[IC] Currently unnamed split adjustable ergonomic Topre keyboard

[attheicearcade]

Some of you may have come across my long running project on deskthority: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/designing-a-custom-topre-board-t11734.html. To summarise, I have been attempting to (and so far successfully) make a split hand, adjustable column ergonomic keyboard that supports Topre switches through my custom electronics. The electronics are coming along nicely along with the firmware, here are the controllers:



They use Teensy 3.1/3.2 boards.

I just want a quick check to find out how many people might be interested in buying the keyboard before I go spending too much money, which is also why I haven't build a full keyboard yet. I will be getting select parts to further test electronics and the manufacturer capability.

The case parts (no electronics or switches) will likely be around £100 given a batch of 100, made in the UK. The electronics price depends on if I get the PCBs fully populated or just sell the blank circuit boards (both from China), the first will be more expensive than the second, but you'll have to do a fair amount of soldering. But you will need to solder anyway after building the columns.

The case should also be compatible with more standard MX style switches, in a more typical custom keyboard setup (full hand wiring).

If you're interested, please post the particular variant you'd be interested in: (2x Teensies not included, you'd also need a Topre / clone keyboard for switches if you want Topre)

• £100 - Just the case (for MX)
• £130 - Case and blank PCBs (you'd need to spend a fair amount on components)
• £200 - Case and assembled electronics

Note that any of the prices could be completely wrong. The case price is based on quotes from manufacturers for 100 keyboards, but the electronics is based on component cost which I had to pay + conjectured assembly price. I'm trying to be conservative, I don't want the price to go up in future.

[suicidal_orange]

Love the look of these!

Do you have a list of components so we can see whether assembly is worth it?  Have you considered a kit to get price breaks for buying lots of the same components?  Unless the other side of the PCBs are really busy it looks like a relatively small sorting job.  I nearly volunteered but will wait for a full list )

Also is that MoQ for 100 pairs or 100 halves?  People are always looking for gaming pads, these are analogue so would be perfect...

[Loligagger]

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

[suicidal_orange]

Have you thought about tenting for the case?

That's what makes this 'case' awesome - each column can slide nearer or further away to adjust stagger, and each can be raised or lowered which is essentially tenting.  Note the slots wherever you see a bolt

[Loligagger]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

[attheicearcade]

Do you have a list of components so we can see whether assembly is worth it?  Have you considered a kit to get price breaks for buying lots of the same components?  Unless the other side of the PCBs are really busy it looks like a relatively small sorting job.  I nearly volunteered but will wait for a full list )

There aren't that many components, I suppose it would be best to offer the electronics as a kit which could be soldered (if assembly price is too high). I don't have prices for assembly though. I'll put together an electronics component list - the controller and firmware will both be open source.

Also is that MoQ for 100 pairs or 100 halves?  People are always looking for gaming pads, these are analogue so would be perfect...

That's for 100 pairs, I hadn't really thought about game pads, but they are totally possible. The case halves share all pieces but one (the thumb plate is a mirror image).

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time
The base is not final - but I really want to get hold of the keyboard before I make any more changes (re: tenting). I was hoping that there is enough adjustability in the columns to make up most people's (fairly small) tenting needs, but I really need to actually have one in front of me to make a decision. I'm going to be quite stubborn with the layout for now, just to limit the scope (or it will never get made). The good thing is that it's pretty modular and individual parts are not to expensive (unless you're buying lots of different bits), so there is potential for changing parts / adding things without having to buy a whole new keyboard in future.

That's what makes this 'case' awesome - each column can slide nearer or further away to adjust stagger, and each can be raised or lowered which is essentially tenting.  Note the slots wherever you see a bolt

Actualy, I'm not sure if I read this or assumed it...

This is correct, I hadn't made that clear: there are crossed slots at every bolt point, wherever there is a bolt there are 2 translational and 1 rotational degree of freedom. Of course you are limited to certain ranges of motion thanks to interference with other parts etc, but I am hoping it's enough.

[Gatix]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

[suicidal_orange]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

(Attachment Link)

That's why I said essentially - you can lower the edge columns and raise the inner ones for a similar effect.  Wouldn't go as steep as that pic though, and wouldn't work if did as you'd be pressing off centre...

There are slots under each column so you could easily screw in some supports?

[Loligagger]

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time
The base is not final - but I really want to get hold of the keyboard before I make any more changes (re: tenting). I was hoping that there is enough adjustability in the columns to make up most people's (fairly small) tenting needs, but I really need to actually have one in front of me to make a decision. I'm going to be quite stubborn with the layout for now, just to limit the scope (or it will never get made). The good thing is that it's pretty modular and individual parts are not to expensive (unless you're buying lots of different bits), so there is potential for changing parts / adding things without having to buy a whole new keyboard in future.

Makes sense. If it means I can get my hands on this board quicker I don't mind going with topre first then waiting for an MX controller. A parts kit (or at least a BOM) would be nice, since I don't mind soldering the components myself.

Edit: What about calling it the SPACE keyboard? Split-hand Adjustable Column Ergonomic keyboard.

