Author Topic: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard  (Read 10597 times)

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Offline OddField

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[IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 01:03:54 »







Back story:
Years ago I was at a fun software company full of incredibly talented geeks. Like most geeks, we overused our hands and nearly everyone had some sort of repetitive strain injury. Kinesis Advantage was the best ergonomic keyboard at the time and quite a few colleagues had one. Unfortunately my hands just don’t fit an Advantage; my pinky is too short. Talking to others, I found out not all hand shapes fit an Advantage. Because of this, and because we realized many ergonomic aspects could be improved, we decided to make a better contoured keyboard that works better for more people.

It started as a passion project with a few friends. The problem however is that we were all perfectionists and we couldn’t stop. Many hundreds of prototypes and A/B testing experiments later, we have finally settled on a design that works really well on a wide variety of hand shapes and hand sizes.

The ergonomics were great, but the keyboard was somewhat ugly (okay rather ugly). After all, it was a very flexible ergonomic test rig first and foremost.

So we faithfully kept the ergonomics, and made it pretty and compact. We re-designed it to be manufacturable. We managed to add a few extra tweaks too. Introducing Glove80.

Glove80 is highly customizable. It is wireless (BLE), but can also connect to a host via USB. There are no wires between the two sides. It runs the excellent open-source and highly configurable ZMK firmware.

If you are interested to know more, please sign up for the Interest Check and Survey at https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147. We would love to hear your feedback and comments.

Key features:
- 80 key split contoured keyboard
- Reinvented ergonomics - result of 500+ prototypes and ergonomic A/B testing experiments
- Compact and low profile - the most compact contoured keyboard (pro-rata for key count)
- Wireless (no more wires) and USB-C support (only if you want)
- Capable of connecting up to 3 Bluetooth LE devices and 1 USB device simultaneously
- Premium components: POM keycaps legended or blank (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114541), Kailh Choc key switches, Nordic nRF52840
- Tenting and flexible mounting options
- Detachable 3D sculpted palm rest - extremely comfortable and detachable for travelling
- Open source ZMK firmware supporting full programmability
- Supports any key layout. All keys have uniform keycaps, so they can be swapped freely
- Supports MacOS, Windows, Linux, Android and iOS devices

Interest check: https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147.
Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/q2s8w2/glove80_the_end_result_of_hundreds_of_ergonomic/?sort=top
Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/cdywSRX9qF

Expected timeline:
Currently working closely with factory. GB/Crowdfund TBD.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 November 2021, 14:10:15 by OddField »

Offline hottrout

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 03:54:25 »
1st and Yes I would like to try this.
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Offline Ravenhar

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 04:19:01 »
A contoured keyboard is something I never considered, but this is v pretty. Definitely interested in seeing how this IC develops

GLWIC <3

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 05:15:02 »
1st and Yes I would like to try this.
Yup you won. Thank you for being our vanguard  :D

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 05:18:49 »
A contoured keyboard is something I never considered, but this is v pretty. Definitely interested in seeing how this IC develops

Thank you for commenting on the aesthetics:) Today I have had loads of great conversation on ergonomics and you are the first to comment on the beauty. You made my day. Thanks.

Offline Ravenhar

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 05:39:13 »
A contoured keyboard is something I never considered, but this is v pretty. Definitely interested in seeing how this IC develops

Thank you for commenting on the aesthetics:) Today I have had loads of great conversation on ergonomics and you are the first to comment on the beauty. You made my day. Thanks.

I'm glad I could brighten your day! This is the first keyboard that's contoured this way that has made me want it on my desk. They haven't particularly interested me before seeing how sleek and lightweight this looks! It'd be completely different from anything I've used before.

