Author Topic: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2  (Read 94604 times)

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Offline XUR

  • Posts: 14
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #300 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 02:13:24 »
The clandestine and delinquent updates, odd refusals when pressed to show proof, 1+ year timeline, the "manufacturer's fault" and boat narrative, buying a CNC machine midway through to all of the sudden make some (all) of the keyboards in-house, not buying the PCBs until the last minute and realizing fitment issues, locking down the Discord server, constantly voicing about overwork (definitely not from getting the orders in for these keyboards)... what more proof is needed that ****ery is going on here.

Offline CaravanOfPikies

  • Posts: 4
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #301 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 09:47:52 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=113408.0

Looks like we found the rest of the tops from the boats.

Offline dottt

  • Posts: 14
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #302 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 09:55:54 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=113408.0

Looks like we found the rest of the tops from the boats.

It hurts to see those shipping 3-4 weeks from order date and I can confidently say I won’t have a rukia in my hands in 3-4 weeks. I would have refunded when I could but I’ve already committed to the rukia between wrist rests and theming based on the Alu top

Offline jtangjt

  • Posts: 6
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #303 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 12:20:23 »
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=113408.0

Looks like we found the rest of the tops from the boats.

this looks better in so many ways
- stainless steel is pretty nice,
- 3-4 week delivery,
- cheaper by 80 bucks,
- includes carrying case,
- actually exists.....

Offline KneeDeep

  • Posts: 27
  • Location: Durham, NC
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #304 on: Fri, 18 June 2021, 13:14:41 »
jaxxstatic — Today at 2:51 AM
Non-update:
PCBs incoming.
~1/4 of the way through re-finishing (sandblasting) bottoms. Material has been removed.
Will give an ETA when it can be anywhere close to accurate.

Just so everyone not on discord can see this. Just happened 9 minutes ago

Nah, he said the fitment issue wasn’t the PCB, the case was wrong

I don’t quite understand jaxx’s latest update. Material has to be removed from bottom portion of the case? I though Gondo in June 1st states there was no PCB fitment issues. Am I not understanding correctly? Seems like contradictory information.

The PCB and case were designed with a specific set of components in mind - the USB port, capacitors, resistors, sockets, LEDs, etc.
PCBs take a lot less time to do than the cases so they're normally done later in the process to avoid tons of stock sitting around for months.
Obviously prototypes are made first to test fitment, but thanks to the global component shortage some of those components were no longer available when it came time to manufacture the PCBs, and the available replacements were a slightly different size so the cases had to be reworked to accommodate.

The other option would have been to leave the cases untouched and wait till the component shortage was resolved, but that could take another year.
Reworking the cases for the different components is the most expensive option, but it gets everyone their boards sooner.

in that case, it doesn't make sense. he also said that the cases didn't fit existing Alice PCBs on the market. Which doesn't add up with him blaming the component shortage leading to different sized components. it's just to buy time to get the cases made probably.

Yeah the facts don't add up to me and I'm really tired of feeling like I'm being lied to. I still remember reading updates and being excited for rukia to ship before Thanksgiving, and then Christmas 2020. But we find out this month that he never even ordered PCBs!

So that was a lie, right? Was every update we received last year just fake news? Did the boat rukias even exist?

I get that the pandemic caused delays. Delays are forgivable. But dishonesty towards customers is such a slap in the face.

My favorite part was getting dragged on the Discord for asking questions about the fugazi answers we were getting on status updates. Doesn't seem like we will ever get the truth, but hopefully these boards deliver at some point.

Offline LiTurk

  • Posts: 31
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #305 on: Sat, 19 June 2021, 15:40:15 »
Hay but at less there was a update

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Posts: 553
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #306 on: Mon, 21 June 2021, 10:22:02 »
Ok so, Gondo update again.  ;D

I have thoroughly checked with suppliers and fabs and as far as they can tell, all components but the MCUs are well available and easy to find.

The MCU itself is the problem. Due to the shortage, getting your hands on hundreds of those has gotten pretty difficult. My idea was to check with suppliers if any variant (*) was better available or cheaper, but it turns out all variants are highly priced, yet available, so I just decided to leave the PCB as it is.

This has been communicated to Jaxx.

If you guys just wanted the update, that is it. The PCB files are "good"-to-go (or at least as "good" as good gets) as they are in terms of availability and possible cheapest price attainable.

