keys is amplified by the arc the arm has to execute...  maybe i'm just being nuts.

i should probably get a few used keyboards and see which one i like best... for a total of $100 on craigslist i see i can get both a  TKL mx blue and a 70% alps... maybe i should just test instead of imagine

[user 18]

Wow. thanks man. i'm impressed. Not only you had the exact keyboard i'm using but also had a ruler the exact length the difference of the two keyboards

hum, maybe not the exact same.. mine is 18in and does not have the coiled cable.

shoulders are 41mm or ~16in from center joints.

so, my rationale to go with the smallest width is... i use the natural right now exactly where it is on your desk.... i put my elbows on the desk. the natural help my hands be a part a little... with the non-natural format, my hands will be even more centered, so that will tend me to push the keyboard even further. with the keyboard even further back on the desk, even the small distance of the arrow keys is amplified by the arc the arm has to execute...  maybe i'm just being nuts.

i should probably get a few used keyboards and see which one i like best... for a total of $100 on craigslist i see i can get both a  TKL mx blue and a 70% alps... maybe i should just test instead of imagine

You do not want to know what manner of things live in my garage

Definitely trying is the best way to pick what you like for sure, as long as you can mentally separate the form factor from the switch.

One more recommendation: Try the TKL MX blue first. My guess is that you'll be happy with it, and you may not even care to look for another keyboard after that. Blues are pretty amazing, particularly as a typist switch (general opinion, ymmv). I personally only made myself a board with clears because I'm still in university, and have a position on campus which requires me to live in dorm-style residence beyond first year. People complained about how loud my keyboard was last year

[gcb]

One more recommendation: Try the TKL MX blue first. My guess is that you'll be happy with it, and you may not even care to look for another keyboard after that. Blues are pretty amazing, particularly as a typist switch (general opinion, ymmv). I personally only made myself a board with clears because I'm still in university, and have a position on campus which requires me to live in dorm-style residence beyond first year. People complained about how loud my keyboard was last year

Lol. same situation. My love switches are old alps and even buckling spring... so i'm sure i'd like the blues even though i never used them. But because i like to code at night on occasion, my wife forbid them in the house. they are not even allowed in the garage. i settled with an old dampened alps (SGI graphite), but even those were forbidden.. i doubt the MX blues or brows would survive longer here. i do plan to have them on a few keys tho. just because i like to live dangerously.

but well, if i like the layout, maybe i just invest in new tops...

[user 18]

Browns aren't loud -- not any louder than clears or rubber domes, at any rate.

[davkol]

ErgoDox. ErgoGP, when it comes out. End of story.

It allows superior workflow with thumb clusters, layers and dual-role modifiers. There's no going back.

[gcb]

The problem with the ergodox and ergo* is that if i sit down, order the parts and take the time to assembly one, i'd also going to believe i can take the time to design my (better) own. and that would set me back thousands of dollars and several months... and as much fun as it seems, i can't afford it


i'm now trying to decide which cheap TKL i'm going to waste <$100... trying to decide based on the plate so i can re-use it with decent switches if i like it... i'm seeing lots of chinese generic ones that have a good looking one. just can't tell if metal or plastic :/

e.g.
http://www.amazon.com/Shogun-Bros-Cross-Mechanical-Keyboard/dp/B008TN8A5M/ref=sr_1_4?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1399279439&sr=1-4
http://www.amazon.com/ZALMAN-Mechanical-Keyboard-ZM-K500-Tenkeyless/dp/B00AYR0NA6
v7, etc... there are tons just like that. all with equally disposable switches

if those are metal i'm probably going to get one, otherwise will buy anything i can find on CL...


---
edit:

they are metal http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36652.msg700488#msg700488

but have an odd stabilizer solution. so probably not going to happen. will have to scour CL next week.

---
edit 2:
i'm a moron (and amazon search is a worthless @*#$¤³@#*$)... the CM QF model user18 suggested is around the same price... ~$80 (~$100 for new model with less ugly) and i can pick the MX type and has prime...
...now just decide if browns or reds...

