Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam

[The Solutor]

FYI, "piccione" is pigeon in English.

 
Thanks, I'm used to wrote quickly an then correct the errors. Even when I'm writing in Italian.

This time I missed the second pass.

[The Solutor]

Is it possible to pull all key caps and then unmount the metal plate without soldering?

No.

[redpill]

This time I missed the second pass.

You're forgiven.

As long as you get me into Sicily whenever I want

[The Solutor]

You're forgiven.

As long as you get me into Sicily whenever I want

My gran mother managed to host 150 Americans in 1943, shouldn't be a great problem for me doing the same for just one or two...:usa2:

[keyboardlover]

Geekhack meetup in Palermo?

Just make sure you don't eat the bananas there!

(Bonus points if you get the film reference.)

[The Solutor]

[video=youtube;o557MqBBWkE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o557MqBBWkE[/video]

[keyboardlover]

Haha nice you got it!

Great movie.

[Thebonuslevel]

Hey to the original poster, where did you get the PBT engraved keys for your filco?

[morethanless]

Obviously here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16260-PBT-104-keycaps

[alaricljs]

Obviously here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?16260-PBT-104-keycaps

Or here:  http://www.tankguys.com/site-merchandise/overclock-net-pbt-cherry-black-black.html  (currently out of stock tho)

[redpill]

Yep I managed to snag a set from TankGuys before they went out of stock.  Nice keys!

[sordna]

Could you post some more pics of the mod? Like showing the edges from the sides, where both the plate and PCB are visible, also a pic of the entire top (out of the case, without keycaps), and the entire bottom?

[Thebonuslevel]

Yeah, the reason I asked is because on Tankguys the only ones they have for sale are the Ducky Mini ones that definitely are not 104.

[redpill]

Could you post some more pics of the mod? Like showing the edges from the sides, where both the plate and PCB are visible, also a pic of the entire top (out of the case, without keycaps), and the entire bottom?

Unfortunately it's all put back together.  But if I need to take it apart again for some other reason I'll take some more pics.

[redpill]

Added the gray EK softpads today.  Does make it even quieter, but not sure I like the feel.  Will give them a week or so.

[keyboardlover]

Nice mod, and very gutsy. Glad it worked out for you.

[sordna]

Added the gray EK softpads today.  Does make it even quieter, but not sure I like the feel.  Will give them a week or so.

o-rings do a better job at preserving the original feel, they give you better feedback/bounce when you bottom out. The pads completely absorb your fingers' kinetic energy!

[redpill]

o-rings do a better job at preserving the original feel, they give you better feedback/bounce when you bottom out. The pads completely absorb your fingers' kinetic energy!

Yeah was going to try that but finding/ordering them started to get complicated and I frankly gave up, heh.

[sordna]

I did exhaustive search on o-rings. Best specs & value are these, medium-soft 50A durometer 008 o-rings for just $9 per pack of 125:

Part number: 2418T114 at McMaster-Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#as568a-o-rings/

Can't go wrong.

[redpill]

Good to know, TY.  If I give up on these pads I may give them a shot.

[lucas]

i just got my filco zero. it rings. it's unusable.

i don't know exactly what the parts look like in there, but i wonder if i could pull some rubber strings into the space between the pcb and the plate.

i need to open it up and evaluate the scene. maybe something like this?

[sordna]

i just got my filco zero. it rings. it's unusable.

Unusable? Does this mean the ring is louder than the typing sound? Or that the ringing sustains for seconds? Please post a sound sample to demonstrate.

[redpill]

i don't know exactly what the parts look like in there, but i wonder if i could pull some rubber strings into the space between the pcb and the plate.

i need to open it up and evaluate the scene.

Keep in mind opening the case invalidates the warranty, so if you have any serious considerations of ever trying to return it, I'd advise against it.  

That being said if you are sure you will be keeping it and are just looking for ways to mitigate the ring, you can open it up, but maybe I can give you some idea of what to expect.

The PCB and the metal plate are very close together.  To make matters more difficult, you can only feed it in from the two ends because the metal plate bends over on the long sides and covers up the gap.  The PCB is not smooth in between there either, it has all sorts of things to get snagged on, so feeding anything like rubber through the narrow space would be very difficult.  It was so narrow that the only way I could get any foam close to the middle of the board was to use a narrow drinking straw that I spliced onto the tube on the can of foam.  Even then I had to carefully feed and snake it in there.