If you want more detailed information, read below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*) Nerd time

As of right now, the ARM MCUs QMK can confirmedly use are STM32:

- F072
- F103
- F303
- L072
- F411
- F401
- G431
- G474
- L433
- L443

Each of these having a plethora of sub-versions (pin number, packaging, thermal range, military use etc), some of them having up to eight sub-versions -- as you can imagine this makes choosing and sourcing them in multiple suppliers a logistic nightmare, specially so in this pandemic. I've spent the past three weeks talking to vendors and suppliers digging some version that would be available and cheap. Mind you, some of these models are a straigh out overkill for a keyboard PCB (floating point unit and high-resolution ADC in a keyboard kek) but hey, if they work, they work. As it turns out, pretty much all of them are triple- to quadruple- the normal price, so I decided to go with the cheapest one (F072) which the PCB already uses and, albeit the heightened price, can be obtained by the fabs in the hundreds. Some of them also require additional components to work (for instance USB pull-up or termination resistors, external EEPROM, crystal) which should not be expensive per se but will make the PCBs a couple dollars more expensive due to a more complicated design, additional parts, additional solder joints and so on.

The problem now resides in Jaxx's capability to, well, prototype and make the PCBs. The big problem is that GB prices considered normal pricing for the PCB, but that situation has changed due to the higher price for the PCB components and services -- effectively making Jaxx work with an income deficit there which is completely out of my power unfortunately. I have done everything in my power, as the PCB designer, to make this go forward.

I will take questions in my Discord PMs. Please be kind.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 June 2021, 10:36:09 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline PandaMech

  • Posts: 4
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #307 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 13:19:52 »
Ok so, Gondo update again.  ;D

I have thoroughly checked with suppliers and fabs and as far as they can tell, all components but the MCUs are well available and easy to find.

The MCU itself is the problem. Due to the shortage, getting your hands on hundreds of those has gotten pretty difficult. My idea was to check with suppliers if any variant (*) was better available or cheaper, but it turns out all variants are highly priced, yet available, so I just decided to leave the PCB as it is.

This has been communicated to Jaxx.

If you guys just wanted the update, that is it. The PCB files are "good"-to-go (or at least as "good" as good gets) as they are in terms of availability and possible cheapest price attainable.

If you want more detailed information, read below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*) Nerd time

As of right now, the ARM MCUs QMK can confirmedly use are STM32:

- F072
- F103
- F303
- L072
- F411
- F401
- G431
- G474
- L433
- L443

Each of these having a plethora of sub-versions (pin number, packaging, thermal range, military use etc), some of them having up to eight sub-versions -- as you can imagine this makes choosing and sourcing them in multiple suppliers a logistic nightmare, specially so in this pandemic. I've spent the past three weeks talking to vendors and suppliers digging some version that would be available and cheap. Mind you, some of these models are a straigh out overkill for a keyboard PCB (floating point unit and high-resolution ADC in a keyboard kek) but hey, if they work, they work. As it turns out, pretty much all of them are triple- to quadruple- the normal price, so I decided to go with the cheapest one (F072) which the PCB already uses and, albeit the heightened price, can be obtained by the fabs in the hundreds. Some of them also require additional components to work (for instance USB pull-up or termination resistors, external EEPROM, crystal) which should not be expensive per se but will make the PCBs a couple dollars more expensive due to a more complicated design, additional parts, additional solder joints and so on.

The problem now resides in Jaxx's capability to, well, prototype and make the PCBs. The big problem is that GB prices considered normal pricing for the PCB, but that situation has changed due to the higher price for the PCB components and services -- effectively making Jaxx work with an income deficit there which is completely out of my power unfortunately. I have done everything in my power, as the PCB designer, to make this go forward.

I will take questions in my Discord PMs. Please be kind.

Thank you for detailed update and efforts.

Are you saying Jaxx’s hasn’t picked or settled on a MCU? Is the MCU sélection the one causing him to have clearance issues?

Then again he has already stated that he has started to rework the bottom case by removing material. I would think this action started because he already decided which MCU to use as shaving off material without locking down a MCU seems risky.

As you mentioned all other components are readily available.

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Posts: 553
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #308 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 16:13:18 »
Ok so, Gondo update again.  ;D

I have thoroughly checked with suppliers and fabs and as far as they can tell, all components but the MCUs are well available and easy to find.

The MCU itself is the problem. Due to the shortage, getting your hands on hundreds of those has gotten pretty difficult. My idea was to check with suppliers if any variant (*) was better available or cheaper, but it turns out all variants are highly priced, yet available, so I just decided to leave the PCB as it is.

This has been communicated to Jaxx.

If you guys just wanted the update, that is it. The PCB files are "good"-to-go (or at least as "good" as good gets) as they are in terms of availability and possible cheapest price attainable.

