A sad day in Filco Ninja Land

[nolo]

Maybe someone should invent such a thing ?! Seems to be a most needed tool  

[sordna]

Did I mention it was a B♭?  Wasn't expecting to hear a B♭ either, just some nice Cherry Brown clicks.  Yet then I hear a B♭.  Does my mind think I should be hearing a B♭ when I press a cherry brown key?

 
One of my Kinesises sound a B and another sounds a C note.

[fds]

OK I finally see what sound you guys are talking about now. To make it all you have to do is release fast. The "ringing" is created from the spring release obviously and the case resonating. If you slowly take pressure off the key instead of releasing all at once you won't hear it. If there is any background noise in the room you won't hear it. I agree, the ninja does "ring" noticeably more than the leopold compared side by side.

In practice though, we don't just slam keys down and release fast. No one actually types like that. You guys making sound samples should be typing out regular paragraphs or typing tests. You can't hear it during normal typing unless you really listen for it because the normal key noise masks it. It is a higher frequency sound (because it is perceived I should say pitch), so the older geek hackers may be more immune to it.  

I see now you guys aren't just trolling, the sound really is there. However, I do think you're over exaggerating the problem. If you type softly, normally, -- anything except slamming and/or rapid release you will not hear it. Mechanical keyboards have springs in them, of course they are going to make noise if you slam on them. If you want to mash your keys freely and have them be silent go back to rubber domes.    

As others have already said, it comes down to your sensitivity to it. Personally it does not bother me.  I probably would never have even singled it out if it weren't for all these people posting making such a big deal about it.  I expect a mechanical keyboard to make some noise. This keyboard is still extremely sexy and comfortable to type on. Those qualities are more important to me than a faint ringing noise I can only hear in a silent room when I type a specific way to intentionally reproduce. I highly doubt I will be returning it. But I respect that it will annoy some people more than others.      

I will try to put up a video as soon as I get the chance, both to demonstrate the noise in relation to the leopold and show that it's not really a big deal.                            

Also I think the noise is more of a BING than a ping.

[sordna]

Also I think the noise is more of a BING than a ping.

No. It's a ding. Without question.

[keyboardlover]

I heard it plenty during normal typing.

[fds]

I heard it plenty during normal typing.

You must type pretty rough then, eh? slamming down and/or rapid release?

[keyboardlover]

Not that I know of. I DO have long, powerful fingers though.

Just ask the ladies.

[fds]

Not that I know of. I DO have long, powerful fingers though.

Just ask the ladies.

Try intentionally typing softer and not bottoming out (like if you were in a library). When I release slowly and keep some pressure on I can't hear it at all, especially in the home row. Some people have a tendency to rapidly release spacebar/enter too instead of keeping a light pressure on and slowly bringing them back up.

I also don't notice it with any sort of background noise in the room.

[sordna]

Here is my kinesis springs singing. I discovered 2 pinging keys, one is a C (spacebar on the thumb cluster) the other a C# (slash key on the keywell area). If I find enough notes, I can play some tunes.

The 2nd clip is the same keyboard, some time later. I lined up the inside of the case with sorbothane, and put some dampening material around the bolts that hold the thumb clusters. Maybe hard-drive silent mounts would work too. The ping is significantly reduced, and the keyboard is overall quieter (due to the sorbothane). I didn't mind the sound, but thought to offer this experiment for folks to try.

[daerid]

16 pages? wow....

[sordna]

It's the google sound thingie inspiring us.

[Wallach]

16 pages? wow....

Well, bear in mind at least a quarter of those are Ripster's.

[sordna]

Hey, how do I make my mp3 attachment use the embedded player ?

edit; nevermind, I found it, I needed to *remove* the [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] tags. Weird.

[redpill]

In practice though, we don't just slam keys down and release fast. No one actually types like that. You guys making sound samples should be typing out regular paragraphs or typing tests.

Please, just stop.  If it was only when I was smacking keys for demonstration purposes it wouldn't be noticeable and I wouldn't bother making a video of it.  The reason for taking specific keys during a demonstration video is because I was using a cell phone for a mic and I was attempting to demonstrate the noise.   Believe me, the noise is there constantly when typing normal paragraphs.  It's the worst when I hit enter, which is obviously quite often.  So you finish a paragraph, hit enter, and rrrrinngggg for a good full second after you stopped typing.  I'm not slitting my wrists over it, but I have a Poker on the same desk with the same switches that doesn't do it which cost $50 less, so I'm not really buying the "just deal with it" line.  It needs fixing, and I'm going to attempt to fix it.  It may not be operable by the time I'm done, but the ping will die with it!

[fds]

It needs fixing, and I'm going to attempt to fix it.  It may not be operable by the time I'm done, but the ping will die with it!

god's speed

[sordna]

Try my (reversible) mod, add some rubber material around the mount points of the PCB and/or plate, such as rubber washers on the internal screws (both above and below the PCB), that sort of thing. Line the case inside surfaces with sorbothane wherever possible.
Listen to before / after samples in post #227 above. Different keyboard but same ideas apply to all of them. The idea is to make the various mount points and connections LESS rigid, not more rigid as some others suggested. Rigid things make louder sounds, think bells, guitars, etc. Mount points need to be loosened up so there's no sound transfer, which is how silent hard-drive mounts work.