[attheicearcade]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

A very old column prototype:



It has changed a lot since then, but that shows the idea. Just push them into the plates from below, and use the PCBs to hold it all together with fasteners. The newer design has press fit threaded studs built into the column itself, as opposed to bolts fitting into tapped holes (this is much cheaper).

Edit: It is worth adding that the dome sheet will need to be cut into squares.

[attheicearcade]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

(Attachment Link)

That's why I said essentially - you can lower the edge columns and raise the inner ones for a similar effect.  Wouldn't go as steep as that pic though, and wouldn't work if did as you'd be pressing off centre...

There are slots under each column so you could easily screw in some supports?

You can angle the columns along their long axis to get a "cup" shape keywell, so you aren't pressing off centre. But I doubt it could go quite as tilted as that picture. Supports might be possible, I think I'd rather go for some tenting mechanism around the base to make wiring less messy. Not sure though!

Makes sense. If it means I can get my hands on this board quicker I don't mind going with topre first then waiting for an MX controller. A parts kit (or at least a BOM) would be nice, since I don't mind soldering the components myself.

Here is the BOM for a single controller. Also need: some normal insulated wire for the strobe lines, UMCC coax cables for the sensing lines and corresponding connectors for the column end connection. Some bits are still to be tested though, this could change.

Edit: What about calling it the SPACE keyboard? Split-hand Adjustable Column Ergonomic keyboard.

That is better than any name I have come up with (which would be none). Consider it at the top of my potential name list 

[Gatix]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

A very old column prototype:

Show Image

It has changed a lot since then, but that shows the idea. Just push them into the plates from below, and use the PCBs to hold it all together with fasteners. The newer design has press fit threaded studs built into the column itself, as opposed to bolts fitting into tapped holes (this is much cheaper).

Edit: It is worth adding that the dome sheet will need to be cut into squares.

Just to clarify, you mean you'll be able to provide the case? We just need to provide a slider and a dome in order to use topre?

[xondat]

Dropping in to say this is ****ing amazing. I'd be interested in 2 cases, 1 for MX, and 1 for Topre (so options 1 and 3). If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

[attheicearcade]

Just to clarify, you mean you'll be able to provide the case? We just need to provide a slider and a dome in order to use topre?

Yes, but you need the full switch.

To clarify on vocabulary: I refer to the top parts in the photo as the housing, and the bottom right as a typical Topre slider. When I refer to a Topre "switch" I mean the housing, slider, dome, and spring. The only difference in the Novatouch variant is the slider which supports MX keycaps (as you probably know).

Most of the keyboard should be able to use standard Topre sliders. The original design required Novatouch sliders, but with it being discontinued I modified it so regular ones should work for the 1U keys. This is untested, but will be tested before the GB.

To explain this, the old design had the housings rotated at 90 degrees from the standard Topre keyboards to leave room for the mounting bolts (see the notches at the edges of the housing). This would have been problematic for proper Topre sliders, which only allow keycaps to be mounted in 180 degree intervals, so the keycaps would have been sideways. Novatouch sliders allow keycaps to be mounted in any direction (MX style).

The new design allows the housings to maintain the typical Topre position, meaning that any 1U switch + keycap should work, and you could for example steal both the switches and keycaps from a Realforce. The downside is: the PCB mounting method may not be as secure (to be tested). An additional upside is that clones should also fit.

You will almost certainly need MX (Novatouch) sliders and MX keycaps for the double width thumb keys though, unless someone made a Topre ergodox style set (not going to happen). Note that all housings are 1U in the new design, including thumb keys, so you could just use a 1U keycap as a stopgap. You may get away with the two vertical numpad keys from a fullsize board, but you'd be two keys short (unless you only built one half) and the profiles might be wonky.

If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

Please expand on this 
The current line of manufacture is: laser cut -> press brake -> install self clinch fasteners -> powder coat.

[xondat]

If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

Please expand on this 
The current line of manufacture is: laser cut -> press brake -> install self clinch fasteners -> powder coat.

I was pretty sure you were doing this. Doesn't matter then )

[duynguyenle]

I've been following your posts on DT for a while, glad to see it here!

Can't wait to see fully assembled prototypes! 

[Vigrith]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

[attheicearcade]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

[Vigrith]

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

LOL yea, that'd be quite the achievement. I did understand what you meant, I should've probably worded it differently, it's still fine as I can just have someone solder whatever's left for me. I have two Novatouches pretty much gathering dust/displaying keycap sets at this point so I guess I'll be fine.

This is a really cool project and I hope you manage to figure out a way to push it through!

[duynguyenle]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

[attheicearcade]

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

Completely untested, but they should do. The housings are square unlike Topre, but the difference is small.

[duynguyenle]

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

Completely untested, but they should do. The housings are square unlike Topre, but the difference is small.

Could you elaborate a bit more about the differences? I don't have any real Topre boards, only a Royal Kludge, what should I be looking out for as far as the housing goes? I've got one in storage that I could pull out and measure if that's helpful.

