Author Topic: [IC] full PBT (spacebar included), gray or beige set (Read 145584 times)

wuqe · « **Reply #350 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 19:27:55 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Sun, 09 March 2014, 18:21:03

Please ergodoxians chime in. Is this what you want?

Show Image

please note that we can always change the legends BUT we cannot add or remove keys. So if in doubt better add a couple of keys.

Also would you like some keys in different color?

Ergodoxian here.

Shifts: yes!

Would like an additional 1x2 key so we can add another option (I'd like shift, sounds like Fn may be a candidate too).

I think additional colors would break the "swap anywhere" appeal of this set.

No other strong opinions to report.

Loligagger · « **Reply #351 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 19:47:04 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Sun, 09 March 2014, 18:21:03

Please ergodoxians chime in. Is this what you want?

Show Image

please note that we can always change the legends BUT we cannot add or remove keys. So if in doubt better add a couple of keys.

Also would you like some keys in different color?

I'd rather have a 2x fn key than a del key, but that's just my layout. Perhaps adding one or two 2x keys wouldn't drive price up too much? I'd also leave space blank. As for colors a blue enter would be nice.

Melvang · « **Reply #352 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:51:18 »

I hate to say it guys but with the damage from the toxic set I will have to duck out of this one. My price for toxic was north of $250 and that's before I find out if I got Bro Bots on that one.

ideus · « **Reply #353 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:57:31 »

Quote from: Melvang on Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:51:18

I hate to say it guys but with the damage from the toxic set I will have to duck out of this one. My price for toxic was north of $250 and that's before I find out if I got Bro Bots on that one.

It will be your loss. This set rocks.

Melvang · « **Reply #354 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:59:02 »

I know it does but I am designing my M-64 project around that GB including the 10x space bar.

Elrick · « **Reply #355 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:01:45 »

Quote from: Melvang on Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:51:18

My price for toxic was north of $250 and that's before I find out if I got Bro Bots on that one.

Geez mine was $473.00 but I'm still in with these because DSA PBT's isn't your average key-set. Plus who knows if there will be another one run within this year.

Besides Matt3o designed key-sets are always worth the investment because the man knows his style

.

ideus · « **Reply #356 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:16:19 »

This set should be a first PBT DSA with sublimated legends. Does somebody know about a similar one?

Air tree · « **Reply #357 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:54:00 »

Oh my god. This set is getting more and more amazing. Nerdom is looking great, I'll probably pick up a ergodoxian set just in case even though I don't have one yet but this set will probably turn out to be my favorite ever.

justnits · « **Reply #358 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:54:29 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Sun, 09 March 2014, 18:21:03

Please ergodoxians chime in. Is this what you want?

Show Image

please note that we can always change the legends BUT we cannot add or remove keys. So if in doubt better add a couple of keys.

Also would you like some keys in different color?

i'm with lolligagger that the Space key should be blank.
but my concern is more on the duplicate Enter and Delete key, both on 2x and 1.5x.
do we need duplicate legends?

squarefrog, how is the ergodox data compiling coming to?

ideus · « **Reply #359 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 23:07:45 »

Quote from: Melvang on Sun, 09 March 2014, 21:59:02

I know it does but I am designing my M-64 project around that GB including the 10x space bar.

I see. Anyway, to have a nice exclusive set in stock will not hurt your GHer style.

tbc · « **Reply #360 on:** Sun, 09 March 2014, 23:42:28 »

shift for 2x1 thumb key please

Matt3o · « **Reply #361 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 03:12:20 »

Quote from: ideus on Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:16:19

This set should be a first PBT DSA with sublimated legends. Does somebody know about a similar one?

A FULL PBT (spacebar included!!!) DSA set with sublimated legends --to my knowledge-- does not exist!

Air tree · « **Reply #362 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 03:25:10 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 03:12:20

Quote from: ideus on Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:16:19
This set should be a first PBT DSA with sublimated legends. Does somebody know about a similar one?

A FULL PBT (spacebar included!!!) DSA set with sublimated legends --to my knowledge-- does not exist!

squarefrog · « **Reply #363 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 03:38:31 »

Quote from: justnits on Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:54:29

squarefrog, how is the ergodox data compiling coming to?

Pretty good so far. I'm not ready to make the site public just yet, but here are some screen shots showing the top keys:

justnits · « **Reply #364 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Sun, 09 March 2014, 18:21:03

Please ergodoxians chime in. Is this what you want?

Show Image

please note that we can always change the legends BUT we cannot add or remove keys. So if in doubt better add a couple of keys.

Also would you like some keys in different color?

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 03:38:31

Quote from: justnits on Sun, 09 March 2014, 22:54:29
squarefrog, how is the ergodox data compiling coming to?

Pretty good so far. I'm not ready to make the site public just yet, but here are some screen shots showing the top keys:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

squarefrog · « **Reply #365 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39 »

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30

from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

Thats a fair point - I dont see the Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

justnits · « **Reply #366 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:19:03 »

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30
from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

Thats a fair point - I dont see the Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

hmm? i suppose it's not on this thread? in DT?

