[MO] The Geekhack Spring for switch modding (~50g)

[Nadger]

watch my video:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12790

Thanks for the video, thats with PCB mounted though, i assume that will not work for plate mounted boards.  At least according to random stuff i read on the interwebnets.com

Does the Ducky 1087 have the same problem?

Ducky 1087 has an aluminum plate in it, so yes you would run into the same problem.  Italian Stallion is refering to this i believe...but thats on a PCB mounted, not plate.

I couldnt find any guides to doing plate mounted without desoldering.

[Nkromancer]

I'm interested in 2 sets

[PRISONER 24601]

So is this as light as we can go? What is "the limit", so to speak, and would it be advisable to "push" said "limit"?

Thing is I'd like to turn one of my ol' G80-3000s into a feather-touch dream machine. This can be done, I believe. All I need is a new set of springs, some dental bands, 104 black MX stems, and about 3 hours of free time.
Oh, and a six pack of Fat Tire... And Hawkwind's "Warrior on the Edge of Time"

[sixty]

So is this as light as we can go? What is "the limit", so to speak, and would it be advisable to "push" said "limit"?

We can go lower in force I think, but I'm not sure if it would be any good. These 50g springs in blacks are already very light (at least to me), going any lighter might not work out in actual use. I guess we shall see once the springs are done what most people think of them. If some people still find them too heavy we could try 45g next.

[sixty]

I will be opening a second topic with ORDERS ONLY later today. Those of you who ordered "a couple" "maybe 1 or 2" "maybe ..." please make up your mind then, since I need actual numbers and not estimates to calculate to see when we reach the required MOQ.

Thanks!

[sixty]

Sixty, how would your selected spring change MX blues?

I currently do not have any non plate mounted blues to try. I might desolder some later.

[sixty]

Actual order topic is up here. Please try to keep discussion in this topic here and use the others for orders only. This will make my life easier when organizing the order. Due to my currently very limited internet access I would prefer not having to go through dozens of pages to find new orders.

So, if you announced your interest in this topic, please check to make sure I added you in the other topic. Those who were not sure what they would order yet, please confirm the actual amount.

[Moogle Stiltzkin]

i'm not a cherry modder, but i'm here to encourage you... BIG thumbs up, sixty!

Same sentiments.

Maybe if they came with the cherry switches as well i would have been interested.

[Supergleep]

Just bought a second Nostromo n52 from ebay to do a Ripster-like Cherry MX conversion with.

Sign me up for 2 sets please. Ghetto-smooth Cherry Reds here I come!

And just to confirm, the ghetto-Red recipe is a Cherry black switch with these springs, yes? (in lieu of the usual blue or brown springs)

[Lucien]

This is interesting enough to finally drag me out of lurker mode...

Is there a confirmed price yet?  I would definitely be in for one set of these, maybe two but that would depend on the final price.

[sixty]

Just bought a second Nostromo n52 from ebay to do a Ripster-like Cherry MX conversion with.

Sign me up for 2 sets please. Ghetto-smooth Cherry Reds here I come!

And just to confirm, the ghetto-Red recipe is a Cherry black switch with these springs, yes? (in lieu of the usual blue or brown springs)

They will not be IDENTICAL to Cherry reds, but very very similar in feel. These will have a few more coils and are a tiny bit smoother than the reds. I think the actual force on the real reds is 55g, ours is 50g.

For those that asked: I was not able to calculate out a confirmed price yet, please give me a bit so I can get a new offer based on the orders we have now.

[sixty]

45cn.  It's in the wiki but that gets obnoxious saying that all the time.

Yeah but its actually not. That might be the resistance in the assembled switch, but the actual spring resistance is higher.

[woody]

I currently do not have any non plate mounted blues to try. I might desolder some later.

Oh, crap. I forgot all the hard work needed for plate mounted switches' disassembly. My Filcos are safe - I am too lazy to try this.
Thumbs up and good luck with the spring order!

[kidchunks]

Hey sixty,
When is the deadline to have orders placed? I'm in the process of grabbing a cherry board this weekend and want to try this out. But want to make sure I obtain the board before I place an order for a set of the springs.

Thanks!

[sixty]

Sometime next week, I guess. We should have spare sets for later sales anyway, since I will be covering more of the order to make it possible.

