Author Topic: WHY is the HHKB superior?  (Read 45329 times)

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Offline daerid

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 14:47:00 »
I'm not a fan of the layout, makes my wrists hurt.

Love the visual aesthetic of it, but in practice it just doesn't work out for me.

Offline Novus

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 14:48:23 »
Before you buy an HHKB you have to ask yourself.
Are you a mother****ing wannabee or do you actually vim?

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 14:52:20 »
Before you buy an HHKB you have to ask yourself.
Are you a mother****ing wannabee or do you actually vim?


If you by "vim" mean enthusiastic about this whole thing, then yes. If you mean something else, or there is some damn inside joke I'm not getting here, then I've got absolutely no clue, brother.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 14:56:42 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_%28text_editor%29

Either way, I would say that your usage of vim doesn't mean anything in regard to the using a HHKB. Perhaps it's optimized for a certain usage, but I use it every day on a Windows computer, and I have zero problems with doing so. Does this make me a wannabe? If you say so.

Offline sth

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 14:57:14 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_%28text_editor%29

Either way, I would say that your usage of vim doesn't mean anything in regard to the using a HHKB. Perhaps it's optimized for a certain usage, but I use it every day on a Windows computer, and I have zero problems with doing so. Does this make me a wannabe? If you say so.

will you STOP not trolling? jeez
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Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:12:18 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_%28text_editor%29

Either way, I would say that your usage of vim doesn't mean anything in regard to the using a HHKB. Perhaps it's optimized for a certain usage, but I use it every day on a Windows computer, and I have zero problems with doing so. Does this make me a wannabe? If you say so.

will you STOP not trolling? jeez

I got the trolling part.. but it didn't really hit homerun in my park. Oh well, every man to his each or whatever the saying is in english :))

EDIT: thanks for the link btw, esoo.. cleared some things up. For some weird reason I thought vim was an abbreviation or something, so I never simply googled "vim", but always "vim meaning".
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:22:54 by Sagii »

Offline DasHHKBProM

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:38:23 »
the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

Offline Novus

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 15:57:45 »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_%28text_editor%29

Either way, I would say that your usage of vim doesn't mean anything in regard to the using a HHKB. Perhaps it's optimized for a certain usage, but I use it every day on a Windows computer, and I have zero problems with doing so. Does this make me a wannabe? If you say so.

You're a moose, not a wannabe.
Get your **** together, geez.
Also remember kids, type-s or gtfo.


Offline p3lim

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 16:13:46 »
the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

Then building a GH60 would be the trifecta, you get a keyboard with both "geek" and "hack" in it, and you get to make it yourself!
Oh and you could do the HHKB layout on it, only "downside" then would be the switches.

Offline esoomenona

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #59 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 16:17:18 »
the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

Then building a GH60 would be the trifecta, you get a keyboard with both "geek" and "hack" in it, and you get to make it yourself!
Oh and you could do the HHKB layout on it, only "downside" then would be the switches.

Obviously you build it with Browns and then stuff them full of grease.

Offline wharrislv

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #60 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 16:45:22 »
You can get the thock from any topre board, but not the layout.  I prefer it much more than my 60% boards.  I spend all of my time in linux for the most part, so that has a lot to do with it.  There are some modifications, like putting ctrl where caps lock is, that you can do on your own with hacks in your OS and possibly your boards firmware, but other placements end up making a lot of sense. 

The HHKB build quality is, in my opinion, unparalleled amongst my MANY boards, even the Model M, and it looks great. 

Like many other examples of Japanese craftsmanship in manufacturing, there are no "holy ****" features, but the accumulation of many small touches that make it, to me, the best keyboard in the world.
Current daily drivers : HHKB Pro 2, HHKB Lite in a server rack, A few Filco numpads in brown and blue, Pure Pro in Brown with Rainbow PBT, CM Ninja in Brown with white engaved PBTs, two Model Ms 89 and 91 with a few red esc, Ergodox full in clear with blanks, a jdcarpe built 40% awaiting some Round 6 keycaps, and soon a Gon custom.  Hundreds more on site at a mechanical friendly work site where I am the purchaser.  If it exists, I probably have used one!