[redpill]

Well I'm admittedly not an expert on how these things are assembled, but after taking apart the case, I don't see any screws or other attachments between the metal plate and the PCB that can be loosened.  And it still makes the same reverberating ring with the case off.  Padding under the PCB and then reassembling didn't have an effect because it's the metal plate that is sounding.  So whatever the solution is has to be focused on the metal plate or the way that the keycaps impact the switches (which would address the symptom moreso than the problem, but if it works with minimal impact on feel then who cares).

I'll try different keycaps, landing pads, and jamming various dampening materials between the pcb and the metal plate first.  After that, then we start getting into the more "point of no return" options like expanding insulation foam.

[The Solutor]

The idea is to make the various mount points and connections LESS rigid,  which is how silent hard-drive mounts work.

This way helps to avoid the sound transfer to the case. You can't silence an HDD so it's the only way possible.

Instead when we speak about keys we can resolder it, we can open it, we can kill the sound where originates which is surely better than avoiding to transmit it.

Killing the sound's origin is more a fix, killing the sound transmission is more a patch.

[redpill]

Hmm....

I'll sleep on it

I'm not putting it in the oven so don't get any ideas!!

[sordna]

This way helps to avoid the sound transfer to the case. You can't silence an HDD so it's the only way possible.
Instead when we speak about keys we can resolder it, we can open it, we can kill the sound where originates which is surely better than avoiding to transmit it.

I agree it would be better, but the sound originates at the spring. Soldering is NOT gonna do anything, and even if it did, it's a patch too because the sound we all agree originates INSIDE the switch.

Killing the sound's origin is more a fix, killing the sound transmission is more a patch.

Yes it is a patch, unless you want to open up around 100 switches and apply some kind of grease or something to the spring. It would be very time consuming and will probably destroy the keyboard.
In any case, I noticed that keyboards ping even if you tap them / knock them. Also a pinging key sometimes pings if you release an adjacent key. All this (and ripster's plate photo) tell me that part of the problem is that if one spring makes a noise, all of them will oscillate and amplify the sound.

Perhaps expanding foam is the best solution for keyboards that have a plate. That or just lining the edges of  the plate/pcb with sorbothane or something, as much as you can squeeze it in between all around.

[The Solutor]

Ok, I resoldered the affected switch and recorded the sound before and after.

As you can hear, after resoldering it, the switch is still slightly more pingy than a normal one, but is waaaay less  pingy than before

[sordna]

Damn :-)
That's a great improvement. is it a plate mounted switch, or there's no plate?

[The Solutor]

Yes it is a patch, unless you want to open up around 100 switches and apply some kind of grease or something to the spring. It would be very time consuming and will probably destroy the keyboard.

 
I already opened 100 switches when I went from browns to ergo clears, it's time consuming but easy, If the filcos are using just two contact per switch the task becomes incredibly easy.

BTW I'm speaking about a keyboard that has FEW switches pinging, if ALL the switches are pinging returning the keyboard is the best option.

Perhaps expanding foam is the best solution for keyboards that have a plate.

Poliurethane foam was an option I considered w/o thinking to the ping problem (I was unaware of it at the time), just to improve the overall keyboard sound so I don't exclude it as additional option.

[The Solutor]

Damn :-)
That's a great improvement. is it a plate mounted switch, or there's no plate?

 

Plate mount + LED

[sordna]

Ok. I guess resoldering has the effect of not necessarily strengthening the bond, but generally altering the forces between switch, plate, PCB in different ways (decreasing / decreasing them in the various directions). Minute position changes while resoldering may be warranted to dampen stubborn switches.
Good job Solutor!
i still think that resoldering will have little effect on PCB mounted switches without a plate, but I could be wrong.

[The Solutor]

Ok. I guess resoldering has the effect of not necessarily strengthening the bond, but generally altering the forces between switch, plate, PCB in different ways (decreasing / decreasing them in the various directions). Minute position changes while resoldering may be warranted to dampen stubborn switches.

 


My point is that industrial way to put the switches in place can't be good as a single person that checks carefully every operation, especially if the keyboard he is resoldering is his own one.

You can't expect this from industries, because one hour spent on a single keyboard doesn't matters for a single user. One hour spent for every keyboard produced means, for an industrial production, huge additional costs.

This means that in a brand new keyboard all the switches aren't in the position they should, and while this doesn't affects most of the switches, it exacerbates the ping of some others.

[Zensuji]

Both my gen ones ping and my ninja pings. I actually like it. If I put them on a softer surface they are pretty silent but there's no way I'd dampen that sweet music.

[Tony]

My point is that industrial way to put the switches in place can't be good, as a single person that checks carefully every operation, especially if the keyboard he is resoldering is his own one.

You can't expect this from industries, because one hour spent on a single keyboard doesn't matters for a single users. One hour spent for every keyboard produced means, for an industrial production, huge additional costs.

