Suggestions for Advantage keyboard

[vvp]

Noooo. Split it in half. Make two halves.

I disagree. Let them release what they have done or almost have done. Otherwise we risk feature creep and a keyboard which is never going to be released since features are being added late in the cycle. Better a good keyboard but available now than a perfect keyboard which does not exist.
Kinesis can make new versions which add more features (like e.g. a split keyboard) later when they release what is almost ready.

If you need split kinesis like keyboard so much then search this site. There are posts about how people did split their Kinesis Contoured keyboards (e.g. bluecar5556, and I think InputNirvana (or sordna?) did it too).
There are also new projects about how to build a split contoured keyboard:

• Katy (K80CS)
• rsheldiii's keyboard
• dactyl cave

[dusanx]

Noooo. Split it in half. Make two halves.

I disagree. Let them release what they have done or almost have done. Otherwise we risk feature creep and a keyboard which is never going to be released since features are being added late in the cycle. Better a good keyboard but available now than a perfect keyboard which does not exist.
Kinesis can make new versions which add more features (like e.g. a split keyboard) later when they release what is almost ready.

If you need split kinesis like keyboard so much then search this site. There are posts about how people did split their Kinesis Contoured keyboards (e.g. bluecar5556, and I think InputNirvana (or sordna?) did it too).
There are also new projects about how to build a split contoured keyboard:

• Katy (K80CS)
• rsheldiii's keyboard
• dactyl cave

Sadly I have zero skills with cutting and gluing and stuff. I bet those are all fine keyboards you linked but they all have specific angles and wells, which makes new keyboard adoption harder. We can hardly talk about feature creep since this thread exists since 2012.

I was just reacting to OP basically saying 'it is looking the same on the outside', while people asked for split and non rubbery function keys years ago. Maybe I was reading it wrong, we'll see.

I love my LF, layout is perfect, but those two halves have to be able to split meter away if needed. I catch myself wishing to stretch during long programming sessions and I can't move halves away because it is solid block keyboard.

If all the changes, after three years of announcements, turn out to be bugfixing software and electronics inside, I'd be bit confused.

[user888]

Thanks for your patience everyone, we are really close!

Just so you know what to expect, the overall design of the keyboard is going to be pretty much the same. What will be changed is all of the electronics. As some of you know, our current Advantage keyboard have experienced some compatibility issues (mainly the Windows 7 USB 3.0 problem). Our main focus has been redesigning the electronics from the ground up to resolve all of these issues and eliminate some of the old bugs (stuck modifier for example, as well as add some really cool new features. There were a few delays on the way but we are very close now.

Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

I think keeping the design mostly the same is a good thing, but I really do hope you've planned for two extra modifier keys at the bottom left and right.

[hoggy]

The advantage has always been good for modifications, I hope the new version will keep it in mind - how about selling kits for palm keys and the like?

[jamadagni]

Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...

[naz]

Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...

a few post back he said "BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!", so at least there was an intention to change them at some point

[sordna]

The advantage has always been good for modifications, I hope the new version will keep it in mind - how about selling kits for palm keys and the like?

+1

[natas206]

Thanks for your response. Most work done on the electronics and software side. On the hardware side I already learnt that you'd replace the rubber dome F-keys with Cherry ML. Is that still the case?

AFAIK natas206 has not announced (at least on this thread) that they are going to replace the F keys as requested. He only said they have upgraded the electronics, and key caps are not electronics. It would make for more cost too...

a few post back he said "BTW, Rubber function rows will be a thing of the past!", so at least there was an intention to change them at some point

You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.

Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

A split version could come at a later date but we really need to get this new version of the electronics out there ASAP.

[hoggy]

I can understand that.

Will the new controller be compatible with older keyboards? Will it be available separately?

The advantage's controller was the best in the biz for quite a while...

[dusanx]

A split version could come at a later date

I'd pay 50% more than regular price for properly split (cable, bluetooth, who cares) version. The one that's split in factory and looking good.
I believe I am not alone in wanting this, see post #3 in this thread for instance.

I really hope it won't take another several years to see it done.

[jamadagni]

You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.

That's good!

Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?

And what is the projected retail price?

[vvp]

Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?

Some were already announced:
* PC application to view/redefine remaps and macros
* bug fixes and it will work with with USB3 on Win7

You can get these with chrisandreae's controller and firmware. Well his PC application works on linux only.  On windows, it needs to move control packets from HID controlled endpoint to something more capable (like a WinUSB controlled endpoint plus add at least a dummy interface so that WinUSB driver is loaded at all). Somebody may do it sometimes.

