Author Topic: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods  (Read 3103 times)

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Offline 1pq

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Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 20:31:01 »
I use Mac for a while now (I have a macbook air and a hackintosh), so I've never really used the nav cluster much. I was wondering if anyone here has used mac-style navigation and pc-style navigation and would like to share how they compare. Mac navigation seems far superior as far as hand movement and usability, but I'd like to hear other arguments. In case anyone's unfamiliar with the way navigation works on OS X, I've included a description I wrote about it in another thread.

With Mac, the main modifiers are Command and Alt (placed in the Alt and Windows key locations on a normal board respectively—I'm sure most of you know this but I'm saying this for those who don't). To navigate one character/line at a time you use the arrow keys (like windows). To navigate between words, you can use alt + left/right arrows. To navigate entire lines (they will look like paragraphs if the lines wrap), you can use alt + up/down. If you want to just jump to the beginning/end of where the line wraps, you can use command + left/right. If you want to navigate to the beginning or end of the document, you can use command + up/down. These all work quite nicely with selecting text, because you alt/command with your thumb, and shift with your pinkey (and arrow keys with your right hand. This way, you only really need four nav keys for editing.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 20:51:59 »
Both systems suck pretty hard, in my opinion.

Here’s (roughly) the plan for my in-progress ergo keyboard, using the qwerty key names for convenience, though it might change a bit before it’s finalized (and the keys aren’t positioned quite like on a standard Sholes/QWERTY keyboard):

* left thumb modifier (let’s call it ⎈) + J/I/K/O (left/up/down/right) for navigation
* ⎈ + H/U for move forward/backward by one word
* ⎈ + L/P for move to the beginning/end of a line
* ⎈ + ; + I/K for page up/page down
* ⎈ + ; + H/U for switching applications (alt-tab style)
* ⎈ + ; + L/P for switch to previous/next window within an application
* ⎈ + ; + J/O for switch to previous/next tab in applications with tabs
* ⎈ + F + J/I/K/O/H/U/L/P for changing the current selection based on the appropriate movement

Also, maybe something along the lines of:

* ⎈ + D + M/,/./J/K/L/U/I/O for a numpad
* ⎈ + S + stuff on the right hand for F keys.
« Last Edit: Sun, 23 February 2014, 20:57:08 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 20:53:11 »

Offline 1pq

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 22:10:38 »
Both systems suck pretty hard, in my opinion.

Here’s (roughly) the plan for my in-progress ergo keyboard, using the qwerty key names for convenience, though it might change a bit before it’s finalized (and the keys aren’t positioned quite like on a standard Sholes/QWERTY keyboard):

* left thumb modifier (let’s call it ⎈) + J/I/K/O (left/up/down/right) for navigation
* ⎈ + H/U for move forward/backward by one word
* ⎈ + L/P for move to the beginning/end of a line
* ⎈ + ; + I/K for page up/page down
* ⎈ + ; + H/U for switching applications (alt-tab style)
* ⎈ + ; + L/P for switch to previous/next window within an application
* ⎈ + ; + J/O for switch to previous/next tab in applications with tabs
* ⎈ + F + J/I/K/O/H/U/L/P for changing the current selection based on the appropriate movement

Also, maybe something along the lines of:

* ⎈ + D + M/,/./J/K/L/U/I/O for a numpad
* ⎈ + S + stuff on the right hand for F keys.

Hmm, this is interesting. I don't think I'd like it, though, since you often chord the action keys rather than the modifying keys (all the ';' modifiers). What I like about the mac setup is that the modifiers are all easily reachable and chord-able, and you don't have to move your hand much for the arrow keys (on certain keyboards, that is—I'm typing on a Leopold FC660C as we speak ;) ).
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 23 February 2014, 23:04:43 »
Hmm, this is interesting. I don't think I'd like it, though, since you often chord the action keys rather than the modifying keys (all the ';' modifiers).
Use whatever other key you want. Use a different modifier key instead of a chord if you want. Use a key on the left hand instead of the right if you want. Whatever.

Again, this is just the current plan, it’ll probably change as I finalize the physical layout and actually start working on the firmware.

Quote
What I like about the mac setup is that the modifiers are all easily reachable and chord-able, and you don't have to move your hand much for the arrow keys [...]
Here are some of the problems I have w/ standard keyboard layout/shortcuts and text-manipulation software, from trivial to more fundamental problems: (1) Modifiers on a standard keyboard take more movement than necessary to reach; (2) Pressing 2-3 modifiers at a time requires moving the hand away from its standard position; (3) Often shortcuts require 2-3 simultaneous modifier keys + letter keys on the same side of the keyboard, which means those letters must often be pressed with a different finger than would normally be used for that letter; (4) Arrow keys and other navigation keys are not near the home row; (5) Arrow keys cannot easily be used simultaneously with the mouse, because they are intended for use by the same hand; (6) The numpad is far away from the home row, and using the numbers on the top row of a keyboard requires reaching and is slow and error prone; (7) The backwards delete key requires reaching to hit; [8] The shortcuts, if they exist at all, for deleting whole words / sentences / lines / paragraphs / pages forward or backward are cumbersome; (9) The standard caret / selection mechanism, even when extended by some saved “marks” (as in emacs or OS X text boxes) or similar, is very inflexible and unnecessarily cumbersome, see Jef Raskin’s book The Humane Interface for some good ideas about improved systems; (10) Common implementations of type-ahead find basically suck; (11) Cut/copy/paste is a horribly outdated and limited metaphor, and drag/drop of text blocks isn’t really any better.. a “kill ring” doesn’t really improve much; (11) Most text widgets have no solid macro recording features, and the ones that do make it harder than it should be to quickly save multiple macros in different shortcut slots; (12) The mouse, trackpoint, trackball, etc. is too far away from the home row, and text boxes aren’t designed to take full advantage of pointer devices that can make analog inputs (for example, I should be able to hold a key and move my mouse to change the selection relative to the current caret position, rather than needing to click and drag a whole new selection); etc. etc.

