Author Topic: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard  (Read 1060 times)

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Offline Tainado

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Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« on: Mon, 03 May 2021, 23:23:31 »
Hi there,

I wonder have anyone found a way to weakening springs ? I have a 50 gram  Keychron Optical - Low Profile switch
Reduce to below 30 gram would be "ideal" for my case

 I use this keyboard primarily to play Competitive CSGO . 50 gram is a a bit stiff for me to counter strafing (in game technique) . Since I only need to reduce to spring weight on A , S , D and W , therefore , I hoping not to pay 40$ ( included shipping ) for the new set of switches .

Since this is a low profile , the spring is a bit hard to find at lower weight with proper dimensions .
Length-      10.16 mm
Diameter-   3.175 mm


I heard that we can torch a compressed spring for awhile to weakening the spring in Automotive . But this sounds a bit too harsh for switch spring  , just my guess.

ALso , if anyone can recommend any extreme low latency - low profile switch/keyboard for FPS gaming

I know there is g915 Lightspeed but build quality and the rattling switches just turned me off

Any input helps

Thanks everyone

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 00:07:38 »
never messed with the switches you're talking about. there are replacements for mx & alps (both different sizes) but yours being low profile, they're probably too long.

i wonder if springs for the kailh choc switches would be any closer? they are a low profile mechanical switch.... you could try looking for specs of the springs in those switches....

if you like the board other than the slightly heavy springs, $40 sounds like a no brainer to save on headaches and searching forever only to save a couple bucks... (just my opinion, especially with specialty switches)
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Online fpazos

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 02:11:27 »
Hi! Just remembered that you can find some strange kailh chocs on Aliexpress. There is one lineal 25g. Replacing a switch is quite easy for someone a bit knowledge on ironing.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOdAKHr

This one is 35g
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPTWqWZ

Also. There aren't significant differences between keyboards controllers frequencies. Not even for e sports. There are more significant things as having a 240hz screen, most common controllers have 16000hz, that doesnt mean that every cycle recognize and send the keypress but differences on this could be of few miliseconds.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 May 2021, 03:28:12 by fpazos »
 

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:00:48 »
never messed with the switches you're talking about. there are replacements for mx & alps (both different sizes) but yours being low profile, they're probably too long.

i wonder if springs for the kailh choc switches would be any closer? they are a low profile mechanical switch.... you could try looking for specs of the springs in those switches....

if you like the board other than the slightly heavy springs, $40 sounds like a no brainer to save on headaches and searching forever only to save a couple bucks... (just my opinion, especially with specialty switches)


That what I want to do , I just dont really deal them Keychron anymore , there is 1 key that randomly unresponsive . After a week of back and forth , I sent in a video proof , they went silent for 7 days straight , even after my second email .

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:06:46 »
Quote
Also. There aren't significant differences between keyboards controllers frequencies. Not even for e sports. There are more significant things as having a 240hz screen, most common controllers have 16000hz, that doesnt mean that every cycle recognize and send the keypress but differences on this could be of few miliseconds.

yeah, latency shouldn't be an issue with any hobby/custom keyboard. the only time it may be an issue, is if it's wireless, and there aren't to many wireless QMK compatible boards out there.

out of curiosity... what form factor are you using? full size, tkl, 60%, other?
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:07:15 »
Hi! Just remembered that you can find some strange kailh chocs on Aliexpress. There is one lineal 25g. Replacing a switch is quite easy for someone a bit knowledge on ironing.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mOdAKHr

This one is 35g
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPTWqWZ

Also. There aren't significant differences between keyboards controllers frequencies. Not even for e sports. There are more significant things as having a 240hz screen, most common controllers have 16000hz, that doesnt mean that every cycle recognize and send the keypress but differences on this could be of few miliseconds.



THank you ! I didnt know about that 25gram

About the latency , you're right . I have done some research , for 99% of player , this wont be matter . Just that there is a voice in the back of my head tells me to get the best possible so I wont have any thing to blame on when losing lol .

But honestly , good processing like the K65 Mini with low profile switch , short travel at 25gram should be good :)

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:11:38 »
Quote
THank you ! I didnt know about that 25gram

if you go too light you're really going to have to watch resting your fingers. ... and at that weight & linear, you won't be able to. i see lots of accidental keystrokes going that light.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:12:23 »
Quote
Also. There aren't significant differences between keyboards controllers frequencies. Not even for e sports. There are more significant things as having a 240hz screen, most common controllers have 16000hz, that doesnt mean that every cycle recognize and send the keypress but differences on this could be of few miliseconds.

yeah, latency shouldn't be an issue with any hobby/custom keyboard. the only time it may be an issue, is if it's wireless, and there aren't to many wireless QMK compatible boards out there.

out of curiosity... what form factor are you using? full size, tkl, 60%, other?