I'm curious whether there is something more to the kinesis firmware too.

[Steven Tammen]

I would be a big fan of being able to remap the firmware by means of software rather than built in reprogrammability. It would make switching to layouts other than the built in Dvorak/QWERTY much better (though I'm sure this is convenience not necessity speaking). If better layering support was included too, I'd be sold completely.

On a similar note, providing the option for blank key-caps again would be appreciated by those of us who eschew normal positions. Blank key-caps are just prettier too .

[vvp]

I would be a big fan of being able to remap the firmware by means of software rather than built in reprogrammability.

I expect remapping using a PC application will be there in addition to the original on-the-fly remap/macro. On-the-fly remap is cool when you want to make a new layer with just a few keys changed to test an idea.

[natas206]

You're right I haven't announced anything but it's definitely the plan to replace the rubber f-keys.

That's good!

Also, it's not just bug fixes here we completely re-designed the electronics from the ground up, so it's not like changing the firmware  or tweaking a couple things; it's been a complete redesign. With this new design comes new features that weren't possible on the older models (really cool features).

Can you give details on at least some of those "really cool features"?

And what is the projected retail price?

I can provide some small details.

There will be several ways to program the keyboard. On-board programming will remain. A non-driverless, non-application method and we also plan on having an app available as well. You will have the ability to upload/download your layout(s) to/from your computer directly to the keyboard. I'm sure many of you who have advanced programming know how time consuming and frustrating it can be if the memory of the keyboard is ever wiped and you have to start from scratch. This way you will be able to save your layout and share them with others as well. If you create a cool layout you could in theory upload it to a link on Geekhack and share it with the community. Others could then make their own tweaks and so on. You can also store multiple layouts in the keyboard.

[jamadagni]

@natas206: Great to know about the Cherry F keys!

Did I miss anything or haven't you yet posted the ETA? And I noticed you diplomatically haven't yet outed the price... ;-)

[natas206]

@natas206: Great to know about the Cherry F keys!

Did I miss anything or haven't you yet posted the ETA? And I noticed you diplomatically haven't yet outed the price... ;-)

I don't have a set date yet.  The cost should be right around the same. Possibly a tad higher at first just because costs are higher for us, but nothing drastic (maybe $10-$25 more).

[davkol]

Cherry ML confirmed, it seems.

[hoggy]

Yay!

[vatin]

Cherry ML confirmed, it seems.

Is this the new advantage?

[mannelig]

Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.

[highend]

Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.

In a year or two? But only if you're lucky. Veeeeery lucky^^

[m0j0]

Seems to be chances to upgrade old Advantage with new ML-switches are high.

In a year or two? But only if you're lucky. Veeeeery lucky^^

I cannot comment on how quickly they will release the new Advantage2.

I will say that I've had the pleasure of testing a prototype, and I'm eagerly looking forward to its release. I think it'll be worth the wait. I will not comment on the new functionality; I figure Kinesis will release details when they deem the time is right. However, I was very impressed with the functionality of the prototype I tested, and I plan to order two (one for work, one for home) when they're available. It's literally a case of, "...shut up and take my money!"   

[glax]

Cherry ML confirmed, it seems.

so let's see what's there.

Could not see a cable, although it might be visible in that perspective. So bluetooth option not ruled out yet ;-)
Mechanical function keys.
It seems that rubber keycaps are replaced by hard ones. Number, size and layout of functional keys seems the same.
Modified function keys allow switching between dvorac/qwerty (F3/F4), and pc/mac/win layout (F5, F6, F7). Seems to replace "=p" "=m" "=c".
Cannot read F8 key. May be something like "clear map".
F1 modifier gives a status, maybe something like "=s".

Any ideas for F1/F2 modifier?

So as hinted by natas206, same layout, rubber function keys replaced by mech switches with maintained layout, functional enhancements. For me, that is enough to wait for the new keyboard for buying.

However, I would have loved to have standard sized function keys (F1-F12) as a further row ontop of the number's row integrated into the key wells, maybe with the keys not fitting there (esc, print, scrlock, break, keypad, prog) added as further three-key-thumb-columns left and right the thumb blocks, respectively (where they seem to be sill easier accessible than in the present position). But I understand that this required a major overhaul including a fundamental redesign of the case, which might lead to considerabe increased production costs.

So let's see the device when it is finished.