Just need to start saving now ;D

Offline econeuler

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 09:50:49 »
Very nice!  :thumb: I look forward to follow this project.
I'm using various split ergos, atm I've been using a cherry Corne and an lp Corne as daily drivers. For me one of the key points in using split ergos is to not have many keys, such that I do not have to move my fingers in awkward positions. E.g., a larger thumb cluster than 3 keys (as the corne) will do nothing for me since I rather use layers and use the comfortable keys, the same goes for more keys than a 3 by 6 layout. How do you view this, and how did you converge to such a large keyboard? Any ergo benefits from your experience? :)

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 16:42:09 »
Very nice!  :thumb: I look forward to follow this project.
I'm using various split ergos, atm I've been using a cherry Corne and an lp Corne as daily drivers. For me one of the key points in using split ergos is to not have many keys, such that I do not have to move my fingers in awkward positions. E.g., a larger thumb cluster than 3 keys (as the corne) will do nothing for me since I rather use layers and use the comfortable keys, the same goes for more keys than a 3 by 6 layout. How do you view this, and how did you converge to such a large keyboard? Any ergo benefits from your experience? :)

There are a number of reasons.

Layers is ultimately a compromise. With layers you are trading the number of keystrokes (I.e. increased muscle stress and lower wpm) for better ergonomics/comfort. On most boards it is simply not possible to get 60 never mind 80 keys to be comfortably reachable, so that kind of compromise makes sense. However we tried very hard to make nearly all 80 keys accessible and I would say on the whole we succeeded. Without moving my palm much if at all, I can access 76. I can't reach the top pinky row without moving my palm but I have a very short pinky. Testers with longer fingers can. Not to boast but I doubt there is another keyboard in the market that has managed this feat - even Kinesis Advantage puts the F keys in an obviously unreachable tiny-key row.
 
So in this context, I would argue not having to layer for common keys is a win. Of course ZMK supports multiple layers and we do use it ourselves for the less common things (such as for numpad, host selection actions and any number of other things).

Secondly although it is cool in keeb circles to go 60/65, one of the primary goals of this keyboard is to make life better for people with RSI or a high risk of RSI. Most of these keyboard warriors just want the easiest transition path. It is already a barrier going to ortholinear. So no reason to add 60/65 to the list.

Thirdly some people go 60/65 because smaller/cute. I hope you would agree that we managed to succeed too in the aesthetics area despite having 80 keys. It is the most compact contoured keyboard key for key.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 October 2021, 16:46:30 by OddField »

Offline kukkurovaca

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 17:41:49 »
I agree that it seems like possibly overkill on the key count, but that's fairly personal, and of course you can always leave excess keys unmapped.

I wonder about some of the keys being right up against each other and potentially being hard to differentiate. Also, choc is obviously very limiting re: keycaps. (But I know that some folks prefer lower-profile switches in ergo boards, I've never used them myself.)

I'm curious about the pricing ballpark also. The IC form references the Moonlander and Kinesis Advantage, hinting at a $350+ price point. I don't want to suggest it isn't worth that, but that also puts it in the ballpark of a handbuilt Dactyl Manuform which would offer more layout choices plus a much wider selection of switches and aftermarket keycaps. There's also the Keyboardio Model 100 in the same segment. (MX hotswap but you're locked into their custom-sculpt keycaps)

For less money you can get someone to make you a custom-built DIY ortho/stagger split board, and the Keebio Iris is getting a hotswap plate version sometime in the next few months I think?

Most/all of what I just listed is not wireless, but wireless is not a huuuge feature for me. Especially since the Glove looks like it would be too bulky to be super portable?

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 20:19:34 »
I wonder about some of the keys being right up against each other and potentially being hard to differentiate.

Quite to the contrary, a curved key well makes it VERY easy to differentiate between keys. The angle of the keycap immediately tells your hand/fingers where they are.