[davkol]

You can have it assembled. czarek offers both partial and complete assembly service in Europe (and ships worldwide) and I'm pretty sure you could find someone here to do it for you as well.

ErgoGP ought to come only without switches or fully assembled too.

[user 18]

CM QFR is a very solid board for the price (I have two, one I kept with stock blues, one I modded to clears).

Regarding reds vs. browns, switch choice is very personal, and those two types are very similar -- so similar that I couldn't tell the difference the first time I used a switch tester    If you're going to bottom out the switches (and you probably will, as rubber domes pretty much have to be bottomed out to actuate, so I'm sure that's what you're used to), browns have been described as "scratchy reds." Now that I have a bit more experience with only depressing the switch to the actuation point, I find I just slightly prefer browns for typing, as I bottom out a bit less with them. But I do believe the MX red QFRs have that lovely red plate....

[Pacifist]

Show Image

- keycool 84
case may be glued. big no.
odd reviews. some love, some say are cheap junk with clone switches.
crammed backspace

It looks like KC is going towards the cheap junk area nowadays. But if you get anything pre 2014 it will have genuine cherry and pretty good build quality.
Case is not glued. It is a two piece design with the sides that latch onto the bottom. No screws, but no glue

[tricheboars]

dismissing the ergodox is a mistake. a big one.

they are not very hard to build at all. hell it is kind of fun. and you can make it whatever the hell you want it to be.  any switch you want, any layout etc.

it is the end game keyboard. it is everything you want in a board with a community that is obsessed with it. my full hand with clears is my daily driver right now. it is so smooth and awesome. plus the ergonomics of it are genius.  matrix layout with movable halves makes it ideal for long typing sessions.

also the ladies love it.  they will swarm to your coding prowess in awe and grace.  you will be knee deep in thick rimmed coder ladies who want to 'feel your caps'. 

also as someone who owns a qfr. i really dont like that board anymore. the build quality is alright at best and i hate costar stabs. 

[davkol]

they are not very hard to build at all. hell it is kind of fun. and you can make it whatever the hell you want it to be.  any switch you want, any layout etc.

That's what OP fears, if I understand it correctly.

Anyway, I can't wait for the Axios/ErgoGP/whatever. Funding campaign starts in two weeks!

[hjkl_over_wasd]

Heavy Vim user chiming in.
I just wanted to share how I solve several of the problems you present.

I've just purchased a Poker II and I am so utterly happy with it. I am getting used to a few quirks with regards to the occasional arrow key as well as having to choose between left and right FN or only right FN with mod4/win-key on the left.

I have dual-role caps-lock key via the brilliant piece of software: xcape and the X11 setting where caps-lock is ctl, but emits the keycode of caps-lock.

Since that frees up my esc key, I can remap that to the `~ key which I currently do with xmodmap commands.

This is my script for setting up the dual-role and mappings:

Code: [Select]

xmodmap -e "keycode 9 = grave asciitilde"
xmodmap -e "keycode 49 = Escape"
$HOME/bin/xcape -e 'Caps_Lock=Escape'I would love to have custom mappings and dual-role definitions in the firmware, but this can only be done with a teensy controller and that open sourced firmware that's available.

For browsing, I use the amazing plugins Pentadactyl or Vimperator for FireFox. Chrome has something similar, but it doesn't even come close to what either of those two plugins can do. Either of these plugins allows me to stay on home row and browse webpages really fast. Often a lot faster then with regular browsing with the mouse.

Whenever I'm typing in a text field, I just hit ctrl-i and an instance of gvim pops up instantly with whatever text I already might have had typed out in the text field. When I hit ZZ in normal mode, it all gets pasted back into the text field. I am doing this right now while I'm typing this post.

While in Vim, I'm not hampered by the 60% layout one bit and just enjoy the amazing feel of typing on my Poker.