Matt3o · « **Reply #367 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:24:29 »

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:19:03

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39
Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30
from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

Thats a fair point - I dont see the Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

hmm? i suppose it's not on this thread? in DT?

?!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55314.msg1253948#msg1253948

justnits · « **Reply #368 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:33:46 »

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30
from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

Thats a fair point - I dont see the Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:24:29

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:19:03
Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39
Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:14:30
from your data, i somehow think we don't need horizontal 1.5x Enter and Delete.
that could change to maybe vertical FN or Layer or something else?

Thats a fair point - I dont see the Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

hmm? i suppose it's not on this thread? in DT?

?!

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55314.msg1253948#msg1253948

matt, i'm talking about what squarefrog posted, that he didn't see the horizontal Enter and Delete anymore while i see that it's still there.

squarefrog · « **Reply #369 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:47:40 »

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 04:30:39

Thats a fair point - I dont see the NEED for Enter/Del horizontals any more. We do however already have a vertical FN.

Sorry. Words missing.. I hadn't had a coffee yet.

jdeblese · « **Reply #370 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:50:50 »

I still see ENTER and DELETE horizontals in there as well. Every key above them apart from /? is already available as 1.5x, either horizontal or vertical. You could rotate them, I guess, but I don't see what you'd remove them for.

Yes, ENTER and a few others are in there twice, but 1.5x and 2x keys are very different, and these are essential keys. I don't want to leave someone without a backspace, for instance, and that's a key common in both 1.5x and 2x size. I'd like a 2x shift as well, but then we either have to add keys which ups the price, or replace ENTER and make people buy the numpad.

squarefrog · « **Reply #371 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 06:56:34 »

Quote from: wuqe on Sun, 09 March 2014, 19:27:55

Would like an additional 1x2 key so we can add another option (I'd like shift, sounds like Fn may be a candidate too).

I think additional colors would break the "swap anywhere" appeal of this set.

That is a good point about the colours I suppose.

Quote from: Loligagger on Sun, 09 March 2014, 19:47:04

I'd rather have a 2x fn key than a del key, but that's just my layout. Perhaps adding one or two 2x keys wouldn't drive price up too much? I'd also leave space blank. As for colors a blue enter would be nice.

Me too - I don't have a use for del in my layout, but its a very common 2x key. Layer does come 5th most popular in 2x layouts:

Spacebar	47	107%
Return/Enter	34	77%
Backspace	29	66%
Forward Delete	13	30%
Layer Toggle 1	11	25%

But then slightly further down theres layer toggle 2 with a count of 4, so maybe that pushes it up..

jdeblese · « **Reply #372 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:06:57 »

Should we just ask Matt3o if he can still add a few keys, then? I'd wanted to keep it at the right size for those ordering blanks, but I fear this debate's gonna go on endlessly otherwise.

EDIT: SP is on US time, I guess, so I assume he hasn't submitted the quote yet.

Matt3o · « **Reply #373 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:13:57 »

there's still time.

The blank version of the ergodox set could include less keys of course.

jdeblese · « **Reply #374 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:23:25 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:13:57

there's still time.

The blank version of the ergodox set could include less keys of course.

Ok, how about an extra 50% then: six 2x keys and eighteen 1.5x keys in total, and we'll debate later exactly what goes on them. That should be enough to cover down to 10% layout usage, I think, without getting into too-many-extras territory.

Matt3o · « **Reply #375 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:27:06 »

2u keys are expensive, anyway, I would try to ask a quote with as many keys as you want. We can later reduce them.

Today ends the Skull Squadron GB and I have to tune up with SP regarding few details about it. I don't want to mix too many things, so I might wait tomorrow for the quote.

Elrick · « **Reply #376 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:39:09 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:27:06

2u keys are expensive, anyway, I would try to ask a quote with as many keys as you want. We can later reduce them.

I figure if the price tag starts rising you know where the cuts will be aimed at? No one wants to pay for something they aren't using, that is how I understand the way Geekhack operates these days.

Latin00032 · « **Reply #377 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:42:37 »

I like colors 2 and 3. I think one it's too white.

squarefrog · « **Reply #378 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:46:40 »

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:23:25

Ok, how about an extra 50% then: six 2x keys and eighteen 1.5x keys in total, and we'll debate later exactly what goes on them. That should be enough to cover down to 10% layout usage, I think, without getting into too-many-extras territory.

Personally I'd not go down to 10%. We could essentially end up adding keys which 90% of the people will never use. I'd be more inclined to push the blank sets more.

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:13:57

The blank version of the ergodox set could include less keys of course.

This is a good idea. The blank set can really cover the bare minimum for someone wanting blank modifiers.

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:27:06

Today ends the Skull Squadron GB and I have to tune up with SP regarding few details about it. I don't want to mix too many things, so I might wait tomorrow for the quote.

Congrats on the successful GB. Smashed the target in the last week or so!

Quote from: Elrick on Mon, 10 March 2014, 07:39:09

I figure if the price tag starts rising you know where the cuts will be aimed at? No one wants to pay for something they aren't using, that is how I understand the way Geekhack operates these days.

