Author Topic: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)  (Read 7061 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #50 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 04:47:03 »
Update:
Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses, and that anything made post 2011 "should" work (provided your bios enables it) but Microsoft has yet to verify any of this.


I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it. The installer was also quite strict regarding how the boot disk was prepped and failed to explain why it failed. I tried running setup from inside Windows and it errored out saying it needs TPM 2.0, at least this time it gave me an error instead of nothing, unfortunately it also sounds like the compatibility error and I have no way around it until a newer ISO drops.

The worrisome part is that while they acknowledge it has an issue and say they are working on it it also means they absolutely plan on enforcing these mandates.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #51 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 08:06:40 »

Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses

I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it.


I will be following this with interest. I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSD a few years ago.

I honestly can't remember how I got Windows 10 onto it but it was probably via my retail 8.1 disc and then the free MS migration to 10 which was common at the time.

So, is MS going to continue grandfathering in all current 10 installs, or will they try to root out installs that they deem illegit?
Or will everybody have to start paying subscription fees making the provenance of their install moot?
« Last Edit: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:20:06 by fohat.digs »
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #52 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 08:44:52 »
Update:
Word is now it's TPM 1.2 for self builds and 2.0 for OEM licenses, and that anything made post 2011 "should" work (provided your bios enables it) but Microsoft has yet to verify any of this.


I tried installing it to the T440.
The OS claims it's not compatible, I tried TPM 1.2 and 2.0, no luck. I did some digging, Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it. The installer was also quite strict regarding how the boot disk was prepped and failed to explain why it failed. I tried running setup from inside Windows and it errored out saying it needs TPM 2.0, at least this time it gave me an error instead of nothing, unfortunately it also sounds like the compatibility error and I have no way around it until a newer ISO drops.

The worrisome part is that while they acknowledge it has an issue and say they are working on it it also means they absolutely plan on enforcing these mandates.

Some people have started finding a way around using the bootloader from 21h1 which bypasses the TPM requirement all together. 

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Offline rowdy

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #53 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 19:22:50 »
I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSK a few years ago.

Been using IBM keyboard far too long? :D

[...] Microsoft says there is a bug that is causing compatible hardware to show up as incompatible and they are working on it.

The cynical among us might suggest that Microsfot have underestimated the negative feedback they're receive to the strict hardware limitations, and are frantically trying to loosen them up a bit.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #54 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:22:37 »
I have a T440p that I bought used with no hard drive and added a new SSK a few years ago.

Been using IBM keyboard far too long?

Flying fingers make mistakes. But I did also add a new SSK a few years ago, too bad it came out of the box with over half its rivets broken.




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Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #55 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 21:47:34 »
ahh rounded edges nooo

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 26 June 2021, 23:09:59 »
Some people have started finding a way around using the bootloader from 21h1 which bypasses the TPM requirement all together. 
For now.
I did similar to sneak 8.1 and Win10 onto non compatible systems, the problem is while it works, it's just like a Hackintosh, the next update could break it.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #57 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 00:00:41 »
Soo more digging, more info...

MS put out more info about compatibility, it was as I expected just the tested/certified, not a hard list. Good since even current selling Surface tablets didn't meet specs but oh boy did they drop a whopper.

So TPM and other requirements...
Intel and AMD cpus made in the last decade have it built in, don't go buying a TPM usb chip, you probably won't need it. It does require UEF and Secure Boot, so if you installed using CSM or BIOS, you will need to either reinstall or convert it to EFI, the latter is not simple but probably a good option for those with tons of data, however I would recommend backing up before you do it. You need to do this before you can enable Secure boot.

The new information brings to light the part that's going to absolutely trainwreck laptops is not TPM or secure boot, it's the GPU. The GPU must be DX12 compatible. I suspect one error the installer has is it's erroring out on the GPU and blaming the TPM, you can't fix something when you get the wrong error message.
R7 series AMD or later
GTX 700 or later Nvidia
Intel 6000 series or 500 series or better, this means 8th gen Intel Core or 5000 series Atom.

Is there a way around the GPU, I wouldn't be surprised, we've managed it in the past but refer to my post above, the next update could still wreck it (and it will stop it from auto updating to 11). Also being that it's a driver hack, it's possible you will need to disable driver certification in order to make it work and this opens up a security issues. Another issue bypassing this will be system load and display problems, we aren't talking a sound problem or tearing, the screen could simply display nothing at times. So the real question is how "required" is DX12, I'll probably fire up the T440 and force the install just to see because I do think this will be the biggest problem people will face.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #58 on: Sun, 27 June 2021, 07:54:04 »
Good news:
I found a tool that actually checks compatibility and actually works, who'd have thunk. In the Lenovo EFI you need to select the TPM type, then go to the next entry and click "Enable". Seriously Lenovo, why? Anyhow, I missed it half a dozen or so times. It still throws a hard error for the GPU.