II'm curious about the pricing ballpark also. The IC form references the Moonlander and Kinesis Advantage, hinting at a $350+ price point. I don't want to suggest it isn't worth that, but that also puts it in the ballpark of a handbuilt Dactyl Manuform which would offer more layout choices plus a much wider selection of switches and aftermarket keycaps. There's also the Keyboardio Model 100 in the same segment. (MX hotswap but you're locked into their custom-sculpt keycaps)
It is great that there are choices in the market :) That's very healthy. I do want to point out:
- If ergonomics is what matters to you, I would like to toot the horn on the extreme level of ergonomics testing and design we have gone too. To get a truly good ergonomics design, one needs to iterate and try and again and again. There simply is not shortcut even with the best theories and ideas. As much as I love DM as a project, and the number of variants there are, I don't think any of the variants have gone through a comparable rigorous iterative process.
- Glove80 will be made with an injection molded case, and high quality POM keycaps. I have done more than my fair share of 3D printing, and no matter what printer one use (I use both SLA and FDM and they never stop),  and no matter how careful one is, the quality simply cannot compare with injection molded parts.
- Glove80 has a lot of other features simply not found on many other keyboard. We will talk about them later. Palm Rest. Tenting. Custom mounting. Etc etc.
- If you have tried designing a contoured keyboard or built one, you would appreciate how complex, how much more effort, how much higher than cost is, to design and build a contoured keyboard compared to a flat keyboard. They are not even in the same ballpark in terms of difficulties. But of course it is all worth it in terms of comfort.
As for actual pricing, that is still something we need to work out with the factories. I am in no way making any suggestion of the price right now. However it is important to note that Glove80 is built by a bunch of geeks previously inflicted with RSI, and one of the primary goals is to bring the best ergonomics to everyone who needs it.

Most/all of what I just listed is not wireless, but wireless is not a huuuge feature for me.
There are a few benefits to wireless.
- To me, the biggest gain is a cleaner desk. My desk is already too full of clutter, and if I could get rid of the intra-half cable and the host cable, it is a huge win. Our earlier versions are wired, and we tried sooooo many types of cables, including non-standard custom. But none of them were satisfactory. TRRS for example would easily damage the controller board if you accidentally hot-plug/hot-detach it.
- It is now getting quite common to have multiple devices, such as a work laptop and a personal laptop. BLE functionality of supporting multi-device connections essentially saves you from having a KVM or multiple keyboards. => Less desk clutter
- Great when you are using in office, and you want to bring it to the meeting room, or a colleague's desk. One less thing to carry. One less thing to plug.
But I get that not everyone wants BLE - and that's fine. You can always connect with a USB cable.
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 October 2021, 20:35:54 by OddField »

Offline candy800419

  • Posts: 11
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 20:55:51 »
That's very interesting! I wonder how hard/easy it would be to get used to the shape and layout

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 07 October 2021, 21:21:46 »
That's very interesting! I wonder how hard/easy it would be to get used to the shape and layout
Generally speaking, if you already use an ortholinear, you pretty much would know how to use one right away.

The re-learning is with the ortholinear layout. It takes the same effort to learn a contoured ortholinear and a flat ortholinear, if one has not used an ortholinear before.
 
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 October 2021, 21:27:32 by OddField »

Offline econeuler

  • Posts: 123
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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 09:34:23 »
Very nice!  :thumb: I look forward to follow this project.
I'm using various split ergos, atm I've been using a cherry Corne and an lp Corne as daily drivers. For me one of the key points in using split ergos is to not have many keys, such that I do not have to move my fingers in awkward positions. E.g., a larger thumb cluster than 3 keys (as the corne) will do nothing for me since I rather use layers and use the comfortable keys, the same goes for more keys than a 3 by 6 layout. How do you view this, and how did you converge to such a large keyboard? Any ergo benefits from your experience? :)

There are a number of reasons.

Layers is ultimately a compromise. With layers you are trading the number of keystrokes (I.e. increased muscle stress and lower wpm) for better ergonomics/comfort. On most boards it is simply not possible to get 60 never mind 80 keys to be comfortably reachable, so that kind of compromise makes sense. However we tried very hard to make nearly all 80 keys accessible and I would say on the whole we succeeded. Without moving my palm much if at all, I can access 76. I can't reach the top pinky row without moving my palm but I have a very short pinky. Testers with longer fingers can. Not to boast but I doubt there is another keyboard in the market that has managed this feat - even Kinesis Advantage puts the F keys in an obviously unreachable tiny-key row.
 
