[IC] Tai Hao Alps Keysets (Color and Layout Poll is up)

[nuclearsandwich]

After talking with GhostofHarry we agreed that he has an awful lot on his plate as he gears up for both the Cherry MX Tai Hao buy and the Red Scarf II Kit buy. So I've taken on the role of organizing the Alps side of things. All correspondence with Tai Hao will still be handled by GhostofHarry (by necessity of language) but I'll be CC'd on communication so I can at least follow along via Google Translate.

Since there are no Alps caps in stock, our MOQ is 500 but that also means we have the freedom to pick which colorscheme we go for.

Since keyboards with Alps switches have a lot more quirks than Cherry boards there are probably a lot of questions that we don't have the answer to yet. Let's ask them here and I'll send them to Tai Hao in batches via GhostofHarry.

Questions and Answers
==============

Materials and Techniques: Doubleshot ABS
Profile: OEM (Like you'd get on a Ducky, Filco, QFR, WASD, you get the idea)
Price per set: Probably $14 but double checking
Big Alps enter option:

Colorscheme Options
=============

I'm making the assumption that we'll want one of the 4th gen colorschemes listed below but if we wanted something like Purple from Gen 3 it'd look great as well. Realistically we have to all agree. MOQ 500 is pretty outrageous and we're all going to be swimming in caps to make this thing work.


Poll
==

Be polled for your opinions.

[intelli78]

I like the Granite option. Olivetti is a bit boring, and we'll all have enough Dolch soon with Ivan's upcoming group buy.

What's the pricing like on these? Pretty cheap, right? I should be in for 2 sets to help us get to the MOQ twice as fast.

[CommonCurt]

I would love to see this happen, but 500 moq 

I'm in for a Olivetti, Black on White, and the newer blue color (I forget the name of it)

[nuclearsandwich]

I like the Granite option. Olivetti is a bit boring, and we'll all have enough Dolch soon with Ivan's upcoming group buy.

What's the pricing like on these? Pretty cheap, right? I should be in for 2 sets to help us get to the MOQ twice as fast.

The price for an MX ANSI set is $14, I'm not sure if we'll get the same set price for Alps. I'm also curious if Tai Hao has a big alps enter so this set could be used on vintage boards as well.

[pasph]

Granite or Dolch, we need a sample of the various stabilized keycaps for accurate measurements

[Pacifist]

I'd like to get oliveti, but I realize that dolch will hit moq so much easier

[Techno Trousers]

Thanks for taking this on, nuclearsandwich. I suggest you put up a poll for everyone to vote. I suspect that if the price all-in is under $20, Alps enthusiasts would want to buy one of each. I know I would buy any of them, so if you narrow it down to the overall most popular of the three and run that GB first, then you can take a shot at running the second most popular, if you're not totally exhausted by then.

[mashby]

I vote for Klaxon just to be different.

[nuclearsandwich]

Thanks for taking this on, nuclearsandwich. I suggest you put up a poll for everyone to vote. I suspect that if the price all-in is under $20, Alps enthusiasts would want to buy one of each. I know I would buy any of them, so if you narrow it down to the overall most popular of the three and run that GB first, then you can take a shot at running the second most popular, if you're not totally exhausted by then.

I plan on putting up a poll. I just wanted to get a sounding first so I can add the right options to the poll.

[SSIPAK]

I am willing to grab Dolch and Olivetti

[mashby]

Given how few key cap sets are out there, I'm pretty much anything would sell. Especially at the prices that they've done in the past.

[AKmalamute]

honestly "gray" (all three choices) fall to the bottom of my list. Olivetti farthest of all because it looks like the keyboards I hated from the '80s.

Purple? I totally get we'd all need to agree, but can we agree on purple? Or green I don't care but not 'gray' please.

As to layout, I currently plan on making a wkl/1.75 using the Enabler. But at these prices if we could agree on a single layout it would make hitting the MOQ easier -- one kit, be warned you'll have lots of spare keys.

That's my opinion. In, so long as we can avoid olivetti.

[Hak Foo]

I think we should try to include at least a few common cases to handle compatiblity issues.