Offline rowdy

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 20:46:38 »
Case-mount switches, so it's sturdy but light.

Very good for portability if you want to carry keyboard around with you.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

Ị̸͚̯̲́ͤ̃͑̇̑ͯ̊̂͟ͅs̞͚̩͉̝̪̲͗͊ͪ̽̚̚ ̭̦͖͕̑́͌ͬͩ͟t̷̻͔̙̑͟h̹̠̼͋ͤ͋i̤̜̣̦̱̫͈͔̞ͭ͑ͥ̌̔s̬͔͎̍̈ͥͫ̐̾ͣ̔̇͘ͅ ̩̘̼͆̐̕e̞̰͓̲̺̎͐̏ͬ̓̅̾͠͝ͅv̶̰͕̱̞̥̍ͣ̄̕e͕͙͖̬̜͓͎̤̊ͭ͐͝ṇ̰͎̱̤̟̭ͫ͌̌͢͠ͅ ̳̥̦ͮ̐ͤ̎̊ͣ͡͡n̤̜̙̺̪̒͜e̶̻̦̿ͮ̂̀c̝̘̝͖̠̖͐ͨͪ̈̐͌ͩ̀e̷̥͇̋ͦs̢̡̤ͤͤͯ͜s͈̠̉̑͘a̱͕̗͖̳̥̺ͬͦͧ͆̌̑͡r̶̟̖̈͘ỷ̮̦̩͙͔ͫ̾ͬ̔ͬͮ̌?̵̘͇͔͙ͥͪ͞ͅ

Offline anoxy

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 20 May 2014, 21:03:18 »
Can't say I like the layout of it either, though I've never tried it. I also don't really like how symmetrical it is. But this is coming from an adamant Leo FC660 fan.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 00:10:42 »
I like reading people that don't like it as well. Keep it coming :) the formfactor is also very appealing to me.. I'll be living in a small apartment with my partner, and space isn't exactly something we'll have in abundance!

Offline sth

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 08:49:16 »
Can't say I like the layout of it either, though I've never tried it.

 :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

yes basically this is the most important thing
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Offline Wildcard

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 09:25:10 »
For those who use function keys often, are you ever bothered by the HHKB or 60% layouts? It might just be me, but this is something that's started to bug me with my FC660C

Offline Oobly

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 09:30:21 »
Can't say I like the layout of it either, though I've never tried it.

 :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

yes basically this is the most important thing

GH60 FTW then (has both Geek and Hack in the name)... With HHKB physical and default layer layout, but Fn layer like this:

[ ; ' and Enter as inverted T arrow cluster.
P as Home.
] as End.
L as PgUp.
. as PgDn.

Plate mounted, in a CNC aluminium case (with proper corner blockers, like the HHKB).

Also, trampoline and latex modded, worn-in and lubed 62g ErgoClears. Panda Clear (Clear with Black spring) on space bar.

Thick PBT Cherry profile caps.

Endgame board....

/thread
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline sth

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 09:43:32 »
Can't say I like the layout of it either, though I've never tried it.

 :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

the way the keyboard transitively uses the verb hacking in its title should count for something

yes basically this is the most important thing

GH60 FTW then (has both Geek and Hack in the name)... With HHKB physical and default layer layout, but Fn layer like this:

[ ; ' and Enter as inverted T arrow cluster.
P as Home.
] as End.
L as PgUp.
. as PgDn.

Plate mounted, in a CNC aluminium case (with proper corner blockers, like the HHKB).

Also, trampoline and latex modded, worn-in and lubed 62g ErgoClears. Panda Clear (Clear with Black spring) on space bar.

Thick PBT Cherry profile caps.

Endgame board....

/thread

lol no
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline epzy

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 09:48:17 »
NotevenTopre.jpg
FaceW ~ Duck Viper ~ Kishsaver ~ HHKB Pro 2 Cherry G81-3000SAU ~ Filco Majestouch 2 ~ GON NS NerD 60 HHKB ~ 360 Corsa (jk skam) ~ KMAC Happy (jk skam) ~ JD40 (jk skam)

Offline esoomenona

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 21 May 2014, 09:55:09 »
NotevenTopre.jpg

Obviously you build it with Browns and then stuff them full of grease.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 09:44:54 »
Well, now I'm totally considering buying the HKKB... My Poker 2 with browns got cancelled by qtan, so I'm once again in search for a new keyboard!