[pr0ximity]

If the thumb cluster is adjustable then I'm totally in for a fully loaded Topre model. I love the Maltron-style dish and the aesthetics of the render are wonderful. I don't think I'd mind tearing down my Realforce, and the idea of MX switches on the thumb cluster is actually pretty appealing. Some smooth linear mods and tactile 55g Topre alphanumerics?? Yes please!!

[drakeonyou]

I like the idea of this.

[attheicearcade]

If the thumb cluster is adjustable then I'm totally in for a fully loaded Topre model. I love the Maltron-style dish and the aesthetics of the render are wonderful. I don't think I'd mind tearing down my Realforce, and the idea of MX switches on the thumb cluster is actually pretty appealing. Some smooth linear mods and tactile 55g Topre alphanumerics?? Yes please!!

Sorry, by MX sliders I meant Novatouch ones - the controllers only support Topre. Not a bad idea though, perhaps in future there could be an MX thumb controller which could handle both MX and Topre columns...

[pr0ximity]

Ah I see, think I glossed over that. This is a bit less appealing if Novatouch sliders are needed. CtrlAlt's MX Topre sliders should be shipping in the not too distant future though. Not sure how available they'll continue to be, but if I recall correctly Bunnylake hinted they could be available on a retail site.

Anyway, IMO the board is a bit less doable for me if it requires Novatouch parts, but I'd still be quite interested in seeing if I could get ahold of the needed parts.

[Parva Ovis]

I'd definitely be down to buy a pair of cases for an MX keyboard. The renders are beautiful!

[Shados]

I'm definitely interested, possibly in both options #1 and #3. Few questions:

• Will it be possible to use 4x1u instead of 2x2u keys on the thumb cluster?
• Can the thumb cluster columns be angled relative to one another?
• Any chance of MX/Alps PCBs?
• I know you said you wouldn't, but any chance of LED support?

[TomBodet]

That's amazing.

Shipping costs would probably stop me (read: I'm really cheap) but I can't stop looking at it.

Since I've got an MX stash I'd only go case but that also assumes I get over the cost.

I didn't see any measurements on a quick glance; what's the min/max key height on the adjustment?  Say from the bottom of the case to the lowest key (middle) and bottom to highest key?  ( I hope that made sense)  I'm just trying to gauge how high off the desk it puts the keys.

[gaiden]

OP you should have an IC form for everyone to fill out. I'm definitely interested in the case for MX setup 

[gaiden]

Oh by the way, given the versatility of this board (how it can be modified and adjusted for typing style as well as MX or Topre) maybe it should be called Morphling (a MTG reference) but definitely fits the characteristic of this board! So maybe something like Morphling MX & Morphling T, anyways just some thoughts 

[attheicearcade]

Ah I see, think I glossed over that. This is a bit less appealing if Novatouch sliders are needed. CtrlAlt's MX Topre sliders should be shipping in the not too distant future though. Not sure how available they'll continue to be, but if I recall correctly Bunnylake hinted they could be available on a retail site.

Anyway, IMO the board is a bit less doable for me if it requires Novatouch parts, but I'd still be quite interested in seeing if I could get ahold of the needed parts.

Strictly speaking you don't need the Novatouch parts, that is, if you can put up with 1U keycaps on the two long thumb keys.
I'm still waiting for 3rd party MX sliders to happen, that'd be ideal.

I'm definitely interested, possibly in both options #1 and #3. Few questions:

• Will it be possible to use 4x1u instead of 2x2u keys on the thumb cluster?
• Can the thumb cluster columns be angled relative to one another?
• Any chance of MX/Alps PCBs?
• I know you said you wouldn't, but any chance of LED support?

• No, it would require a completely different controller and plate
• Not quite sure what you mean, but the thumb cluster is a solid plate in the same layout as an Ergodox. It can be moved and angled across quite a range, but the keys on the individual plate are fixed relative to the plate.
• If you mean controller, it isn't impossible but that's not my focus since DIY electronics for this type of switch is already commonplace.
• Nope! Can't stand them.

Could you elaborate a bit more about the differences? I don't have any real Topre boards, only a Royal Kludge, what should I be looking out for as far as the housing goes? I've got one in storage that I could pull out and measure if that's helpful.

The protruding part (which fits into the plate) of Topre housings are not square, they are around 14.6 x 14 mm. I think that clones are MX sized (14x14 mm), but I don't have any to check.

I didn't see any measurements on a quick glance; what's the min/max key height on the adjustment?  Say from the bottom of the case to the lowest key (middle) and bottom to highest key?  ( I hope that made sense)  I'm just trying to gauge how high off the desk it puts the keys.

It's something like 10 mm for just vertical adjustment. I can't give you exact numbers for the other parts right now but it is certainly higher than a typical keyboard. You may be able to get an idea of the size from the renders - note that all columns are in the lowest positions there.

Oh by the way, given the versatility of this board (how it can be modified and adjusted for typing style as well as MX or Topre) maybe it should be called Morphling (a MTG reference) but definitely fits the characteristic of this board! So maybe something like Morphling MX & Morphling T, anyways just some thoughts 

I have never played MTG but I like the idea 

[gaiden]

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

[Loligagger]

What about adding three LEDs on the controller board for caps/scroll/num lock?