[2084]

Can you pop the Steelseries 7G/6Gv2 switches without desoldering or same issue as with Filcos and Duckys?

[JBert]

Yeah but its actually not. That might be the resistance in the assembled switch, but the actual spring resistance is higher.

That sounds physically impossible to me...

Sure this is the same switch we are talking about? No room for errors?

[sixty]

That sounds physically impossible to me...

Sure this is the same switch we are talking about? No room for errors?

No, it is because when the spring is mounted in the switch, the pressure measured is that until the switch triggers (by people like us keyboard maniacs). Spring companies usually measure the resistance needed until the spring entirely collapses, thats why it took quite some time to figure out what we actually needed for a nice smooth spring. When I told them "around 50g" they came up with springs that would never work out in an MX spring.

[Soarer]

Springs ain't all that complicated, they just use different units to switches.

Cherry switch might actuate at, say, 60 cN, but the spring has a rate of 10 cN/mm and a relaxed length of 14 mm. Popping it in an MX switch compresses it to 10 mm, so the initial force would be 40 cN. MX travel is 2 mm to actuation, so that's another 20 cN making 60 cN.

I just picked easy numbers, but it looks much like a 'black' spring in my example

So yeah, they would understand a '50g' spring to mean a 50 cN/mm spring - 5 times stronger than blacks!

[sixty]

So yeah, they would understand a '50g' spring to mean a 50 cN/mm spring - 5 times stronger than blacks!

Right! That was the actual problem at first. Results were quite hillarious when I attempted to fit one into a switch.

Oh well, by now I learned quite a bit in the two visits to the spring company. I think my next project might be an MX opening tool. Seems these guys can also bend iron wire into shape for mass production.

[Soarer]

Right! That was the actual problem at first. Results were quite hillarious when I attempted to fit one into a switch.

I'll bet! I must admit I'm finding the idea of trying to close up a switch with a fifth of a kg (nearly half a pound, for the USians) pushing outwards quite funny!

Oh well, by now I learned quite a bit in the two visits to the spring company. I think my next project might be an MX opening tool. Seems these guys can also bend iron wire into shape for mass production.

Well I for one am glad you did, I'm down for two sets :-)

And the tool idea sounds cool, how many would you need to order?
Would be great to just push the tool down, hear four clicks, then pull. (If that could be made).

[nanu]

[strike]While we're on custom tools, maybe we could get custom-made Greenlee punches that are H-shaped, sorta. They'd be square, the same size of MX switches, so it'd go through preexisting plate-mount holes, yet also cut out the needed extra material so your MX opening tool go through and remove plate-mounted MX switches, too!

If they were reasonably priced I would desolder my Filco just so I have the ability to swap out springs easier.[/strike]

Or maybe we just get custom plates for entirely new keyboards, since that's always easier. This is where Deck keyboards' plates with long hole-slots per keyrow is superior in design (I can't find a pic).

[Parak]

Considering how many brown boards I have I'm not too interested in the springs, but I'd be all over the switch disassembly tool

[symphonic1985]

How is the ordering process coming along - do you have enough people?  So excited to get my hands on these and do some modding.

[db_Iodine]

That disassembly tool could make the modding a lot easier for sure. I would certainly buy one of those.

[sixty]

Order deadline will be this Friday.

[Findecanor]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to remind people also that they will have to sign up in the order thread. Someone who hasn't re-read the first post, might have missed that. :-)

Btw. Myself, I just got myself a Cherry keyboard with Cherry MX Clears so that I could try them out with light springs to get "a more tactile brown".

[db_Iodine]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to remind people also that they wioll have to sign up in the order thread. Someone who hasn't re-read the first post, might have missed that. :-)

Btw. Myself, I just got myself a Cherry keyboard with Cherry MX Clears so that I could try them out with light springs to get "a more tactile brown".

You linked this same thread. Also I have only posted on this thread but sixty already listed me on the other thread also. So I think you're OK, if you've signed up in this thread before the other thread was made.

Here's the actual order thread for future orders.

[Findecanor]

There... fixed! Thanks!

[PRISONER 24601]

Props to sixty for starting all this up.