[vvp]

Removing "=s", "=p", "=m", "=c" special chords is a god-sent present for any programmer.
Imagine how bad it is when you do not release = key quickly enough while typing expressions and the result is a switch of your keyboard to a different mode!

[natas206]

Removing "=s", "=p", "=m", "=c" special chords is a god-sent present for any programmer.
Imagine how bad it is when you do not release = key quickly enough while typing expressions and the result is a switch of your keyboard to a different mode!

Yes, that could be really frustrating! There was a bit of a work-around to anyone that experienced this problem by creating a single key "=" macro stored in the "=" key. This then disables the equals plus letter key command. And for the times you legit need to switch modes, you can temporarily disable macros (Progrm+F10).

[Torious]

I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

[vvp]

natas206: I used the workaround but it exposed some intermittent firmware bug which resulted in repeated keystrokes. I think it was repeated equal sign but I'm not sure. It was still a bit better situation since it is easier to notice a repeated keystrokes than a silent mode switch.

Torious: If you want to buy something then never wait for expected release date. Schedules slip all the time. Buy now and replace later if the new version is worth it. The only exception may be releases of complicated products (like e.g. a new phone) which are announced about a month in advance. When the release is announced so soon then it means the product is already developed and produced and they wait only for the retail stores to receive the items.

[m0j0]

I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

I already own two Advantage Pros--one for home, and one for the office. I'm actually considering picking up yet another Advantage, even though I *KNOW* that the Advantage2 is coming "Real Soon Now™".   

An additional keyboard is cheaper than a high-end KVM solution, especially since I have a mix of Linux, OS X, and Windows scattered throughout my home.

[cogito_ergo_sum]

1. Add an optional GUI to allow quicker programming and switching between layouts. However, keep the ability to program from the board.
2. Replace the rubber keys with something better.
3. Make the board slimmer.
4. Don't add trackpads or other pointing devices at the top. Leave the area open for users to modify themselves.   
5. Replicate the functionality of MouseKeys by toggling. Make it so those functions can be copied to the Kinesis footpad.

[chamcham]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post.
Please be gentle. 

1) I am not sure if this has already been suggested.
Sometimes I wish some characters had their own individual keys (instead of needing to press Shift every time).
Is it possible to add these extra keys to your keyboard?  Maybe adding some additional physical keys that have no default mappings.
They would be use for custom key mappings. I'm asking for more physical keys that the standard PC keyboard layouts.
So that you wouldn't need the Shift keys for many characters.


Maybe some of these left and right keys should be right next to each other.

WOULD LOVE TO ADD MORE PHYSICAL KEYS FOR THESE (especially for coding)
() Left and right parentheses
{} Left and right curly braces
[] Left and right brackets
<> Greater than and less than
: colon
; semicolon

NOT NECESSARY, BUT WOULD BE NICE
| Unix pipe
? question mark
# hashtag
@ at sign
$ dollar
% percent
+ plus sign
* asterik
& ampersand
~ tilde

2) Also, not sure if Kinesis already has it, but mapping Caps Lock to Ctrl in hardware would be nice.
3) Programmable keyboard layouts and assignments would be great as long as I can use them on  Linux and Mac. Installing keymapping software is not always an option. Especially in a corporate environment where we don't have admin privileges.

[jamadagni]

@chamcham: You know you can always remap your existing keys to produce these characters using your OS's keyboard layout configuration right?

[m0j0]

@chamcham: You know you can always remap your existing keys to produce these characters using your OS's keyboard layout configuration right?

Also, it's very easy to remap keys with the existing Kinesis Advantage keyboards, as well as record macros.

I used to always swap "Ctrl" and "Caps Lock" with "normal" keyboards, but I ceased the practice once I switched to the Kinesis. Since the modifier keys are activated by the thumbs, it was less necessary.

The side benefit is that I am now used to the "traditional" layout when using a "traditional" keyboard, so I no longer curse when I sit down at someone else's computer and START TYPING LIKE THIS.   

[cogito_ergo_sum]

The new changes, from what I've read so far, seem good. I'll still wait to see if there are any quality issues with the initial run before upgrading.

One potential problem I see is accidentally switching modes with the f-keys. However, since I'll remap some of those elsewhere (1qaz, embedded layer), it may not be a problem. Does anyone know of anything that might actually be a step backward with the new design?

Whatever Kinesis does, I hope the Advantage always keeps the ability to have a custom layout on locked-down corporate computers, without having to install software on them.

