Truly Ergonomic Communication - Aug 25 2011

[Keymonger]

You know what's funny, now that it looks like this thing is about to ship, I've lost interest because I'm working on a keyboard design myself. I don't regret the pre-order though but if it was $250 from the start I would've gotten the Kinesis Advantage instead.

[Input Nirvana]

You know what's funny, now that it looks like this thing is about to ship, I've lost interest because I'm working on a keyboard design myself. I don't regret the pre-order though but if it was $250 from the start I would've gotten the Kinesis Advantage instead.

Keymonger, I really have to poke you for some fun right now, ok?
Here it goes:
"Looks like this thing is about to ship" Please, please, PLEASE post something in response to that statement Really? Looks like it's going to ship? Come on, have a laugh and throw something out in addition to that statement, I just CAN'T let is sit out there!

Sounds like there should be a group buy for "Geekhacks Revenge" other forums make their own boards, why not? Start a wiki project page to go along with the custom controller project?

[Gerk]

It's this kind of customer support for new ergonomic keyboard startups that illustrates just how dead the ergonomic keyboard market is.

Anyway it should ping at least a bit.  It uses Cherry MX switches.

Yep no kidding.  

See my sig line:  "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping!"  (sorry Duke for ripping you off, but it was just too good to not use)

[Input Nirvana]

We'll have Ping! built into the spec, so people can complain if it DOESN'T Ping!

NOTE-The correct use of and notation of "Ping!" is only below:
 
Ping!  

Capital P, it's a proper noun on GH regardless of usage, and to be followed by an exclamation point, as that's part of the proper noun. Ex: (How the Ping! did Rapster know that?)

[Gerk]

Signature corrected

[Input Nirvana]

Thanks, I had to make a couple corrections myself (Ping! Nirvana and Ping!, California)

Whew! That was close, don't wanna get reported.

[Input Nirvana]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

(Attachment Link) 25175[/ATTACH]

Nice. I'm waiting to see if a few people want to do this thing. It won't happen tomorrow, but we can lay a foundation, spell out the intent, email the link to TE immediately.

[Input Nirvana]

Razer immediately rejects any and all product suggestions for legal IP reasons.

Wise policy on their part. I have nothing to suggest to TE at this point. I'm digging the idea of spending a couple hours setting up a "copy" framework with a sales price of $149 and having the link emailed to them.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

That would be suicide. Why not kill the *******s that come to us with their lies, bad intent, and misplaced priorities? I know I want to.

[hoggy]

All TE proposed items are off-the-shelf except:
1-case
2-wrist rest (optional)
3-2 or 4 keycaps
4-controller/firmware

This keyboard can be made in a week, with the exceptions of the 4 items listed above. The case (#1) and 2 or 4 keys (#3) can easily be improvised depending on how much someone wants to spend (Shapeways?). The controller (#4) it will depend on what features someone wants (HumbleHacker, Hasu?). So if people want a 90% TE board, we can make it. For gods sake, the damn thing is FLAT! Have switches from Mouser plate-mounted (or even switches TE did not propose), custom keycaps from WASD Keyboards, get the controller from one of the sources (with NO dip switches), and hand wire the thing like an $800 Maltron.

Then, TE can go screw themselves instead of screwing all of us. And if TE is really a legit company, they can come out of hiding and stop us.

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

PING!

Count me in.


You know, - if I wanted buy a TE, I'd rather wait until I could buy a second hand one.

[Input Nirvana]

Count me in.


You know, - if I wanted buy a TE, I'd rather wait until I could buy a second hand one.

At $250 for something that seems overpriced, and is an unknown, I agree.

Everyone, correct me if I'm wrong. The only items that are specific to the proposed TE, is the case, the 2 'chevron' shaped keys in the middle, maybe the 2 spacebars, and the controller/firmware.


NEED TO CONFIRM:
1-identify profiles of each keycap and quantity of each
*2-any custom keycap and possible replacements
3-decide on number of key layout (2 choices)
4-scale the proposed layout for replication
*5-consider case (how many do we need for a good price from Shapeways or equivalent?)
*6-consider controller (our GH custom controller project needs to proceed)
7-plate mounting (non-issue)
8-hand wire (non-issue)  

*= possibly different than the TE proposed board.

[sordna]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

(Attachment Link) 25175[/ATTACH]

Hold it right there, please make the columns standard, the rightmost column of the left hand should be 5TGB and the leftmost column of the right hand should be 6YHN, just like it is on the Kinesis, Maltron, TE, and TypeMatrix. It's no accident all straight column keyboards have this layout, let's not deviate from it. You not only put 6,Y,H on the left hand instead of the right (contrary to touch-typing protocol), the bottom row is off too, you put Z under S and V under G. It should be Z under A and B under G.