I didn't know shift-insert was the shortcut for paste in a *nix-os, but I've always used shift-ctrl-v in gnome-terminal or konsole.

You probably have other reasons for not wanting a 60% board, but I though I'd at least share my experiences, which I hope will make it easier for you to find a setup that works for you.

Good luck.

[iLLucionist]

Browns aren't loud -- not any louder than clears or rubber domes, at any rate.

Indeed, I find my Browns at least as quiet as, let's say, my MacBook Pro internal keyboard.

[Fragil1ty]

I'd personally go with the Noppoo or the KC84, I've got both, although I prefer the Noppoo, it's just a better design in my opinion, but here's a quick run down on their features and what not;


KC84:

• 2 piece design (not glued)
• Sturdy construction
• Metal backplate
• PBT keycaps
• (Non backlit, if you can find one, quite rare these days, I have one back from 2013).
• detachable mini usb

Noppoo Choc Mini:

• Good design and layout of the keys
• No metal backplate though
• The side lettering on the keys fades away really quickly, so be cautious
• POM keycaps (I prefer pom, but it's a personal preference)
• ctrl2cap function key built into the keyboard
• (the pre 2014 model has been known to have debouncing issues after a while, so be cautious, only buy the newer model)
• attached cord, but you can find noppoo's with detatchable cords. (not sure how good these versions are though)

I have these keyboards in browns and red variants and one thing that i've noticed and it's quite troubling is that for the most part on the red board (noppoo), I do make a lot more mistakes in comparison to other boards, e.g. browns and orange boards that I own. I think this is down toa few factors, my typing speed, the keyswitch and the keyboard, just keep all of this in mind, but personally? i'd go for the noppoo or the kc. I've been using the Noppoo for about 1.5 years and only had to replace it once so far because of a debouncing issue and I think that's rather good to be honest.


Good luck with your decision.

[user 18]

Suddenly so many people!

@fragil1ty: What did you do to cause side print lettering to fade? I wouldn't imagine anything rubbing against it or anything of the sort....

[gcb]

Heavy Vim user chiming in.
I just wanted to share how I solve several of the problems you present.

I've just purchased a Poker II and I am so utterly happy with it. I am getting used to a few quirks with regards to the occasional arrow key as well as having to choose between left and right FN or only right FN with mod4/win-key on the left.

thanks! but i do not want to enter soft modifications on this thread... i would bore you guys so much half the board would delete their accounts. Suffice to say, i maintain a repository of custom Xmodmap and other Xinput manipulators (Xautomation package on most distros) that i share on all machines i work on. On windows, i have an autohotkey script that emulates the same thing (plus some mouse issues like using trackball buttons for scroll, etc)

...that is why i think in the end, even a programable keyboard will not free me from much. I mentioned it on the requirements as nice to have (extra points) but in the end I know i will never be able to abandon software hacks.

I do plan a tinsy bridge. ie a PS/2+USB input to a PS/2+usb output that has a microSD card with all my config in a simple txt file and allow for mappings on how many levels i want in keyboard or mouse i will have time to make it eventually! right?

While in Vim, I'm not hampered by the 60% layout one bit and just enjoy the amazing feel of typing on my Poker.

I didn't know shift-insert was the shortcut for paste in a *nix-os, but I've always used shift-ctrl-v in gnome-terminal or konsole.

yeah, linux has two clipboards. it is a blessing and hell at the same time.

If you select something and ctrl+C, it will be in the your active clipboard. paste with ctrl+v

now, anytime you HIGHLIGHT something with the mouse, it will be in the X original clipboard. you will notice that if you activate another window, it will leave the non-focused highlight. it you highlight some other text on the next window, now that text is on X clipboard, and the non-focused highlight on the previous window disappear. Now you can paste it with shift+INS. It is convenient when you want to copy a url to paste on another browser but still have your text in the ctrl+v buffer. Also very handy to just double click a hostname in some ssh session, move to another one and shift+ins o middle click to paste. ...and then you go to widnows and you just highlight something change programs and wonder why the damn thing wont paste...  btw, in windows shift+ins works just like ctrl+v.

ok, i will stop now. i told you i should not start in this topic... :/

Btw, also curious how side lettering can fade!