[vvp]

I used to always swap "Ctrl" and "Caps Lock" with "normal" keyboards, but I ceased the practice once I switched to the Kinesis. Since the modifier keys are activated by the thumbs, it was less necessary.

You can swap CapsLock with Escape now

[natas206]

The new changes, from what I've read so far, seem good. I'll still wait to see if there are any quality issues with the initial run before upgrading.

One potential problem I see is accidentally switching modes with the f-keys. However, since I'll remap some of those elsewhere (1qaz, embedded layer), it may not be a problem. Does anyone know of anything that might actually be a step backward with the new design?

Whatever Kinesis does, I hope the Advantage always keeps the ability to have a custom layout on locked-down corporate computers, without having to install software on them.

I believe switching modes will always involve the Program key, so it would be very difficult to accidentally switch (nearly impossible).

On-board programming will always be a feature, so any optional software is completely optional. 

[vivalarevolución]

Well, this is all interesting. I've exited the Ergonomic keyboard game (still have my mice), but good to see some new products.

[m0j0]

You can swap CapsLock with Escape now

That's actually somewhat tempting, especially since I'm a UNIX/Linux programmer and spend a LOT of time in the vi (actually Vim) text editor. I'm not fond of the rubbery Esc and function keys on the current Advantage series, and I'm looking forward to the mechanical keys on the Advantage2. I use the Esc key a lot more frequently than I use CapsLock.

[mrgoldenzombie]

Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs. 

PBT! PBT! PBT! PBT!

[SpAmRaY]

Blank keycaps (preferably PBT) is all I require.  Otherwise, it is pretty much perfect for my needs. 

PBT! PBT! PBT! PBT!

Dude give it a break.

[mivanov]

If it were truly split, i'd have bought  it already.

Preferably with a detachable cable unlike the Freestyle.(even if a proprietary one is used and not trrs)

Also those rubbery function keys...

Blue switches should also be an option.

Besides that - we could use more buttons for the thumbs plus those big buttons people mod into their keyboards.

As for pointing devices - I am against it, but if I had to choose - it'd be a trackball. a laser one, also 500/1000hz, sick of those optic 125hz trackballs.

It'd also be nice if one could order it with blank keycaps.(since some us of like to experiment with Colemak/Programmer's dvorak).

Software wise:
Being able to save/share layouts will be a neat feature. If you have the spare time, maybe implement some kind of chording? So one can use it with just one hand.

But if it had to  be just one change - SPLIT FTW

[chamcham]

How about large print keys?

Like this:

[natas206]

I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

[mivanov]

I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

Will it be fully split or not?

[natas206]

I've been waiting since late 2014 for the new keyboard. At that time, a Kinesis representative said the new Advantage was scheduled for 2015 Q1. Now it's Q4. That's fine and I understand these things happen. However, had I known, I would have bought an old Advantage end of 2014. So now my question, can you give *any* rough estimate? Say "first half of 2016" or "second half of 2016" or something?

I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

Will it be fully split or not?

It will not be fully split. I think I addressed that before but I know a lot of this has panned over a couple of years. The main difference is a complete redesign of the electronics from the ground up. The function rows. The overall layout is going to be very similar, however for a "Pro" model we are working on different things.

[mivanov]

I guess I will wait 1-2 years for the split In the meantime - what about the Freestyle then? I've heard about a new Freestyle that will be with Reds, is it going to be released soon and what about Browns/Blues(many of us prefer tactility over linearity)?

[highend]

I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

I've ordered a keyboardio... Didn't want to wait another <x> years for a new Kinesis 

[natas206]

I guess I will wait 1-2 years for the split In the meantime - what about the Freestyle then? I've heard about a new Freestyle that will be with Reds, is it going to be released soon and what about Browns/Blues(many of us prefer tactility over linearity)?

You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.

I can say confidently the new keyboard will be released before Half Life 3.  Hopefully. :/

I've ordered a keyboardio... Didn't want to wait another <x> years for a new Kinesis 

I was only teasing since this thread was created a long time ago and we had a few delays on the way, but honestly the new Advantage keyboard will come out in 2016. It won't be another 1+ years!

[vvp]

You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.

Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer

[davkol]

You heard correctly! A new Freestyle is coming out very soon. I will have more details to post in a couple of weeks.

Will the new Freestyle have contoured keywells?
No pressure, I can wait few weeks for the answer

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/kinesis-planning-split-ergo-gaming-board-t10662.html