So in this context, I would argue not having to layer for common keys is a win. Of course ZMK supports multiple layers and we do use it ourselves for the less common things (such as for numpad, host selection actions and any number of other things).

Secondly although it is cool in keeb circles to go 60/65, one of the primary goals of this keyboard is to make life better for people with RSI or a high risk of RSI. Most of these keyboard warriors just want the easiest transition path. It is already a barrier going to ortholinear. So no reason to add 60/65 to the list.

Thirdly some people go 60/65 because smaller/cute. I hope you would agree that we managed to succeed too in the aesthetics area despite having 80 keys. It is the most compact contoured keyboard key for key.

I see, quite interesting, thanks for the explanation! I agree that there most probably is a market for ergo boards that are well designed, aesthetic, and not totally weird like sub 40s :)

Offline Exluna

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 10:06:16 »
Honestly I would want to try this for the pure looks alone. If anything, it's definitely a conversation starter!

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 08 October 2021, 15:39:25 »
Thank you. I don't think you would be disappointed with the ergonomics either.  :D

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 171
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 01:37:52 »
Is this a build-it-yourself kit or a fully preassembled board? I get the idea it’s preassembled.

And are the switches handwired, or have you found a way to make a PCB in the shape of those wells? I have heard of single-switch PCBs that can in turn be wired together.

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 03:18:58 »
Is this a build-it-yourself kit or a fully preassembled board? I get the idea it’s preassembled.

And are the switches handwired, or have you found a way to make a PCB in the shape of those wells? I have heard of single-switch PCBs that can in turn be wired together.
We will have both in kit form so you can choose your own switches and solder, and prebuilt for those who prefer not to.

The pcbs are thin FR4 bent to fit. They are easy to solder as a contoured keyboard goes.
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 October 2021, 03:28:50 by OddField »

Offline FlitzDeelman

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 04:42:13 »
Is this a build-it-yourself kit or a fully preassembled board? I get the idea it’s preassembled.

And are the switches handwired, or have you found a way to make a PCB in the shape of those wells? I have heard of single-switch PCBs that can in turn be wired together.
We will have both in kit form so you can choose your own switches and solder, and prebuilt for those who prefer not to.

The pcbs are thin FR4 bent to fit. They are easy to solder as a contoured keyboard goes.
Awesome, thanks. This looks really interesting, I will be tracking!

Will it just be a GB, or do you have plans for regular drops or in-stock sales, a la Keyboardio / Moonlander / Ultimate Hacking Keyboard?

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 05:52:19 »
Thank you for your kind words. We will start with a GB/Crowdfund but if there is enough support the intention would be to stock them a la keyboardio.

If you had not yet filled in the interest check form https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147, it would really help us to do so. Thanks
« Last Edit: Sat, 09 October 2021, 05:54:48 by OddField »

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 171
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 06:42:16 »
Thank you for your kind words. We will start with a GB/Crowdfund but if there is enough support the intention would be to stock them a la keyboardio.

If you had not yet filled in the interest check form https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147, it would really help us to do so. Thanks
Did that now. If I have the budget, I’ll try to get in on the GB. If not, I’ll definitely try to buy it when it reaches the retail stage.

Offline Parva Ovis

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 10:24:38 »
Do you have any example ZMK layouts/key assignments?

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 09 October 2021, 14:52:04 »
Do you have any example ZMK layouts/key assignments?
One of the key features of Glove80 is having the same uniform keymap profile for every key. What this means is that you can switch legended keycaps to exactly match the modified keymap.

The current default keymap for Glove80 is at
https://github.com/moergo-sc/zmk/blob/glove80/app/boards/arm/glove80/glove80.keymap. Please ignore the Lower layer as we still working on it. We expect to fine tune the default key map before production. In any case you can change it to whatever you like.