[sordna]

It's this kind of customer support for new ergonomic keyboard startups that illustrates just how dead the ergonomic keyboard market is.

You can't judge the ergo market by just one company. Look at Kinesis, I asked them about the possibility of making me a red mx keyboard, and they decided to make it a standard model. Not only that, I sent them the proposal in March, and had the actual keyboard in my hands in May. Not only that, the CEO of the company stepped in to contact me, thank me for the idea, and get everything lined up. How is that for customer support?

[Input Nirvana]

You can't judge the ergo market by just one company. Look at Kinesis, I asked them about the possibility of making me a red mx keyboard, and they decided to make it a standard model. Not only that, I sent them the proposal in March, and had the actual keyboard in my hands in May. Not only that, the CEO of the company stepped in to contact me, thank me for the idea, and get everything lined up. How is that for customer support?

Dang!
All I got was this lousy keyboard.

[iMav]

With every monthly communication, they push the shipping date out farther.  Since July's communication stated that they would ship the end of August, this communication represents another delay (announcing they are ready to start production).  

I have stuck with my pre-order and do hope it ships soon.  I certainly don't think it will supplant my Kinesis Advantage, but I am really curious to see how they turn out.

For completeness sake, here is the actual August communication:  

Manufacturing phase

We have finalized all steps involved in manufacturing the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in accordance with our design specifications.

As a result, we are happy to announce that we are about to manufacture your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard and that delivery will follow soon after.

Additional pre-orders

We continue to accept pre-orders until August 31st with the reduced price of $199 USD/CAD dollars or €149 euros.

The MSRP of $249 USD/CAD dollars or €179 euros will become effective after August 31st, 2011.

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is priced in line with its quality and specifications: a unique split–symmetric columnar key arrangement; a design which embraces the symmetric shape and neutral position of the human body; it is manufactured using gold-plated Cherry MX mechanical keyswitches; reprogrammable in firmware; the palmrest is cushioned and removable; it is truly comfortable; and it is Windows, Mac, and Linux compatible.

We estimate we will start accepting standard orders October 2011.

Blog

We created a new post in our Blog with the above information: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/blog.html#Tooling

Model change request

If for any reason you wish to change the Model you pre-ordered, simply reply to this email with the specifications of the Model you prefer:
 - Model 104, 105, or 109.
 - English US QWERTY, English International, or Blank Layout.
 - Silent (MX Brown) keyswitches or Light-click-sound (MX Blue) keyswitches.

There is no need for you to reply to this email to confirm your order. Reply only if you wish to change your pre-ordered model at no additional cost.

Delivery Address

We will send you and additional email to verify your delivery address information.

We thank you very much for your support during our pre-order manufacturing phase.

Regards,

The Truly Ergonomic team

[Input Nirvana]

A little transparency would go a long way, instead of a pat email.

"Geekhacks Revenge" will have a ship date soon as a few people jump in and put it together. We have WASD Keyboards, and some pretty good resources right here.

[Gerk]

With every monthly communication, they push the shipping date out farther.  Since July's communication stated that they would ship the end of August, this communication represents another delay (announcing they are ready to start production).  

I have stuck with my pre-order and do hope it ships soon.  I certainly don't think it will supplant my Kinesis Advantage, but I am really curious to see how they turn out.

Except with this communication they haven't said anything (at least directly) about when they expect to ship.  They infer that Oct is when they hope to have the production models in hand to take "regular" orders ... all of the previous emails (I've been around long enough now to have gotten 5-6 of them) have clearly stated "we expect to ship pre-orders ______" and given a specific month.  This time they have said nothing at all in that regard, at least not straight out.  Why, who knows?  Maybe they are tired of falsely predicting ship dates or they think they are jinxed because whenever they announce one they never hit their mark.

I'm in the same boat as you iMav, I stuck with my pre-order and I hope it ships soon.  I have an Advantage on the way too and I don't imagine that the TE will win for my needs ... but I've stuck it out this long and it's not like I don't have any other keyboards lying around doing nothing LOL ... the TE may join them once (if?) it arrives, or it may find a home on one of my other computer setups.

[Gerk]

A little transparency would go a long way, instead of a pat email.

"Geekhacks Revenge" will have a ship date soon as a few people jump in and put it together. We have WASD Keyboards, and some pretty good resources right here.

