TOS Comments and Suggestions

[samwisekoi]

Last night I actually read the TOS.  It kind of, well, explains things.

Main: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39249.0
Buy/Sell: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=31625.0

This thread is for comments and suggestions.

Also, I started the thread, and would like it to stay on-topic.  Please.

Anyone who is interested in how this place works and could work better, please those two posts and provide suggestions here.

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[samwisekoi]

Reserved to gather common thoughts and suggestions.

So far...
1) No turning people over to the cops for marijuana.
2) No draconian⁽¹⁾ moderation.
3) No deleting posts for aesthetic reasons.
4) No asserting copyright of postings beyond an assumed right to use and quote.
5) Allow threadcrapping⁽²⁾ in threads where the OP doesn't object.


(1) Draconian:

Describes a punitive measure/punishment that is overly harsh in relativity to the crime or transgression. Normally done for the purpose of making an example for others to deter them from doing the same. Also issued out of fear/anger by an authority.
After Colombine, an elementary school principal was criticized for doling out a year's suspension to a student who used a toy pistol while playing cops and robbers. Many say that the punishment was draconian and reactionary on the part of the principal.

(2) Threadcrapping:

Thread crapping occurs when a person comes into a thread and posts something contrary to the spirit/intent of the thread, often derailing the discussion or turning it into an argument.
Coming into a thread titled "I love my new Apple Macintosh!", and posting "PCs are better and cheaper" is thread crapping.

[WRXChris]

Yikes after reading the rules no wonder this place has become like an elementary school busride, with safety patrols and all.  I especially dont like that appreciating marijuana is considered an illegal activity, and any discussion of illegal activities will be turned over to the authorities...  NarcHack?

Anyways, i'm done contributing to discussions around here.  If the mod team is going to be so draconian then ill use the forum for what they've let it become, nothing but a marketplace.

[jdcarpe]

Finally, GeekHack Administrators and Moderators reserve the right to delete posts that do not violate the TOS in an effort to clean up a thread.

Really? Now we are deleting posts for aesthetic reasons?



Also, I like this crap here:

All messages posted on the GeekHack Forums become the copyrighted property of GeekHack.org.

I don't think so, bub. Original works are copyrighted by the author, not the publisher. You can't have my ideas just because I use your forum to express them. I will give you permission to use them for the purposes of quoting, etc.

[Alessandro]

I'm not sure what happened with all these bans last night but I can tell it's been building up with all the discussion threads going on. I still agree with threadcrapping and you're more than welcome to do it to me if you please.

[samwisekoi]

I'm not sure what happened with all these bans last night but I can tell it's been building up with all the discussion threads going on. I still agree with threadcrapping and you're more than welcome to do it to me if you please.

Question for clarification: what about long posts that turn into off-topic debates in one of your marketplace threads?

Assuming they aren't otherwise prohibited (e.g. advocating murder) do you think they should be:
(a) Allowed for your marketplace threads?
(b) Not allowed for your marketplace threads?
(c) Allowed for your marketplace threads until and unless you want it stopped and make that request?

[jdcarpe]

I reread the buy/sell rules, and actually the new rules don't have a prohibition on threadcrapping per se.

1) Conflict resolution: <font color="red">CAVEAT EMPTOR. Moderators will not step in to mediate transactions gone bad. BE CAREFUL WHEN BUYING/SELLING ON THIS FORUM! We accept no liability and will provide no services to buyers or sellers short of providing a forum for member to member transactions. We highly encourage buyers and sellers to reference their own feedback ratings (heatware, ebay, etc), and we highly encourage users to refrain from buying from or selling to anyone but senior members with a proven track record buying, selling and/or trading. <font color="red">CAVEAT EMPTOR: WE ACCEPT NO LIABILITY FOR LOSSES RELATED TO OR RESULTING FROM POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR FOR ANY TRANSACTION RESULTING FROM A POSTING IN THIS FORUM.

The old rules prohibited it, but the new ones don't.

[samwisekoi]

I reread the buy/sell rules, and actually the new rules don't have a prohibition on threadcrapping per se.

The old rules prohibited it, but the new ones don't.

Should they once again, in your opinion?  Also, do you have an opinion re my multiple choice question to Alessandro?

Thanks!

