[IC] Currently unnamed split adjustable ergonomic Topre keyboard

[attheicearcade]

Some of you may have come across my long running project on deskthority: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/designing-a-custom-topre-board-t11734.html. To summarise, I have been attempting to (and so far successfully) make a split hand, adjustable column ergonomic keyboard that supports Topre switches through my custom electronics. The electronics are coming along nicely along with the firmware, here are the controllers:



They use Teensy 3.1/3.2 boards.

I just want a quick check to find out how many people might be interested in buying the keyboard before I go spending too much money, which is also why I haven't build a full keyboard yet. I will be getting select parts to further test electronics and the manufacturer capability.

The case parts (no electronics or switches) will likely be around £100 given a batch of 100, made in the UK. The electronics price depends on if I get the PCBs fully populated or just sell the blank circuit boards (both from China), the first will be more expensive than the second, but you'll have to do a fair amount of soldering. But you will need to solder anyway after building the columns.

The case should also be compatible with more standard MX style switches, in a more typical custom keyboard setup (full hand wiring).

If you're interested, please post the particular variant you'd be interested in: (2x Teensies not included, you'd also need a Topre / clone keyboard for switches if you want Topre)

• £100 - Just the case (for MX)
• £130 - Case and blank PCBs (you'd need to spend a fair amount on components)
• £200 - Case and assembled electronics

Note that any of the prices could be completely wrong. The case price is based on quotes from manufacturers for 100 keyboards, but the electronics is based on component cost which I had to pay + conjectured assembly price. I'm trying to be conservative, I don't want the price to go up in future.

[suicidal_orange]

Love the look of these!

Do you have a list of components so we can see whether assembly is worth it?  Have you considered a kit to get price breaks for buying lots of the same components?  Unless the other side of the PCBs are really busy it looks like a relatively small sorting job.  I nearly volunteered but will wait for a full list )

Also is that MoQ for 100 pairs or 100 halves?  People are always looking for gaming pads, these are analogue so would be perfect...

[Loligagger]

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

[suicidal_orange]

Have you thought about tenting for the case?

That's what makes this 'case' awesome - each column can slide nearer or further away to adjust stagger, and each can be raised or lowered which is essentially tenting.  Note the slots wherever you see a bolt

[Loligagger]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

[attheicearcade]

Do you have a list of components so we can see whether assembly is worth it?  Have you considered a kit to get price breaks for buying lots of the same components?  Unless the other side of the PCBs are really busy it looks like a relatively small sorting job.  I nearly volunteered but will wait for a full list )

There aren't that many components, I suppose it would be best to offer the electronics as a kit which could be soldered (if assembly price is too high). I don't have prices for assembly though. I'll put together an electronics component list - the controller and firmware will both be open source.

Also is that MoQ for 100 pairs or 100 halves?  People are always looking for gaming pads, these are analogue so would be perfect...

That's for 100 pairs, I hadn't really thought about game pads, but they are totally possible. The case halves share all pieces but one (the thumb plate is a mirror image).

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time
The base is not final - but I really want to get hold of the keyboard before I make any more changes (re: tenting). I was hoping that there is enough adjustability in the columns to make up most people's (fairly small) tenting needs, but I really need to actually have one in front of me to make a decision. I'm going to be quite stubborn with the layout for now, just to limit the scope (or it will never get made). The good thing is that it's pretty modular and individual parts are not to expensive (unless you're buying lots of different bits), so there is potential for changing parts / adding things without having to buy a whole new keyboard in future.

That's what makes this 'case' awesome - each column can slide nearer or further away to adjust stagger, and each can be raised or lowered which is essentially tenting.  Note the slots wherever you see a bolt

Actualy, I'm not sure if I read this or assumed it...

This is correct, I hadn't made that clear: there are crossed slots at every bolt point, wherever there is a bolt there are 2 translational and 1 rotational degree of freedom. Of course you are limited to certain ranges of motion thanks to interference with other parts etc, but I am hoping it's enough.