As for my selection.... i decided to wait a couple weeks to see if the desire for a 60% really passes and i settle for a TKL instead for good. Meanwhile i ditched the Natual and am working on the nasty laptop keyboard that is very close to a 60% but with Fkeys... which thinking about now, would be the perfect solution. one extra row with half height keys for the F and INS, etc...   the keycaps crazies will probably want to shoot me now but i still think it is an elegant solution.... anyway, i'm forcing myself to not use the top extra row to see how much i dislike or like 60% but it is being painful to focus on the layout and ignore those torture devices they call membrane with scissors... actually, that is a fitting name for a torture device.

thanks for all suggestions and opinions. They are highly valued. i'm just bummed that there is no definitive VIM solution considering everyone and their mother has the VIM green keycap.... apparently everyone that is crazy enough to think about it is also crazy enough to buy a ergodox damn temptation.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

...that is why i think in the end, even a programable keyboard will not free me from much. I mentioned it on the requirements as nice to have (extra points) but in the end I know i will never be able to abandon software hacks.

Why is it that you think that firmware will not be able to fix all your custom mappings and behavior?

I do plan a tinsy bridge. ie a PS/2+USB input to a PS/2+usb output that has a microSD card with all my config in a simple txt file and allow for mappings on how many levels i want in keyboard or mouse i will have time to make it eventually! right?

This sounds extremely interesting. Do you have instructions for making one of these? It sounds like the perfect thing to have.

yeah, linux has two clipboards. it is a blessing and hell at the same time.
If you select something and ctrl+C, it will be in the your active clipboard. paste with ctrl+v

now, anytime you HIGHLIGHT something with the mouse, it will be in the X original clipboard. you will notice that if you activate another window, it will leave the non-focused highlight. it you highlight some other text on the next window, now that text is on X clipboard, and the non-focused highlight on the previous window disappear. Now you can paste it with shift+INS. It is convenient when you want to copy a url to paste on another browser but still have your text in the ctrl+v buffer. Also very handy to just double click a hostname in some ssh session, move to another one and shift+ins o middle click to paste. ...and then you go to widnows and you just highlight something change programs and wonder why the damn thing wont paste...  btw, in windows shift+ins works just like ctrl+v.

ok, i will stop now. i told you i should not start in this topic... :/

If you have X running, you can run gvim in terminal mode, which should let you have access to the clipboards. I believe they're under the * and + registers. Do:

Code: [Select]

:reg
to see your registers and their content.

[gcb]

If you have X running, you can run gvim in terminal mode, which should let you have access to the clipboards. I believe they're under the * and + registers. Do:

Code: [Select]

:reg
to see your registers and their content.

That is for all kinds of VIM (e.g. cterm and gui), even including VI. and that is *besides* all that i talked about X clipboards.

[Fragil1ty]

Suddenly so many people!

@fragil1ty: What did you do to cause side print lettering to fade? I wouldn't imagine anything rubbing against it or anything of the sort....

Absolutely nothing brother. I just used the keyboard as a I normally would, it's strange how it erodes so quickly. I play a lot of games and what not, I do a lot of typing. (web developer + gaming, not the best combination, maybe?)

[user 18]

Suddenly so many people!

@fragil1ty: What did you do to cause side print lettering to fade? I wouldn't imagine anything rubbing against it or anything of the sort....

Absolutely nothing brother. I just used the keyboard as a I normally would, it's strange how it erodes so quickly. I play a lot of games and what not, I do a lot of typing. (web developer + gaming, not the best combination, maybe?)

Side print lettering shouldn't fade like that, it doesn't matter what you're doing to it.

Pad printing fades because of your fingers rubbing against it, and the oils and such in your hand reacting with the pad. Front print shouldn't have that problem to any extent at all, really. Other printing methods shouldn't really fade at all unless you go at it with a dremel or something. Is this a known issue with the noppoo keyboards?