[attheicearcade]

What about adding three LEDs on the controller board for caps/scroll/num lock?

Possible but not considered in this version. Maybe will add them when I revise them to fix some issues down the line. Right now it would be possible to use the Teensy LED as some sort of indicator.

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

I guess anything will do for MX provided it is supported by the chosen firmware.

[suicidal_orange]

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

It's a split board so the easiest option would be a Teensy in one side and an IO expander in the other, then you can use Ergodox firmware.  Otherwise you have to run 12(?) wires between the halves which is a thick cable

[Tom P.]

I'm interested in both the fully-assembled board and the case itself.

I'm interested in the case because it's adjustable, and for something to be properly ergonomic, it needs to be adjustable for individual needs and preferences; my car's seat is very comfortable to me only because it let me make it comfortable. Between the adjustability and the stellar industrial design, this may be "The Final Case" for me, so I will likely want multiple.

I would prefer 5 keys, not 4, for both "pinky" columns.

I would prefer the fully-assembled Topre board but I would really like to know how bottoming-out sounds on a board like this first. I know that the iconic "thock" of bottoming out on most Topre keyboards (and the lack thereof on most clones) is due more to the physical properties of the case (and your desk!) than the switches themselves. I would prefer to know, before buying, if the open-air metal case has a thinner and less satisfying bottoming-out sound. If it sounds like, say, my Realforce 45g switch tester keychain, I'd rather compromise and have a case modded with MX switches.

[LaPoune]

One fully assembled topre for me please.

[kaesve]

I'm also interested in a fully assembled set.

[gaiden]

[Q1] Where do ppl source topre keyset to fill this dox with?

[Q2] For the Topre option how many g are the springs?

[Q3] If I choose MX path is there any reason for getting option 2? I'd imagine MX path would just be straight hand-wiring is this correct?

thanks and please keep the progress updated, i think this could be the only ergodox i would use. i bought/assembled an infinite dox and the thumb clusters were a pretty big disappointment to me. this one looks very promising! i also like the natural curves on the columns! 

[suicidal_orange]

[Q1] Where do ppl source topre keyset to fill this dox with?

[Q2] For the Topre option how many g are the springs?

[Q3] If I choose MX path is there any reason for getting option 2? I'd imagine MX path would just be straight hand-wiring is this correct?

thanks and please keep the progress updated, i think this could be the only ergodox i would use. i bought/assembled an infinite dox and the thumb clusters were a pretty big disappointment to me. this one looks very promising! i also like the natural curves on the columns! 

Q1 and Q2 - this IC is for a case and Topre controller, you need a Topre keyboard to take the switches and keycaps from to build it even if you buy option 3.

Q3 - Buying a PCB you can't use will support the buy so you might get some karma?  As above, handwire would need a Teensy (or similar) and an IO expander.

[FrostyToast]

Keycaps are going to be a possible issue.
Only the fullsize board will cover them completely and even then you'll have mismatching rows.

You will end up with 2 vertical 2u caps from the numpad, an r4 "0" from the numpad, and an r1 backspace.
I guess the other option is to buy an additional keyset, but that will be extra costly.

[drawnwren]

Too late to register interest for 3?

[gaiden]

Too late to register interest for 3?

I don't think the signup form is even up yet. But super interested in one.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[attheicearcade]

Don't worry about missing out, I'm just getting a gauge on interest!

Keycaps are going to be a possible issue.
Only the fullsize board will cover them completely and even then you'll have mismatching rows.

You will end up with 2 vertical 2u caps from the numpad, an r4 "0" from the numpad, and an r1 backspace.
I guess the other option is to buy an additional keyset, but that will be extra costly.

Hopefully these should mitigate some of the keycap issues with using normal Topre boards:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/56tpxz/buying_topre_to_mx_adapters_for_05_a_piece/

[Tom P.]

You can also get 2u DCS MX-compatible vertical ABS or PBT keycaps, in convenient 4-packs, from SP: http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-2-space-pack-of-4/

[gaiden]

OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great  thanks 

[drawnwren]

Sweet, I'm interested in the 3rd option.

[attheicearcade]

OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great  thanks 

This thread was to gauge whether I could sell enough to pay off the high investment cost of making a full working prototype

[FrostyToast]

well I would definitely buy the board with assembled electronics. Or, at least, the parts included.

[robotmaxtron]

Interested in assembled electronics and topre.

[hoggy]

Interested in option 3.

[noobiest]

Been lurking for a while, but definitely interested in option #1

[keyboardlover321]

I would defenitley be interested in option 3. An ergonomic topre keyboard that is like this sounds insane! You need to start selling these I think a lot of people would buy them.

[jaffers]

I just went and read your whole thread over at deskthority. All I can say is brilliant work. Plenty evidence of well thought out innovation

I really like the concept of adjustable ergonomics and think your approach to it works great and at the same time you've managed to keep it quite clean! It doesn't look like a garage job!

Fairly reasonable pricing too, I think I might just have to pick one of these up at some point,  I'll admit that I'd been a little wary about ergonomic keyboards but you've managed to intrigue me!

