Author Topic: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )  (Read 7004 times)

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Offline greenjack

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Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 08:33:05 »
Hi all, let me introduice my layout (third version actually)
the main points is:
  • all Russian letters at their original places (not like at first attempt)
  • symmetrical as it can be done, considering point 1
  • as much covered by regular keyset as possible

the point is that if you don't care about some legends not in place or have all modifiers blank - you can cover this layout.

I appreciate any suggestions from your side about it. Especially from the guys who need EN/RU layout.
I made a prototype with 1st version of layout but I think all these PUP, PDN, INS keys in the middle is much better to use by index fingers.

zErgo version 1
zErgo version 2
zErgo version 3 green marked keys just not in place; yellow marked - not in place and with wrong legend (if you take them from standard keyset)

« Last Edit: Wed, 24 March 2021, 08:02:54 by greenjack »

Offline nevin

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 10:25:36 »
here's another recent thread of someone that's working on something similar
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111354.0

one of the easiest things to do is use blanks, especially for modifiers, as you usually know exactly where they are and don't really need to see what the labels are.
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Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 15 March 2021, 19:03:22 »
Since I've been down this particular rabbit hole, I'll offer some suggestions, if I may.
  • Unless you go for an unsculpted keycap set, you'll have a very hard time finding the 1.25u Fn and Tab and the 1.5u Enter keys in the correct profiles.
  • I think that the arrow cluster and the navigation keys work best when grouped together, either in the middle or the right side.
  • Some gaps between the Function row keys often help a lot.
  • The 0.5u symmetric stagger is probably too aggressive, especially for a flat keyboard. I'd consider a 0.25u or have a look at what I've done in the thread that nevin linked.
  • I think that the right shift is too small and too far away to be pressed accurately by a pinky. Same applies to the Bsp keys as well.
  • Well placed 1.5u thumb keys should be large enough for the thumbs, replacing those large stabilized keys in the bottom row and allowing for more and better placed thumb keys.
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 March 2021, 19:05:15 by Gorbon »

Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 02:11:10 »
here's another recent thread of someone that's working on something similar
similar, but not about the cyrillic which add a dozens of problems ))
Quote
one of the easiest things to do is use blanks, especially for modifiers, as you usually know exactly where they are and don't really need to see what the labels are.
I am agree except of the F-row which I prefer to see the numbers, so the best way is to find the option to buy the set with only some modifiers blank, or (which is more easy) buy separate set of modifiers, or even full blank set, which is quite cheap I think.

Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 02:39:23 »
Since I've been down this particular rabbit hole, I'll offer some suggestions, if I may...
of course you can, that's my intention to have some feedback and discussion. By the way - did you see the previous versions? Some of your remarks done there separately.

I use now the prototype made with ver.1 layout - I have no issues with 1U shift, however I really use only left one and they done by row 4 keys, so it may helps that they are higher than neighbors

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 16 March 2021, 06:25:17 »
The 0.5u symmetric stagger is probably too aggressive, especially for a flat keyboard. I'd consider a 0.25u or have a look at what I've done in the thread that nevin linked.
To expand a bit on what I mean with the 0.5u row stagger being a bit aggressive; it increases the distance between key centers to ~1.12u and gives an effective split angle of ~26.6░.

To give a visual example, you are effectively typing on a keyboard that looks something like this.

264519-0

Which on a flat keyboard makes it a bit worse, since in addition to increased finger distances, you also need to raise your elbows while you type, in order to keep your palms parallel to the keyboard and your fingers aligned with the keys.

Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 02:38:56 »
To expand a bit on what I mean with the 0.5u row stagger being a bit aggressive; it increases the distance between key centers to ~1.12u and gives an effective split angle of ~26.6░.

That's more clear - thanks.
I read your topic. The finger lines you draw there - curved. So does it make sense to define a various step for separate rows? For example - 0.5u from R1 to R2, 0,25U from R2 to R3?

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 17 March 2021, 05:50:12 »
So does it make sense to define a various step for separate rows? For example - 0.5u from R1 to R2, 0,25U from R2 to R3?
I think so, yes. Fingers have different lengths and curl upwards/downwards non-uniformly. Of course every keyboard design has its own limitations and restrictions, which need to be taken into account.