Offline epzy

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 09:45:54 »
Buy. It.
FaceW ~ Duck Viper ~ Kishsaver ~ HHKB Pro 2 Cherry G81-3000SAU ~ Filco Majestouch 2 ~ GON NS NerD 60 HHKB ~ 360 Corsa (jk skam) ~ KMAC Happy (jk skam) ~ JD40 (jk skam)

Offline allocerveau

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 09:51:03 »
For those who use function keys often, are you ever bothered by the HHKB or 60% layouts? It might just be me, but this is something that's started to bug me with my FC660C
I use a HHKB and I always find the Fn key with my right pinky without any difficulty. The fact that it is on the edge of the board helps a lot I guess, I know without looking at the board where it is. Although I guess having to reach it a bit further down among similar-length keys on the FC660 would bother me a bit.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:03:00 »
Buy. It.


It's just.. the pricetag, alien layout, and topre switches which I've never tried that's really holding me back
I also use arrowkeys a lot to navigate when writing texts. >_>

Offline allocerveau

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #74 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:04:12 »
Buy. It.


It's just.. the pricetag, alien layout, and topre switches which I've never tried that's really holding me back
I also use arrowkeys a lot to navigate when writing texts. >_>
So ... you're not considering it at all then ?

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #75 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:05:57 »
Buy. It.


It's just.. the pricetag, alien layout, and topre switches which I've never tried that's really holding me back
I also use arrowkeys a lot to navigate when writing texts. >_>
So ... you're not considering it at all then ?

Yes, I am.. Even because of all those things I just mentioned. And that's basically because of all the good reviews it has gotten. I also like owning something that's a bit different!

Offline Defect

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #76 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:07:01 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)

Edit: for me, I don't regret buying my topre, and I'm glad I have one around.  But I sometimes wish I instead spent the money on pcbs/springs/switches to make more boards for friends.
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:08:43 by Defect »

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:11:40 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)

Edit: for me, I don't regret buying my topre, and I'm glad I have one around.  But I sometimes wish I instead spent the money on pcbs/springs/switches to make more boards for friends.

Haha, indeed! I might just be fighting a lost cause here :)) But for now I really don't want to spend too much money on modding and having fun with caps. I''ll be a poor student next year :)) I'll most likely put this on hold for a while, but I want a really good keyboard while waiting !

Offline allocerveau

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:12:48 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)
I went straight from a 6GV2 to a HHKB and didn't regret it one bit. But indeed, there was no hesitation, I was sure that was the board for me.

Sagil, if you're not sure about it, don't go for it just now. Give yourself a week or two to think about it thoroughly, because it is indeed an expensive item and buyer's remorse sucks.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:27:47 »
The HHKB Pro 2 is definitely not just for programmers. It is a great keyboard for general use. I have posted a review here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0
Professor Wada researched the layout thoroughly and came up with something that is highly intuitive and efficient. Nevertheless, I was very skeptical, and it took me months of deliberation before finally committing to a purchase. I was pleasantly surprised to find that I adjusted to the "alien" layout almost immediately. Now, even the cursor diamond is second nature. I like the layout so much that I have remapped my other keyboards to emulate the HHKB as closely as possible.

Other things to like include the overall elegant design (including its 60% form factor and symmetry), dye-sublimated keycaps, and Topre switches.

The total package is a masterpiece of modern keyboards that has become one of my all-time favorites. Others that I like include the IBM Model F XT and the IBM Model M SSK. I actually prefer the IBM buckling spring switches, especially the capacitive switches in the XT, to the Topre switches in the HHKB Pro 2. However, I have remapped my IBMs to the HHKB layout, and I rotate among the IBMs and the HHKB Pro 2.


Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:49:45 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)
I went straight from a 6GV2 to a HHKB and didn't regret it one bit. But indeed, there was no hesitation, I was sure that was the board for me.