[redpill]

If most/all switches cause the plate to ring then resoldering won't help unless he's willing to do the whole board, IMHO.

I missed the "unusable" part of that post.  If you really find it unusable I would return it.  Out of curiosity, is it from Amazon?  And what switches does it have?

If I bought another Filco and it rang, I would not try to fix it again.  It was an interesting project once, but also a messy pain in the ass.

[keyboardlover]

Sounds like a night after Taco Bell.

[sordna]

I would try first The Solutor's solution.  Resolder the offending switch.  Report back if it works.  It's such a crazy suggestion it just might.

 
I think it might work, but not for the reasons Solutor suggested (creating better contact/avoid gap between switch and PCB). I think the resoldering has the effect of relieving or creating tension between the metal plate and the PCB, depending on how hard you squeeze the parts together during the soldering, and that tension or lack thereof can increase/decrease sound transfer and/or dampen the vibrations.

Anyway, if this keyboard rings so much that it's unusable, it's a great opportunity for interesting sound samples!

[sordna]

Buckling spring! What is that thing anyway, any real video of it, with sound ?

[sordna]

Haha, nice! Wow, the ping is LOUD! Clearly shows there's no metal plate needed!
That model M pings too, it's clearly defective, PM me your address and I'll come pick it up free of charge.

[keyboardlover]

But what if more switches are ringy than not? Might as well bake that thing in the oven for a ...ahem... "hot" minute.

[redpill]

On my board it didnt matter what switch I hit, I could knock on the desk next to it and the plate would ring.  

I don't get ripster's fascination with Solutor's idea.  It's a different issue.  And not only did he post before-and-after sound clips that demonstrated it, but is it really that odd of a notion that a firmly soldered switch would make less noise than a loosely soldered one?

[redpill]

Then stop assuming it's not a manufacturing defect.

[redpill]

False premise.  A defect need not be widespread to be real.  In fact it makes more sense for it not to be.  If it were widespread they probably would have caught it.  Probably just a bad batch they sent to Amazon.

[keyboardlover]

The one I got that rang was a Gen1 from EK.

[The Solutor]

I think it might work, but not for the reasons Solutor suggested (creating better contact/avoid gap between switch and PCB).

 
In my case just one switch was pinging (a cherry "fault" not a board defect), so I have few doubts about how resoldering worked, by the way depending on the distance between the plate and the PCB this might still work on the way you describe.

Btw if filco placed the plate too close to the PCB the plate might still resonating no matter on how hard you push the switch.

All in all, as I said before few minutes are needed and surely things can't getting worse, you can have a great or a just noticeable improvement, depending on a number of factors.

[The Solutor]

A quick reheat and nice shiny coned lead should be sufficient.

 
Damn Americans, after calling alligator clips what we call crocodile clips, you call lead what we call tin ? :happy:

[keyboardlover]

Well, here you can get tin that's lead-based or not. We do call it tin though.

(I still haven't learned to solder but have been watching some how-to videos).

[morethanless]

wait, if you remove all key caps, then the metal plate is visible, right? (edit: found it looks like this http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?9735-Keyboard-Repair&p=176854&viewfull=1#post176854 )
So you could combine a elitekeyboards-softlanding-mod with tuning-fork-ping-removal-mod, if you place a rubber/foam-pad with holes for the switches  on the metal plate from above. Then put all key caps on top again.

[penpoints]

It may be.  Although statistics make this unlikely given the current reports of Ninja ringing at websites around the world.  Like this OCN post.  Or [URL=http://www.overclock.net/13920098-post17.html]this one.
[/URL]
Science has moved beyond Newtonian certitude to Quark Quantum Mechanics probabilities.

Wait, now you're saying that "it may be" a manufacturing defect? It's nice to see that your position is evolving (finally).

I forgot to mention before that the Ringing Filco problem is not subtle. If you've got one of these YOU WILL KNOW IT right away. A slight pinging of the backspace key isn't the problem. I don't think a slight ping is a defect. This is different.

BTW, my 2 Filco returns to Amazon.com were accepted without question. Of course I don't believe in using RMA just to try out keyboards. I would resell them myself. The Filco Ninja's were gorgeous, except for the ringing, and I was unhappy about returning them. Maybe the Tuning Fork Effect is very rare. How do I know? Most other buyers aren't complaining. My other Filco's don't do it. It's a mystery.