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[jdcarpe]

No, I don't think we need a prohibition on threadcrapping. If it were my sales thread, and people were debating off topic, I would simply ask them to start a new thread to continue their conversation, or to please limit their discussion to questions or comments about the items being sold. Negative comments should be addressed by the OP, same as positive ones. If your prices or terms of sale cannot stand a bit of scrutiny by the membership at large, you're probably doing something shady.

The only posts which should be moderated, in my opinion, are personal attacks or violations of the TOS, such as spam, trolling, obscenity, etc.

[Alessandro]

I'm not sure what happened with all these bans last night but I can tell it's been building up with all the discussion threads going on. I still agree with threadcrapping and you're more than welcome to do it to me if you please.

Question for clarification: what about long posts that turn into off-topic debates in one of your marketplace threads?

Assuming they aren't otherwise prohibited (e.g. advocating murder) do you think they should be:
(a) Allowed for your marketplace threads?
(b) Not allowed for your marketplace threads?
(c) Allowed for your marketplace threads until and unless you want it stopped and make that request?

A. I don't mind. As I've said before, there's only a line crossed when the entire thing becomes a never ending stream of 'personal' attacks on the seller.

[longweight]

GH is changing fast so this is a worthwhile discussion, I don't mind moderation and welcome the mods cleaning up threads to remove stuff that the OP doesn't want in the FS thread.


Obviously just my opinion.

[Alessandro]

I'm glad we're finally able to have these discussions in a separate thread instead of the whole thing happening over multiple FS threads ect. Doing this has allowed for much better discussion and I for one am thankful for that.

[rowdy]

GH is changing fast, with dozens of new members every week.  I don't count posts, but how many actually stick around and contribute?  If they join, see some threadcrapping and personal attacks, how likely are they to stick around?  If GH has a clearly defined policy for handling unpleasant situations, everyone would probably feel safer.

Second, when the TOS changes, how do we know which bits have changed?  I noticed it changed this morning, but don't know which bits have changed.  Maybe a changelog, or perhaps a brief separate post in the thread to explain what has changed.  WHen my bank changes their terms and conditions, the letter usually highlights the new or revised condition, then they print the full T&C on the following pages.

[samwisekoi]

GH is changing fast, with dozens of new members every week.  I don't count posts, but how many actually stick around and contribute?  If they join, see some threadcrapping and personal attacks, how likely are they to stick around?  If GH has a clearly defined policy for handling unpleasant situations, everyone would probably feel safer.

Second, when the TOS changes, how do we know which bits have changed?  I noticed it changed this morning, but don't know which bits have changed.  Maybe a changelog, or perhaps a brief separate post in the thread to explain what has changed.  WHen my bank changes their terms and conditions, the letter usually highlights the new or revised condition, then they print the full T&C on the following pages.

Good points, and IMHO we should try for a higher standard of transparency and honesty than the freakin' banks have shown us.  Your bank is better than mine.

I'm glad we're finally able to have these discussions in a separate thread instead of the whole thing happening over multiple FS threads ect. Doing this has allowed for much better discussion and I for one am thankful for that.

That was totally my hope.  There are good ideas being posted elsewhere, but (again, IMHO) this is a better place to discuss and perhaps resolve the issues.

To the both of you:  How do we balance "Sure, come at me, I can take it, I'm the OP" with the (I think real) risk of scaring potential solid community members off?  I personally am not going to cry if somebody posts that my Elvish Keys are stupid bits of useless profiteering junk.  But what about the kid who really, really wants them and then is scared off by the comments?  Or worse, asks his dad, and his dad says "woah, stay away from that site!"

How do we encourage a rich, spicy brew without burning the tongues out of the people who might be just starting out?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[jdcarpe]

I was new here once. And this was pre-W0RM days, we're talking. When ripster was still around days. I know, I'm still a newb compared to some of the old-timers here. But I managed to navigate the waters. They will learn, and that's also the point of us established members being able to say something in the thread that would serve to enlighten a new member, who may have otherwise dropped down his cash without being fully informed.

As long as there are helpful people here who are willing to mentor the new members, I think we will be alright. ripster used to do that often, I recall, when your question wasn't one that could be easily answered by simply doing a Google search or browsing through the (then-extensive) wiki.

There will always be some of the other kind, with their acid tongues ready to slash, but it takes all kinds to have a free and open forum.

[rowdy]

Same here (pre-r00tw0rm as well).  I have been flamed, too, but it turned out to be a misunderstanding, and everyone was happy.

And I am still here.

I am old enough to know that you should't take personally things that you read on the internet, or in a forum.