If you want more detailed information, read below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*) Nerd time

As of right now, the ARM MCUs QMK can confirmedly use are STM32:

- F072
- F103
- F303
- L072
- F411
- F401
- G431
- G474
- L433
- L443

Each of these having a plethora of sub-versions (pin number, packaging, thermal range, military use etc), some of them having up to eight sub-versions -- as you can imagine this makes choosing and sourcing them in multiple suppliers a logistic nightmare, specially so in this pandemic. I've spent the past three weeks talking to vendors and suppliers digging some version that would be available and cheap. Mind you, some of these models are a straigh out overkill for a keyboard PCB (floating point unit and high-resolution ADC in a keyboard kek) but hey, if they work, they work. As it turns out, pretty much all of them are triple- to quadruple- the normal price, so I decided to go with the cheapest one (F072) which the PCB already uses and, albeit the heightened price, can be obtained by the fabs in the hundreds. Some of them also require additional components to work (for instance USB pull-up or termination resistors, external EEPROM, crystal) which should not be expensive per se but will make the PCBs a couple dollars more expensive due to a more complicated design, additional parts, additional solder joints and so on.

The problem now resides in Jaxx's capability to, well, prototype and make the PCBs. The big problem is that GB prices considered normal pricing for the PCB, but that situation has changed due to the higher price for the PCB components and services -- effectively making Jaxx work with an income deficit there which is completely out of my power unfortunately. I have done everything in my power, as the PCB designer, to make this go forward.

I will take questions in my Discord PMs. Please be kind.

Thank you for detailed update and efforts.

Are you saying Jaxx’s hasn’t picked or settled on a MCU? Is the MCU sélection the one causing him to have clearance issues?

Then again he has already stated that he has started to rework the bottom case by removing material. I would think this action started because he already decided which MCU to use as shaving off material without locking down a MCU seems risky.

As you mentioned all other components are readily available.

Jaxx is not the one choosing components. I am; and as far as I have concluded, by talking to suppliers and fabs, the best option we have right now is use the components that the PCB currently already uses, according to criteria like price and availability. The MCU issue is not mechanical, it's about price and availability, so no, it's not the MCU causing clearance issues.

As others have stated in this thread, and this was confirmed by Jaxx himself, the clearance issue is not with my PCB, but with third-party Alice PCBs (like projectkeyboard's or mechlovin's); in other words, the case was not designed to support those. This lack of support presents itself as a clearance issue with thei PCB components. According to Jaxx, in the mechlovin's, that's a capacitor and, on PK's, the connector. How the man is addressing that is not something I can supervise or control because the PCB I was hired to design fits the original case design (in the 3D models at least). I can't comply to, or offer support for, products I have not designed.

The next step in the PCB design process os confirmation of working and fitment, which is only achievable through completely built prototypes (completely built as in with all components, switches and stabilizers) tested against the case and plate. Last we heard he is remanufacturing the case bottom.



« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2021, 16:22:02 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline shieldmending

  • Posts: 8
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #309 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 18:11:43 »
Thanks Gondo for the transparency on your end. So at this point, is Jaxx modifying the cases to fit 3rd party PCBs? Would these modifications risk the compatibility with the PCB you designed with the original Rukia case files?
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2021, 18:14:15 by shieldmending »

Offline dottt

  • Posts: 14
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #310 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 18:30:21 »
Ok so, Gondo update again.  ;D

I have thoroughly checked with suppliers and fabs and as far as they can tell, all components but the MCUs are well available and easy to find.

The MCU itself is the problem. Due to the shortage, getting your hands on hundreds of those has gotten pretty difficult. My idea was to check with suppliers if any variant (*) was better available or cheaper, but it turns out all variants are highly priced, yet available, so I just decided to leave the PCB as it is.

This has been communicated to Jaxx.

If you guys just wanted the update, that is it. The PCB files are "good"-to-go (or at least as "good" as good gets) as they are in terms of availability and possible cheapest price attainable.

If you want more detailed information, read below.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*) Nerd time

As of right now, the ARM MCUs QMK can confirmedly use are STM32:

- F072
- F103
- F303
- L072
- F411
- F401
- G431
- G474
- L433
- L443

Each of these having a plethora of sub-versions (pin number, packaging, thermal range, military use etc), some of them having up to eight sub-versions -- as you can imagine this makes choosing and sourcing them in multiple suppliers a logistic nightmare, specially so in this pandemic. I've spent the past three weeks talking to vendors and suppliers digging some version that would be available and cheap. Mind you, some of these models are a straigh out overkill for a keyboard PCB (floating point unit and high-resolution ADC in a keyboard kek) but hey, if they work, they work. As it turns out, pretty much all of them are triple- to quadruple- the normal price, so I decided to go with the cheapest one (F072) which the PCB already uses and, albeit the heightened price, can be obtained by the fabs in the hundreds. Some of them also require additional components to work (for instance USB pull-up or termination resistors, external EEPROM, crystal) which should not be expensive per se but will make the PCBs a couple dollars more expensive due to a more complicated design, additional parts, additional solder joints and so on.