Sagil, if you're not sure about it, don't go for it just now. Give yourself a week or two to think about it thoroughly, because it is indeed an expensive item and buyer's remorse sucks.

Oooh, trust me, I've given this more than a couple weeks of thinking! :)) But you're indeed right, it's not a "just buy it" type of item.
I love the looks of the HHKB, and I like how small of a footprint it has. I also like that it's different, it's not just a "normal keyboard" kind of.  But I'm also thinking a Poker 2 might be the better choice, simply because of the programming abilities. But the HHKB seems to have it all from the getgo. This sh** ain't supposed to be easy!

Even though I AM whining quite a bit, I definetely enjoy the search though, which is important to note! I like doing the reasearch, I like hearing other people's thoughts, and I love being able to find something (AKA customising in many other areas) that one board that really suits my needs.

EDIT: I'm kinda qustioning the topre switches for gaming though.. I really haven't found any proper description of what topre feels like. Everyone says "it's in another league" or "you can't compare it to anything". But really, is there anything it's possible to compare it with? Does it have the same tactile feedback as blue mx, does it feel as light as reds, etc.
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 May 2014, 10:53:34 by Sagii »

Offline Defect

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #81 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 11:17:43 »
EDIT: I'm kinda qustioning the topre switches for gaming though.. I really haven't found any proper description of what topre feels like. Everyone says "it's in another league" or "you can't compare it to anything". But really, is there anything it's possible to compare it with? Does it have the same tactile feedback as blue mx, does it feel as light as reds, etc.
It's just high quality rubber dome that actuated half way rather than bottom out.

It's smooth (like worn out and lubed MX, which is rare), very little wiggle, and just feels nice.  But it's undeniably still rubber dome.  55g are tactile at the top, crisp almost.  But once you break initial tactility it's got no cushion force, so you'll still bottom out.  No comments from me on 45g.  But it'd rubber dome also.

Also, topre domes have pretty high variance so your switches may feel different even within the same board.  Maybe HHKB doesn't have this issue.

Not pictured: KeyCool 84 [MX Red] | Focus 2001 [Complicated White Alps]
Endgame Board | Defect's Watermelon Board Build Doc

Offline ideus

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 11:55:41 »
Well... I like Ctrl key in place of Caps Lock. it's where it SHOULD be.

And I think you'll like Poker II. It's my work keyboard and I adore it :)

Control key can be swapped with caps lock in any board.

Offline ideus

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #83 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 11:59:23 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)
I went straight from a 6GV2 to a HHKB and didn't regret it one bit. But indeed, there was no hesitation, I was sure that was the board for me.

Sagil, if you're not sure about it, don't go for it just now. Give yourself a week or two to think about it thoroughly, because it is indeed an expensive item and buyer's remorse sucks.

Oooh, trust me, I've given this more than a couple weeks of thinking! :)) But you're indeed right, it's not a "just buy it" type of item.
I love the looks of the HHKB, and I like how small of a footprint it has. I also like that it's different, it's not just a "normal keyboard" kind of.  But I'm also thinking a Poker 2 might be the better choice, simply because of the programming abilities. But the HHKB seems to have it all from the getgo. This sh** ain't supposed to be easy!

Even though I AM whining quite a bit, I definetely enjoy the search though, which is important to note! I like doing the reasearch, I like hearing other people's thoughts, and I love being able to find something (AKA customising in many other areas) that one board that really suits my needs.

EDIT: I'm kinda qustioning the topre switches for gaming though.. I really haven't found any proper description of what topre feels like. Everyone says "it's in another league" or "you can't compare it to anything". But really, is there anything it's possible to compare it with? Does it have the same tactile feedback as blue mx, does it feel as light as reds, etc.

I think there were a thread discussing the use of topre switches for gaming. If you like to do your own research I am pretty sure you can find it. In the other hand, it is all about personal feeling, thus at the end you should give the switches a try to get your very own personal opinion.

I also suggest you to update the title of your thread, it began as a thread on layout, and now it is about switches.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #84 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 12:08:08 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)
I went straight from a 6GV2 to a HHKB and didn't regret it one bit. But indeed, there was no hesitation, I was sure that was the board for me.