1.75x right shift, 1x backspace, and a 1x backslash to fit the backspace and shift rows-- will be a big help for "weird layout" boards.

[nuclearsandwich]

Azure or Purple would look hawt on a KingSaver

[CommonCurt]

Azure or Purple would look hawt on a KingSaver

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Yes Azure was also a color I was going to vote for.  Nice color blue.

[GhostofHarry]

I will try to ask taihao to lower the MOQ

I told them our problems of the add-on pack in the mx keycaps GB
And they are willing to lower MOQ from 500 to 300

So I think it is kind of possible to lower the MOQ for this case too

[CommonCurt]

I will try to ask taihao to lower the MOQ

I told them our problems of the add-on pack in the mx keycaps GB
And they are will to lower MOQ from 500 to 300

So I think it is kind of possible to lower the MOQ for this case too

I hope so.  500 moq?    Geesh

[Elrick]

Definitely in DOLCH, and the order shall amount from a total of about 12 sets for myself (price dependent of course).

You can't get perfection any closer to a simple Dolch Set, enough said.

[BlueBär]

Not too much of a fan of the granite but Olivetti and Dolch would be very nice.

[Hak Foo]

Granite, to me, just looks like Dolch Lite.  Olivetti at least clearly is going for something.

[CPTBadAss]

What stabilizers are they going to use? And which boards are these caps going to fit? As far as I know, there's very limited ANSI 1.25x boards. Which isn't a problem for me but it's going to be hard to hit MOQ when there's so little modern ANSI layout boards.

Will the caps fit an AT101W or Apple AEK? What about minitouch fans?

[HoffmanMyster]

What stabilizers are they going to use? And which boards are these caps going to fit? As far as I know, there's very limited ANSI 1.25x boards. Which isn't a problem for me but it's going to be hard to hit MOQ when there's so little modern ANSI layout boards.

Will the caps fit an AT101W or Apple AEK? What about minitouch fans?

I think there definitely needs to be ample layout support to make this buy work.

That said, I'll definitely buy at least one set, regardless of color scheme.  Something bright and fun would be my preference though.  Purple sounds nice.   

[GhostofHarry]

i might need some sample of stems and shape of keycaps to ask taihao if they can produce them

are there any pictures of the position of stems of stablizer and some special keycaps?

sorry i have 0 knowledge on alps 

[Hak Foo]

We need these stabilizer inserts--

http://imgur.com/a/vq9iQ

[CommonCurt]

What stabilizers are they going to use? And which boards are these caps going to fit? As far as I know, there's very limited ANSI 1.25x boards. Which isn't a problem for me but it's going to be hard to hit MOQ when there's so little modern ANSI layout boards.

Will the caps fit an AT101W or Apple AEK? What about minitouch fans?

Good question.  I plan on using these on a Dell AT101W and a KBParadise V60 MTS when it comes out.

[GhostofHarry]

We need these stabilizer inserts--

http://imgur.com/a/vq9iQ

are the stablizer on the keycaps simply cherry stems?

they look very alike
what are they exactly

[Hak Foo]

Just saw it on Reddit.  It has a Cherry-style connector on one end, but the stabilizer itself fits the ALPS-style stabilizer wires.

I suspect it's something that could be 3D-printed pretty cheaply.

[AKmalamute]

Will the caps fit an AT101W or Apple AEK? What about minitouch fans?

Again, my thought was that it would, in the long run be cheaper to have every reasonable modifier collection all together so there would only be one "kit" and any individual who got a kit would wind up with a complete keyboard -- and a lot of spare keys.

[skrsh3r]

Wang keycaps have bigger backspace,backslash,enter and right shift then what you see on sgi and dell board's then there are retarded big ass enter board's, problem is you can't satisfy everyone i would go with basic ansi with winkeyless add-ons and caps needed for kingsaver and wang board's eg bkspace enter rshift and backslash.

[nuclearsandwich]

A poll will be up Tuesday. I have a major test and a five page paper to write for Monday, that's why it won't be up sooner. Looks like I need to focus on the layout aspects as it seems to be way more important than color choices for most folks.