[Dominathan]

#3 please! This looks awesome!  Reminds me of the Dactyl

[Tafryn]

Sign me up for option #3.

[NERVOUS]

Just made an account to say I would be interested in option 3. Case and assembled electronics

[soVn]

Highly interested in #3 as well! Preferably cherry MX (:

[yorgasor]

I'm extremely interested!  How programmable is it?  Can I decide the keyboard layout (like the Infinity Ergo Dox)?  Or will it all be pre-programmed and hard coded?

[vmbray]

Very interested, made an account so I could vote. I just joined the drop for the Godspeed keyswitches and was planning on joining the ergodox drop but then saw this in the comments. I would be particularly interested in a setup with MX and pcbs, iiuc the option 1 would require stringing lots of wires between switches which would be satisfying in a max headroom way but not very attractive to actually do. But yeah either way if I can mount MX in it I would buy something, that is just too cool of a keyboard.

[cquiroz]

I'd be very interested on a fully assembled topre split keyboard, count me in

[oj3]

Yes, I would absolutely  lust over a assembled offering. 

[kentt]

I'm in. This is my dream.

[down2clown]

I just came across this project and it sounds fantastic. I'd put money down for option 3 and shipping to the US, or just an option with the included but not assembled electronics. I'm very excited to see how this project plays out.

[Bromono]

I told my self no more keyboards and to retire with the HHKB.

But I would buy this.

Edit: Option 3

[waboni]

Dear attheicearcade, what a great project idea; I'm also following you at DESKTHORITY, please count me in with option 3, this is by far the most sophisticated as well as ergonomic oriented Keyboard to date. Keep it up.

[suicidal_orange]

I'm extremely interested!  How programmable is it?  Can I decide the keyboard layout (like the Infinity Ergo Dox)?  Or will it all be pre-programmed and hard coded?

No point having a custom board that's not fully programmable - it will be

Yes, I would absolutely  lust over a assembled offering. 

I'd be very interested on a fully assembled topre split keyboard, count me in

Just checking you guys are aware that 'fully assembled' means the chips are soldered on the PCBs, but to build a working board you'll need to dismantle a Topre keyboard to get switches and wire them up?

Very interested, made an account so I could vote. I just joined the drop for the Godspeed keyswitches and was planning on joining the ergodox drop but then saw this in the comments. I would be particularly interested in a setup with MX and pcbs, iiuc the option 1 would require stringing lots of wires between switches which would be satisfying in a max headroom way but not very attractive to actually do. But yeah either way if I can mount MX in it I would buy something, that is just too cool of a keyboard.

The trouble with the idea of PCBs for the switches is that they'd need to be bent, even if someone is willing to make them the spacing between switches will be weird so would need some clever maths to work that out.  This is primarily a Topre project so they're not going to happen, the closest you can get is Enabler PCBs for individual switches but they still need wiring together...

Besides handwiring can look great if you take your time, as demonstrated by Yoe:


This was his first attempt!

[Dominathan]

#3 please! This looks awesome!  Reminds me of the Dactyl

It doesn't need switches, though.  Just the diodes and the chips

[Corusco]

I'm rolling in late on this, but I would be a definite buy for option 2.

[Shoshin]

Want to buy option 3 - Pre-built with topre.

[WNovizar]

Is option 3 includes topre switches?

[bbrotha]

Option 3 topre for me.

[suicidal_orange]

Is option 3 includes topre switches?

No.  In the words of the designer (with added bold):

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

[limti]

On the MX front: what about a flex PCB for each column? A little bit like the Kinesis method, but with separate columns.

[suicidal_orange]

On the MX front: what about a flex PCB for each column? A little bit like the Kinesis method, but with separate columns.
(Attachment Link)

That would be ideal but can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?  If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?

Only when both are 'yes' will it be worth attempting to measure the spacing required

[limti]

... can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?

I'll get a quote for 1k, and we'll find out.

If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?

Soldering is the easy part. I've hand-soldered eroded traces on my wife's Kinesis. Their PCB is a good example of stiff flex which still needs strong mechanicals. See some of the images, here: https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+keyboard+teardown+images

Linking is the tricky part. Connectors can be cheap, but cables can be spendy - then there's the routing. Hand-soldering wires is also easy - depending on routing, again. Routing must maintain the aesthetic and allow for the mechanical adjustments.

Other items:
 - Since OP understands the problems with feature creep, any MX option must not impede the Topre effort.
 - The controller PCBs could easily be redone the same size with Ergodox components. Actually, I'll have a look at that part, as well.
 - Measurements might not even be needed. If OP exports a row as a STEP file, Altium makes it easy to define regions from any flat surface on the 3d body. Other ecad could use DXFs.

[suicidal_orange]

... can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?

I'll get a quote for 1k, and we'll find out.

If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?

Soldering is the easy part. I've hand-soldered eroded traces on my wife's Kinesis. Their PCB is a good example of stiff flex which still needs strong mechanicals. See some of the images, here: https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+keyboard+teardown+images

Linking is the tricky part. Connectors can be cheap, but cables can be spendy - then there's the routing. Hand-soldering wires is also easy - depending on routing, again. Routing must maintain the aesthetic and allow for the mechanical adjustments.