Sagil, if you're not sure about it, don't go for it just now. Give yourself a week or two to think about it thoroughly, because it is indeed an expensive item and buyer's remorse sucks.

Oooh, trust me, I've given this more than a couple weeks of thinking! :)) But you're indeed right, it's not a "just buy it" type of item.
I love the looks of the HHKB, and I like how small of a footprint it has. I also like that it's different, it's not just a "normal keyboard" kind of.  But I'm also thinking a Poker 2 might be the better choice, simply because of the programming abilities. But the HHKB seems to have it all from the getgo. This sh** ain't supposed to be easy!

Even though I AM whining quite a bit, I definetely enjoy the search though, which is important to note! I like doing the reasearch, I like hearing other people's thoughts, and I love being able to find something (AKA customising in many other areas) that one board that really suits my needs.

EDIT: I'm kinda qustioning the topre switches for gaming though.. I really haven't found any proper description of what topre feels like. Everyone says "it's in another league" or "you can't compare it to anything". But really, is there anything it's possible to compare it with? Does it have the same tactile feedback as blue mx, does it feel as light as reds, etc.

I think there were a thread discussing the use of topre switches for gaming. If you like to do your own research I am pretty sure you can find it. In the other hand, it is all about personal feeling, thus at the end you should give the switches a try to get your very own personal opinion.

I also suggest you to update the title of your thread, it began as a thread on layout, and now it is about switches.

Thanks for the tip on thread.. I'll be honest and say that I didn't do a search before editing, it was something that just suddenly popped up in my mind :)
Anywhoo.. when it comes to the title, I believe it is still appropriate. The OP could be changed, however. The whole has basically developed into a discussion of the HHKB in general, and the title itself does not imply anything other than that :) (IMO)

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 12:23:13 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)

Edit: for me, I don't regret buying my topre, and I'm glad I have one around.  But I sometimes wish I instead spent the money on pcbs/springs/switches to make more boards for friends.
Yep, I certainly went down that road. In the end, I ended up with the HHKB Pro 2 as one of my all-time favorite boards. This might lead me to conclude that I should have saved all the money spent on other boards and to have bought the HHKB in the first place. However, then I would have had no basis for comparison and I always would have wondered.

A close contender for me was the Leopold FC660C (the one with Topre switches, not to be confused with the FC660M, which has Cherry mx switches). Actually, I got both of them, but I much preferred the FC66C with Topre switches. However, the layout didn't seem quite right and I didn't like the appearance of the keycaps. Although I have a slight preference for the sound and feel of the FC660C over the HHKB, I favor the HHKB overall for its combination of sound, feel, form factor, layout, styling/design/symmetry, and attractive/legible dye-sub keycaps.

Along the way, I tried the Poker II. I was attracted to the Poker because of its form factor, standard layout, availability of replacement keycaps, and availability of metal cases. However, I have found that I just don't like Cherry mx switches -- they don't provide the same aural/tactile connection with actuation that I get from Topre or IBM buckling spring switches. Moreover, I find that Cherry boards have an uneven feel between alpha keys and stabilized keys, whether the stabilizers are Costar or Cherry. To me, the keys across the board in an IBM buckling spring or a Topre switch board feel more uniform.

Of course, YMMV as they say. Ultimately, you will need to test various boards yourself to decide which ones work well for you.

(Typed on my Mac with an IBM XT keyboard remapped to a HHKB layout).

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 14:18:11 »
Sagii you're going to end up like me (and many others on here).  Your indecisiveness mixed with curiosity is going to take you on an adventure to buy every board out there.

My personal recommendation is to hold out until you can get a cheaper topre to see if you even like the switch, and go with 1-2 mx boards for now.  Although,  the downside is that if you are one of those Topre folks, you will feel you wasted money on MX boards.

But then you can take apart and mod your MX boards for even more fun :)

Edit: for me, I don't regret buying my topre, and I'm glad I have one around.  But I sometimes wish I instead spent the money on pcbs/springs/switches to make more boards for friends.
Yep, I certainly went down that road. In the end, I ended up with the HHKB Pro 2 as one of my all-time favorite boards. This might lead me to conclude that I should have saved all the money spent on other boards and to have bought the HHKB in the first place. However, then I would have had no basis for comparison and I always would have wondered.