Im on wired pretty much all the time :)

Im on 75% at the moment , smaller the better for me. I used to be on Realforce TKL but I am really pushing it with that size . I need more space for mouse movement .

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 04:15:38 »
Quote
THank you ! I didnt know about that 25gram

if you go too light you're really going to have to watch resting your fingers. ... and at that weight & linear, you won't be able to. i see lots of accidental keystrokes going that light.


THat's good point ! I have a Niz Plum @ 35gram for work , I do sometimes rest my fingering accidentally when in reading on screen .

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 09:15:30 »
Quote
THat's good point ! I have a Niz Plum @ 35gram for work , I do sometimes rest my fingering accidentally when in reading on screen .

that's topre as well, so, 35 & topre (tactile) means actuation is probably like 45-50g which is a big difference from 35g linear actuation, or even 25g linear. the tactility adds to the spring pressure until activation.

i'd suggest getting an inexpensive mx keyboard to experiment with the endless array of mx switches & parts. there are a number of hotswap boards out there. or you could even just build a set of pcb's (without plate or case) from a place like keeb.io which will leave the switch totally open to be experimented with until you find something you like. if you go plateless or use plates that support switchtop opening you can change every part of the switch minus the bottom housing without desoldering anything. though this does not work with most kailh/outemu switches because they have one long clip on either side instead of 2 little clips  like most cherry/gateron variants.
- there are choc (low profile) boards & kits out there as well but there's a lot less options at this point than mx
- there are a couple things you can do to limit the travel of mx swithces
- some mx switches are designed with a higher or lower actuation points by how the legs on the stem are designed (this is the part that touches the contact leaves in the switch)

if you really want room for your mouse you could go with a split keyboard, and only use the one half when gaming, you could also setup a layer that's specific to your gaming with all your shortcuts/commands right there, turning your "keyboard" into a "gaming pad"
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 21:13:24 »
Quote
THat's good point ! I have a Niz Plum @ 35gram for work , I do sometimes rest my fingering accidentally when in reading on screen .

that's topre as well, so, 35 & topre (tactile) means actuation is probably like 45-50g which is a big difference from 35g linear actuation, or even 25g linear. the tactility adds to the spring pressure until activation.

i'd suggest getting an inexpensive mx keyboard to experiment with the endless array of mx switches & parts. there are a number of hotswap boards out there. or you could even just build a set of pcb's (without plate or case) from a place like keeb.io which will leave the switch totally open to be experimented with until you find something you like. if you go plateless or use plates that support switchtop opening you can change every part of the switch minus the bottom housing without desoldering anything. though this does not work with most kailh/outemu switches because they have one long clip on either side instead of 2 little clips  like most cherry/gateron variants.
- there are choc (low profile) boards & kits out there as well but there's a lot less options at this point than mx
- there are a couple things you can do to limit the travel of mx swithces
- some mx switches are designed with a higher or lower actuation points by how the legs on the stem are designed (this is the part that touches the contact leaves in the switch)

if you really want room for your mouse you could go with a split keyboard, and only use the one half when gaming, you could also setup a layer that's specific to your gaming with all your shortcuts/commands right there, turning your "keyboard" into a "gaming pad"


I didnt know that difference between Torpe and MX weight actuation , big thank !!!!

I did look into split option such as Moonlander  , a bit pricy and also , sometime I need to communicate with my teammate thru Chat . This is a no-go at the moment .

Would you pls elaborate more on how to limit the MX switch travel distance ?

I know Omnipoint switches from Steelseries boards let you adjust the actuation point to 0.4mm via software . However, I find myself react best when my finger bottom out the switch , so short travel distance would be a big plus for me .

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 May 2021, 23:33:37 »
Quote
Would you pls elaborate more on how to limit the MX switch travel distance ?

the oldest and simplest method is just adding orings to the underside of the cap. which also makes them a little quieter when bottoming out. though it does nothing for the stem return sound (when the stem hits the top housing).
- depending on the cap you can add one or many. one is usually good for caps that have a decent "cross" connecting the cap to the stem (as pictured below). others that are totally smooth all the way down (signature plastics caps) i've used up to 3 before it starts impeding on the actuation (cap not letting the stem travel down far enough to actuate the switch).
- it's a simple, cheap, adjustable & reversible trick you can try. add orings till the switch won't activate anymore, then take one oring off.
- they also come in different hardnesses, so you can play with the feel of the bottom out (softer or stiffer)
267764-0

some brands/models of switches are intentionally made with a higher activation point, so less travel before the switch activates. i know they exist but i don't remember which switches they were.
.... eh, i went back and searched, here's a couple to look at (and i'm sure there's many more)
the "speed" switches are the ones with the shorter travel distance until actuation
- cherry mx speed silver - Linear, 1.2 mm pre travel, 45 cN operating force
     https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-speed-silver.html
- gateron clear - linear 2mm Actuation | 4mm Bottom, 35g Operating | 40g Bottom
     https://novelkeys.xyz/products/gateron-switches?variant=37302516908199

decent tactiles with light springs can be nice as well (what i prefer, though i'm not a gamer).
with tactiles (non topre) you can activate the switch without bottoming out because the tactile bump should be in line with the actuation point. a lighter spring also usually lessens the tactile-ness of the switch.