* * *

For what it’s worth, I agree with you that the standard basic Linux/Windows text editing / navigation shortcuts are crappy compared to the default Mac ones. None of them has really had much thought put in since about 1990 though, if not earlier. Alas.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 24 February 2014, 01:52:36 »
I got really used to using 2 styles of the PC version of editing (Shift+Insert and Ctrl-V styles) and then later tried a Mac. The contortions required of my left hand on a Mac to do Shift + Cmd + Arrow was not comfortable at all.

I definitely prefer having the edit cluster, using Home, End and Delete. I like to have both Backspace and Delete available when editing. Using Shift with my left hand while using Arrows, Home, End, Delete, Backspace and Enter (ISO size, so it's just under Backspace / next to Delete) with my right hand is the most comfortable to me and very intuitive by now, but that's mostly due to long use and familiarity.

My thoughts on 60% board layouts:

On a Poker 2, using Pn with right pinkie and Pn+PL;' as arrows, Pn+O as Home, Pn+[ as End, Pn+I as Del. That keeps all my "traditional" editing keys in a logical arrangement with reachable modifier and Backspace and Enter within reach without moving my hand.

Unfortunately that layout requires moving my hand from the "home row" typing position, but in order to reach the Pn key with my pinkie comfortably, that's where the keys need to be arranged.

If the board supports it, a better arrangement is the same layout, but based around the right hand home row keys (IJKL, U, O and Y or 7) with the right hand "Windows" key assigned to modify the function of the keys.

I don't like using the left hand for arrows, especially WASD, ESDF would be more acceptable.

On my custom ergo board I have dedicated keys for arrows, Home, End, PgUp, PgDn and Del, something like the "Truly Ergonomic" keyboard, and thumb key modifiers. It works well, but Del is a bit of a stretch so I use Backspace more since it's on a thumb key.
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Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 24 February 2014, 18:35:38 »
I like the PC style navigation better. I also use it a lot more than Mac style navigation, so maybe it's just that I use it more frequently. The main reason I like it better is a lot more obvious what you need to do for certain actions. For the newb, they would need to look up the Mac equivalent of the home key. On PC, it's a single key that is right in front of them.

There are other things like key combinations for certain actions that are commonplace on the Mac that I wish were commonplace on Windows. Cmd+W and Cmd+Q for closing a tab and closing an application are the best yet for Windows it's some stupid key combination in most programs.

Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: Nav cluster vs arrow keys + mods
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 25 February 2014, 12:56:24 »
They're both garbage. If you want something slightly less terrible, use capslock to access a layer where the left hand home row is alt, shift, control and the right hand is arrow keys (and above that home and end.. and around pageup and pagedown). Now you have home row navigation, albeit still with a bunch of unnecessary chording. 90% of what people generally do with modifiers is both unnecessary and inefficient.

My hands can't take the abuse. I use vim style bindings everywhere (and I do mean pretty much everywhere). If a program doesn't support changing keybindings, then I create modes to fake the keyboard input for the existing keyboard shortcuts.


For what it’s worth, I agree with you that the standard basic Linux/Windows text editing / navigation shortcuts are crappy compared to the default Mac ones. None of them has really had much thought put in since about 1990 though, if not earlier. Alas.
OSX shortcuts are not any more usable in my experience, and the keyboard layout is just as bad if not worse than the standard in my opinion. I will never understand the complaining about the terrible design of shortcuts coupled with the unwillingness to do anything about it (aversion to using a proper text editor or doing basic keyboard remapping).
Also, I don't think you can really say that there are standard Linux navigation shortcuts (there really aren't). The closest thing to a standard for text editing might be vi/vim, which have far superior bindings. Then there's emacs, which has some of the most masochistic bindings imaginable (though they are easily improved).

As for the points you brought up, they are all easily remedied for the most part (and I have remedied them personally), though I don't understand the problem copy/cut/paste or having a "kill ring" (other than the common c-c,c-v,c-x bindings).

1. Solution: Use as few modifiers as possible. Use modal bindings for instances where a modifier would be held down continuously for repeated actions. Use a keyboard with a smaller space bar and thumb accessible keys for all necessary modifiers. Consider the use of prefix keys in some instances (i.e. compose keys (chaining).. dead keys.. etc.).
2. Solution: Remap modifiers to home row or use thumb modifiers or do above.
3. Solution: Again, these shortcuts are terribly inefficient and should be eliminated (assuming efficiency is the goal). Use software that allows for better bindings or make your own.
4. Solution: Programs that use vim like hjkl or arrow keys on caps layer for example (or even dual role home row keys)
5. Solution: Well in games, there's wasd/esdf. There's remapping. Also, throw away your mouse (half serious).
6. Remap the num row to home row with thumb modifier.
7. Modal bindings or remap backspace to something like caps+o
8. dw, dd, etc. are all very easy with programs that support vim bindings (or you make them yourself by faking keyboard input or doing hardware remapping with macros)
9. Visual modes
10. I don't know what type ahead find is. If you mean find as you type, isn't that common?
11. I don't understand the problem with y,d,p and a kill ring like interface/clipboard manager.
2nd 11. Use better software
12. The mouse is both unnecessary and inefficient for dealing with any text box.
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 February 2014, 13:19:01 by angelic_sedition »
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