[sulonen]

Maybe I missed it (most likely I did) but was there a reason you avoided the HHKB? It addresses a variety of your concerns, and I thought it was odd that someone using VIM as much as you do hadn't considered this board. I find the HHKB very enjoyable, for all the reasons generally mentioned about it. I use the Pro 2 (without the "silent" mod) and find that it fits my workflow very well.

Good luck with your hunt - I know how tricky it can be to find just the right thing.

[user 18]

Maybe I missed it (most likely I did) but was there a reason you avoided the HHKB? It addresses a variety of your concerns, and I thought it was odd that someone using VIM as much as you do hadn't considered this board. I find the HHKB very enjoyable, for all the reasons generally mentioned about it. I use the Pro 2 (without the "silent" mod) and find that it fits my workflow very well.

Good luck with your hunt - I know how tricky it can be to find just the right thing.

I'm not the OP, but I'm guessing it's because it doesn't have separate `/~ and esc keys.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

If you have X running, you can run gvim in terminal mode, which should let you have access to the clipboards. I believe they're under the * and + registers. Do:

Code: [Select]

:reg
to see your registers and their content.

That is for all kinds of VIM (e.g. cterm and gui), even including VI. and that is *besides* all that i talked about X clipboards.

Technically the clipboard registers aren't available through pure terminal Vim. If you have that, it's because your distro has packaged Gvim and Vim together and aliasing 'vim' to 'gvim -v'.

I would love to see your xmodmap bindings as I have a really hard time understanding how to properly remap everything. Please share them on a gist or paste somewhere.

[iLLucionist]

If you have X running, you can run gvim in terminal mode, which should let you have access to the clipboards. I believe they're under the * and + registers. Do:

Code: [Select]

:reg
to see your registers and their content.

That is for all kinds of VIM (e.g. cterm and gui), even including VI. and that is *besides* all that i talked about X clipboards.

Technically the clipboard registers aren't available through pure terminal Vim. If you have that, it's because your distro has packaged Gvim and Vim together and aliasing 'vim' to 'gvim -v'.

I would love to see your xmodmap bindings as I have a really hard time understanding how to properly remap everything. Please share them on a gist or paste somewhere.

Hmm... on OS X I have a little "fix" in my vimrc to make the clipboard work with OS X and I installed vim using homebrew. But it's different for linux?

[spiceBar]

Maybe you should try this:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

[gcb]

my Xmodmap

I currently am not able to do that with only xmodmap. the reason is this http://www.jwz.org/xkeycaps/man.html#13  I'm using something different on all 4 boxes i have... not happy with any of them. the least worse for now is using the Xautomation package, and making copious use of system wide shortcut keys mapped to crappy shell scripts using `xte` for generating the key codes i need.

another solution is something like this http://git.adirat.com/carpalx-keyboard/src but using kernel hacks for capslock=esc/control... i doubt anyone else would apply my patches to their kernel for that. and i hate to re-apply patches every time i upgrade a kernel (which happens every week now with modern distros. damn kids)

ironically, on windows it is a little better. not because i'm happy with my current solution, but because there is only one option so i settled for a autohotkey script that goes like

Code: [Select]

CapsLock::Send {esc}
CapsLock & a::Send ^a
CapsLock & b::Send ^b
CapsLock & c::Send ^c
....
it is ugly as hell, but sort of works. the down side is that esc on the capslock takes some time to register... so i'm often loosing the beginning of my commands in vim... sigh. if anyone knows how to get rid of that delay...

another thing i do is map L_WIN+hjkl to arrow keys... but for the life of me i don't know how to disable WIN+L shortcut in win7 to NOT lock the screen. so that sucks.

now, back on topic

Maybe you should try this:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

That is awesome. dammit. now i'm devouring the docs on ps/2/usb converters... and you are right, that may be the solution before i pull the trigger on a ergo* build. i think we may have a winer. heck i can even improve my use of the ms natural until i decide on a keyboard with that thing. now off to research ...dammit, that was what i was trying to avoid 

