Suggestions for Advantage keyboard

[natas206]

@Natas Do you know when the new advantage keyboard will be available at resellers in europe? i'm really looking forward to it. But purchasing directly from kinesis would come close to 500 euros with shipping, taxes, etc. Although I wonder if resellers can offer a better price...

Little bit of a delay with our international resellers. I would say at least 3-4 weeks before our European resellers are selling them.

Does that include the international layouts? and on that note, I heard that you were thinking of moving the Å-key (on the SE-layout), did you? and if so, where did it end up?
Thank you for an awesome kbd!

Yes, that includes all the international layouts. We did fix the Swedish layout as well. As you know, the original Advantage-SE model was a bit wonky in regards to where the Å-key ended up (next to the down arrow key, which you would probably prefer to remap using the programming features). Now we have it in the more natural location by the letter "P" key. Here is the default Swedish layout in the Adv2:

[Steven Tammen]

I've been waiting for this for a long time. Bravo!

I'd be interested to hear if the internals will be able to support custom firmware. I currently use a rather complicated AutoHotkey script to place modifiers on the home row and many other keys on layers (counting the base layer, I have 6 at present, all accessible by holding down certain keys). It would be great to have these things enabled on the firmware level.

I'd also like to see a split-hand concave keyboard someday, but baby steps I suppose. If there's a Kinesis Advantage3, this would be the most important new feature, in my opinion.

[sordna]

Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!

[natas206]

Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!

Glad to hear it! Much easier to program the keypad now versus the old "hack" way of doing it.

Should be some new firmware up on our website later today to fix some bugs in the original build. It will be on our Adv2 resources page:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

There is currently 1.0.18 on the resource page which is really only needed for international users. The next firmware that you'll want to update to is 1.0.35, which again should be up later today or possibly tomorrow.

[amlai]

The new Adv2 seems great and the real keyswitches are definitely an upgrade over the older models. Unfortunately, I ran into KVM compatibility issues, so I haven't been using the keyboard much. I have a fairly advanced KVM (IOGear GCS1924), so it doesn't surprise me all that much, though it worked flawlessly with my Advantage Pro. I'm sort of hoping that some future firmware will help make the KVM work, but if not, I'll move the keyboard to the office where I don't have a KVM.

[xtrafrood]

Received my Advantage 2 LF yesterday. It's amazing! Thanks Kinesis!
The firmware is awesome, and finally momentary keypad action can be mapped to any key. Great to be able to save my layout in a text file too!

Glad to hear it! Much easier to program the keypad now versus the old "hack" way of doing it.

Should be some new firmware up on our website later today to fix some bugs in the original build. It will be on our Adv2 resources page:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

There is currently 1.0.18 on the resource page which is really only needed for international users. The next firmware that you'll want to update to is 1.0.35, which again should be up later today or possibly tomorrow.

Multimedia functionality, nice

[natas206]

version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 

[islisis]

Yeah, we got a bunch of different home row keycaps available although I'm really only a fan of the gray and the blues:
https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/alternate-home-row-colors/

We may get different colors later if people are interested, like green (why don't we have a green?!), black, etc.

Oh yeah, the blank keycaps are available, it's just that they are sold separately and not pre-installed.

i would be interested in more dark colors, i still think dark red would work well, and sold in blank separately.

[Megavvolt]

While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive.

Would be super nice to be able to buy bare PCB's for Cherry ML function keys to be able to retrofit older keyboards - we've all suffered from those rubber buttons for years, lots of folks inserted extra buttons to remap to them at least some of the function keys - would be really good to finally upgrade those rubber buttons not at the cost of a new keyboard.

You might want to limit this to, say, two pcb sets per geekhack nickname or something like that...

[mystdrkn]

While we only offer Cherry Browns & Cherry Reds, we're always happy to provide the bare parts necessary to convert a current Advantage keyboard to whatever key switch you prefer and it's fairly inexpensive.