Semi bad news
Test results, all is fine except the GPU, I got the first round of install to go (disable safeboot then re-enable on first restart), however when it does the first reboot and starts to do the setup from the drive itself I get an error. I tried to get into the drive using a Linux disk and swap out the hardware checker and see if it gets past this but it's a 90% installed, it looks like qa full Windows Install mid upgrade and nothing like the install disk so I'm at a bit of a loss on this short of wiping out a bunch of the driver system which could just make things worse. Bummer. I'll keep my eyes open for solutions but you need to keep reading because this plays a part later. This easily ranks up there with some of the most difficulty OS installs I've done and I've experimented with a lot of operating systems.

Stupid news:
Microsoft says it will let some new laptops ship with Win11 without a TPM chip, meaning it's really not necessary. I think anything that runs Win10 could run this, it's just MS being pushy. I labeled this stupid because while a hassle it's not bad like the next bit of news.

Bad news, or really, really stupid news
This is how I understand what I read... Microsoft will allow you to test Win11 with incompatible hardware, so long as it's close, they will even let you keep "testing" it after release but they will NOT grant you a license after it's released. Even if you have a Win10 license or pay for a Win 11 license if that system at any time errors and requires a re-install it will force you back to Win10. Permanently unless you come up on the requirements. Even if you had a working Win11 installed and had some other issue and just want to reinstall it will roll you back to Win10. Even crazier, 8th gen Intel may only meet minimum soft floor, meaning even 8th gen may on get one shot.

I'm not even a Windows user and this frustrates me, I can't imagine how annoying some of this is for some of you, particularly gamers or people who bought a new laptop within the last few years.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 28 June 2021, 17:38:18 »
So I am running w11 Pro in a VMWare box - not too shabby.  Also was able to activate it w/ my KMS activation tool :ninja:  Like what I'm seeing at the moment, but they really need to ditch some of the compatibility cr@p **cough** TPM **cough**

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 28 June 2021, 23:17:29 »
TPM is only half the problem and actually fixable, it's the GPU that's going to be the biggest problem.

There are laptops STILL being built that use MBR formatting, so no EFI or secureboot (MSI)) and others where, while they have a TPM chip, you can't enable it (MSI and ASUS). Both are fixable with a re-install and either a bios hack (not so easy) or a USB TPM chip. What you can't do is put a different GPU on your 7th gen Intel laptop without dedicated GPU.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 16:22:34 »
So, I have a good strong Windows 10 box that I semi-retired about a year ago (summer 2020) it has not been booted up since then. At the time everything was pretty much updated to the latest and greatest versions. Assuming that I do not ever re-connect it to the interwebs, is there any reason that I can't continue using it as-is pretty much indefinitely? Everything on it worked fine at the time, files, programs, etc. I am thinking of using it as a driver for watching video files on TV and listening to music files stored on external drives.

Plenty of things that I do on the computer that do not involve being online - remember a mere quarter of a century ago when most computers didn't connect?

There is something comforting in knowing that the bad guys can never get in the door, and external storage easily survives the death of any individual computer.

TL;DR - did MS build a sunset into Windows estranged from the internet?
 
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 June 2021, 16:24:38 by fohat.digs »
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 29 June 2021, 23:10:58 »
I doubt there is any kill switch, it would bring far too many lawsuits, especially if not disclosed ahead of time.

That system can be safe and run for a loong time, IF it isn't connected to the internet or a network.
If you do anything, including download movies and watch them on it though it can be infected, either through an injected file or through a network connection from an infected box on the network, which is the most likely means of infecting it, but being it's just a movie player, it wouldn't probably be a big deal to wipe and reinstall.  You could also throw Linux on it and harden it more, Linux usually works fine for media players.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 04:27:00 »
I was ticked to see that TPM 2.0 requirement, those of us on HEDT hardware (Intel's x99/x299 or TR40/x) are not compatible w/ w11 due to this requirement.  I'm not downgrading my hardware for an OS compatibility - so they lost me for their testing pool.  I have a feeling they will eventually drop this but that would be for the more workstation/enterprise focused desktops.  I would fully cross over to Linux, but again game developers refuse to support it (a majority of them, not all).