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 10 October 2021, 01:19:29 »
Why is the thumb cluster shaped this way?
Of all the thumb joint motions, I think you will find the flexion-extension motion (sweeping along roughly the palm plane) of the CMC joint the most comfortable and with the greatest reach. The carpometacarpal (CMC) joint of the thumb is the joint located at the very base of the thumb. With a well designed contoured key well, the palm hardly ever has to move, so effectively the CMC thumb joint stay at one place. Glove80 is designed to take advantage of that, so that you can reach every thumb key simply by drawing an arc with the CMC joint as the centre, without stretching your thumb or moving your palm much if at all.
« Last Edit: Tue, 12 October 2021, 19:53:45 by OddField »

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 10 October 2021, 15:51:54 »
For clarification, it will be using the POM MCC profile keycaps. Both legended and blank would be available.
« Last Edit: Sun, 10 October 2021, 15:56:52 by OddField »

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Sat, 16 October 2021, 04:04:03 »
Good news! The plastic injection molding factory has finished the first cut of the injection mold for the keycap we will use for Glove80.
It is looking good; but we will continue to refine the mold.

Here are some yummy white chocolates.

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 22 October 2021, 19:30:44 »
One of our testers made a Glove80 typing test video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/qddfqg/glove80_wireless_contoured_keyboard_typing_test/


This video shows how typing on Glove80 can be like:
  • Very small finger motions, which is expected for a well-designed contoured key well. The palm doesn’t need to move to press the finger keys.
  • There are no/little palm motions required for the thumbs to easily reach all 6 thumb keys in each thumb cluster. The thumb motions are primarily the flexion-extension motion (sweeping along roughly the palm plane) of the CMC joint.
  • With Glove80, because no/little palm movements are needed to comfortably reach both thumb and finger keys, Kevin in the video also likes to rest the soles of his palms on the palm rests while typing. The arms too can rest as there is no longer a need to hold the arms tense.


Hope you like it!
« Last Edit: Fri, 22 October 2021, 19:37:07 by OddField »

Offline jb1830

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 23 October 2021, 09:39:06 »
Color me interested, this looks awesome.

Edit: Wanted to add that if this came with an integrated wrist rest or if the additional rests locked onto the case it would be that much better. I have a bad habit of sliding wrist rests around.
« Last Edit: Sat, 23 October 2021, 09:56:28 by jb1830 »
               
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Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 23 October 2021, 18:26:17 »
Color me interested, this looks awesome.

Edit: Wanted to add that if this came with an integrated wrist rest or if the additional rests locked onto the case it would be that much better. I have a bad habit of sliding wrist rests around.

Yes it comes with 3D-sculpted palm rests that actually works perfectly with the built-in tenting system :D Have a look at the typing video above, and you can see (an older version) of the palm rest. The new one is ergonomically identical but better looking.
On top of that, the palm rest is also detachable for travelling.

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 24 October 2021, 15:41:11 »
Added new photos with palm rest. Please scroll to original post. Thanks!

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 30 October 2021, 17:58:42 »
We got our hands on the first POM keycap samples from the injection molder. They are looking great. The feel is really excellent. It is nicely smooth, and yet subtly textured. The POM keycaps are beautiful to type on.

We will be doing some adjustments still as this is just the first sample.

Hope you like them. Looking forward to your comments.

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 30 October 2021, 17:59:51 »
Backlit by LED

Offline hottrout

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 31 October 2021, 08:07:52 »
The samples and the backlighting looks to be a good addition.  I am not a fan of RGB but maybe some subtle backlighting for gaming purposes would be helpful.  Love how unique this all is.  Watching with interest.
Current Daily Driver : Virgo - Ultramarine - Standard Lube  |  WTB : GMK Red Samurai ISO Kit, GMK Copper Kits, GMK Phantom Kits.

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Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 31 October 2021, 18:49:34 »
The samples and the backlighting looks to be a good addition.  I am not a fan of RGB but maybe some subtle backlighting for gaming purposes would be helpful.  Love how unique this all is.  Watching with interest.