Would be super nice to be able to buy bare PCB's for Cherry ML function keys to be able to retrofit older keyboards - we've all suffered from those rubber buttons for years, lots of folks inserted extra buttons to remap to them at least some of the function keys - would be really good to finally upgrade those rubber buttons not at the cost of a new keyboard.

You might want to limit this to, say, two pcb sets per geekhack nickname or something like that...

I asked Ricky at Kinesis support about swapping the function key PCBs out in an Advantage 1 for those used in the Advantage 2:

Unfortunately no, they aren’t compatible.

Originally we intended each would be compatible (Advantage1 user could swap out main circuit board and attach existing rubber function keys to new main board or existing Adv1 user could simply swap out rubber function keys to mechanical) but it didn’t work out that way.  Many of the function keys wont’ work (a few will).

I also asked if I could swap the main circuit board and replace the function keys. I didn't get a response to that — I was also trying to order some pre-made Cherry Red key wells and thumb keys, to replace the Cherry Clears from a previous experiment, so I think I was trying to do too much in one email.

Opening up my Advantage 2 and comparing the Advantage 1, it appears that you'd have to swap five PCBs to swap out the function keys: the PCBs for the thumb keys, function keys, and main circuit board. The main circuit board now uses flat flex cables for all connections. The advantage 1 uses a ribbon cable to connect the thumb keys to the main circuit board.

[Megavvolt]

Thanks for the update mystdrkn.

If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.

[vvp]

If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.

Key scanning matrix may be different on Advantage2 compared to Advantage1. So it is possible that the only option is to replace all 5 PCBs. If that is the case then it may be cheaper to buy a new Advantage2.

[sordna]

Not to mention the function row is held in place with glue ... It would make the replacement messy. I too think it is better to buy the Advantage 2. Plus the new firmware is amazing and the quirky PS/2 - USB internal converter is gone (no PCB in the bottom case); it's a much cleaner architecture now. I highly recommend the new Advantage!

[Megavvolt]

It is not glue - just polypropene. A soldering iron at 160 C works just great. No mess at all.

There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

[natas206]

If it comes to that, I don't see what could keep me from wiring the new function keys PCBs to the main PCB using some wires and a soldering iron.

Key scanning matrix may be different on Advantage2 compared to Advantage1. So it is possible that the only option is to replace all 5 PCBs. If that is the case then it may be cheaper to buy a new Advantage2.

Right, this is the issue. Otherwise it would be possible, although a bit tricky as sordna pointed out the new mechanical function rows have a spacer installed, which the PCB then mounts to and is screwed in (certainly possibly though to DIY). Unfortunately they just won't work with the older circuit board & firmware (and vice versa), which means vvp is correct in that you would have to just replace all the PCBs and only keep the keywells.

[sordna]

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !

[Input Nirvana]

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !

Sordna! You didn't waste any time!


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph

[Megavvolt]

Sordna - thanks to you, my Kinesis Classic has five extra buttons (and a trackpoint with 3 trackpoint buttons - I had to murder a SK-8855 ($78) to get this done). Connecting trackpoint buttons to the flexible cable using 36awg teflon wires was a pain but I made it. I am quite happy with my keyboard and I just can't afford spending another $360 + $78 plus the cost of PS-15.

natas206 - I am pretty good at soldering but at the same time I am an absolute zero when it comes to electronics. Nine buttons, 18 wires to connect on each side. If I have to cut some (or all) PCB traces and connect the buttons as my Kinesis Classic needs it I will. I don't need to use the flexible cable at all. Why are you guys (you, vvp and sordna) saying I can't do it?

[sordna]

Wow please do a thread to show your mod !  And put at least 2 photos in my thread NOW  :-)
Ok, if you change wiring the new function rows *might* work, I think what Kinesis is saying is that is not a drop-in replacement that they can offer to customers. They do sell parts however so you could order some but at your own risk and it could take a lot of ugly re-wiring work with no guarantee of success.

[Input Nirvana]

Megavolt:
It's a requirement you post some detailed photos of your mod.

I can't wait to see this....


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[xtrafrood]

Megavolt:
It's a requirement you post some detailed photos of your mod.

I can't wait to see this....