Most of the conversations are civil and helpful, and where necessary the community can be very supportive of other members - I have seen this a couple of times.

So maybe we do just need someone to stop in and stop things when arguments get personal (which should be taken off the forum), or people do get really way too far off topic.

[daerid]

Bringing this here per request from PM

There is a freakin' fine line between public disclosure and embarrassing somebody

That is a great point. The decision to punish a member of the community is not one to be taken lightly (not that I'm suggesting it was).

I look at it like this: GeekHack (indeed most online communities, with some notable exceptions) is usually self-policing. We're all mainly a bunch of well meaning keyboard enthusiasts, and for the most part, we act very civilly towards each other. However, when an individual fails to restrain himself from actions that harm others or the community, then it is up to the group (specifically those in leadership positions in that group) to take action. But you do usually want to leave the door open, especially for those who have proven valuable in the past.

Most of us are adults, and I'd assume that as such we realize that people will make mistakes, and at times will have to be disciplined for those mistakes. Unfortunately, in a community/society of any size, the specifics of those mistakes are rarely known to all the members. So what happens is we see that the leadership has brought down the hammer on somebody, and we don't really know why.

Most people react to that and immediately assume that somebody has abused their power. Admins have three options at that point:

1. No disclosure
2. Full disclosure
3. Partial disclosure

#3 is really the only viable option here. However, there's no way to put any kind of system or set of rules in place really for determining what amount of disclosure is needed. It has to be taken on a case-by-case basis, and really thought about. On one hand, for a community like this to thrive in the long run, its members need to trust that the admins will be fair. On the other, most of the time there are details as to what happened that aren't really pertinent and do nothing other than ruin somebody's reputation and chances for re-integration. And honestly, there will always be a sizable portion of the community that doesn't care.

So that's the problem. What's the solution?

I don't really know honestly. It's really the same problem humanity has always had, and to a degree always will: government.

The only thing I can think of is that the admins, after deciding to discipline a member, really think about the effect that it will have, and if it's a particularly controversial action, for example because the member is a popular one, that they come up with some sort of statement that explains the basic reasoning behind the action, but also  preserves that member's dignity and ability to re-integrate into the future.

Sure, this won't please everyone. There will always be people who point and shout that it's an abuse of power. But I think it would go a long way towards preserving the trust and goodwill towards the admins that is needed for GH to survive in the long run.

PS: Sorry for the length of the post. I have a tendency to get on a soapbox at times and get into lecture mode.

[jeroplane]

No, I don't think we need a prohibition on threadcrapping. If it were my sales thread, and people were debating off topic, I would simply ask them to start a new thread to continue their conversation, or to please limit their discussion to questions or comments about the items being sold. Negative comments should be addressed by the OP, same as positive ones. If your prices or terms of sale cannot stand a bit of scrutiny by the membership at large, you're probably doing something shady.

The only posts which should be moderated, in my opinion, are personal attacks or violations of the TOS, such as spam, trolling, obscenity, etc.

This is my view exactly.

To the both of you:  How do we balance "Sure, come at me, I can take it, I'm the OP" with the (I think real) risk of scaring potential solid community members off?  I personally am not going to cry if somebody posts that my Elvish Keys are stupid bits of useless profiteering junk.  But what about the kid who really, really wants them and then is scared off by the comments?  Or worse, asks his dad, and his dad says "woah, stay away from that site!"

How do we encourage a rich, spicy brew without burning the tongues out of the people who might be just starting out?

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Show Image

I think if new members are being scared off by comments in sale threads, then they are not really cut out for an online forum such as ours. And there is a distinction between constructive "thread-crapping" and useless comments. A post saying "these keycaps look stupid and useless" should be removed by a moderator. However, a post saying "I do not like this set personally, and I think the price should be at least $10 less" should be allowed. Sure, there is a fine line, but that is where the moderators will learn with time to recognise what should be allowed and what shouldn't.

In the end, I think constructive comments about the worth or quality of items should be allowed and they will undoubtedly be more useful to newer members rather than scaring them off. More experienced members know how much a particular Clack usually sells for in the Marketplace, for example, but it takes time for newbies to learn how the market works here. The allowance of discussions within sale threads will help to educate them in this respect rather than act as a deterrence.