Other items:
 - Since OP understands the problems with feature creep, any MX option must not impede the Topre effort.
 - The controller PCBs could easily be redone the same size with Ergodox components. Actually, I'll have a look at that part, as well.
 - Measurements might not even be needed. If OP exports a row as a STEP file, Altium makes it easy to define regions from any flat surface on the 3d body. Other ecad could use DXFs.

Ah so it was not a casual comment, hard to tell from so few words

I guess these flexible PCBs are thicker than I was thinking, that's good.  If so the routing connections is easy enough - column down one side with a pad to go to the controller and two pads to the diode the other side of each switch for linking rows.  Then you just trim your connecting wires to fit your stagger.  Only talking of inch or two long pieces so if too long/short try again - the basis of my 'tough enough' concern (I don't think there's room for a connector between columns)

If CAD can work it out great but I'd think you'd need the measurement before getting an accurate quote?  Will probably be close enough to see if it's faesible...

I'm thinking an MX (and alps?) case run first to raise r&d money for the Topre effort would be the way to go, but if MOQ will allow two files in the same order Topre people could have a pretty case to look at while waiting for their controller.  But that would be up to the OP - I'm just a fan of the design like everyone else )

[livingspeedbump]

Id be interested in case and electronics.

[limti]

I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.

Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.

[gaiden]

I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.

Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.

I can get behind this. The price seems realistic and sounds reasonable enough. Maybe OP can look into this for a complete MX package option.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[suicidal_orange]

I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.

Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.

Not bad at all!  How much for single sided? If you've got a joining wire you'd may as well solder it the other side of the trace on the same side of the board...

Or if it's not much cheaper we could put an LED circuit on the back?

[limti]

How much for single sided? If you've got a joining wire you'd may as well solder it the other side of the trace on the same side of the board...

Gut feeling: going to 1-side won't help cost, in these quantities.

Or if it's not much cheaper we could put an LED circuit on the back?

Extra pads are free, and holes are cheap. It would be left up to the user whether it's worth five more wires per column just for LEDs.

[gaiden]

How much for single sided? If you've got a joining wire you'd may as well solder it the other side of the trace on the same side of the board...

Gut feeling: going to 1-side won't help cost, in these quantities.

Or if it's not much cheaper we could put an LED circuit on the back?

Extra pads are free, and holes are cheap. It would be left up to the user whether it's worth five more wires per column just for LEDs.

I remember OP stated he doesn't care for LEDs at all but i sincerely hope this (soft PCB with LED support) would be an option for MX side.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[clappingcactus]

Absolutely interested in both Options 2 or Option 3 for Topre.

[jal]

Nothing useful to add other than this is really, really cool.

[J-Schweezy]

I'm very much interested in this project. Count me in for option 3. I'm happy to do assembly and soldering, but PCB manufacturing is outside my skill level.

This is going to be the perfect input device, great work so far.

[FioraCorp]

I'm in.
Option 3, MX, though i'd be totally down with this being my first Topre board, too.
Heh, wouldn't that be crazy.

[attheicearcade]

I remember OP stated he doesn't care for LEDs at all but i sincerely hope this (soft PCB with LED support) would be an option for MX side.

Won't have LED support at least in the first revision  I don't have any interest personally but it might be a fun addition to the project from a design standpoint. Not yet though.

I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.

Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.

I haven't explored flex PCBs because I did think they'd be much more expensive. I'll have to think about the best way to do it.

I'm thinking an MX (and alps?) case run first to raise r&d money for the Topre effort would be the way to go, but if MOQ will allow two files in the same order Topre people could have a pretty case to look at while waiting for their controller.  But that would be up to the OP - I'm just a fan of the design like everyone else )

Indeed I do need to raise money for it, I want to build a full prototype before I take people's money (I don't know if the column design will actually be good!). Takes a more significant investment than I'm comfortable making given the idea might not work out. Aside from crowdfunding - which might end up in people not getting anything and losing money - I'm quietly working on a split HHKB which might be able to serve this purpose.

[clappingcactus]

Indeed I do need to raise money for it, I want to build a full prototype before I take people's money (I don't know if the column design will actually be good!). Takes a more significant investment than I'm comfortable making given the idea might not work out. Aside from crowdfunding - which might end up in people not getting anything and losing money - I'm quietly working on a split HHKB which might be able to serve this purpose.

How much money are we talking here? I'd be totally up for crowdfunding the prototype and I would expect nothing in return and would still buy the final product at full price on release/pre-order.

[Tom P.]

How much money are we talking here? I'd be totally up for crowdfunding the prototype and I would expect nothing in return and would still buy the final product at full price on release/pre-order.

So would I. The advancement of the human interface should not have to wait!

[snowkid2themax]

I haven't done extensive SMD soldering so I'd prefer Option 3, but wouldn't mind Option 2 either. Hope it's not too late for the interest check!

[fisofo]

Option 3!