[redpill]

wait, if you remove all key caps, then the metal plate is visible, right? (edit: found it looks like this http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?9735-Keyboard-Repair&p=176854&viewfull=1#post176854 )
So you could combine a elitekeyboards-softlanding-mod with tuning-fork-ping-removal-mod, if you place a rubber/foam-pad with holes for the switches  on the metal plate from above. Then put all key caps on top again.

 
I don't know how much clearance there is between the edges of a keycap and the metal plate, but a paperclip fits.  It may not be thick enough to damp it without interfering with the keys, butI'd say it's worth a shot if you can find a sheet of rubber (preferably black and with adhesive on one side, maybe a foam drawer liner or something), but then you would need to carefully cut a hole for each switch.

[Wallach]

I noticed someone uploaded a video of the difference between his Filco Ninja and a Leopold tenkeyless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dqJrjshcyg&feature=player_embedded

Originally this video said "Notice the ringing" in the description, but he seems to have edited that out (though it still shows in the description of the Google search for "Filco ringing"). My previous Filco sounded similar except for the Backspace key, which was way louder than the rest of it (which is why I ultimately sent it away). Note that the Leopold isn't quite silent, as you can hear similar plate resonance when he strikes one of the middle keys near the very end. The Das Keyboard S I had I couldn't get it to make that kind of resonance even releasing a key as fast as I could, so I think there's definitely a difference in how the plate is reacting to the rest of the components that may be particular to Filco.

[The Solutor]

Well, here you can get tin that's lead-based or not. We do call it tin though.

 
Thje solder alloy was used to be a mix of tin and lead, 50/50 for the cheap ones (usually meant for plumbers), or 60-63% / tin 37-40% lead the high quality ones for electronics purposes.

Now the some normative had imposed the lead free alloys, although made with silver, tin  and copper (so more expensive metals) are just crap, and some Xbox users experimented how crap it is.

I still haven't learned to solder but have been watching some how-to videos

When you understand that you have not to melt the soldering wire with the soldering iron tip but with the heated components to solder you are at 75% of the learning process.

[sordna]

We are STILL waiting for someone to post a sound sample of a Filco that REALLY rings like a tuning fork. No such sample has been posted in all these threads about this issue.
Lucas ?

[SecrtAgentMan]

So how close do you guys put your heads to your keys?

Because that's the only time I can truly hear mine go ping on a few select keys (Home, left arrow, 6, 1, A)

[ethics-]

Too lazy to read through the entirety of these pinging threads.  I think it has been established that there is a sound made as the keys are depressed.  Has anyone considered the possibility that the frequency of the pinging is beyond the audible range of some people on these forums?  It's pretty common knowledge that the hearing range of a person decreases as one ages.

[sordna]

Too lazy to read through the entirety of these pinging threads.  I think it has been established that there is a sound made as the keys are depressed.  Has anyone considered the possibility that the frequency of the pinging is beyond the audible range of some people on these forums?  It's pretty common knowledge that the hearing range of a person decreases as one ages.

The highest pitch reported was a C# note at around 550Hz, well within the range of anyone's hearing.

[The Solutor]

I must add for complete information tat we call lead soldiers what you call tin soldiers (here I have no clue about the real metal or alloy used)

[lucas]

This isn't the best reproduction--I used a Nikon D90 and Youtube. But it's still noticable, albeit pretty quiet. (I included a WhiBal card in honor of Ripster.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54eusgrtoM

[The Solutor]

You must have twanged this in your sound sample.

What's your scope continuously accusing me of faking things ?

Do you want to force me to be rude or what ?

You should learn that something you don't like or don't fit your idea is not automagically a lie, is just something you haven't understood.

You should also learn to have some respect to the other users, no matter how many post you have here, no matter how many years old is your subscription, no matter the quality of your past work.

Be sure that I don't want to ruin my reputation (that unlike yours is not limited to a single narrow matter, and to a single forum) just to fool you.

So I couldn't care less if you follow my instruction to improve your boards (mine is already fixed, mine is already modded, mine is unique) but I care a lot if you still trowing mud in my direction. It's not just childish, is impolite, is rude.

[morethanless]

You can hear it best, when he strives across all keys at once.

[The Solutor]

Your audio doesn't sound anything like the Lucas audio.

 

And why in the hell should sound the same given that (thanks god) my keyboard is not a filco ?

My keyboard had a single switch pinging and I did the work and posted the sample because someone asked.

Simple as that, not more not less