[reverkiller]

From what I've seen, the kind of people who hang out in the commerce seciton of GH (group buys included) tend to be the type who are ready and willing to spend money. Almost every single new person I've seen post has been ready to throw their money at people, which is sort of encouraged at GH (It is hard to gain clout without building trust, and the easiest way to build trust is to participate in trades and group buys successfully. There are lots of people who have accomplished gaining respect without simply buying their way in, but for everyone of them there are probably 3 or 4 people who showed their diligence to keyboards by simply purchasing things). I don't think anyone who is interested in dropping $50+ on a keyset for a keyboard (which many people balk at) is likely to be scared away by one person saying "this is stupid and a waste of money!" Just my two cents.

[samwisekoi]

Thank you all.  Please keep talking; we are very much listening.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[IPT]

For those who apparently have a problem with the no drug talking rule I have to ask, why?  Why do you feel its necessary to share your stories about gettkng high? Or mentioning you're getting high, or any stories about getting high? Do you somehow need to validate the usage of drugs? Or are you trying to impress someone with it? Its a keyboard forum, why does this type of discussion need to be done? If it was a lifestyle forum then yeah I can see why you would bring it up. Personally I can see why the admins/mods don't want this type of talking. if they're trying to expand the community, they dont need to have these types of controversial topics

[rknize]

Thanks for the constructive feedback so far, guys.  Keep it coming.

[Leslieann]

As a successful forum(s) owner (for well over 10 years)...

Guys, the rules read draconian to protect the site. When they need to ban someone they need something to point to and say "THIS is why". You have to have the rules in place for when they are needed and to give people an idea of what the rules are.  However, this doesn't actually mean they have to rule with an iron fist. The best way to describe it is speeding on the highway. The speed limit may say 55mph, but a large percentage of drivers are doing 60mph, if you notice, the cops are not busting all of them, but when you get caught doing 80mph, they can point at the sign and say you knew the rules.

A good moderation team knows when to let things slide and when to hit hard. Sometimes you need to let a good regular fudge the rules a little, sometimes they need a little reminder, and sometimes they simply are no longer worth the effort. Sometimes things get too far out of line and you need a sacrificial lamb to set things right.


Most of the time, you can tell how good a job the mod team is doing by how little you notice their work, unfortunately, this also makes them invisible, until something bad does go down. As such, it's a difficult, tireless and very thankless job and not everyone can handle it. So in that vein, thanks!

[rowdy]

From what I've seen, the kind of people who hang out in the commerce seciton of GH (group buys included) tend to be the type who are ready and willing to spend money. Almost every single new person I've seen post has been ready to throw their money at people, which is sort of encouraged at GH (It is hard to gain clout without building trust, and the easiest way to build trust is to participate in trades and group buys successfully. There are lots of people who have accomplished gaining respect without simply buying their way in, but for everyone of them there are probably 3 or 4 people who showed their diligence to keyboards by simply purchasing things). I don't think anyone who is interested in dropping $50+ on a keyset for a keyboard (which many people balk at) is likely to be scared away by one person saying "this is stupid and a waste of money!" Just my two cents.

This.  A lot of new members start out by saying "I'd like to find a set of blank white PBTs for my new Filco", and someone replies with "Have a look in classifieds".  So the new member does, and buys things probably without realising the true value, or whether they can get them cheaper elsewhere.  Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

A good moderation team knows when to let things slide and when to hit hard. Sometimes you need to let a good regular fudge the rules a little, sometimes they need a little reminder, and sometimes they simply are no longer worth the effort. Sometimes things get too far out of line and you need a sacrificial lamb to set things right.

And this.  I haven't been around here anywhere near as long as some people, but when a regular member disappears it does raise eyebrows, and usually questions.  Especially if the final offending post/s are deleted.  OTOH the moderators should not have to justify themselves to members.  The rules are there, everyone should be familiar with them, if only a passing familiarity.  Most are common sense.

[Krogenar]

I figured I should read the TOS, seeing as how I have agreed to abide by them and all.

Finally, GeekHack Administrators and Moderators reserve the right to delete posts that do not violate the TOS in an effort to clean up a thread.

Yeah, that makes sense to me; that sounds like exactly what Mods are supposed to do; keep things neat and tidy.
 

GeekHack reserves the right to remove/ban any user, at any time, and for any reason.  A temporary ban of 7 days will follow two warnings for the same type of infraction. Moreover, GeekHack takes no responsibility for the content of any of the messages posted on our Forums or of the authenticity of its authors.  We reserve the right to edit and/or delete any posting for any reason and without prior notification or explanation to the author.  Moderators and Administrators frequently review forum messages for those that are in violation of the rules. Any messages found to be in violation may be deleted without warning or explanation.