[attheicearcade]

I haven't done extensive SMD soldering so I'd prefer Option 3, but wouldn't mind Option 2 either. Hope it's not too late for the interest check!

Don't worry, this isn't a fast moving project 

How much money are we talking here? I'd be totally up for crowdfunding the prototype and I would expect nothing in return and would still buy the final product at full price on release/pre-order.

I was quoted around £600 for much of the single keyboard case parts - without fasteners etc. That would be the biggest spend, but of course I don't know if it will actually work out which is why I'm not particularly happy about crowdfunding. We will see 

[v6ak]

Short: If I can get Ergodox-like key layout, I am interested in the MX version. I don't care much about the extra key in the innermost column, but two removed keys from the bottommost column does not look well for me. I remember you have mentioned that I can go this way, but I am not sure if I can go this way in this revision.

Long: I am an ErgoDox user. Maybe I am not as conservative as it might look at the first sight. I am considering using ErgoDox as a portable keyboard and your keyboard (say ErgoDox 3D) as a more comfortable but non-portable one. Ideally, I would use the same TMK firmware with the same layout. This could prevent me from need to learn two different layout and switching between them.

I believe that the MX version could be used with Teensy and the TMK firmware for Ergodox (i.e. cubuanic's fork) without much modifications (if any). I believe that the only part that requires modification is the martix (plus layout, of course).

[BetaC]

Awesome look. I'd be in for option 3.

[rtmf]

In for option 3 as well. Really concerned about how I'll source topre w/ mx sliders though...

[Tom P.]

In for option 3 as well. Really concerned about how I'll source topre w/ mx sliders though...

There are still plenty of NovaTouch TKL's out there, that's an option.
Then there are clones like the Plum84 (on Aliexpress, and Massdrop right now, has 35g Topre clone switches).
Then, you could just buy a Topre board and some separate MX sliders like these.

So don't be concerned!

And don't be worried about getting clone switches. It's not so much the domes, sliders and housings that make genuine Topre boards sound great as it is the case, and you'll be using a different (awesome) case.

[Tshort]

I'm interested in any of the options. I'm most interested in 3 then 2 then 1.

[BSmith333]

Option three with topre switches is my dream

[ticktwo]

beautiful

[IonutZ]

Read everything on DT, would love to have one! Amazing work on capsense and design and everything!

[nsmechkb]

The board in the renders is gorgeous. I would totally be in for number 3, Topre.

Edit:  One question.  I've heard some users complain about pain from long-term usage of the Ergodox thumb clusters.  Do you think this could happen with your design as well, or are the thumb clusters sufficiently adjustable to eliminate this?

[Tom P.]

The board in the renders is gorgeous. I would totally be in for number 3, Topre.

Edit:  One question.  I've heard some users complain about pain from long-term usage of the Ergodox thumb clusters.  Do you think this could happen with your design as well, or are the thumb clusters sufficiently adjustable to eliminate this?

It looks like this board has answers to the Ergodox thumb cluster's two big problems:

• The Ergodox thumb cluster is flat, requiring you move your thumbs "sideways" to press down.
  Whereas... This board's thumb cluster isn't flat; it's adjustable. It's not perfectly clear yet how adjustable it is, but it should at least mitigate this.
  
• The Ergodox thumb cluster is pretty far from the rest of your hand, requiring a bit of a stretch.
  Whereas... The thumb cluster of this board is 1 column closer to your fingers, because it doesn't have the inner columns of the Ergodox.
  

Because there are no prototypes yet, it's not yet clear how well this design solves those problems.

[nsmechkb]

It looks like this board has answers to the Ergodox thumb cluster's two big problems:

• The Ergodox thumb cluster is flat, requiring you move your thumbs "sideways" to press down.
  Whereas... This board's thumb cluster isn't flat; it's adjustable. It's not perfectly clear yet how adjustable it is, but it should at least mitigate this.
  
• The Ergodox thumb cluster is pretty far from the rest of your hand, requiring a bit of a stretch.
  Whereas... The thumb cluster of this board is 1 column closer to your fingers, because it doesn't have the inner columns of the Ergodox.
  

Because there are no prototypes yet, it's not yet clear how well this design solves those problems.

All fair observations.  Thanks for sharing these points!

[jknight]

+1 for interested in option #3 for a split topre keyboard.

For me, the closer it is to a split hhkb the better.

The thumb position and action on ergdox doesn't suit me either, nor do the extraneous keys - there are 16 keys on an ergodox I'd never use.
This looks nicely minimalist. Start a kickstarter for it?

[childofthehorn]

On the MX front: what about a flex PCB for each column? A little bit like the Kinesis method, but with separate columns.
(Attachment Link)

That would be ideal but can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?  If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?

Have you tried Seedstudio? I have had some flex stuff made through them and the price (while higher than normal PCB's) was on par for what I would pay for a 2.5 or 3oz trace board.

For small production runs : http://www.txcircuitry.com/txcirserv/index.html. They do a pretty good job.and you won't more than 2 layers anyway I would hope. 

[cooldiscretion]

Well this is incredibly impressive. I would be interested in one Topre.