[hjkl_over_wasd]

my Xmodmap

I currently am not able to do that with only xmodmap. the reason is this http://www.jwz.org/xkeycaps/man.html#13  I'm using something different on all 4 boxes i have... not happy with any of them. the least worse for now is using the Xautomation package, and making copious use of system wide shortcut keys mapped to crappy shell scripts using `xte` for generating the key codes i need.

another solution is something like this http://git.adirat.com/carpalx-keyboard/src but using kernel hacks for capslock=esc/control... i doubt anyone else would apply my patches to their kernel for that. and i hate to re-apply patches every time i upgrade a kernel (which happens every week now with modern distros. damn kids)

ironically, on windows it is a little better. not because i'm happy with my current solution, but because there is only one option so i settled for a autohotkey script that goes like

Code: [Select]

CapsLock::Send {esc}
CapsLock & a::Send ^a
CapsLock & b::Send ^b
CapsLock & c::Send ^c
....
it is ugly as hell, but sort of works. the down side is that esc on the capslock takes some time to register... so i'm often loosing the beginning of my commands in vim... sigh. if anyone knows how to get rid of that delay...

another thing i do is map L_WIN+hjkl to arrow keys... but for the life of me i don't know how to disable WIN+L shortcut in win7 to NOT lock the screen. so that sucks.

now, back on topic

Maybe you should try this:
  http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182

That is awesome. dammit. now i'm devouring the docs on ps/2/usb converters... and you are right, that may be the solution before i pull the trigger on a ergo* build. i think we may have a winer. heck i can even improve my use of the ms natural until i decide on a keyboard with that thing. now off to research ...dammit, that was what i was trying to avoid 

Thank you so much for sharing. Would you know how to get your kernel patches working on system V?

[gcb]

Thank you so much for sharing. Would you know how to get your kernel patches working on system V?

lol


...btw, just got a MX blue CM that i will leave at work (where i don't have the noise problem).. after 2h deliberating on springs after i saw they also offer green ones. sigh. what is going on with the world and all the options lately. last time i was into keyboards i was luck to find one mechanical option in big stores.....anyway, user18, contact amazon for your 10% commission. 


edit:
in case i laughed at something that wasn't a joke, just take a look at source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbkbd.c and you will see,, even if you don't know C, how to 'reprogram' your keyboard (assuming you have a USB one)... anyway, it is late and i'm pretty sure it was a joke and i'm just making an ass out of myself.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

in case i laughed at something that wasn't a joke, just take a look at source/drivers/hid/usbhid/usbkbd.c and you will see,, even if you don't know C, how to 'reprogram' your keyboard (assuming you have a USB one)... anyway, it is late and i'm pretty sure it was a joke and i'm just making an ass out of myself.

No problem. I was serious though, but I should rather have asked: Does this patch work on sysV?

[gcb]

oh sorry. I'm not sure what you mean by SysV... i thought it was a joke because from what i understand from "system V" is something that nobody should still be using for some 20 years

...now i realize you must mean some of the HPUX, AIX, etc? well, I have no experience with those. Barely used them as a lowly user. sorry.

[katushkin]

Old Keycools don't have clone switches. If you can find an old one, then you will get Cherry.

Also the case is not glued. I am a massive fan.

[hjkl_over_wasd]

oh sorry. I'm not sure what you mean by SysV... i thought it was a joke because from what i understand from "system V" is something that nobody should still be using for some 20 years

...now i realize you must mean some of the HPUX, AIX, etc? well, I have no experience with those. Barely used them as a lowly user. sorry.

System V is what Arch Linux had up until last year when they switched to SystemD. I'm on Slackware and they don't seem to want to change for any reason.

[gcb]

Old Keycools don't have clone switches. If you can find an old one, then you will get Cherry.