A close contender for me was the Leopold FC660C (the one with Topre switches, not to be confused with the FC660M, which has Cherry mx switches). Actually, I got both of them, but I much preferred the FC66C with Topre switches. However, the layout didn't seem quite right and I didn't like the appearance of the keycaps. Although I have a slight preference for the sound and feel of the FC660C over the HHKB, I favor the HHKB overall for its combination of sound, feel, form factor, layout, styling/design/symmetry, and attractive/legible dye-sub keycaps.

Along the way, I tried the Poker II. I was attracted to the Poker because of its form factor, standard layout, availability of replacement keycaps, and availability of metal cases. However, I have found that I just don't like Cherry mx switches -- they don't provide the same aural/tactile connection with actuation that I get from Topre or IBM buckling spring switches. Moreover, I find that Cherry boards have an uneven feel between alpha keys and stabilized keys, whether the stabilizers are Costar or Cherry. To me, the keys across the board in an IBM buckling spring or a Topre switch board feel more uniform.

Of course, YMMV as they say. Ultimately, you will need to test various boards yourself to decide which ones work well for you.

(Typed on my Mac with an IBM XT keyboard remapped to a HHKB layout).

Thanks for the detailed reply :) And yes.. I guess lots of this still boils down to which switch I like/do not like. The biggest problem is that the ONLY switch available for me to try would be the orange mx compatible switches from razer, browns (ONLY on a g710+, which has o-rings), and probably the occasional red switch (haven't seen one yet). So really.. it's extremely hard for me to find out which switch I like without spending quite a bit of money :/

Offline allocerveau

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #87 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 14:35:08 »
Oh and by the way, I'm going to sell my HHKB Type S, check the classified section soon ;)

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #88 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 16:03:14 »
Ehm.. I feel like a noob asking about this, but what exactly are the two keys on either side of the spacebar used for? I mean, you've got the two alt keys, but the two on the inside of the alt keys.

Offline Pacifist

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #89 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 16:03:54 »
Ehm.. I feel like a noob asking about this, but what exactly are the two keys on either side of the spacebar used for? I mean, you've got the two alt keys, but the two on the inside of the alt keys.

ctrl/caps

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #90 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 16:05:12 »
Ehm.. I feel like a noob asking about this, but what exactly are the two keys on either side of the spacebar used for? I mean, you've got the two alt keys, but the two on the inside of the alt keys.

ctrl/caps

Ah.. okey, so both are ctrl/caps keys? (dependig on the DIPs, I presume)

Offline Pacifist

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #91 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 16:06:23 »
Ehm.. I feel like a noob asking about this, but what exactly are the two keys on either side of the spacebar used for? I mean, you've got the two alt keys, but the two on the inside of the alt keys.

ctrl/caps

Ah.. okey, so both are ctrl/caps keys? (dependig on the DIPs, I presume)

basicially regular bottom row but without win keys, dip switch will flip ctrl and caps

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #92 on: Mon, 26 May 2014, 16:07:39 »
Ehm.. I feel like a noob asking about this, but what exactly are the two keys on either side of the spacebar used for? I mean, you've got the two alt keys, but the two on the inside of the alt keys.

ctrl/caps

Ah.. okey, so both are ctrl/caps keys? (dependig on the DIPs, I presume)

basicially regular bottom row but without win keys, dip switch will flip ctrl and caps

Alright, thanks!

Offline atlas3686

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #93 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 01:54:55 »
They are meta keys (windows/command). On mac I actually set them as Ctrl and my control as command but that is just to make switching between mac and windows shortcuts more seamless.