[nastrovje]

Definitly in for a split topre.

[attheicearcade]

+1 for interested in option #3 for a split topre keyboard.

For me, the closer it is to a split hhkb the better.

You may be interested to follow my other project: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/another-custom-split-hand-topre-board-need-your-input-t14769.html

It is a mod for Realforce / other capacitive keyboards which is basically a split HHKB. I'm working on that before I continue developing this project. 

[jknight]

You may be interested to follow my other project: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/another-custom-split-hand-topre-board-need-your-input-t14769.html

It is a mod for Realforce / other capacitive keyboards which is basically a split HHKB. I'm working on that before I continue developing this project. 

Did you consider vertically aligned keys  (ortholinear) ?

[nsmechkb]

+1 for interested in option #3 for a split topre keyboard.

For me, the closer it is to a split hhkb the better.

You may be interested to follow my other project: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/another-custom-split-hand-topre-board-need-your-input-t14769.html

It is a mod for Realforce / other capacitive keyboards which is basically a split HHKB. I'm working on that before I continue developing this project. 

Whoaaaaa!  This is beautiful!  Incredible!

Edit:  Specifically, the split HHKB; post 3 from the link above.

[stix]

Indeed #3 all the way.

[Mneme]

I'd definitely be interested in alternative 1 for an MX build.

[gaiden]

[ccnewbie]

Wow this looks amazing. Interested to see the final product and build my own!

[shangrila500]

Aaaannnnddd I have to have one!

[yinzer]

Read through the deskthority post and I'll be extremely eager to see how this project advances.

I can't offer any technical knowledge, but if there is anything I can do to help, I'd be happy to do so (even if it's something like fundraising for a prototype)

[riotburn]

I am definitely interested, prob option 3. Great work

[IonutZ]

+1 if this ever makes it into a group buy!

[a_ak57]

I've always wanted to try an ergo board but have committed to the topre kool-aid, so I'd be interested in this (option 3 specifically).

[Eery Petrol]

PLEASE PROVIDE A MAILING LIST

I would love to buy option 3, but fear to lose sight of it by the time you will accept orders.

This thread started in October and it's currently February. What was your conclusion regarding investing into a prototype version? I'm looking to buy a keyboard for the long run and your designs are so compelling that I would postpone my choice until you roll out a shippable product. But for that I would hope to see how your project is progressing. The GitHub updates don't really cover that. Maybe a project blog?.

[rsadek]

I'm very interested. Too interested if you ask my wallet. But count me in, especially for the fully assembled and/or case only options.
Ergo plus Topre would be a dream come true.

[Eery Petrol]

I would be interested in option 1; just the case. Is it possible for you to break the projects into chunks? Cherry MX compatibility sounds like an easier first step than Topre compatibility, so I was wondering if you could ship a Cherry ready case before finishing the whole product? Would also mean you'd get some funds during the project.


It looks like a marvelous beast and I would love to just hook some cherries into it and connect those to one tiny PCB.

[zfhrp7]

It's amazing!!
Sign me up in Opnion 3.

That I have Topre keyboards used to use but hardly use now must be for this project.

[ns90]

I'm sold on option 3.

[RominRonin]

OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great  thanks 

This thread was to gauge whether I could sell enough to pay off the high investment cost of making a full working prototype

I'm interested in an mx case which I could hand wire.

[Krakob]

I'm quite interested, seems like the logical continuation of the dactyl which I'm greatly interested in

[RominRonin]

You know what would be great? An ALPS compatible version...

Just saying...
 

[nLights]

This is exactly what I've been looking for, 2 cases for MX please!

[ramnes]

Interested.

[StarPupil]

I'd drop the full $200 for either MX or Topre versions, as I really despise soldering SMDs. I'd have to cannibalize my Novatouch or buy a Realforce to tear down, but I feel like that would be totally worth it.

[flopix]

Just found this. I'm interested too! I hope it gets to GB stage

[felipehn]

I'm interested
please make it happen

[Jolly_Green_Giant]

I'd love to get in on one. Option 3, I have a donor board all ready to go too (assuming I can somehow cannibalize a HHKB for everything!)

[MUMU]

Should be in for option 3 in topre if I find a way to make it fit in my 330-370 euro budget....
ps:That split hhkb .

[flopix]

I've been looking at the BOM. Why did you settle for TRRS?

I'm asking because I've got an ergodox and my TRRS cable is busted and I'm thinking to mod it further with USB-C..

[DocHoliday]

I'd buy the case and build an MX board.

How's the project coming along? Any updates for us?

[K_Soze]

I am looking everywhere for a Topre Ergodox like keyboard, so here I am .
 

I like the actuation point changer and the MX caps compatibility of the Topre Realforce RGB keyboard.
I also know you dislike rgb leds and won't support them, but would the rbg topre switches work with you pcb (and will it be possible to choose the actuation point per switch) ?
Amazing work, you are building the perfect keyboard !

[nobleslight]

This looks incredible, is this project still active?

[Xiaojun27]

the design looks great, great job there~~~ wondering how is this project going, really want to have one.