Via iPhone 6 Plus/iPad Mini + Tapatalk VIP + while driving 70mph

I, too, would love to see some keyboard por.. pictures of your setup

[vvp]

If I have to cut some (or all) PCB traces and connect the buttons as my Kinesis Classic needs it I will. I don't need to use the flexible cable at all. Why are you guys (you, vvp and sordna) saying I can't do it?

If you are willing to re-route function key PCBs then of course you can do it. You need to draw schematic for the old function key PCBs and for the new ones. Then scratch and reconnect the traces on the new function key PCBs so that they represent the same schematic as on the old ones. So it is possible to do it. I just did not expected that you are willing to reroute the PCBs. But even if you are willing to do it then I think it may be easier to design your own PCBs which correspond to the old schematic and use CherryML switches. It depends how much the key scanning matrices differ between the old and the new versions of the function key PCBs.

[Megavvolt]

Adding the trackpoint was really easy thanks to geekhack.org topics:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.msg1291412#msg1291412
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0

As for the buttons, Sordna did all the work in his topic and even answered my stupid questions.


Picture attached as you requested - apologies for fugly wrist pads - would love to get new ones but have no idea where to buy them.

[xtrafrood]

Adding the trackpoint was really easy thanks to geekhack.org topics:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55960.msg1291412#msg1291412
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0

As for the buttons, Sordna did all the work in his topic and even answered my stupid questions.


Picture attached as you requested - apologies for fugly wrist pads - would love to get new ones but have no idea where to buy them.

That is put together really well

The Kinesis website has the black wrist pads for sale if you don't mind switching it up a little bit

[Megavvolt]

Black won't look good here I'm afraid. Besides, I don't look at the keyboard while I type and the nasty looks of these pads don't really bother me. Of course ugly is ugly, and I would love to change that - just don't have that chance.

vvp, sordna - I'd much rather get a new keyboard but beggars can't be choosers. I am still using a PS/2 Classic (had to add USB hub inside). Making new PCB's is not something I can do, but I will have no problem cutting the traces right at the holes and wiring 9 buttons on each side. Come, on it's just 18 wires to solder on each side.

Question is, how to get a function keys sets (ideally with the mounting plates and keycaps). Will try to PM natas206.

[mystdrkn]

version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 

natas206, is there a plan in the works for interested customers adding themselves to an announcement email list for firmware updates to the Advantage 2? That would be helpful to keep track of new updates without refreshing the Advantage 2 resource page regularly.

[natas206]

version 1.0.46 firmware available now:
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/advantage2-resources/

Check the tech notes for what it fixed and what features it added. For Dvorak users, I recommend updating since it will make your life easier in regards  to programming your layout(s).
 

natas206, is there a plan in the works for interested customers adding themselves to an announcement email list for firmware updates to the Advantage 2? That would be helpful to keep track of new updates without refreshing the Advantage 2 resource page regularly.

We were just talking about that here at Kinesis. While we're figuring out the best way to do this, in the meantime you can follow us on twitter or Facebook and we'll make firmware announcements there for now. 

https://twitter.com/kinesisergo?lang=en
https://www.facebook.com/KinesisErgo/

[natas206]

All I say is, it would be super nice to have a choice.

I agree, I had asked Kinesis the same question as you.

There will always be those who like to tinker and those who'd rather buy new.

And some that like to get the new stuff AND tinker with it :-) I gave my brand new Advantage 2 LF the same treatment I gave my original LFs, and highly recommend both the new keyboard and this modification !

Dude, you're a legend! This was super fast and impressive!

Researching your emails you sent so expect some delays, trying to prioritize everything between the few of us here is a challenge! But this is fun stuff.

[Findecanor]

Is this the new model?

[sordna]

Is this the new model?

Yup it is. Advantage2, QD variant.

[dusanx]

What is going on with kinesis-ergo site? Every single troubleshooting or contact link does not work. My J key on previous LF model just died and I am trying to contact kinesis but not a single link to do so works. Should I try contacting natas here? Is there alternative email somebody can send me on pm?