Thanks! The 18 LEDs are there as indicators. We will be using them for indicating which layer is active, batteries level, and any other thing that need indicating. We decided to hide the indicators underneath the keys to create the minimalistic clean look. Many contoured ergo keyboards are functional but not something necessarily adding beauty to a desk or a room (though beauty is in the eye of the beholder :D). We would like to change that perception for contoured keyboards.

Of course if you want to do light pattern with them, do go ahead. ZMK will pretty much let you do anything if you want it to.
« Last Edit: Sun, 31 October 2021, 18:57:14 by OddField »

Offline hottrout

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 03 November 2021, 06:14:18 »
The samples and the backlighting looks to be a good addition.  I am not a fan of RGB but maybe some subtle backlighting for gaming purposes would be helpful.  Love how unique this all is.  Watching with interest.

Thanks! The 18 LEDs are there as indicators. We will be using them for indicating which layer is active, batteries level, and any other thing that need indicating. We decided to hide the indicators underneath the keys to create the minimalistic clean look. Many contoured ergo keyboards are functional but not something necessarily adding beauty to a desk or a room (though beauty is in the eye of the beholder :D). We would like to change that perception for contoured keyboards.

Of course if you want to do light pattern with them, do go ahead. ZMK will pretty much let you do anything if you want it to.

The idea of them working as indicators is a great one, for that purpose the lights would work.  Nice work, starting to really take shape.
Current Daily Driver : Virgo - Ultramarine - Standard Lube  |  WTB : GMK Red Samurai ISO Kit, GMK Copper Kits, GMK Phantom Kits.

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IBM 3101 | IBM 3276 | IBM 5150 | IBM ModelM | Dictaphone Dual Display | Vintage Cherrys (1982 onwards, just about all of them) | Commodore (all of them) | Nixdorf | Siemens | ICL | Apple (all of them) | Filco Majistouch | KBDFans 5degree - Chocolate | Rama M6-B - Moon | CA66 Silver | ClueBoard Graphite/PC | Varmilo VA69M Silver | E7-V1 SE Yellow | Rama U-80 Space Grey | VN66 Navy | BOCC Frosted Polycarbonate | Rama M10-C Midnight | FLX Virgo Teal & Black | Rama M60-A LYN Kuro | Space65 CyberVoyager WhiteGold | Space65 CyberVoyager Terminal | Hyper 7 | Clarabelle Sandblasted Polycarbonate | Elongate Mini 1800 Blue | Petrichor 1800 Red | Vulcan Maja Ergo Green | Think6.5v2 RoboCop | Jacky Bear 65% E-White | Sakabato CB87 TKL Champagne | KCK KY-01 Aquamarine | Jae J-01 F&F E-White & Copper | S7.7 E-White | The Adélie Blue | NIX OxalyS80 LE Dark Polycarbonate | Mesa TKL E-White | Smith & Rune IRON180 Graen/Brass | Skog Reboot Desert | CU7 Black | ROTR Silver & Copper | RAMA Kara Soya | Grid 650 E-White | SIX5 LE Aluminium & Gold | OwLab Voice65 Grey | BOX 75 Black Stainless Steel | Onyx E-White | Ikki68 BT Charcoal | Smith & Rune Iron 165 Graphite & Stainless Steel | Epoch 80% Black | RAMA Thermal SEQ2 Kuro | Paper Crane Gerald65 SE PC & CF | CB1800 ZANBATO | GLiTCH | Eclipse Grey & SS | TGR Tomo Silver | Mountain Ergo Black | Keebwerk NASU Black/Red | Phase One 65 Grey | Command TKL Fire | Chalice Frosted | VIENDI 8L Shadow | | Vulcan Maja PC |

Offline Totoro

  • Posts: 19
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 04 November 2021, 03:43:16 »
Show Image

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Back story:
Years ago I was at a fun software company full of incredibly talented geeks. Like most geeks, we overused our hands and nearly everyone had some sort of repetitive strain injury. Kinesis Advantage was the best ergonomic keyboard at the time and quite a few colleagues had one. Unfortunately my hands just don’t fit an Advantage; my pinky is too short. Talking to others, I found out not all hand shapes fit an Advantage. Because of this, and because we realized many ergonomic aspects could be improved, we decided to make a better contoured keyboard that works better for more people.