The problem now resides in Jaxx's capability to, well, prototype and make the PCBs. The big problem is that GB prices considered normal pricing for the PCB, but that situation has changed due to the higher price for the PCB components and services -- effectively making Jaxx work with an income deficit there which is completely out of my power unfortunately. I have done everything in my power, as the PCB designer, to make this go forward.

I will take questions in my Discord PMs. Please be kind.

Thank you for detailed update and efforts.

Are you saying Jaxx’s hasn’t picked or settled on a MCU? Is the MCU sélection the one causing him to have clearance issues?

Then again he has already stated that he has started to rework the bottom case by removing material. I would think this action started because he already decided which MCU to use as shaving off material without locking down a MCU seems risky.

As you mentioned all other components are readily available.

Jaxx is not the one choosing components. I am; and as far as I have concluded, by talking to suppliers and fabs, the best option we have right now is use the components that the PCB currently already uses, according to criteria like price and availability. The MCU issue is not mechanical, it's about price and availability, so no, it's not the MCU causing clearance issues.

As others have stated in this thread, and this was confirmed by Jaxx himself, the clearance issue is not with my PCB, but with third-party Alice PCBs (like projectkeyboard's or mechlovin's); in other words, the case was not designed to support those. This lack of support presents itself as a clearance issue with thei PCB components. According to Jaxx, in the mechlovin's, that's a capacitor and, on PK's, the connector. How the man is addressing that is not something I can supervise or control because the PCB I was hired to design fits the original case design (in the 3D models at least). I can't comply to, or offer support for, products I have not designed.

The next step in the PCB design process os confirmation of working and fitment, which is only achievable through completely built prototypes (completely built as in with all components, switches and stabilizers) tested against the case and plate. Last we heard he is remanufacturing the case bottom.

The only thing I’m confused on now is that Jax’s last update said PCB’s incoming but this seems like they’re not yet confirmed

Offline thanatic

  • Posts: 75
  • Location: CA, USA
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #311 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 18:50:16 »
Still quite confusing as to what PCB we are going to get? reworking the cases to get another PCB that we did not original agree to purchase. We purchased knowing that the PCB will be the Gondo PCB with its design and features. Dunno... it is what it is I guess..

Offline Gondolindrim

  • Posts: 553
  • Location: Gondolin
    • My GitHub
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #312 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 19:03:34 »
Still quite confusing as to what PCB we are going to get? reworking the cases to get another PCB that we did not original agree to purchase. We purchased knowing that the PCB will be the Gondo PCB with its design and features. Dunno... it is what it is I guess..

The only thing I’m confused on now is that Jax’s last update said PCB’s incoming but this seems like they’re not yet confirmed

To be 100% transparent, the rates with which I get updates is the same as you guys and for some things I am just as in the dark. I have no idea what the incoming PCBs are but I can confirm no prototypes of my PCB were made yet, to my knowledge. Maybe that's what the incoming PCBs are?

Also as far as I am aware the PCBs shipping with cases are the ones I designed. It would be kind of a **** move if they were not because I have waived the upfront PCB design costs for Jaxx with the promise he'd pay all commission plus design fee after the GB
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2021, 19:05:30 by Gondolindrim »
A pessimist will tell you the cup is half empty. An optimist will tell you the cup is half full. An engineer will tell you it's exactly twice the size it needs to be.

Offline thanatic

  • Posts: 75
  • Location: CA, USA
Re: [GB] Rukia - polycarb - round 2
« Reply #313 on: Tue, 22 June 2021, 19:31:42 »
Still quite confusing as to what PCB we are going to get? reworking the cases to get another PCB that we did not original agree to purchase. We purchased knowing that the PCB will be the Gondo PCB with its design and features. Dunno... it is what it is I guess..

The only thing I’m confused on now is that Jax’s last update said PCB’s incoming but this seems like they’re not yet confirmed

To be 100% transparent, the rates with which I get updates is the same as you guys and for some things I am just as in the dark. I have no idea what the incoming PCBs are but I can confirm no prototypes of my PCB were made yet, to my knowledge. Maybe that's what the incoming PCBs are?

Also as far as I am aware the PCBs shipping with cases are the ones I designed. It would be kind of a **** move if they were not because I have waived the upfront PCB design costs for Jaxx with the promise he'd pay all commission plus design fee after the GB

Thank you Gondo for bring some light to the matter and reduce some anxiety that some of might be experiencing. Appreciate it. I hope that you get paid and everything works out for all parties.