I think that putting your hands over the keyboard, at a tented and comfortable position (with straight wrists), and following the natural movement of your fingers, would set you on the right path.

Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 07:27:35 »
I think that putting your hands over the keyboard, at a tented and comfortable position (with straight wrists), and following the natural movement of your fingers, would set you on the right path.

obviously while declare your point of view you will push me directly to your solution ))

the important points for me is:
- stay with the rectangular case design, better if out lines will still be straight
- "backwards capability" with the guys who not familiar with a weird boards like wife or system administrator at job.

and i don't personally like those gaps which comes with the .25 shifting

PS: finally I can conclude that overall idea and/or layout not so interesting for the community.

Offline nevin

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 07:36:17 »
There have been a couple symmetrical staggered boards (even some manufactured boards) but you are correct, they have not been that popular.

The board I've been using for years and absolutely love is probably one of the least popular split ortho boards.
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Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 07:53:39 »
There have been a couple symmetrical staggered boards (even some manufactured boards) but you are correct, they have not been that popular.

well, yes I've seen them probably. I was actually impressed by Katana60, but I'd like to use F-row and... Cyrillics... is a pain. Cause for anyone who don't use it - has nice symmetrical layout and many non letter buttons which is a subject to move.

why they not popular? looks like it's a good compromise between hardcore ergonomically split boards and regular layout intended to kill your left hand )

Offline nevin

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 08:59:09 »
Quote
why they not popular? looks like it's a good compromise between hardcore ergonomically split boards and regular layout intended to kill your left hand )

... i have no idea. probably because the mass produced ones were just not understood why they looked that way & what benefits they had over a standard 104 keyboard.

...but the alice layout blew up like crazy..... and all the variations/clones of the alice layout.

i was in best buy (electronics store) the other week and i was surprised to see a 60% keyboard. yeah, it was a gamer one... huntsman i think... but still surprised to see form factors we've been using for years finally starting to show up in mainstream stores.
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Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 13:12:27 »
obviously while declare your point of view you will push me directly to your solution ))
I'm not trying to convince you of something; I'm just saying that ergonomic layout decisions, should stem from the natural positioning/movement of the fingers/hands/arms.

I illustrated how a 0.5u symmetric row stagger is ergonomically suboptimal, especially for a flat keyboard, but like I mentioned, different keyboards and people have different priorities.

finally I can conclude that overall idea and/or layout not so interesting for the community.
Again, I'm not trying to push or sell something. I'm just documenting my thoughts in case they are helpful to someone else. You find it uninteresting, someone else might not.

PS: There is this mental trap called the sunken costs fallacy, with which I am unfortunately all too familiar. Just because one devotes a lot of time/effort/money into something, it doesn't mean that it's right or that's it's too late to change course. I'm not saying that it necessary applies here, just something to keep in mind.
« Last Edit: Thu, 18 March 2021, 13:15:59 by Gorbon »

Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 18 March 2021, 13:40:41 »
...but the alice layout blew up like crazy..... and all the variations/clones of the alice layout.
I think that the Alice is just different enough to capture one's attention, but not too different to require a large time investment to learn it. It doesn't make much sense to invest time learning a new layout, if you don't type all that much.

And while not ergonomically great, it does offer some improvements over the standard layout. I think this is where it owes its popularity.


Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 08:11:23 »
I think so, yes. Fingers have different lengths and curl upwards/downwards non-uniformly.

Going deeper in the option of different shift between rows I have this version:


Offline Gorbon

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 12:06:31 »
Yes, I like this one.

I think moving the right thumb-shift one key to the right, would probably make it better placed for the thumb.

Apart from that, I don't think you can do much better with just a 104 key set (it's a big constraint) and I still maintain that it would be best to use a single profile set. Mix and matching sculptured keys from different rows is often not optimal, especially placing bottom row keys on the the top row (e.g. that 1.25u key under Esc), would look and feelů wrong.

Offline greenjack

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Re: Symmetrical Layout for Russian lang... as possible )
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 29 March 2021, 04:56:19 »
Actually this one done not at the base of standard 104 key set, but on this one from AE which is definitely wider one..

I am agree that it's easier with non sculptured keys. Of course.
I will try to make new with only 104 keys and see if that possible to make something similar.

Any other comments?