I can't even type on this apple monstrosity keyboard after using LF for almost five years.

[hoggy]

I'm sure sending natas206 a pm will be fine.  Customer support at Kinesis is pretty much top notch.

The links are broken for me as well.  Luckily google cached the page - just add 'cache:' to the start of the url.

Contacting Technical Support

For repairs please contact technical support (techsupport@kinesis.com) for an RMA number. If you need help urgently, please call 425-402-8100 (option 2). Phone lines are staffed M-F between 8:30 AM – 11:30 AM and 12:30 PM – 4:30 PM Pacific time. If you call and a technician is not available, we will return your call as soon as possible. However, we are unable to return phone calls to locations outside of North America. When you contact Kinesis or leave a message to request technical support, please provide the following information:

Your name, phone number, city, and email address
Kinesis product model and serial number (required)
Purchase date of Kinesis product and vendor name, if you know it
Computer model and operating system (required)
Details of your problem or question
FAQs, Troubleshooting & User Manuals

For technical questions concerning your product the best place to start is to refer to the left side bar of this page. This is where you will find answers to FAQs, troubleshooting a particular issue and downloading user manuals.

Edit: I've sent them email about the website.

[hoggy]

Took the liberty of looking up a relevant item on their support page.

Determine if the key is producing the wrong character or if it is electrically dead. If it’s the wrong character, try remapping the key to itself:
1). Press and Hold the Program key and tap F12 (lights on keyboard will begin to flash rapidly).
2). Press and release the non-working key (flashing lights SHOULD slow down in speed. If they do not, this indicates that the key is not being registered and is likely damaged. If this is the case, repeat step 1 to exit remap mode & contact tech support. If the lights do slow down, continue to step 3).
3). Press and release the non-working key a second time (flashing lights will speed up).
4). Repeat step 1 to exit.
If the key seems electronically dead, you can try removing the individual keycap (if you have a USB keyboard it should have came with a “keycap removal tool.” Use this to remove the keycap. If your keyboard did not come with the tool, use two paper clips- bend them in the shape of a hook or “J” and pull the keycap straight up) and spray canned air inside the key switch to remove any dirt/debris. If there appears to be any sticky residues on the keycap or on the key switch, try to clean the area as best as you can (usually a damp paper towel is good enough).

If the problem continues, it is likely that the individual key switch is damaged and may require a repair.

[dusanx]

Thanks. It seems dead completely, just one key, so I sent PM to natas. After pulling keycap (which is top of my skills) cherry red looks completely normal. Keyboard wasn't spilled on or damaged in any way, cherry red just seems to die natural way. I just tried those steps and it doesn't register at all.

[hoggy]

eek.  Hope you manage to get it fixed.

[dusanx]

Just placed order for ergodox ez :/ I love kinesis and want to get it fixed asap but I can't stand typing on Apple keyboard (or any with slanted key rows). Even this post had 50% mistakes, which makes it impossible to use for a programmer who types for a living. So in the future I must maintain at least pool of two kinesis / ergodox keyboards to avoid typing on this c.rap.

[dusanx]

Customer support at Kinesis is pretty much top notch.

I can now confirm this Hopefully ez will be good substitute until I get LF fixed, but until I get my kinesis bowls back I don't think anything else will fit my fingers completely.

[Findecanor]

I have a small test for anybody who would have the Kinesis Advantage 2:

* Direct your web browser to https://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx
* Click to use the application at the top of the page.
* Hold down six alphanumeric keys simultaneously.
* While holding down the six keys, press a seventh alphanumeric key ... and report what happens!

The old Kinesis Advantage (v1) had a bug, in which it forgot ALL key presses when this happened.
Other keyboards behave in one of three ways:
- It has N-key rollover, so it will report all of them anyway
- It will refuse to acknowledge the seventh key press
- The oldest pressed key will disappear.

I think it would be interesting to see if the old bug is still there ...

[natas206]

I have a small test for anybody who would have the Kinesis Advantage 2:

* Direct your web browser to https://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx
* Click to use the application at the top of the page.
* Hold down six alphanumeric keys simultaneously.
* While holding down the six keys, press a seventh alphanumeric key ... and report what happens!