Also the case is not glued. I am a massive fan.

having got the CM QF Blue TKL to use at work... (and not being 100% happy with) ... i'm now considering the keycool/noppoo choch (they are the same as far as i can tell, for now...choc only have more retarded volume/INS key placement) and the the matias mini quiet pro for home use.

what I'm mostly disliking on the CM QF is that it does not have a Fn+fake_numpad... the first day doing expense reports was hell I will fix that with RWIN+fake_numpad in autohotkey later...  on the other hand, the keycool and noppoo choc do not have RWIN for all my soft hacks.... i think i will end up with the matias... but it is damn expensive and i'm weary of buying the switches that i never tried (even though everyone claims they are similar to my favorites one --dampened alps) ...the only thing on the matias that i can miss just by looking at it is an easy ctrl+home/end that i use a lot.


---

just added another one to the list: http://imgur.com/a/rqFbT
KBParadise V60

it is impossible to find for sale, specially because now i want the matias quiet switches hahaha V60MTS model


If they moved the arrow keys to VIM hjkl or at least with left being on the tactile J i'd be sold.... Also pg up/down home/end closer to the FN keys for more frequent usage wouldn't hurt.

[Oobly]

There's the Poker 2, fully programmable 2nd layer. You can then set the programmable Pn layer to be the Fn layer.

I am working on a 2nd prototype for my keyboard design. If it works out well, I'll be doing a limited run of them to sell to GH'ers. Also working on easy-to-use software to program the layouts with a nice GUI which will be able to flash them to the board easily, too. Should be able to set any key to any function, with 4 layers of characters / functions. But it will still be a while, lots of things to work out / test before going to production.

[gcb]

There's the Poker 2, fully programmable 2nd layer. You can then set the programmable Pn layer to be the Fn layer.

I am working on a 2nd prototype for my keyboard design. If it works out well, I'll be doing a limited run of them to sell to GH'ers. Also working on easy-to-use software to program the layouts with a nice GUI which will be able to flash them to the board easily, too. Should be able to set any key to any function, with 4 layers of characters / functions. But it will still be a while, lots of things to work out / test before going to production.

GUIs are dangerous. it is a sure way to depend on a lot of software that will be completely impossible to run in some 5yrs. just look at all the chinese GBA flash carts  and such :/

if you are using a teensy, may I suggest upload a simple text file? ... maybe a key combination to enter usb mass storage... not sure how easy that is on the teensy, but it is what i'd do

back on topic...
i'm trying to find the manual on the poker II... can't find it... some things i'm thinking i'd like to do:

1. Fn+hjkl = arrow keys. (fn+h is some useless bullcrap by default, can be changed?)
2. page up/down, home/end are already perfect.
3. ESC = `/~ (without modifiers, is it possible?)
4. CAPSLOCK = ESC (that i can do in software easy on any platform...)
5. alternate layout with fake numpad. (can i toggle an alternate value for the keys without pressing fn/pn?)

i think doing those things would solve all my problems.

Edit: the ktb pure has almost all of that
1. fn+ijkl for arrows... not vim, but close
2. page up/down home/end also perfect
3. can't remap esc, but `/~ is on the right... i can see myself using it... i think.
4. caps->esc. probably not programable at all. so software it is.
5. there is a num lock key... what the heck does it do?
ah... but i can only find the pure pro for sale. which is total rubbish... dammit.

[gcb]

i tried to find the KTB pure or pure pro in mx blacks and failed. the two places that sell that board only have switches i can't use. also no other info on that v60...  so while i was debating on a keycool84 mx black vs a matias mini quiet pro i saw a massdrop for the ergodox kit and bought it on a impulse. dammit. $200 gone. now i'm going to spend another $100 on wrist pads... then already jumped in on the galaxy ergodox keycap group buy, because well, now i have a reason, ...argh, i don't even have the damn board it is already a money pit...

[hjkl_over_wasd]

@gcb
I don't think you're supposed to program the fn layer, it's the pn layer that's programmable.