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Offline Fragil1ty

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #94 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 02:23:19 »
Okey, I know there are some threads floating around here, but I wanted to ask a pretty specific question: What about the HHKB's layout is it that makes it superior to all other layouts? Is it only for programmers using specific programs it is so damn good, or is it for all everyday users? I'm extremely intruiged by the keyboard, and I'm really considering jumping straight to it.. after my next paycheck.
However, I'm defo not a programmer, and all I'll be using my KB for is gaming, browsing, typing (I'm a psychology student, AKA I will be writing lots of essay like papers), and just general use.
As always, I know everything is personal preference, but I want to hear your opinions! :)


I wouldn't call it superior to all over boards, but it's definitely the best Topre board out there for sure. I want one really badly, but I couldn't use one it's just too small for me, 60% boards don't cut it for me, I need a 75% board or nothing at-all :(.


If they made a 75% HHKB, then I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #95 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 02:32:35 »
Okey, I know there are some threads floating around here, but I wanted to ask a pretty specific question: What about the HHKB's layout is it that makes it superior to all other layouts? Is it only for programmers using specific programs it is so damn good, or is it for all everyday users? I'm extremely intruiged by the keyboard, and I'm really considering jumping straight to it.. after my next paycheck.
However, I'm defo not a programmer, and all I'll be using my KB for is gaming, browsing, typing (I'm a psychology student, AKA I will be writing lots of essay like papers), and just general use.
As always, I know everything is personal preference, but I want to hear your opinions! :)


I wouldn't call it superior to all over boards, but it's definitely the best Topre board out there for sure. I want one really badly, but I couldn't use one it's just too small for me, 60% boards don't cut it for me, I need a 75% board or nothing at-all :(.


If they made a 75% HHKB, then I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

If you use 75% for the arrow keys, then there's the Leopold FC660C. If you use the F keys a lot, there's the Realforce TKL.

As for me, I'll stick to my consistent and moddable MX switches on a 60% layout with usable arrow keys and home and end in decent places, thanks.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #96 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 02:46:20 »
Okey, I know there are some threads floating around here, but I wanted to ask a pretty specific question: What about the HHKB's layout is it that makes it superior to all other layouts? Is it only for programmers using specific programs it is so damn good, or is it for all everyday users? I'm extremely intruiged by the keyboard, and I'm really considering jumping straight to it.. after my next paycheck.
However, I'm defo not a programmer, and all I'll be using my KB for is gaming, browsing, typing (I'm a psychology student, AKA I will be writing lots of essay like papers), and just general use.
As always, I know everything is personal preference, but I want to hear your opinions! :)


I wouldn't call it superior to all over boards, but it's definitely the best Topre board out there for sure. I want one really badly, but I couldn't use one it's just too small for me, 60% boards don't cut it for me, I need a 75% board or nothing at-all :(.


If they made a 75% HHKB, then I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

If you use 75% for the arrow keys, then there's the Leopold FC660C. If you use the F keys a lot, there's the Realforce TKL.

As for me, I'll stick to my consistent and moddable MX switches on a 60% layout with usable arrow keys and home and end in decent places, thanks.

The leopold is definitely an interesting board.. the thing is that the asymmetry bothers me a lot :))
I've had the chance to buy the HHKBPro 2 for about 280$ as of right now.. I decided not to buy it just yet though!

Offline Elrick

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #97 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 03:14:01 »
Okey, I know there are some threads floating around here, but I wanted to ask a pretty specific question: What about the HHKB's layout is it that makes it superior to all other layouts? Is it only for programmers using specific programs it is so damn good, or is it for all everyday users? I'm extremely intruiged by the keyboard, and I'm really considering jumping straight to it.. after my next paycheck.
However, I'm defo not a programmer, and all I'll be using my KB for is gaming, browsing, typing (I'm a psychology student, AKA I will be writing lots of essay like papers), and just general use.
As always, I know everything is personal preference, but I want to hear your opinions! :)

I wouldn't call it superior to all over boards, but it's definitely the best Topre board out there for sure. I want one really badly, but I couldn't use one it's just too small for me, 60% boards don't cut it for me, I need a 75% board or nothing at-all :( .


If they made a 75% HHKB, then I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.



Exactly.  60 percent is just way too small, literally in the calculator range when it comes to size.  In fact you can really only use one hand but couldn't use two hands at the same time unless you want to rub both sides of your hands together with your index fingers  ::) .