I'm good with all of that -- you're basically saying that GeekHack is a benevolent dictatorship (I don't mean that in a negative way, democracies are messy) and laying out your own rights. Meet it head-on and don't pretend to be some hippie commune.

And also please refrain from starting a thread or posting about any banned member as it isn't allowed.

I can see why the Mods and Admins would want to do this, to avoid the drama and get back to moderating, etc. -- but it would probably be better to let people talk about it, so long as they remain respectful. Making someone who was banned forbidden is just making them into even more of a martyr. It just seems a bit petty.

As for the Sales Section, I've been reading a lot about how people feel about 'threadcrapping'; some are for it, some against it. I still think free and open comments in sales threads are fine, so long as they are not trolling, abusive, etc. I think it might be a good idea to draw up some examples of what constitutes a good sales comment, and what amounts to a warning-worthy abusive comment. Give people some explicit examples of how to respond. How's about this:

PROBLEM: Someone with just over 50 posts (or whatever the minimum number of posts required to post in Classifieds) has just posted a WTS ad for something that they purchased for $50, and are now selling for $150, or some other price that you consider grossly inflated.
ACCEPTABLE: "Just so everyone knows, those keycaps were available a year ago in my groupbuy for about $65. Here's the link: ..... "
ACCEPTABLE: "Wow. That price seems pretty steep."
UNACCEPTABLE: "Capitalist $%@#$% ... price-gouging! Don't buy from this guy he's a scam artist!"
*** There should be some way to rate good and bad sellers, so that those comments can be seen. That way people cannot just flame others without a record being in place.

PROBLEM: You think someone is selling something that is obviously broken, missing parts, etc. and suspect that they are not being honest about the condition of the item.
ACCEPTABLE: "Can you show us photos of the sticker on the back? That usually shows the Date of Birth, etc."
UNACCEPTABLE: "Stop lying and show us the sticker on the back."

PROBLEM: Someone is selling something that you think is a bad product.
ACCEPTABLE: "I had a pair of those headphones and had nothing but problems with them. Check the reviews on Amazon, I think that model had a problem."
UNACCEPTABLE: "Those headphones are crap, my something-something brand is far less derpy. Go buy these instead."
UNACCEPTABLE: "Your painted keycaps are super fugly d00d, LOLZ!"
ACCEPTABLE: "These painted keycaps look a little uneven to me in the photo. I can see the brushstrokes."

I know it seems really simple to just ask people to strip the insults, name-calling and e-peening out of their comments, but I think they need concrete examples.

[samwisekoi]

Thanks for the input and examples. Re the prohibition on wakes, please note that while they are technically not permitted, they have often been allowed for exactly the reasons you've stated. Rioting, looting, flame-wars, and nastiness will cause quick enforcement.

 -Ron | samwisekoi

[mkawa]

I'm good with all of that -- you're basically saying that GeekHack is a benevolent dictatorship (I don't mean that in a negative way, democracies are messy) and laying out your own rights. Meet it head-on and don't pretend to be some hippie commune.

hippie commune? i like to think of this place as an anarcho-socialist collective that's so disorganized that it can't manage to implement any semblance of either.

[Krogenar]

I'm good with all of that -- you're basically saying that GeekHack is a benevolent dictatorship (I don't mean that in a negative way, democracies are messy) and laying out your own rights. Meet it head-on and don't pretend to be some hippie commune.

hippie commune? i like to think of this place as an anarcho-socialist collective that's so disorganized that it can't manage to implement any semblance of either.

  DENNIS:  I told you.  We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune.  We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
  ARTHUR:  Yes. (slightly annoyed)
  DENNIS:  But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting.
  ARTHUR:  Yes, I see.... (annoyed)
  DENNIS:  By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
  ARTHUR:  Be quiet!
  DENNIS:  --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
  ARTHUR:  Be quiet!  I order you to be quiet!
  WOMAN:  Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
  ARTHUR:  I am your king!
  WOMAN:  Well, I didn't vote for you.

 

[rknize]

It seems we have neglected this discussion, so I'm posting here to bump this thread.   

We are going to update the posted classifieds rules and are looking for feedback.  Thanks!

[guilleguillaume]

The problem with GH Classifieds is that it is allowed to mute anyone that says something related to the user price. If you're selling something for a price it isn't worth it, people is going to warn everyone who enter the thread just because it is not fair to try to hide the information from the buyers so the seller can make real profit from the sale.

