I've seen the word "Dvorak" pop up a few times on this forum in regards to wanting keycaps for it on group buys (I think that's what it was, anyway). Up until about 2 minutes ago I thought it was a different language. Apparently I was completely wrong, and its just another keyboard layout. I'm curious about it, though. How many people on this forum actually use it? Is it actually more efficient? Are there other alternate layouts besides Dvorak and QWERTY? I understand that you wouldn't be able to just change the position of a normal set of keycaps to the Dvorak setup because the letters are sized for different rows, but for blank keycaps is there anything that would prevent a perfect switch to Dvorak? If someone who could touch type Dvorak were to type on my blanks, would there be any difference between that and a set made specifically for the layout? How readily available are Dvorak caps?

I just find this really interesting. I can definitely understand why there's a clam to QWERTY's inefficiency. Typing some of the letters definitely can be awkward. I'd be really interested to hear from people who have learned Dvorak in regards to how long it took to learn, as well as how much more (it at all) efficient it really is.

Also, I guess gaming would be a ***** ey? You'd have to rebind every key in every game - right?

EDIT: When I went to add a keyboard language (just to see if Dvorak was an option) I saw Dvorak, Dvorak for left hand, and Dvorak for right hand. Any idea what the "for left / right hand" is?

EDIT: When I went to add a keyboard language (just to see if Dvorak was an option) I saw Dvorak, Dvorak for left hand, and Dvorak for right hand. Any idea what the "for left / right hand" is?

IIRC August Dvorak designed a keyboard for one-handed typing as well.

Anyway, check out the somewhat comprehensive list at Wikipedia, although it's far from perfect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#Non-QWERTY_keyboards_for_Latin_scripts

please remove my post

Only crazy people would learn Dvorak now.  Colemak or one of the newer layouts are MUCH better for computers

Dvorak is not the only alternative layout. Colemak, Workman, Arensito and several others are also available.

1. Colemak/Dvorak users are all touch typists, so legends on the keycaps don't matter. You can keep using the Qwerty keycaps.

2. For easier switching progress, Colemak is better since it has 10 common keys (QWAHZXCVBM) with Qwerty. The good thing is that you can do select all-copy-paste-cut with hotkeys as you've done it before.

3. All alternative layouts are about 30% more efficient in term of time travel than Qwerty. The maximum speed will remain the same or 5-10wpm faster, but you can type longer without being tired.

4. For games, you can always return to Qwerty by using a simple hotkey for a game session. It takes about 0.3 second. Rebinding is not necessary at all.

5. Blank keycaps is not necessary but just a nice option that makes the switching easier, since you will get rid of the bad habit of looking at your keyboard while typing.

6. You can switch to any layout in about 2 months, and you will reach maximum speed in about 6 months.

You can read my Colemak switching experience (day-by-day) here
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=970

For anyone who don't know what Colemak layout is, here is a picture

There are a lot of alternative layouts out there, all of which are roughly similar in terms of calculated efficiency (and all a good deal better than QWERTY).

BUT, they differ in terms of what they are optimised for. Dvorak and Colemak are currently the most popular for various reasons. Here is a brief analysis of both:

Dvorak:
1. Old layout, designed before computer analysis.
2. Designed for hand and finger alternation when typing English as opposed to finger "rolls".
3. Has all the vowels on the left hand home keys.
4. Has the most common characters on the home row (U is an exception).
5. Spreads the load evenly between fingers.
6. Doesn't keep shortcut keys in the same positions as QWERTY and is very different in general from QWERTY.

Colemak:
1. New design, analysed by computer for maximum efficiency in terms of finger distance.
2. Designed for inward "rolls" of the fingers when typing English words.
3. Has most of the vowels on the home row.
4. Has the most common characters on the home row (with U positioned more in line with it's frequency of use).
5. Loads the index fingers more than the others.
6. Keeps ZXCV in the same position as QWERTY and has more similarities to QWERTY.

Personal issues with each layout (please note that though I point out facts about each layout, how each affects the typist is personal):

Dvorak:
1. Letters "U" and "L" are in awkward positions.
2. Overloads the pinkies, but not too badly.

Colemak:

1. The factors used in the analysis don't suit how I type. Finger travel distance is not the most important factor in typing efficiency, IMHO.
2. Inward finger rolls don't suit me, although they probably do suit most others. I find outward rolls more comfortable. I find alternation even better, though.
3. Overloads the index fingers. I prefer a more even distribution, although with less load on the pinkies than Dvorak.
4. TOO similar to QWERTY. I prefer a layout to be very different, so I can learn it without affecting my QWERTY skills during the learning period. This is important if you use a keyboard for your work. Similarity can create confusion in your muscle memory during the transition and even afterwards. You may be required to use QWERTY layout now and then after you have learnt your new layout.

So, it's up to you to decide what factors are more important for you and learn whichever layout matches best. Personally, I put off learning a new layout until I got my DIY keyboard made, since the physical layout is even worse than the character layout in terms of ergonomics, but that's another story.

So, I went for a layout optimised for my new physical layout and the factors that matter to me, AdNW BU-Teck modified for English only. It focuses on alternation, common chars on home row, short finger travel, modern analysis with different weighting on each finger, etc. Optimised for keyboards with staggered vertical columns (instead of horizontal) and thumb keys clusters. Here is a heatmap for it with "Gulliver's travels" as a source:

Dvorak is better than Colemak for other languages since all the vowels are on the left hand home row. Makes it more universal.