The old Kinesis Advantage (v1) had a bug, in which it forgot ALL key presses when this happened.
Other keyboards behave in one of three ways:
- It has N-key rollover, so it will report all of them anyway
- It will refuse to acknowledge the seventh key press
- The oldest pressed key will disappear.

I think it would be interesting to see if the old bug is still there ...

It took me a second to figure out what you meant but yes, that's gone with the Adv2.

To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.

[Findecanor]

That's good! Thanks!

[natas206]

That's good! Thanks!

We'll probably have a firmware update at some point to add full n-key rollover support as well. This is a feature the "gaming" Freesytle keyboard will have and since it's using the same technology seems possible to implement it here as well, probably won't be anytime soon though.

[Salt Peanuts]

To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.

Same thing with my Advantage and Advantage2.  Out of curiosity, is this 'bug' on Adv1 actually a problem for people?  I only ask since I don't think I've ever needed to press that many keys at once in normal everyday use.

We'll probably have a firmware update at some point to add full n-key rollover support as well. This is a feature the "gaming" Freesytle keyboard will have and since it's using the same technology seems possible to implement it here as well, probably won't be anytime soon though.

Didn't realize you guys were still working on the gaming Freestyle.  Is the plan still to use mechanical switches and is there an ETA for it? 

[natas206]

To be clear, I took an original Adv1, held down 6 keys which shows up on the screen, press a 7th key and the previous six keys disappear (or forgets like you said). With the Adv2 however, I press and hold 6 keys, tap a 7th key and the 6 keys remain held down on the screen.

Same thing with my Advantage and Advantage2.  Out of curiosity, is this 'bug' on Adv1 actually a problem for people?  I only ask since I don't think I've ever needed to press that many keys at once in normal everyday use.

Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure there is some unique circumstance where that isn't the desired result though.

Didn't realize you guys were still working on the gaming Freestyle.  Is the plan still to use mechanical switches and is there an ETA for it? 

Oh yeah, that's what we're working on now. We will use Cherry switches, for sure Reds and Browns and maybe Blues as well. So I believe the plan is to have two versions - a "gaming" version and a "office" version, the gaming version will have some more features and backlit keys. ETA, first quarter of 2017.

[Niomosy]

Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

[Salt Peanuts]

Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.

[natas206]

Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.

[Niomosy]

Q1 2017 isn't actually that bad in terms of waiting.  Looking forward to this one.

Any chance the gaming version will have some extra keys on the left side?

Unless the plan has changed, it should have 8 macros keys on the left.  I'm interested but I've been having difficulties with using keyboards without thumb clusters.

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.

Fantastic news, then, as that's right up my alley.  It's the ergo mech board missing (outside specialty buys like the VE.A but I'm not made of money to be able to afford that one).

[Salt Peanuts]

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.

Colemak doesn't help with gaming either.

I just noticed today that Pause/Break key on my Adv1 doesn't repeat when pressed down.  Is this by design or is the rubber dome key going bad?

[natas206]

That's right- dedicated macro keys on the left side, although the entire keyboard is fully programmable as well so you wont be limited to just those keys. It will have similar technology as the Advantage2 so you can expect multiple layouts, etc.

I'm the same way - I need thumb keys to function but for gaming I've never been able to use an Advantage keyboard and still need a more traditional flat keyboard. I've heard similar from many of our customers though I'm sure some people are able to do it but it's always been a challenge personally.

Colemak doesn't help with gaming either.

I just noticed today that Pause/Break key on my Adv1 doesn't repeat when pressed down.  Is this by design or is the rubber dome key going bad?

I just confirmed the Pause/Break key doesn't repeat on the Adv1. Not sure why that is. On the Adv2 it repeats just fine. I'll see if I can dig up some old notes as if there is a reason why the Adv1 is that way...

[vvp]

Auto repeat is a feature of the operating system or PC bios. It is not a keyboard feature. Keyboards send only key-press, key-release events. One pair of events for one key press.