[pasph]

What stabilizers are they going to use? And which boards are these caps going to fit? As far as I know, there's very limited ANSI 1.25x boards. Which isn't a problem for me but it's going to be hard to hit MOQ when there's so little modern ANSI layout boards.

Will the caps fit an AT101W or Apple AEK? What about minitouch fans?

That's the answer or you may end with an unusable set

[CPTBadAss]

Well Hak Foo may have found an answer to the stabilizer question in this post. Seems that you can use Costar stabilizers just fine. But the question remains.

Looks like I need to focus on the layout aspects as it seems to be way more important than color choices for most folks.

I think this is the right idea and no worries on waiting. Take care of school first .

[Hak Foo]

It solves the problem  assuming you have alps-style stabilized keys, but a Costar-style stabilized board.  I. e. using a set of old Focus doubleshots on a Ducky 1008XM.

It does not really work the other way around.  For example, using new caps on an AT101W.  We'd either need different inserts, or different wires and Costar style inserts.  The ALPS wires are too long, and the Cosrtar wires have a bend in them that  won't really work well if jammed into the ALPS style board connector.

[nuclearsandwich]

Here is revision one of the form.

It isn't something you can just fill out on your phone as I ask for photographs of a lot of stuff. There will almost certainly be a followup which goes into more detail about stabilizers but this should get us something so we can see just how feasible this is and send the first pack of questions to Tai Hao.

My own personal twee comes out pretty strongly in the survey so if that's not your thing just muster up and you'll get through it okay.

[Elrick]

Filled out the POLL.  Only interested in buying key-caps for some Matias Keyboards ONLY  .

To me they're the only valid example of an ALPS switch keyboard and besides he needs more people to buy his keyboards because they are that good.

[occams_razor]

The Dell AT101(W) is the most available ALPS keyboard in the used market and easily the most accessible in terms of cost by a huge margin.  This is probably the fastest approach to hitting the MOQ.  And we can always support Matias by retrofitting Dells with his switches if this is a big deal (for more than one person).

[Hak Foo]

Honestly, I'd have no problem patronizing him, except that he doesn't sell what I need-- a full-size board, with a PC layout and the loud switches.

The Tactile Pro has neither a Menu nor an Insert key; I use both.  The Quiet Pro has the wrong switches.  The smaller boards are, well, smaller.

As a consolation prize, I have spent over $80 on his switches, which have ended up transplanted into a Ducky 1008XM and an AT101W, neither of which have those problems.


I might suggest we consider a table of the likely boards to serve:

Board	Modifiers	Enter	Backspace	Left Shift	Right Shift	Stabilizers	Space Bar
AT101	1.5x, Winkeyless	ANSI	2x	2.25x	2.75x	ALPS	7x
AT101W	1.25x, Winkey	ANSI	2x	2.25x	2.75x	ALPS	6.25x
AT102W	1.25x, Winkey	ISO	2x	1.25x	2.75x	ALPS	6.25x
Ducky 1008XM/1087XM	1.25x, Winkey	ANSI	2x	2.25x	2.75x	Costar	6.25x
Focus 2001 (old)	1.5x, Winkeyless	Bigass	2x	2.25x	2.75x	ALPS	7x
Focus 2001 (middle age), 9000	1.5x, Winkeyless	Bigass	2x	2.25x	1.75x	ALPS	7x
Focus 2001 (late)	1.25x, Winkey	Bigass	2x	2.25x	1.75x	ALPS	6.25x
Solidtek ASK-6600U	1.5x,1.0x,1.25x mixed, Winkey	Bigass	1x	2.25x	2.75x	Costar	6x
Typical Vintage Board	1.5x, Winkeyless	Bigass	1x	2.25x	2.75x	Variable, frequently ALPS	7x
Matias TP4	1.5x, 1x mixed, Winkey	ANSI	2x	2.25x	2.25x	ALPS?	7x

Boards with a 1x backspace have a 1x |\ to its left, except for Focus boards-- early ones put it in the bottom row, others put it by right shift.