It started as a passion project with a few friends. The problem however is that we were all perfectionists and we couldn’t stop. Many hundreds of prototypes and A/B testing experiments later, we have finally settled on a design that works really well on a wide variety of hand shapes and hand sizes.

The ergonomics were great, but the keyboard was somewhat ugly (okay rather ugly). After all, it was a very flexible ergonomic test rig first and foremost.

So we faithfully kept the ergonomics, and made it pretty and compact. We re-designed it to be manufacturable. We managed to add a few extra tweaks too. Introducing Glove80.

Glove80 is highly customizable. It is wireless (BLE), but can also connect to a host via USB. There are no wires between the two sides. It runs the excellent open-source and highly configurable ZMK firmware.

If you are interested to know more, please sign up for the Interest Check and Survey at https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147. We would love to hear your feedback and comments.

Key features:
- 80 key split contoured keyboard
- Reinvented ergonomics - result of 500+ prototypes and ergonomic A/B testing experiments
- Compact and low profile - the most compact contoured keyboard (pro-rata for key count)
- Wireless (no more wires) and USB-C support (only if you want)
- Capable of connecting up to 3 Bluetooth LE devices and 1 USB device simultaneously
- Premium components: POM keycaps legended or blank (see https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114541), Kailh Choc key switches, Nordic nRF52840
- Tenting and flexible mounting options
- Detachable 3D sculpted palm rest - extremely comfortable and detachable for travelling
- Open source ZMK firmware supporting full programmability
- Supports any key layout. All keys have uniform keycaps, so they can be swapped freely
- Supports MacOS, Windows, Linux, Android and iOS devices

Interest check: https://forms.gle/xjHFfoAt7AxC8K147.
Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/q2s8w2/glove80_the_end_result_of_hundreds_of_ergonomic/?sort=top
Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/cdywSRX9qF

Expected timeline:
Currently working closely with factory. GB/Crowdfund TBD.

very nice

Offline OddField

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  • Posts: 56
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Thu, 04 November 2021, 14:56:46 »
The idea of them working as indicators is a great one, for that purpose the lights would work.  Nice work, starting to really take shape.

We might be doing a special "gamer" edition for crowdfund with 80 LEDs if there is enough interest. Generally speaking ergonomic enthusiasts are not into LED. Honestly neither are we. But Glove80  with LED backlighting the POM keycaps are just too pretty for us to resist hahaha.

Offline OddField

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 56
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 07 November 2021, 16:51:37 »
I have added a lot of information to www.moergo.com. Love to hear what resonates with you in the draft website, and what doesn't Thanks!
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 November 2021, 16:53:49 by OddField »

Offline OddField

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  • Posts: 56
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 09 November 2021, 14:14:18 »
The POM keycap samples arrived. They are even better than I have a right to expect. These are T0 samples, which means they are only the first cut of the mold. However they look gorgeous and feels even better.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 November 2021, 02:21:43 by OddField »

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 10 November 2021, 06:32:25 »

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #39 on: Sat, 13 November 2021, 17:17:01 »
A Glove80 spotted in its natural habitat.

Offline OddField

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  • Posts: 56
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 18:35:59 »
Some people asked for a different case color. We are trying out this slate-grey. What do you think?

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 171
Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 19 November 2021, 23:18:46 »
I can’t remember whether this has been mentioned before. Sorry for asking again if it has.

Will the case and wrist rest be 3d-printed, or injection-moulded plastic? Or CNC-ed alu?

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 21 November 2021, 02:24:24 »
The keycaps are injection-molded POM. The mold is being made, and we already have the POM keycap samples (which are shown in latest shots).

The case and palm rest will be high quality injection-molded ABS/PC or PC. 