I was originally going to put them in one of my black MX 'boards, but now I'm thinking about hunting down something with clears. Hmmm..

Oh, has anyone considered finding/making a tool specifically for disassembling MX switches?
My pickle fork-based removal tool is okay and all, but I'm thinking of something like an IC extractor that would pop off both sides at the same time...
edit: i see the disassembling tool topic has already been addressed. oops!

[hoggy]

+1 for the switch disassembly tool if that helps - no rush.

[db_Iodine]

Order deadline today! I can't wait to get my hands on those springs. I just need to find a used 6gv2 to mod now.

[eugenius]

Hmm .. some (lazy) questions:

1. Can I use these springs in the ErgoPlus without desoldering?
2. What do the springs to for Cherry Browns?
3. Can I use these in a TG3/Deck82 / Filco Tenkeyless with blacks without desoldering?

[sixty]

Hmm .. some (lazy) questions:

1. Can I use these springs in the ErgoPlus without desoldering?
2. What do the springs to for Cherry Browns?
3. Can I use these in a TG3/Deck82 / Filco Tenkeyless with blacks without desoldering?

1) Yeah
2) Probably not much to nothing at all. These are almost the same resistance as the browns itself.
3) Some Decks/TG3 will work as they are PCB mounted, some will not. Filco definitely a no.

[Findecanor]

The G80-5000 ErgoPlus has PCB-mounted switches, that you can open if you have a tool for it.
Deck and Filco have plate-mounted switches, that you can not open without desoldering

[db_Iodine]

Anything that's plate mounted, you're going to have to desolder I think.

[eugenius]

Thanks!

I'm interested if the Deck82 that they sell now on the site works ...

[sixty]

I am awaiting the final quote now and will be sending out invoices to everyone within the next week or so, basically as soon as I receive the final amount to pay from the spring company.

Thanks for participating!

[db_Iodine]

Thank you for making stuff like this happen!

[turbocharged]

How will you be sending invoices?

[sixty]

How will you be sending invoices?

Via Geekhack PM.

UPDATES:

Since the company can't deliver the springs before the 4th week of 2011, I am extending the order deadline until Sunday, 12/26/2010.

The final price will be $15 per 120 springs. My first quote did not include VAT, I got screwed there and so the final price will be the highest original estimate of $15. Anyway, the springs will already come packaged in plastic bags (in quantities of 100).

[db_Iodine]

Too bad they can't deliver before that. But at the same time it's a great chance for more members to get a set of springs here.

[jpc]

IBM, in their infinite wisdom, may have picked heavier springs for a reason.

Hahahahahaha. Good one. Oh, I'm a former IBM-er...

I don't know one way or the other whether a lighter BS spring is possible. Would be neat, certainly.

I know from talking to Chuck at Unicomp that the spring alone is not enough. In a BS board, the springs need to be aligned a certain way on the hammers. If you compare any two hammers, and look at the end of the spring opposite the hammer, you'll see that the springs have exactly the same rotation. (This is not true if you look at the end of the spring adjacent to the hammer.)

I'm not sure what exactly Unicomp is controlling for when they assemble these things. I know that if you try to assemble springs and hammers by hand, you won't get the uniform key feel of a stock Model M.

Chuck also mentioned that Unicomp contracts with another company to align the springs and hammers. That's part of their secret sauce, it's surprising that they contract it out.

[msiegel]

look at the end of the spring opposite the hammer, you'll see that the springs have exactly the same rotation

interesting!

also confirmed for AT model F.

[Oqsy]

I'd be up for some HEAVIER buckling springs

[PRISONER 24601]

I'd be up for some HEAVIER buckling springs

More power to ya! In America we are free to be masochistic or w/e.

[db_Iodine]

I'd be up for some HEAVIER buckling springs

You want to make a geek's finger strength personal trainer keyboard?

[HaaTa]

I'd be up for something heavier than buckling springs too.

And something a lighter than my modified MY switches (20g), but that's just me :biggrin:.

Quick note for Sixty:
Dammit, your website needs RSS

[sixty]

Quick note for Sixty:
Dammit, your website needs RSS

I do have a hacked-up custom RSS script running:

http://feeds.feedburner.com/keyboardporn

[nocturn4l3030]

sign me up for one set