1. Enter programming mode.
2. Hit the key you want to program.
3. Hit the key chord(s) you want your key to perform.
4. Hit Pn.
5. Exit programming mode.

Now you hit pn+key to activate the binding, or if you're going to be using hjkl for a while, just type fn+right-shift to lock the PN layer.

F.eks: programming pn+j to be the down arrow.
1. Hit fn+r_ctrl.
2. Hit j.
3. Hit fn+s.
4. Hit. pn.
5. Exit programming mode. I think it's the same as activating (fn+r_ctrl).

I also managed to properly configure xkb settings for my Poker II, allowing esc to be `~ as well as using xcape for dual role crl/esc on the caps-lock key: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58529.msg1336905#msg1336905

I think it might work for OSX as well, but I'm not sure. I'd love to know for a fact.

[gcb]

@gcb
I don't think you're supposed to program the fn layer, it's the pn layer that's programmable.

1. Enter programming mode.
2. Hit the key you want to program.
3. Hit the key chord(s) you want your key to perform.
4. Hit Pn.
5. Exit programming mode.

Now you hit pn+key to activate the binding, or if you're going to be using hjkl for a while, just type fn+right-shift to lock the PN layer.

thanks. i found a few scans of the manual online... from what i read, it seemed i could also do:
1. enter programing mode with Pn key
2. press INITIATING_KEY: which can be a fn+key, so we press fn+j
3. press MAPPED_TO_KEY: down arrow key.
4. hit Pn key

that way i could press fn+j to be down arrow in any application... etc.

The only thing the manual does not mention, is that fn+h is already mapped during programming to change the wait period. but it mentions that function only when pressing the second key sequence (e.g. Pn+ctrl, A, hellow,fn+h,world, Pn). there is no word if that would fail it as the first key sequence, the initiating_key.

[Oobly]

You can actually set the Fn key to be a Pn key, so you don't need to map Fn+key to something. You just program the Pn layer using the keys you want to assign and then switch the Pn and Fn keys with a DIP switch.

Poker 2 with MX Blacks and PBT caps: http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/shop-mechanical-keyboard-by-br/kbc-poker-2-61keys-mechanical-/lid=35050923

If you're on Windows, you could also try this for creating a custom layout on any board: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=22339

[gcb]

You can actually set the Fn key to be a Pn key, so you don't need to map Fn+key to something. You just program the Pn layer using the keys you want to assign and then switch the Pn and Fn keys with a DIP switch.

Poker 2 with MX Blacks and PBT caps: http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/shop-mechanical-keyboard-by-br/kbc-poker-2-61keys-mechanical-/lid=35050923

If you're on Windows, you could also try this for creating a custom layout on any board: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=22339

i see. that makes sense. thought i would have 2 keys doing the same... on a 60%... but still, that would probably work ....

let's see. i just ordered the ergodox from massdrop. will assemble it and give it a go before.

[Naweo]

Does the DSI modular keyboard work for windows?

[polpo]

I use vim all day long and have used the Matias Quiet Pro, KeyCool 84, and Noppoo Choc Mini extensively (more than a year of use at my job on each). Honestly, they're all great boards for vim. I don't mind the insert key being on a Fn layer, as R goes into replace mode in vim. I am more of a fan of the Matias switches, which are indeed quieter than Browns. But switches are more of a personal preference.

I didn't know about newer KeyCools having clone switches. I should probably sell my old one because I don't use it any more.

[captain]

I find the best configuration is a Race foam-taped over the builtin keyboard of my Air.  Great key layout for vi and for OSX stuff--command and option keys on BOTH sides!!  :-D   Any mousing around is a quick thumb to trackpad and back to home keys. When I have to use a mouse, I choose a Filco TKL with superlight vintage Wyse keycaps and a Corsair supermouse.

Oh, and there is no substitute for MX Blues!  Get the wife some earplugs, or play her favorite music loud enough to drown out the beautiful click clack of those tactile switches!  ;-)

Good luck gcb!