I should note that many ALPS boards seem to have extra gadgetry in the space bars, but it's probably "expendable".

[nuclearsandwich]

The Dell AT101(W) is the most available ALPS keyboard in the used market and easily the most accessible in terms of cost by a huge margin.  This is probably the fastest approach to hitting the MOQ.  And we can always support Matias by retrofitting Dells with his switches if this is a big deal (for more than one person).

Matias's boards are mostly ANSI compatible. The issue for them is more in the stabilizer style. My Matias board is in San Francisco now so I can't demonstrate but the stabilizers are weird.

[skrsh3r]

dell at101, sgi granite, acer kb101 and Packard Bell T9201 are all the same and the only difference between them and at101w is space bar stabs they all use alps style stabs no costar crap.

[occams_razor]

Does anybody here know what kind of stabilizers the Rosewill RK-6000 uses?  It's loaded with 55cN clicky Alps clone switches made by Tai Hao.  And it wouldn't surprise me if Tai Hao made those keycaps too.

This keyboard is pretty low cost ($50) and would possibly be a good option to support (Except it's not ANSI.  Has a big-@ss-enter key.)   

EDIT:
Looks like Tai Hao actually makes the Rosewill RK-6000.  On their website, the keyboard is called "F21-7D APC".

[nuclearsandwich]

Does anybody here know what kind of stabilizers the Rosewill RK-6000 uses?  It's loaded with 55cN clicky Alps clone switches made by Tai Hao.  And it wouldn't surprise me if Tai Hao made those keycaps too.

This keyboard is pretty low cost ($50) and would possibly be a good option to support (Except it's not ANSI.  Has a big-@ss-enter key.)   

EDIT:
Looks like Tai Hao actually makes the Rosewill RK-6000.  On their website, the keyboard is called "F21-7D APC".

I've got one one new in box that I forgot about. I'll be able to get stabilizer pictures of that one which should give us a good idea of what Tai Hao is working with.

[Hak Foo]

dell at101, sgi granite, acer kb101 and Packard Bell T9201 are all the same and the only difference between them and at101w is space bar stabs they all use alps style stabs no costar crap.

No, the big issue is thgat the AT101W needs 1.25x modifiers, while the others need 1.5.
There are definitely more swap options out there for Winkeyless board layouts... I've only found  late-generation Focus FK-2001s as a source of doubleshot 1.25x modifiers, and they have poor swappability on other keys.

[nuclearsandwich]

dell at101, sgi granite, acer kb101 and Packard Bell T9201 are all the same and the only difference between them and at101w is space bar stabs they all use alps style stabs no costar crap.

No, the big issue is thgat the AT101W needs 1.25x modifiers, while the others need 1.5.
There are definitely more swap options out there for Winkeyless board layouts... I've only found  late-generation Focus FK-2001s as a source of doubleshot 1.25x modifiers, and they have poor swappability on other keys.

In any case both winkeyless and winkey modifiers are planned.

[mian2222]

I'm new to the group buy stuff so this is probably a long shot, but is it possible to just buy add-on packs without the full board? I'm trying to build an ALPs Ergodox. I'd buy the full board+add-ons too as the full board isn't too expensive but honestly I wouldn't use like half the keys.

[intelli78]

I'm new to the group buy stuff so this is probably a long shot, but is it possible to just buy add-on packs without the full board? I'm trying to build an ALPs Ergodox. I'd buy the full board+add-ons too as the full board isn't too expensive but honestly I wouldn't use like half the keys.

Yea you should be able to do that, IF (pretty big if) this actually happens.

[mian2222]

All right to show my noobiness even more about this group buy stuff. When we talk about 500 units for the MOQ, are we talking 500 caps in total or 500 sets? Seems like 500 caps in total is doable if 5 people get a set of caps ... so I'm assuming that is not the case. I tried to find a FAQ somewhere about this but I couldn't find one so sorry if this is such a simple question.

[BlueBär]

All right to show my noobiness even more about this group buy stuff. When we talk about 500 units for the MOQ, are we talking 500 caps in total or 500 sets? Seems like 500 caps in total is doable if 5 people get a set of caps ... so I'm assuming that is not the case. I tried to find a FAQ somewhere about this but I couldn't find one so sorry if this is such a simple question.