If we make it a split (i.e. 2 distinct pieces, not just the key layout), tent-able and non-staggered count me in for at least one

[Input Nirvana]

And...it doesn't matter if they quote a date since it has no relevance. And THAT my friends, is their fault.

My business works under contract. If we miss a date, I suffer liquidated damages. Maybe now you can see why this irritates me so much. And I didn't even buy a proposed board!

[Sam]

If we make it a split (i.e. 2 distinct pieces, not just the key layout), tent-able and non-staggered count me in for at least one

I would also very much like a 2-piece board, rather than a single piece.  I'd be in with either design, but to me having it be 2-piece is a huge, huge advantage.  It increases it's adjustability by magnitude.  I've never tried a tent-able board, so don't really have an opinion on that.  Not sure what you're referring to with "non-staggered" as that could mean very different things if you're referring non-staggered along the columns, or along the rows, or both.  I must have non-staggered along the columns (TE style), vs standard keyboards which are staggered along the columns.  Along the row, I don't care, either TE style (staggered), or a matrix style (non-staggered).

I would hope that there would be a choice of switches as well, with a mechanical tactile switch being one of the choices (such as Cherry Blues).  If it has Cherries, but not Blues, I'm probably not very interested, or perhaps if it came unpopulated, and I add the Blues myself.

Being these posts are buried in the TE thread, maybe it's time to start a new thread about this, to better gauge interest?  There's probably a lot of GH'ers who haven't even read this thread but would be interested.  Maybe a thread in the Group Buys with a new thread here linking to it?

[Input Nirvana]

Hi Sam!

Yes, it should be in a specific thread, but I think the controller/firmware issue needs to have a solid suggestion/direction/option, or it's dead in the water before it starts. We have a custom controller thread that will be converted to a wiki project once we come up with a good title that is web-searchable. One drawback (I'm giving myself way too much credit here) is that I'm not the person to make the firmware...I can't even contribute to the programming. I just know I want it to be as good as a Kinesis and add a couple features. But I still can't do it unless I can learn in the next 6 months somehow (I'm willing).

I want to spearhead this, but I'll admit my connections pale in comparison to the skills and connections others on this forum have access to. I can do it, but it will be 10 times easier and faster if someone else were the pointman for the controller/firmware. I have a high degree of interest, but I will be the one holding up the project if I'm responsible for the outcome of the programming feature.

[Sam]

I totally understand where you're coming from.  My only thought though is that if you get it into a new thread ASAP where it's very visible, then you may get people reading about it that could help you out, but who might not even know about it if it stays hidden in this thread.  Even if it dies before getting started, no harm done.  At least if more of the GH community read about it, it'll have a better chance of being revived in the future when someone(s) does come along with the expertise, time, and motivation to help out with the areas you cannot do yourself.

Also if you get more people interested in using such a keyboard, by getting the word out to more of the GH community, it might do more to spark interest in those who are technically capable of making it happen.  Not many would want to spend a lot of time to develop something that only a few people are interested in.  If a hundred people though are interested in it, the chances of someone being willing to devote their time to the project increases.

[Input Nirvana]

As always, you make too much sense Sam.

[hoggy]

Here's another keyboard that looks like a TE...
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25270[/ATTACH]
Edit: It's an ergo diver and no longer available

[Input Nirvana]

Mechanical? Programmable?
How much?

[Sam]

I found this regarding that board.

[slueth]

Its not mechanical.

[sordna]

I found this regarding that board.

Not impressed by the layout. TE seems much better. There's also the Datadesk Smartboard:



which I tried and didn't like at all.

[Input Nirvana]

There is another keyboard split design that is matrix-style on the right and staggered on the left. It escapes me now though. Seems very odd to me.

We just need to make the framework (custom programmable controller!) and anything else is easy.

[hoggy]

Sorry, should have posted the name...  Layout's good though.  Shame it's not sold anymore.

[hoggy]

There is another keyboard split design that is matrix-style on the right and staggered on the left. It escapes me now though. Seems very odd to me.

We just need to make the framework (custom programmable controller!) and anything else is easy.

Yogitype?

[sam_vimes]

Hi,

I'm waiting for 5 month now the release of the TE.
I didn't buy it yet, I was waiting for reviews.

Do you think I should not buy it (yet, at least)?

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

[Deofol]

If you want to get into ergo cheap, I would say just get a "Microsoft Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000". You can get them from around $35 on Amazon, and they work well enough (at least much better than a laptop), and would at least ease any pain you are currently having.

Then when the TE is released and you find the reviews satisfactory, then dive in. Or do both and just preorder now at the cheaper price, and cancel later if it goes south.