The Classifieds are not for hiding information from users so the seller can make even more money. This shouldn't be accepted in a forum like Geekhack.

[aggiejy]

I have to agree personally... it seems excessive to not allow discussion of the price at all.  Of course, it obviously gets out of hand if some whazoo comes in and says "OMG, YUR CRAZY... IM SELLIN THIS FOR 82% OF THIS IN MY THREAD <LINK>HERE</LINK>".  But even with that stuff, I think it's fair for people to comment on the prices in a constructive manner.  In the end, people can list it for whatever they want, and if someone wants to buy it they can.  Yes, perhaps truly overpriced items might not sell as quick with some warning in the thread, but protecting only the seller's interest isn't good.

[jabar]

No private auctions/PM offers.

Tighter vendor control. Keep vendors out of classifieds.

No censorship in threads outside of obvious abuse of seller/potential buyers/items being sold.

[jabar]

So, since there has been no reply/response/activity from the recent comments received, what is really being done?

I hope vendor activity in classifieds and group buys is addressed.

[rknize]

Working on TOS is boring, but the wheels are turning.    A new version will be posted for comments once it is ready.

[Binge]

No auctions for private sales.  People should be able to link their ebay auctions in "great finds" but nothing in classifieds.  Any auction thread needs to be non-profit for the thread starter... like fund raiser etc stuff is still great for instances it is used for good and not complete hype driving evil.

[AKIMbO]

No auctions for private sales.  People should be able to link their ebay auctions in "great finds" but nothing in classifieds.  Any auction thread needs to be non-profit for the thread starter... like fund raiser etc stuff is still great for instances it is used for good and not complete hype driving evil.

+1....private auctions are bad imo.

[jdcarpe]

Please, for the love of Geekhack, no auctions.

[The_Beast]

No private auctions/PM offers.

Tighter vendor control. Keep vendors out of classifieds.

No censorship in threads outside of obvious abuse of seller/potential buyers/items being sold.

Why keep vendors out of the classifieds? Same question about GBs?

[Goodfella]

Please, for the love of Geekhack, no auctions.

+1

[jabar]

Why keep vendors out of the classifieds? Same question about GBs?

The entire spirit of group buys is to provide a service without the intent to profit. Vendors can distribute the startup costs across the group buyers to help reach a MOQ where they can minimize the cost of excess kits for their business to sell. There are no controls to prevent them from doing so.

Classifieds itself has this subtitle: "member-to-member buy/sell/trade. (no commercial sales)". How can we know that vendors' classifieds aren't ultimately commercial sales?

Vendors have a privileged position here with the amount of community influence/support they receive. They have their own subforums. Keep them out of member groups buys and member-to-member sales.

[Krogenar]

Why keep vendors out of the classifieds? Same question about GBs?

The entire spirit of group buys is to provide a service without the intent to profit.

I don't know if that's the explicit definition or rule at GeekHack, jabar. (enjoying the Ducky with MX Greens you sold me, thanks again!)

Should it be the rule? With respect, jabar, I don't think so.

Vendors can distribute the startup costs across the group buyers to help reach a MOQ where they can minimize the cost of excess kits for their business to sell. There are no controls to prevent them from doing so.

Yeah, this is what techkeys is doing with the 'turtle power' and 'lotus' groupbuys, and I think it's a clever way to get a new product to market. As for there being no controls to prevent this arrangement, I think the community (the market) is good enough already. I've bought a lot of stuff from Boiler, and I trust him. That trust was earned.

Classifieds itself has this subtitle: "member-to-member buy/sell/trade. (no commercial sales)". How can we know that vendors' classifieds aren't ultimately commercial sales?

I would feel more confident buying from a vendor (because of an expectation of greater scrutiny from the community and a presumption of competence) than from an independent member with whom I have no experience. So to me it's more of a mis-classification -- posting something in the wrong area. Full disclosure, I am typing on a keyboard purchased from jabar. I can say with certainty that my transaction with him went very, very smoothly. He packaged the keyboard very well and we both agreed upon the price. I would buy from you again, jabar, because I've got some experience with how you do things.

Vendors have a privileged position here with the amount of community influence/support they receive. They have their own subforums. Keep them out of member groups buys and member-to-member sales.