500 sets - 500 caps would be way too easy to reach

[mian2222]

That's what I figured. At even 300 ... its not much of a difference!

[Hak Foo]

But ALPS fans are a captive audience-- there are dozens oif MX group buys and off-the-shelf products available now.

[Pacifist]

Did anybody contact sp and see what their alps MOQ is?

[Hak Foo]

Does SP even have all the sizes for ALPS?

OTOH, if they can do DSA ALPS, that probably streamlines selection quite a bit.

[Pacifist]

Does SP even have all the sizes for ALPS?

OTOH, if they can do DSA ALPS, that probably streamlines selection quite a bit.

I have my doubts about hitting 500 for an alps buy. But if we can go with SP with a slightly higher cost but a realistic MOQ, that would be best. Unfortuantly there aren't that many Alps lovers

[CommonCurt]

Does SP even have all the sizes for ALPS?

OTOH, if they can do DSA ALPS, that probably streamlines selection quite a bit.

I have my doubts about hitting 500 for an alps buy. But if we can go with SP with a slightly higher cost but a realistic MOQ, that would be best. Unfortuantly there aren't that many Alps lovers

Good idea.  More color scheme options also.

[Hak Foo]

If anyone cares still, they tore down the Rosewill board with Tai Hao switches.  I don't know if it's actually made by Tai Hao, or just uses their switches, but it appears to use ALPS-style stabilizers

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58715.0;topicseen

[nuclearsandwich]

Based on the number of survey responses (fewer people than in this thread) a 500 kit MOQ is not going to happen without vendor backing. I'm going to leave the IC open and start verifying that we can support plethorae of layouts and stabilizer configurations. I've also been disassembling old and new Alps boards to see what our stabilizer options can be and to start some 3D designs for making new stabilizer parts from Shapeways. I've got old Alps boards with fatty stabilizer mounts for the inserts and old boards that have MX stem style mounts for stabilizer inserts. It will take me some time to confer with Signature Plastics about the current state of their stabilized Alps tooling.

[terrpn]

folks how many times have us ALPSZERS been doing this wrong just to see it fall all apart because we we all want everything-- there are a ga-zillion different alps lay-outs out there. Trying to figure the stabs, stems, etc is where we lose  the order and the people.

why can't we at just start with a base 54 or num pad or function row set that will tolerate 90% alps boards with all the various alps layouts

come back later date and maybe do the dell at101w mods if someone can do the stabs and stems, ducky 1087 anci, etc.

biut at "least" get moving on something that "can" be agreed onm as they are pretty much all the same.

somebody do something so we don't let one fail like the others.

add some special novelty key to be offered  with the kit.

maybe binge (or someone equal) would be willing to make a custom key for oiur first alps buy?

[Techno Trousers]

I'd be down for starting with a set of just the 1x keys to simplify and get the ball rolling. Sorry I didn't make time to fill out the survey. For what it's worth, I'd like to kit out two abs M1s (straightforward ANSI 104 layout), and maybe one or two Dell AT101Ws, although I know those have problematic modifiers.

[nuclearsandwich]

I'd be down for starting with a set of just the 1x keys to simplify and get the ball rolling. Sorry I didn't make time to fill out the survey. For what it's worth, I'd like to kit out two abs M1s (straightforward ANSI 104 layout), and maybe one or two Dell AT101Ws, although I know those have problematic modifiers.

That's good to know but it isn't data until it makes it into the survey so when you've got some time I'd really love you to record that. Thanks!

[Magna224]

id be in.

[The Eight-Bit Link]

Oh yay, a way to get keycaps!
I have a pile of ALPS whites and a set of doubleshots that I wanted to make a keyboard out of, but I'm missing some keys. I figured I'd just get a whole new set.

[gotofbi]

I am down for couple sets

[geniekid]

Filled out the poll!  I have lots of opinions on layouts and colors but none of them would be dealbreakers given how sparse the landscape looks for ALPS caps.