[Gatix]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

[suicidal_orange]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

(Attachment Link)

That's why I said essentially - you can lower the edge columns and raise the inner ones for a similar effect.  Wouldn't go as steep as that pic though, and wouldn't work if did as you'd be pressing off centre...

There are slots under each column so you could easily screw in some supports?

[Loligagger]

Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?

Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time
The base is not final - but I really want to get hold of the keyboard before I make any more changes (re: tenting). I was hoping that there is enough adjustability in the columns to make up most people's (fairly small) tenting needs, but I really need to actually have one in front of me to make a decision. I'm going to be quite stubborn with the layout for now, just to limit the scope (or it will never get made). The good thing is that it's pretty modular and individual parts are not to expensive (unless you're buying lots of different bits), so there is potential for changing parts / adding things without having to buy a whole new keyboard in future.

Makes sense. If it means I can get my hands on this board quicker I don't mind going with topre first then waiting for an MX controller. A parts kit (or at least a BOM) would be nice, since I don't mind soldering the components myself.

Edit: What about calling it the SPACE keyboard? Split-hand Adjustable Column Ergonomic keyboard.

[attheicearcade]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

A very old column prototype:



It has changed a lot since then, but that shows the idea. Just push them into the plates from below, and use the PCBs to hold it all together with fasteners. The newer design has press fit threaded studs built into the column itself, as opposed to bolts fitting into tapped holes (this is much cheaper).

Edit: It is worth adding that the dome sheet will need to be cut into squares.

[attheicearcade]

By tenting I mean angling it like this:

(Attachment Link)

That's why I said essentially - you can lower the edge columns and raise the inner ones for a similar effect.  Wouldn't go as steep as that pic though, and wouldn't work if did as you'd be pressing off centre...

There are slots under each column so you could easily screw in some supports?

You can angle the columns along their long axis to get a "cup" shape keywell, so you aren't pressing off centre. But I doubt it could go quite as tilted as that picture. Supports might be possible, I think I'd rather go for some tenting mechanism around the base to make wiring less messy. Not sure though!

Makes sense. If it means I can get my hands on this board quicker I don't mind going with topre first then waiting for an MX controller. A parts kit (or at least a BOM) would be nice, since I don't mind soldering the components myself.

Here is the BOM for a single controller. Also need: some normal insulated wire for the strobe lines, UMCC coax cables for the sensing lines and corresponding connectors for the column end connection. Some bits are still to be tested though, this could change.

Edit: What about calling it the SPACE keyboard? Split-hand Adjustable Column Ergonomic keyboard.

That is better than any name I have come up with (which would be none). Consider it at the top of my potential name list 

[Gatix]

I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?

A very old column prototype:

Show Image

It has changed a lot since then, but that shows the idea. Just push them into the plates from below, and use the PCBs to hold it all together with fasteners. The newer design has press fit threaded studs built into the column itself, as opposed to bolts fitting into tapped holes (this is much cheaper).

Edit: It is worth adding that the dome sheet will need to be cut into squares.

Just to clarify, you mean you'll be able to provide the case? We just need to provide a slider and a dome in order to use topre?

[xondat]

Dropping in to say this is ****ing amazing. I'd be interested in 2 cases, 1 for MX, and 1 for Topre (so options 1 and 3). If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

[attheicearcade]

Just to clarify, you mean you'll be able to provide the case? We just need to provide a slider and a dome in order to use topre?

Yes, but you need the full switch.

To clarify on vocabulary: I refer to the top parts in the photo as the housing, and the bottom right as a typical Topre slider. When I refer to a Topre "switch" I mean the housing, slider, dome, and spring. The only difference in the Novatouch variant is the slider which supports MX keycaps (as you probably know).

Most of the keyboard should be able to use standard Topre sliders. The original design required Novatouch sliders, but with it being discontinued I modified it so regular ones should work for the 1U keys. This is untested, but will be tested before the GB.