Its all a gamble, but at $35, I know the MS keyboard is a winner.

[sordna]

The TE is at $200 now, so the difference will only be $50 after the end of the month. It's not clear when the keyboard will ship, probably not before October. For $50 it would be worth to wait for the reviews, and avoid any risk about the keyboard not shipping, or shipping many months from now, or turning out to have problems. Frankly I would be worried to give out money to a company without a shipping product, and without an address, or phone number information. All they have is a bad track record regarding their communication, and fake reviews/testimonials on their website.

If you are in a hurry and want to save money, you could buy a used Kinesis, for example Input Nirvana has several for sale at $100 and up. Otherwise I would wait for actual TE reviews.

[redpill]

Yep I'm definitely content for someone else to be a guinea pig on this one.

[shrap]

TE does claim to have a 30-day money back guarantee from the date of delivery on their site.

However if the pre-orders are charged now and not at the date of shipping, you may lose the ability to leverage your credit card company to file a chargeback since too much time has passed.

[Lanx]

Hi,

I'm waiting for 5 month now the release of the TE.
I didn't buy it yet, I was waiting for reviews.

Do you think I should not buy it (yet, at least)?

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

imo, if your hurting now, stop that pain! trying to save money cannot save your joints no matter how old you are or how long you are using a keyboard that seemingly hurts you. Yes this sounds like a salesman scare tactic to buy now, but of course no one is selling anything here.
like many said if you want a good non mechanical keyboard, the microsoft ergo 4k is great.

if you really want a mechanical (and the benefits of mechanical vs. rubber dome) and you want ergonomic, tho i have no personal experience, i'd still just go ahead and recommend getting a kinesis, even though you'd have to learn how to type differently.

again no amount of money saving will help create more cartilage or lessen your RSI/carpal tunnel, you have to act now.

[jpc]

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

You sound like me last year. I thought that one new device would fix my hands.

lol -- I went through a LOT of input devices. And got better

Your hands need to last the rest of your life. Don't f*** around, fix your ergonomics right away. You don't have time to wait for vaporware like the TE, you may be injuring yourself more every day. If your hands hurt after two days without using the computer, you need a doctor immediately.

This is what worked for me...

Lifestyle:
 * Reduced coffee intake modestly.
 * Reduced computer use outside of work modestly.
 * Quit my awful job, got a much better one. I am still programming, just not at an insane stress level.
 * I'm less of a perfectionist. F*** up now and then and relax about it

Work habits:
 * Learned to touch type
 * Learned Colemak layout
 * I use the phone more and email less
 * Learned keyboard shortcuts. On UNIX I use the *awesome* window manager, which allows total keyboard control.

Medical:
 * Saw a Dr., he gave me two weeks of an NSAID and wrist braces to wear at night. Both helped. I still use the braces.
 * "The Mindbody Prescription" by John Sarno. Explains how psychological factors can cause pain and how you can remedy this. If you are stressed and angry a lot, read it.

Hardware:
 * Keyboard trays: you gotta be at the right height. Most desks are too high.
 * Kinesis Contoured: awesome keyboard, and a great way to learn how to touch type using the correct finger for each key. My daily drivers. You can get clean used ones for $100-ish.
 * Seat: found supportive, adjustable chairs.
 * Trackballs: the KEM and m570 are good.
 * The Contour Rollermouse is very good, I'll probably buy a 2nd.
 * Switches: Low force helps; 40-50g switches are easier than 65-80g switches like buckling springs. The Kinesis uses cherry browns, they are 45g with just enough tactility -- very comfy.

Things that DID NOT HELP AT ALL:
 * Model M SSKs. Yes the mouse is a few cm closer but you're still whacking on stiff switches. Shares the design flaws of any flat, staggered, rectangular board.
 * Siig Minitouch. Like Model M SSKs but with even worse switches (XMs.)
 * Alternate hand mousing. My left hand hurt soon after switching to it.
 * CST trackball. It's wrist-rest-resistant, the ball is heavy, the buttons are heavy, the scroll wheel has a bad location.
 * QWERTY hunt-and-peck encourages you to hit the keyboard too hard, with large muscle movements. (Touch typing on Colemak is night-and-day different: it's all small muscle movements, low impact, and as low force as your switches allow.)

It's worth the effort. The sun will rise one day and you won't be thinking about pain!!

[hoggy]

sam_vines -

Some good advice from jpc there.