As Glove80 is wireless (no wires between halves, and BLE or USB to host), an aluminium case is tricky without affecting the wireless performance.
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 November 2021, 02:26:28 by OddField »

Offline FlitzDeelman

  • Posts: 171
[IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 21 November 2021, 04:02:10 »
The keycaps are injection-molded POM. The mold is being made, and we already have the POM keycap samples (which are shown in latest shots).

The case and palm rest will be high quality injection-molded ABS/PC or PC. 

As Glove80 is wireless (no wires between halves, and BLE or USB to host), an aluminium case is tricky without affecting the wireless performance.
Great, thanks.

Will there be some encryption on the wireless? I know Bluetooth has some encryption, but (maybe previous versions) are vulnerable to some attacks.

I like wireless mice, since the wire can get tangled and cause clutter. Also, the information pilfered from a mouse can’t be used to do much damage, I think, since the context of what you’re moving between and what you’re clicking is on your screen, transported by a wired connection.

Wireless keyboards have less of a compelling use case, but it still helps with clutter and easier travel. However, the information going out over a keeb connection can be used to hurt you without any extra context required.
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 November 2021, 04:07:05 by FlitzDeelman »

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 21 November 2021, 04:08:36 »
I am not an encryption expert so I really am not in a position to answer the question in depth. But,

1. Glove80 uses Nordic nRF52840 which support BLE 5.2 which as I understand is one of the latest versions of BLE, which in term is very broadly used in a huge range of computer peripherals.
2. Glove80 uses ZMK firmware, which relies on the BLE functionality of Zephyr OS (which is supported by all the big boys like Google and Facebook). ZMK and Zephyr are opensource, which means all the source code can be publicly reviewed.

 

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 22 November 2021, 00:19:20 »
1. can you show me how you did the fr4 pcb bending?
2. did you do 3d printing for the prototypes, how did you reach such large numbers, hundreds of units?
May display immature behavior
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Has stopped talking in third person

treeleaf KB concoctions: https://discord.gg/wEueaf8BaV

Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 22 November 2021, 00:34:59 »
1. can you show me how you did the fr4 pcb bending?
2. did you do 3d printing for the prototypes, how did you reach such large numbers, hundreds of units?

Please have a look at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114887.0 and also Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) and how the "ultimate"​ ergonomic keyboard is created through 500+ A/B testing experiments
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rsi-how-ultimate-ergonomic-keyboard-created-stephen-cheng

The fr4 is a thin FR4 and this is a well known technique.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 22 November 2021, 00:46:57 »
1. can you show me how you did the fr4 pcb bending?
2. did you do 3d printing for the prototypes, how did you reach such large numbers, hundreds of units?

Please have a look at https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=114887.0 and also Repetitive Strain Injury (RSI) and how the "ultimate"​ ergonomic keyboard is created through 500+ A/B testing experiments
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rsi-how-ultimate-ergonomic-keyboard-created-stephen-cheng

The fr4 is a thin FR4 and this is a well known technique.


thank you  for your time
May display immature behavior
Does not understand simple things (Treeleaf moment)

Has stopped talking in third person

treeleaf KB concoctions: https://discord.gg/wEueaf8BaV

Offline OddField

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Offline OddField

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Re: [IC] Glove80 Split Contoured Wireless Keyboard
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 27 November 2021, 03:45:53 »
Sharing an interesting photo today.

The key to Glove80's comfort and ergonomics is our belief in A/B testing. To achieve 500+ A/B testing experiments, we need to have an efficient way to produce the prototypes. Our solution is to create highly modular test rigs that we can change the ergonomic setup without re-printing the whole prototype, which cuts down the 3D-printing time from 6 days to as short as 15 minutes.

The keyboard in the photo looks and functions like a normal keyboard. This is one of the keyboards we do long term testing on. However opened up, it shows its true purpose: a modular ergonomic test rig. This particular test rig has 18 replaceable components, which allows us to test most aspects of the key well and thumb cluster.