To explain this, the old design had the housings rotated at 90 degrees from the standard Topre keyboards to leave room for the mounting bolts (see the notches at the edges of the housing). This would have been problematic for proper Topre sliders, which only allow keycaps to be mounted in 180 degree intervals, so the keycaps would have been sideways. Novatouch sliders allow keycaps to be mounted in any direction (MX style).

The new design allows the housings to maintain the typical Topre position, meaning that any 1U switch + keycap should work, and you could for example steal both the switches and keycaps from a Realforce. The downside is: the PCB mounting method may not be as secure (to be tested). An additional upside is that clones should also fit.

You will almost certainly need MX (Novatouch) sliders and MX keycaps for the double width thumb keys though, unless someone made a Topre ergodox style set (not going to happen). Note that all housings are 1U in the new design, including thumb keys, so you could just use a 1U keycap as a stopgap. You may get away with the two vertical numpad keys from a fullsize board, but you'd be two keys short (unless you only built one half) and the profiles might be wonky.

If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

Please expand on this 
The current line of manufacture is: laser cut -> press brake -> install self clinch fasteners -> powder coat.

[xondat]

If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.

Please expand on this 
The current line of manufacture is: laser cut -> press brake -> install self clinch fasteners -> powder coat.

I was pretty sure you were doing this. Doesn't matter then )

[duynguyenle]

I've been following your posts on DT for a while, glad to see it here!

Can't wait to see fully assembled prototypes! 

[Vigrith]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

[attheicearcade]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

[Vigrith]

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

LOL yea, that'd be quite the achievement. I did understand what you meant, I should've probably worded it differently, it's still fine as I can just have someone solder whatever's left for me. I have two Novatouches pretty much gathering dust/displaying keycap sets at this point so I guess I'll be fine.

This is a really cool project and I hope you manage to figure out a way to push it through!

[duynguyenle]

Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.

Allow me to keep it short.

Yes.

By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards 

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

[attheicearcade]

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

Completely untested, but they should do. The housings are square unlike Topre, but the difference is small.

[duynguyenle]

Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?

Completely untested, but they should do. The housings are square unlike Topre, but the difference is small.

Could you elaborate a bit more about the differences? I don't have any real Topre boards, only a Royal Kludge, what should I be looking out for as far as the housing goes? I've got one in storage that I could pull out and measure if that's helpful.

[pr0ximity]

If the thumb cluster is adjustable then I'm totally in for a fully loaded Topre model. I love the Maltron-style dish and the aesthetics of the render are wonderful. I don't think I'd mind tearing down my Realforce, and the idea of MX switches on the thumb cluster is actually pretty appealing. Some smooth linear mods and tactile 55g Topre alphanumerics?? Yes please!!

[drakeonyou]

I like the idea of this.

[attheicearcade]

If the thumb cluster is adjustable then I'm totally in for a fully loaded Topre model. I love the Maltron-style dish and the aesthetics of the render are wonderful. I don't think I'd mind tearing down my Realforce, and the idea of MX switches on the thumb cluster is actually pretty appealing. Some smooth linear mods and tactile 55g Topre alphanumerics?? Yes please!!

Sorry, by MX sliders I meant Novatouch ones - the controllers only support Topre. Not a bad idea though, perhaps in future there could be an MX thumb controller which could handle both MX and Topre columns...

[pr0ximity]

Ah I see, think I glossed over that. This is a bit less appealing if Novatouch sliders are needed. CtrlAlt's MX Topre sliders should be shipping in the not too distant future though. Not sure how available they'll continue to be, but if I recall correctly Bunnylake hinted they could be available on a retail site.

Anyway, IMO the board is a bit less doable for me if it requires Novatouch parts, but I'd still be quite interested in seeing if I could get ahold of the needed parts.

[Parva Ovis]

I'd definitely be down to buy a pair of cases for an MX keyboard. The renders are beautiful!