Crazy idea, but, maybe GHers are privileged to have access to some of these vendors? Maybe they'll go to another forum and offer specials and deals exclusive to those forum members? We wouldn't want that -- let GeekHack remain (or grow to become) the destination for keyboard-related things. All I'm saying is it's a two-way street; interest in mechanical keyboards and their accessories are exploding right now -- that demand isn't going to go away if we push vendors away. Why should a vendor be excluded from managing a groupbuy? If I trust that the person running the groupbuy is competent and offering the product at a price I'm willing to pay, where's the problem? Is it the fact that they might also be making a profit? What's the benefit of banning vendors from member-to-member sales? I don't even see how you could effectively do it. All it would take is a PM, or a phone call -- and the transaction will still take place. GH mods and admins won't ever have the power (or even the time) to prevent a businessperson from buying something for themselves on the side, or for their own business. Why outlaw something you're not likely to be able to stop, except for appearance's sake?

I agree with vendors generally avoiding member-to-member sales. It looks bad if they buy something from you for $100 and then mark it up to $300 on their website. But you could easily state in your sales thread that you won't sell to a vendor. And if it looks bad to do this sort of thing, vendors should be aware that they must appear fair; and I think the good vendors are already well aware that even the appearance of price-gouging is bad for their business. The vendor labels that were just instituted force people to decide if they're doing this as a hobby, or as a business; I think that's probably good enough.

I completely agree with labeling vendors as vendors -- that's transparency, but let's treat our vendors as assets -- they help us bring new products into existence. That in itself is worth them making a profit. I think we should let the community as a market decide which vendors deserve our business. If vendors treat us poorly (price, product quality) then we vote with our dollars.

As for vendors being involved with groupbuys, I think it just improves the experience and should not only be allowed, but encouraged.

[samwisekoi]

So, since there has been no reply/response/activity from the recent comments received, what is really being done?

Really?  Every vendor now has a badge and a special Vendor Terms of Service.  (And stars, for good or ill.)

We are reading, watching, posting proposals and making changes based on feedback.

So please don't mistake lack of a specific response to a post or three for inaction.

 - Ron I samwisekoi

p.s. Ducky with GREENS?  I missed the memo!  Time to rationalize another keyboard...

[SpAmRaY]

So, since there has been no reply/response/activity from the recent comments received, what is really being done?

Really?  Every vendor now has a badge and a special Vendor Terms of Service.  (And stars, for good or ill.)

We are reading, watching, posting proposals and making changes based on feedback.

So please don't mistake lack of a specific response to a post or three for inaction.

 - Ron I samwisekoi

I want to say thanks to sam, rkinze and the other mods and admins for actually taking time to work on this.

A lot of forums just wash their hands completely of sales, vendors, etc, etc and at least hear we are getting some transparency and guidelines.

[lowpoly]

Old thread, sorry.

All messages posted on the GeekHack Forums become the copyrighted property of GeekHack.org.

So, if I post let's say an 'idea' in 'making stuff together' then it's not mine anymore after that?

I don't know what's the intent behind this but I think it should be rephrased in a way that doesn't sound as it does now. I think it's the word "copyrighted" that irritates me.

[Krogenar]

Old thread, sorry.

All messages posted on the GeekHack Forums become the copyrighted property of GeekHack.org.

So, if I post let's say an 'idea' in 'making stuff together' then it's not mine anymore after that?

I don't know what's the intent behind this but I think it should be rephrased in a way that doesn't sound as it does now. I think it's the word "copyrighted" that irritates me.

I think the idea is still yours (should you manage to bring the idea to market, copyright or trademark it, etc.) but the message itself belongs to GeekHack. Which means you cannot demand that the message be taken down. If you were to propose a new keyboard that allows users to teleport, GH wouldn't own that idea (or the specific plans for it) but only your postings about it, that are posted on GH.

At least, that's how I read it.

The last time this was a major issue was when Ripster was around -- he made a lot of posts that a lot of people found very useful. After his breakup with GH he may have decided all his postings here were to be deleted, and that's probably the source of this rule.

[lowpoly]

The last time this was a major issue was when Ripster was around -- he made a lot of posts that a lot of people found very useful. After his breakup with GH he may have decided all his postings here were to be deleted, and that's probably the source of this rule.

This was my guess too. I think the "copyright" rule should be rephrased in a way reflecting this, and at the same time avoiding speculation about intellectual property.

[Lanx]

that is the best way to phrase it, and also what many forums adopt after they have had their own ripster mess to clean up.