Maybe I've got rock-ape hands and only a certain sized keyboard suits me (minimum standard TKL) but HHKB is just too small.  Plus you need to use both hands due to certain keys being only accessible via an FN selection.

If they decide to make a TKL HHKB then it'll be worth buying but if they did, can you imagine the price tag maybe around $500 to $600 non silenced........

Offline Oobly

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #98 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 03:24:20 »
Okey, I know there are some threads floating around here, but I wanted to ask a pretty specific question: What about the HHKB's layout is it that makes it superior to all other layouts? Is it only for programmers using specific programs it is so damn good, or is it for all everyday users? I'm extremely intruiged by the keyboard, and I'm really considering jumping straight to it.. after my next paycheck.
However, I'm defo not a programmer, and all I'll be using my KB for is gaming, browsing, typing (I'm a psychology student, AKA I will be writing lots of essay like papers), and just general use.
As always, I know everything is personal preference, but I want to hear your opinions! :)

I wouldn't call it superior to all over boards, but it's definitely the best Topre board out there for sure. I want one really badly, but I couldn't use one it's just too small for me, 60% boards don't cut it for me, I need a 75% board or nothing at-all :(.


If they made a 75% HHKB, then I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

If you use 75% for the arrow keys, then there's the Leopold FC660C. If you use the F keys a lot, there's the Realforce TKL.

As for me, I'll stick to my consistent and moddable MX switches on a 60% layout with usable arrow keys and home and end in decent places, thanks.

The leopold is definitely an interesting board.. the thing is that the asymmetry bothers me a lot :))
I've had the chance to buy the HHKBPro 2 for about 280$ as of right now.. I decided not to buy it just yet though!

<start off-topic rant>

Well, if you're into symmetry there are only a few boards that qualify ;) Truly Ergonomic, ErgoDox, some symmetrical stagger boards, my custom DIY board, AcidFire's Axios project, etc.

"Normal" layout boards are all asymmetrical, the Q and A rows are horizontally staggered by 1/4 keyspace, so it's impossible to make them symmetrical. This is a legacy of the original "Type-Writer" keyboard designed by Christopher Sholes. It was designed so the levers for the strikers could lie next to each other and be centered on each keycap. The layout was also designed to prevent letters in close physical proximity from being struck too soon after each other due to the strikers relying on gravity to return to their default position. The machine sold well, so we got stuck with the QWERTY layout on all subsequent Typewiters, even though Sholes had designed a better layout for his 2nd model 5 years later which used springs to return the strikers (Remington & Sons refused to change the layout, arguing that too many people were already used to QWERTY). Then, when they first electrical and electronic keyboards were made they stuck to the staggered row layout for the same reason of familiarity. So now we have 2 outmoded, unergonomic, inefficient and downright bad "features" common to practically all modern keyboards when there is no reason other than familiarity and tradition to keep them. There is certainly no practical need to keep them, since we don't have mechanical levers under the caps that need to lie next to each other and the characters can be typed in any order at any speed without "jamming" the system.

Another thing we can blame on the legacy of "it's always been done that way" is how much we overload the pinkie with modifiers and other functions. In the beginning, everything was typed in upper case, so there were only the alpha and number keys with a few punctuation keys. When the shiftable carriage was invented, they added shift keys which actually moved the whole carriage, then came Shift Lock, carriage return, Tab, etc... All these had to be added on around the outside of the existing layout so as to keep the layout "familiar", but instead of making the space bar smaller and putting them on the thumbs, they ended up on the left and right sides, operated by the pinkies. This practice continued in the electronic era, so now we have Esc, backspace, Ctrl, Alt, Win, Menu, etc also. Most of which we have to use pinkies for.

It's ridiculous how much legacy "junk" we put up with in the name of familiarity. Silly thing is that now our kids are learning to use this mishmash of unergonomic ad-hoc components, too. I think it's time for a change.

</end off-topic rant>
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sagii

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Re: WHY is the HHKB superior?
« Reply #99 on: Tue, 27 May 2014, 05:04:15 »
@Oobly okey, I guess you're right with the symmetry, but some are less asymmetrical than others ;)