[Shados]

I'm definitely interested, possibly in both options #1 and #3. Few questions:

• Will it be possible to use 4x1u instead of 2x2u keys on the thumb cluster?
• Can the thumb cluster columns be angled relative to one another?
• Any chance of MX/Alps PCBs?
• I know you said you wouldn't, but any chance of LED support?

[TomBodet]

That's amazing.

Shipping costs would probably stop me (read: I'm really cheap) but I can't stop looking at it.

Since I've got an MX stash I'd only go case but that also assumes I get over the cost.

I didn't see any measurements on a quick glance; what's the min/max key height on the adjustment?  Say from the bottom of the case to the lowest key (middle) and bottom to highest key?  ( I hope that made sense)  I'm just trying to gauge how high off the desk it puts the keys.

[gaiden]

OP you should have an IC form for everyone to fill out. I'm definitely interested in the case for MX setup 

[gaiden]

Oh by the way, given the versatility of this board (how it can be modified and adjusted for typing style as well as MX or Topre) maybe it should be called Morphling (a MTG reference) but definitely fits the characteristic of this board! So maybe something like Morphling MX & Morphling T, anyways just some thoughts 

[attheicearcade]

Ah I see, think I glossed over that. This is a bit less appealing if Novatouch sliders are needed. CtrlAlt's MX Topre sliders should be shipping in the not too distant future though. Not sure how available they'll continue to be, but if I recall correctly Bunnylake hinted they could be available on a retail site.

Anyway, IMO the board is a bit less doable for me if it requires Novatouch parts, but I'd still be quite interested in seeing if I could get ahold of the needed parts.

Strictly speaking you don't need the Novatouch parts, that is, if you can put up with 1U keycaps on the two long thumb keys.
I'm still waiting for 3rd party MX sliders to happen, that'd be ideal.

I'm definitely interested, possibly in both options #1 and #3. Few questions:

• Will it be possible to use 4x1u instead of 2x2u keys on the thumb cluster?
• Can the thumb cluster columns be angled relative to one another?
• Any chance of MX/Alps PCBs?
• I know you said you wouldn't, but any chance of LED support?

• No, it would require a completely different controller and plate
• Not quite sure what you mean, but the thumb cluster is a solid plate in the same layout as an Ergodox. It can be moved and angled across quite a range, but the keys on the individual plate are fixed relative to the plate.
• If you mean controller, it isn't impossible but that's not my focus since DIY electronics for this type of switch is already commonplace.
• Nope! Can't stand them.

Could you elaborate a bit more about the differences? I don't have any real Topre boards, only a Royal Kludge, what should I be looking out for as far as the housing goes? I've got one in storage that I could pull out and measure if that's helpful.

The protruding part (which fits into the plate) of Topre housings are not square, they are around 14.6 x 14 mm. I think that clones are MX sized (14x14 mm), but I don't have any to check.

I didn't see any measurements on a quick glance; what's the min/max key height on the adjustment?  Say from the bottom of the case to the lowest key (middle) and bottom to highest key?  ( I hope that made sense)  I'm just trying to gauge how high off the desk it puts the keys.

It's something like 10 mm for just vertical adjustment. I can't give you exact numbers for the other parts right now but it is certainly higher than a typical keyboard. You may be able to get an idea of the size from the renders - note that all columns are in the lowest positions there.

Oh by the way, given the versatility of this board (how it can be modified and adjusted for typing style as well as MX or Topre) maybe it should be called Morphling (a MTG reference) but definitely fits the characteristic of this board! So maybe something like Morphling MX & Morphling T, anyways just some thoughts 

I have never played MTG but I like the idea 

[gaiden]

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

[Loligagger]

What about adding three LEDs on the controller board for caps/scroll/num lock?

[attheicearcade]

What about adding three LEDs on the controller board for caps/scroll/num lock?

Possible but not considered in this version. Maybe will add them when I revise them to fix some issues down the line. Right now it would be possible to use the Teensy LED as some sort of indicator.

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

I guess anything will do for MX provided it is supported by the chosen firmware.

[suicidal_orange]

looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?