moonlander... yes, expensive. and if it's anything like it's older brother the ergodox (which it is. it's just a variant of an ergodox). many find the thumb clusters uncomfortable or farther to reach for normal shortcuts.
- i was talking more along the lines of the keeb.io viterbi or iris or levinson (though, they have normal split staggered boards too) and really good prices to boot.

Quote
I didnt know that difference between Torpe and MX weight actuation , big thank !!!!
it's more the difference between linear & tactile actuation force. the linear slowly, evenly ramps up. with tactiles it's a sharper jump in force so you usually add 10-15g to the actuation force if it's tactile (vs linear) when picking springs etc....
- you can look at the force curves of different switches if you really want to dig into it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 May 2021, 23:53:17 by nevin »
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 05 May 2021, 00:02:40 »
Quote
Would you pls elaborate more on how to limit the MX switch travel distance ?

the oldest and simplest method is just adding orings to the underside of the cap. which also makes them a little quieter when bottoming out. though it does nothing for the stem return sound (when the stem hits the top housing).
- depending on the cap you can add one or many. one is usually good for caps that have a decent "cross" connecting the cap to the stem (as pictured below). others that are totally smooth all the way down (signature plastics caps) i've used up to 3 before it starts impeding on the actuation (cap not letting the stem travel down far enough to actuate the switch).
- it's a simple, cheap, adjustable & reversible trick you can try. add orings till the switch won't activate anymore, then take one oring off.
- they also come in different hardnesses, so you can play with the feel of the bottom out (softer or stiffer)
(Attachment Link)

some brands/models of switches are intentionally made with a higher activation point, so less travel before the switch activates. i know they exist but i don't remember which switches they were.
.... eh, i went back and searched, here's a couple to look at (and i'm sure there's many more)
the "speed" switches are the ones with the shorter travel distance until actuation
- cherry mx speed silver - Linear, 1.2 mm pre travel, 45 cN operating force
     https://www.cherrymx.de/en/mx-original/mx-speed-silver.html
- gateron clear - linear 2mm Actuation | 4mm Bottom, 35g Operating | 40g Bottom
     https://novelkeys.xyz/products/gateron-switches?variant=37302516908199

decent tactiles with light springs can be nice as well (what i prefer, though i'm not a gamer).
with tactiles (non topre) you can activate the switch without bottoming out because the tactile bump should be in line with the actuation point. a lighter spring also usually lessens the tactile-ness of the switch.

moonlander... yes, expensive. and if it's anything like it's older brother the ergodox (which it is. it's just a variant of an ergodox). many find the thumb clusters uncomfortable or farther to reach for normal shortcuts.
- i was talking more along the lines of the keeb.io viterbi or iris or levinson (though, they have normal split staggered boards too) and really good prices to boot.

Quote
I didnt know that difference between Torpe and MX weight actuation , big thank !!!!
it's more the difference between linear & tactile actuation force. the linear slowly, evenly ramps up. with tactiles it's a sharper jump in force so you usually add 10-15g to the actuation force if it's tactile (vs linear) when picking springs etc....
- you can look at the force curves of different switches if you really want to dig into it.

THIS opened some brand new doors for me . Thank you for much for your detailed input !!! Really appreciate it

I got some home-works and research to do this weekend lol

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 05 May 2021, 00:06:06 »
yep. you've been bitten by the bug now....  let me apologize to your wallet ahead of time....
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Tainado

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 05 May 2021, 02:28:44 »
No worry , time to learn Fasting  :-X :-X :-X

Offline nevin

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 05 May 2021, 07:34:22 »
267772-0
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Rayndalf

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Re: Weakening Springs in Switch ? - Gaming focused keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 09 May 2021, 08:55:53 »
Also. There aren't significant differences between keyboards controllers frequencies. Not even for e sports. There are more significant things as having a 240hz screen, most common controllers have 16000hz, that doesnt mean that every cycle recognize and send the keypress but differences on this could be of few miliseconds.
This is absolutely true of modern boards, but I had to swap the controller in my Kinesis Model 130 because I couldn't successfully crouch jump on to the boxes on Cache T side spawn. My friends kept bullying me about it.


New MX springs are pretty inexpensive, I'm assuming the springs out of some Cherry reds would work fine, but you can even find lighter ones (the switch friction means they may take longer to reset though, so you may need to pull your finger up quicker too).