Take frequent breaks - drinking more water will create natural breaks.
Take control of your desk at work (having control will make you feel better - buy your own stuff)
 get several new keyboards (we'll help you pick - the kinesis advantage is worth trying)
 get several new mice - there are a few vertical mice out there you might want to try
 swap often once you've got used to the device.
If you play games - just stop for a while.
Reuse more of your work - I program for a living so I now most of my programming is copy and paste from my code library and a bit of plumbing to get it to work.
Macros - no one cares if you type (or not) to get the job done.  Learn either autohotkey or macro express.

jpc - I started with the wrist braces, but now I use kinesio tape - does much of the same work without restricting the movement of the joint.  Of course everybody's different.  The best thing about the braces is that people take your condition seriously - otherwise it could be a case of "well, you look okay..."

[jpc]

I'll second all of that. Buying my own gear for work was a smart move-- this gives you the flexibility to move it between home and work, and to sell it.

[sam_vimes]

Hi,

Thanks for all these advices.

(I forgot to say it last time, but please, excuse my english, I'm french)

Deofol :
The microsoft Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000 doesn't seem really good. The key for the left hands are not placed correctly (like almost every keyboard...)

sordna :
You're right, I won't buy it now. I didn't for these last 5 month, I shouldn't surrender now!^^
I looked at the keyboard of Input Nirvana, I need more thinking.

Lanx :
For now, it doesn't hurt that much, if it start to hurt (not every day), I need to take many little breaks and this is better. Actually, it doesn't hurt since I came back for my holidays but I prefer prevention. I don't have the carpal tunnel syndrome, it looks more like tendonitis
And yes I'm young and don't have a lot of money
I never had a mechanical neither tried one so I don't now and I don't want to spend money if it's not useful.

jpc and hoggy
Does tea can be wrong?
I would like to learn the bépo, it's like dvorak (or colemak) for french people. But I would like to learn it on my own keyboard, a good one.
Actually, I will modify the bépo because it's not make for programming people (or for those you write english sometimes).
I will see a Doctor, you're right, it might help and will read "The Mindbody Prescription", it can't hurt (I hope! ^^)

I know that my desk is too high - or I'm too short - (and my screen too low, I work on a macbook...) and if I still work at my current job in two month I will buy a good chair. I really can't invest money if I loose my job.
I can't find what is KEM.

I'm really interest in vertical mice, it seems to be more natural.

I would reuse my code if could do it but for now it's not : I'm just starting and do things without relation.

The kinesis seems to be really good. All the kinesis are programmable, right?
Is it designed for people with big hands?
I'm a girl and small so...

No one talk about the typematrix it's not a good one? (it has good reputation in the bépo community)

Anyway, thank you very much for your answers.

[kps]

* Trackballs: the KEM and m570 are good.

What's a KEM trackball? Google is unhelpful.

[jpc]

Some Kinesis are programmable, not all. I have a programmable Kinesis and a non-programmable one. I map everything in software, so they each work just as well.

Yes, KEM is Kensington Expert Mouse.

Welcome to Geekhack!

[jpc]

In moderation, I don't think coffee or tea are a problem.

[kps]

Some Kinesis are programmable, not all. I have a programmable Kinesis and a non-programmable one.

Non-programmable Kinesiseses can be made programmable with the insertion of a 60˘ EEPROM.

Yes, KEM is Kensington Expert Mouse.

Thanks. I tried an ADB one long ago, but never got the hang of it. Maybe I'll dig it out and try again.

[sordna]

I think the Essential is the only one not programmable. The others I know of: Model 110/120/130, Ergo Elan, Classic, Professional (PS/2), and all of the USB ones (Advantage, Advantage Pro, Advantage LF) are programmable.

[jpc]

Thanks. I tried an ADB one long ago, but never got the hang of it. Maybe I'll dig it out and try again.

Oh! There are more than one product called the Kensington Expert Mouse. There's the v5 (older, beige, available in ADB or serial or PS2) and the v7 (newer, dark gray, USB)

I have the v7.

[shrap]

You can't be too picky when it comes to ergonomic devices, nothing is every going to be perfect.

Sometimes it is clearly better. Sometimes your body can adjust. Sometimes the new thing is worse. But at least you're trying something and not doing the same thing hoping it will "go away". Cause it will not.

[Gerk]

If you're not already using one for your macbook you should consider something like the M-Stand or a similar type stand (there are a lot of them like this), or at least get your macboook up to a good height when you are using it.

http://raindesigninc.com/mstand.html

[sordna]

Cardboard box or copy paper works fine to prop a laptop. Anything you can do to have the screen high enough, and a real keyboard low enough will be a huge ergonomic improvement.

[Gerk]

Also even if your desk is not the right height, adjust your chair to match the height of the desk for typing.