It's a split board so the easiest option would be a Teensy in one side and an IO expander in the other, then you can use Ergodox firmware.  Otherwise you have to run 12(?) wires between the halves which is a thick cable

[Tom P.]

I'm interested in both the fully-assembled board and the case itself.

I'm interested in the case because it's adjustable, and for something to be properly ergonomic, it needs to be adjustable for individual needs and preferences; my car's seat is very comfortable to me only because it let me make it comfortable. Between the adjustability and the stellar industrial design, this may be "The Final Case" for me, so I will likely want multiple.

I would prefer 5 keys, not 4, for both "pinky" columns.

I would prefer the fully-assembled Topre board but I would really like to know how bottoming-out sounds on a board like this first. I know that the iconic "thock" of bottoming out on most Topre keyboards (and the lack thereof on most clones) is due more to the physical properties of the case (and your desk!) than the switches themselves. I would prefer to know, before buying, if the open-air metal case has a thinner and less satisfying bottoming-out sound. If it sounds like, say, my Realforce 45g switch tester keychain, I'd rather compromise and have a case modded with MX switches.

[LaPoune]

One fully assembled topre for me please.

[kaesve]

I'm also interested in a fully assembled set.

[gaiden]

[Q1] Where do ppl source topre keyset to fill this dox with?

[Q2] For the Topre option how many g are the springs?

[Q3] If I choose MX path is there any reason for getting option 2? I'd imagine MX path would just be straight hand-wiring is this correct?

thanks and please keep the progress updated, i think this could be the only ergodox i would use. i bought/assembled an infinite dox and the thumb clusters were a pretty big disappointment to me. this one looks very promising! i also like the natural curves on the columns! 

[suicidal_orange]

[Q1] Where do ppl source topre keyset to fill this dox with?

[Q2] For the Topre option how many g are the springs?

[Q3] If I choose MX path is there any reason for getting option 2? I'd imagine MX path would just be straight hand-wiring is this correct?

thanks and please keep the progress updated, i think this could be the only ergodox i would use. i bought/assembled an infinite dox and the thumb clusters were a pretty big disappointment to me. this one looks very promising! i also like the natural curves on the columns! 

Q1 and Q2 - this IC is for a case and Topre controller, you need a Topre keyboard to take the switches and keycaps from to build it even if you buy option 3.

Q3 - Buying a PCB you can't use will support the buy so you might get some karma?  As above, handwire would need a Teensy (or similar) and an IO expander.

[FrostyToast]

Keycaps are going to be a possible issue.
Only the fullsize board will cover them completely and even then you'll have mismatching rows.

You will end up with 2 vertical 2u caps from the numpad, an r4 "0" from the numpad, and an r1 backspace.
I guess the other option is to buy an additional keyset, but that will be extra costly.

[drawnwren]

Too late to register interest for 3?

[gaiden]

Too late to register interest for 3?

I don't think the signup form is even up yet. But super interested in one.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[attheicearcade]

Don't worry about missing out, I'm just getting a gauge on interest!

Keycaps are going to be a possible issue.
Only the fullsize board will cover them completely and even then you'll have mismatching rows.

You will end up with 2 vertical 2u caps from the numpad, an r4 "0" from the numpad, and an r1 backspace.
I guess the other option is to buy an additional keyset, but that will be extra costly.

Hopefully these should mitigate some of the keycap issues with using normal Topre boards:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/56tpxz/buying_topre_to_mx_adapters_for_05_a_piece/

[Tom P.]

You can also get 2u DCS MX-compatible vertical ABS or PBT keycaps, in convenient 4-packs, from SP: http://pimpmykeyboard.com/dcs-2-space-pack-of-4/

[gaiden]

OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great  thanks 

[drawnwren]

Sweet, I'm interested in the 3rd option.

[attheicearcade]

OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great  thanks 

This thread was to gauge whether I could sell enough to pay off the high investment cost of making a full working prototype

[FrostyToast]

well I would definitely buy the board with assembled electronics. Or, at least, the parts included.