This means that in a brand new keyboard all the switches aren't in the position they should, and while this doesn't affects most of the switches, it exacerbates the ping of some others.

Seconded. The end user is recruited to the Quality Control team, without pay.

[morethanless]

It's no new problem
Even Ripster's Blue TKL rings badly.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?12126-Filco-noise&p=233708&viewfull=1#post233708

[Lester]

What's TKL?

This is me doing more normal typing.


And the idea of someone resoldering switches to try this to fix it is ludicrous at best.

You guys just need to man up as shown clearly in the PING POLL!  Or as I say in the above link get a Topre and pay the bucks for your OCD.

Quoting from 3 days ago:

What's TKL?

TKL is short for TenKeyLess...where have you been?

Short memmory!

[nolo]

Little by little it seems to me that this is a



Ping, Ring, Zing, Bing .... I don't give a damn!  I still love the sound of my filcos!

Btw ... Too many RMAs and keybordco will probably stop distributing filcos to north america

[fds]

It's no new problem
Even Ripster's Blue TKL rings badly.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?12126-Filco-noise&p=233708&viewfull=1#post233708

That sound sample is to me the perfect example of the noise we've been describing.
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12992&d=1287064520

[penpoints]

Sound samples or it didn't happen!

You'd make a lousy witness. :music:


BTW, I was wrong about my 1st-gen Filco keyboards. This is the actual situation:

Tenkeyless (x2), blue switches - very slight ping, immediately deadened.

Tenkeyless (x2), brown switches - very slight ping, immediately deadened.

Tenkeyless (x1, black otaku), brown switches - no ping.

Tenkeyless (x2), black switches - noticeable ping, quickly deadened.

As you can see, I really like Filco keyboards! Until this week I never thought about pinging or ringing as an issue. I don't think it matters the slightest bit, unless it's loud and causes the metal plate to resonate. (The so-called Tuning Fork Effect.)

Anyhow, I shouldn't have used the word "ping" to describe the "sustained metallic ringing" of the keyboards I returned to Amazon. That was confusing.

[keyboardlover]

Unlike Welly's, this is an ACTUAL problem that a lot of people are experiencing, regardless of how you type.

And don't compare me to Welly. That's like comparing you to webwit.

[The Solutor]

That sound sample is to me the perfect example of the noise we've been describing.
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=12992&d=1287064520

 

Not for me, I can't hear any pinging sound here and in the ripster's sample, I just hear a squeaking high pitched sound, that sounds like more as a lack of lube than a pinging/tuning fork  sound.

So It's time to clarify what is the Filco's problem, pinging, squeaking or both ?

[keyboardlover]

For me it was more of a ringing than anything else. None of my other keyboards do it.

If I wanted to experience all that metal on metal action, I'd watch robot porn.

[The Solutor]

For me it was more of a ringing than anything else. None of my other keyboards do it.

 
So similar to the sample I posted before ?

[keyboardlover]

Didn't get a chance to listen to the samples yet. I'm on vacation.

Ripster should take one sometime.

[keyboardlover]

You've become very trollish lately.

[keyboardlover]

To be perfectly honest, no. It was my first Filco and I just assumed that was how those keyboards were.

Back then everyone thought it was a plate mounted vs PCB mounted issue.

Got anymore brainbuster questions for me trollster?

[fds]

BTW, I was wrong about my 1st-gen Filco keyboards. This is the actual situation:

Tenkeyless (x1, black otaku), brown switches - no ping.

Sounds like you just want your favorite to not have it.

[sordna]

Solutor's sound sample was the best. You could really hear it, no OCD required.

[The Solutor]

But Solutor's sounds fake. Like it's been AutoTuned.

 
Ripster, really, you don't feel ridiculous ?

[sordna]

[video=youtube;-s8tLanswAI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s8tLanswAI[/video]

[The Solutor]

I still think Solutor's sound sample sounds a bit fake. Why are the clicks so different?

Maybe because both my recording equipment and my keyboard are better than yours ? :becky:

[posthaste]

The Koreans want to weigh in on this controversy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLII-ya6h9o

[morethanless]

What's TKL?

This is me doing more normal typing.


And the idea of someone resoldering switches to try this to fix it is ludicrous at best.

You guys just need to man up as shown clearly in the PING POLL!  Or as I say in the above link get a Topre and pay the bucks for your OCD.

That audio file you posted has clearly a ringing right at the beginning and again around 0:15.

[The Solutor]

This way you will never pass the admission test for the elementary school

[sordna]

Well, since Solutor came through and did the resoldering (you asked him to do it first) now it's your turn. We need more data!

[Lanx]

look it's simple if you can't hear the pingggggg from the sound files provided by these ppl then you're OLD, you cannot hear higher frequencies cuz you're just getting old, i linked that test a bit back and if you can't hear frequencies you are either OLD or loosing your hearing.

and again another link to showcase the lose of hearing.
http://journal.plasticmind.com/ears/mosquito-tone-or-how-to-tell-youre-a-youngun/