Of course you may be able to find a version modified specifically for your language since it has been around a long time. You can find some here: http://programandala.net/en.article.2009.10.26.dvorak_layouts

Some links are dead, but the majority should still work. AdNW is designed primarily for a mix of German and English typing, I think Neo is also.

yeah ok but colemak was clearly created for more efficiency in english, and i'm just wondering if this applies also for dvorak?

No, Dvorak favor the right hand (15% to the right hand according to Carpalx). Colemak is more balanced with only 6% to the right hand. Check it here
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?colemak

Colemak - detailed statistics

Colemak makes even greater use of home row (74%) than Dvorak (71%). This leaves QWERTY's 34% far behind. Bottom row use is low at 9%, like Dvorak.

Colemak is more balanced in hand use, with a 6% preference for the right hand (Dvorak has 14% for the right and QWERTY 15% for the left).

Cumulative run statistics for Colemak are worth looking at. The rhl(0) and rhr(0) are nearly both 50% (0.55 and 0.49, respectively). This means that half of the time successive keystrokes use the same hand and that this characteristic is symmetric with respect to the left and right hands. In other words, Colemak is very good at maintaining hand alternation for both hands. Consecutive uses of the home row is also favourable in Colemak, with 85% of runs having a length of <=5 strokes (compare this with 4 strokes for Dvorak and somewhere between 1-2 strokes for QWERTY).

Both Colemak and Dvorak make greater use of the pinky. Colemak uses the pinky 16% of the time (18% for Dvorak and 10% for QWERTY). Colemak does a good job at loading the stronger fingers (index and middle) and uses them 67% of the time. This is better than Dvorak which uses these fingers 60% of the time, but not as good as QWERTY which uses them 69% of the time.

What layout most approach for my language?
This and This

whilst modern ergonomic layouts rely too much on naive computer analysis, thus looking better in theory than in practice.

yeah,i like your quotes

Also, I guess gaming would be a ***** ey? You'd have to rebind every key in every game - right?

EDIT: When I went to add a keyboard language (just to see if Dvorak was an option) I saw Dvorak, Dvorak for left hand, and Dvorak for right hand. Any idea what the "for left / right hand" is?

Almost every game that I own is wired to the key locations, not the key itself. Therefore, when I started League, I was delighted to see all the hotkeys in the same physical location, and the skills already on '',.p' rather than QWER. Same with all of my EA games, Maplestory, etc.

Dvorak also made some layouts for people using only one hand on the keyboard.

EDIT: Didn't see that you'd like some opinions.

Dvorak has so far been much more efficient for me. There are problem words, I grant you, but they are rather few and can be mitigated. Until recently, I typed 'paper' with the index finger on 'P', which bent my hand inward in a bad angle and made accuracy difficult (typing 'people' quickly was very difficult as well), but I learned to use my middle finger in that case, and now there are very few words which are uncomfortable to type. I personally really like the alternation, as my accuracy has improved greatly because of it, and I can type very lightly at a speed faster than Colemak because two hands are always faster than one, despite the ease of using di- and trigraphs.

What layout most approach for my language?
This and This

I don't know, I have no real knowledge of that language. You can try putting a large amount of text of the kind you want to type into the box on this site and click "See which layout is best".

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main

The personalized layout will be generated from the character frequency in the text.

Quote from: mapple on Mon, 02 December 2013, 05:59:13

what do you think about using dvorak for different language than english?

Id say it depends heavily on the language. I dont speak many languages, just english and several of what I consider proto-english languages (german/norwegian/etc). For the proto english languages Ive actually used enough to warrant enabling them on my keyboard, they work fine in dvorak and are typically just one or two keys away on the same row... off the top of my head
water/wasser/vann/vesi (english german norsk finnish) (not that I consider finnish to be anything like english outside of the similar alphabet)
for the german the S is two keys to the right of T
for the norsk the V is 1 key right of W and N is one Key right of T
for finnish the V is one key right of W, E is two keys right of A, S is two keys right of T, and I is two keys right of E

In german IIIRC the umlaut was somewhere on the right side of the keyboard making it a bit cumbersome to hit AltGr+umlaut
On norwegian setting, I think I just stuck with german and googled "norwegian a" when i needed chars like  æ, ø and å

That was my experience as an english speaker living/working/communicating in those languages. If it were my primary language, Id think some keys would definitely need to be shuffled around especially the A and J for finnish. Put the A on an index finger since every finnish word seems to have at least 4 As and at least 1 Ä. (eg majavanaamaa or mielialalääkkeistä) lol

Finnish is definitely an interesting case. It uses vowels more than any other language. "J", "K" and "P" are used more than in English, too. "C" is very rare. It's quite hard to optimise for, since there are so many used combinations of letters that you'll inevitably have a few "bad"  combinations (hard to type) on practically any layout. Plus you have to add in Ä and Ö and some way to type Å, although it's not used much.

This is my Finnish layout for columnar style boards (ignore the symbol characters, they're not where they should be and Å should be on AltGr of Ä):

Quote from: Oobly on Mon, 02 December 2013, 09:19:56

That's interesting.. Whenever I compared them using various books, sets of code, etc, Dvorak comes out left hand heavy (although less so than QWERTY), even using books that are in the Carpalx corpus.

Don't include the thumb, which is always the left thumb to press space. You can always add the total percentage use of each finger in each hand in Patojk keyboard analyzer to make sure.

Ah, that may be what's skewing the results.

its too diffucult for me to learn a new layout.
I grew up with ANSI , And i will die using ANSI

Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. Alternative layouts are not for everyone but less than 1% of population.

Switching your layout is really hard in the first month, but the reward is permanent in your life. You can touch type properly with all the most frequent keys right under your fingers, not mention ergonomic, relaxing feel that will make your typing a tad easier.