Yes the cuts will be aimed at any key that's not on my layout

In all serious though, a higher price tag could put people off for sure.

justnits · « **Reply #379 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:09:55 »

i like the idea of half blank ergodox...that promotes flexibility and not punch the price too high up.

jdeblese · « **Reply #380 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:17:48 »

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:09:55

i like the idea of half blank ergodox...that promotes flexibility and not punch the price too high up.

Half blank, what do you mean by that?

I had the impression it was the key and not the dyesubbing that was the primary cost...

justnits · « **Reply #381 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:32:30 »

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:17:48

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:09:55
i like the idea of half blank ergodox...that promotes flexibility and not punch the price too high up.

Half blank, what do you mean by that?

I had the impression it was the key and not the dyesubbing that was the primary cost...

hmm...half blanks as in half the number of full ergodox kit keys in blanks.
instead of 4 2x and 12 1.5x blanks, there's 2 2x and 6 1.5x blanks.

jdeblese · « **Reply #382 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:55:10 »

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:32:30

hmm...half blanks as in half the number of full ergodox kit keys in blanks.
instead of 4 2x and 12 1.5x blanks, there's 2 2x and 6 1.5x blanks.

In addition to a full set of dyesubs? I'd only do that if it turns out that the dyesubbing step is the major cost. If it's the keys, I think we're better off labeling then while we have the chance.

Matt3o · « **Reply #383 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:02:10 »

What do you think of the following. The limit would be approx 23%

justnits · « **Reply #384 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:06:17 »

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:55:10

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 08:32:30
hmm...half blanks as in half the number of full ergodox kit keys in blanks.
instead of 4 2x and 12 1.5x blanks, there's 2 2x and 6 1.5x blanks.

In addition to a full set of dyesubs? I'd only do that if it turns out that the dyesubbing step is the major cost. If it's the keys, I think we're better off labeling then while we have the chance.

not addition, i believe matt3o did mention that there is blank sets for every kit.
not sure if it's still valid at this juncture or not

jdeblese · « **Reply #385 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:15:49 »

Quote from: justnits on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:06:17

not addition, i believe matt3o did mention that there is blank sets for every kit.
not sure if it's still valid at this juncture or not

My bad, I get it now. You mean that instead of offering a full 16-key blank set, he should offer only a half 8-key blank set, essentially one hand. Whoever needs the full set can order two, and this is completely separate fro the legended set.

Not a bad idea...

Matt3o · « **Reply #386 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:20:27 »

yes the idea would be to offer a legended full set and an half ergodox blank, so you could for example get the legended + 1 blank... or 2 blanks

squarefrog · « **Reply #387 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:30:27 »

Quote from: Matt3o on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:02:10

What do you think of the following. The limit would be approx 23%

Show Image

Looks good to me, the only ones I saw missing were:

Horizontal:
Backslash Pipe (50%)
Left Control (32%)

Both of which are covered by other sets.

Quick! Lock the file before we change our mind :-*

justnits · « **Reply #388 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:42:11 »

haha!
yeah, i think this looks good considering there's half blanks to play with the different part of our minds we have for layouts

jdeblese · « **Reply #389 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:46:09 »

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:30:27

Both of which are covered by other sets.

Quick! Lock the file before we change our mind

Seconded. It will never be perfect, but I think this is pretty good.

ideus · « **Reply #390 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:51:17 »

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:46:09

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:30:27
Both of which are covered by other sets.

Quick! Lock the file before we change our mind

Seconded. It will never be perfect, but I think this is pretty good.

Perfect from whom perspective, after all ergodox is all about customization, isn't it? So, there is no a single combination of shapes, sizes, and legends that will fit anybody doxes.

squarefrog · « **Reply #391 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 10:15:55 »

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:46:09

Seconded. It will never be perfect, but I think this is pretty good.

Shh! Well it would be perfect if it included this hipster legend key that only appears on my typewriter from the 1800s in 1.3x size....

Quote from: ideus on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:51:17

Perfect from whom perspective, after all ergodox is all about customization, isn't it? So, there is no a single combination of shapes, sizes, and legends that will fit anybody doxes.

Yes but the proposed set covers the most common 70% of layouts. The alternative is that everyone gets blank and we all die a little inside..

ideus · « **Reply #392 on:** Mon, 10 March 2014, 10:19:50 »

Quote from: squarefrog on Mon, 10 March 2014, 10:15:55

Quote from: jdeblese on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:46:09
Seconded. It will never be perfect, but I think this is pretty good.

Shh! Well it would be perfect if it included this hipster legend key that only appears on my typewriter from the 1800s in 1.3x size....

Quote from: ideus on Mon, 10 March 2014, 09:51:17
Perfect from whom perspective, after all ergodox is all about customization, isn't it? So, there is no a single combination of shapes, sizes, and legends that will fit anybody doxes.
Yes but the proposed set covers the most common 70% of layouts. The alternative is that everyone gets blank and we all die a little inside..

There you are. No we are talking...