Considering Linux (mainly a modded Ubuntu 19.10 or 18.** variant) I think I now have a use for my old 960 EVO 500GB, might just toss a copy on it and let 'er rip.
I now exclusively use linux for gaming (well everything at home really), and in the last 2 years Proton compatibility on steam has improved dramatically, especially if you stay on debian/ubuntu based distros, my opensuse has a bit more troubles with some games.
So I decided to check on motherboards, first stop, my motherboard, it's a Gigabyte 370 hosting an 8700k, so it technically qualifies according to Microsoft. Gigabyte doesn't mention TPM in the specs, Intel lists nothing in the specs, and this is a problem. If no one says it, how will you know your system actually qualifies?
all my gigabytes motherboards (ok all are AM3 or AM3+) have no TPM included but a TPM header to add a proprietary TPM board, i have not checked your board but i would not be surprised it also has a header for it.

personally i already dislike windows 10 for its lack of user freedom so 11 is going to be a huge no for me, and none of my pc have any TPM so no from MS too :) I still feel that windows peaked at 2000 and since then only went downhill, more and more locked down and regressions since, while far less positive changes has been made. if only security was not a problem :)
the thing that i do not understand is that for a few years now windows's market share has been going down, and MS just continues to double down on the practices that makes users run away, yeah they still have a few years before corporate stupids understand that all their data is sent to MS and that windows compatibility is a myth that cost days and months to it departments everywhere but once they do there is no coming back.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 07:14:36 »
I now exclusively use linux for gaming (well everything at home really), and in the last 2 years Proton compatibility on steam has improved dramatically, especially if you stay on debian/ubuntu based distros, my opensuse has a bit more troubles with some games.
Arch based distros are also HEAVILY favored by Linux gamers, Manjaro in particular.

Top three are probably Ubuntu, Pop! and Manjaro with more experienced users using the latter two. Ubuntu really only makes the list because of the numbers of people using it in general, it actually tends to fight gamers and hold them back.

all my gigabytes motherboards (ok all are AM3 or AM3+) have no TPM included but a TPM header to add a proprietary TPM board, i have not checked your board but i would not be surprised it also has a header for it.
Mine is so small it's hard to say (mini-ITX), I haven't checked bios, I had an issue where i had my GPU out and was using the Intel IGPU and it doesn't really like running dual HDMI screens (or in my case dual HDMI and a Display port) so I couldn't see anything until you got beyond the bootloader. I have my GPU back in so I need to check but I'm not loading Win11 on this regardless, especially a questionable copy of it.

BTW, many of those "proprietary dongles" are just a dedicated usb header and almost  any of the chips will work.


the thing that i do not understand is that for a few years now windows market share has been going down, and MS just continues to double down on the practices that makes users run away,
People have been foretelling the end of days for the desktop for a long time, as such MS decided they needed the mobile market, every attempt at doing it in a normal way failed so they sacrificed Windows desktop on the altar of tablets in an attempt to claw their way to a few percentage points of the mobile market share. Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past. It hasn't really paid off, but the death of desktop computing was also greatly exaggerated.

2% market drop due to Ipad. PC industry experts - "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to cell phones. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to 2in1's. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to Chromebooks. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
And yet it keeps plodding along.

I think they've proclaimed this as often as they've claimed it was the "year of the Linux desktop", often saying it right along side each other. The funny part of that is Linux bypassed the desktop, it won the real race while everyone was looking the wrong direction. Forget the desktop, Linux took over the world.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #65 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:08:34 »
I think they've proclaimed this as often as they've claimed it was the "year of the Linux desktop", often saying it right along side each other. The funny part of that is Linux bypassed the desktop, it won the real race while everyone was looking the wrong direction. Forget the desktop, Linux took over the world.
still i'd love for companies to use linux for desktop, because windows is such a pain in the neck for pretty much everything that linux does half decently...
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:21:20 »

Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past.


My kids make me feel like a stranger in a strange land. I have a desktop, a laptop, and a smart phone. I only use the laptop when I am away from home, it gathers dust for weeks at a time (but when I am planning to travel I fire it up and make sure that it is up to date before I go). Otherwise, my phone is mostly a phone, I will look at emails when I am waiting in line or something, but little more.

My desktop is all-important to me, and I am on it for hours every day. I have a big desk, a big tower, a big keyboard, 2 mice, 2 fairly large monitors, and 5.1 speakers. I feel like a carpenter without his tools when I try to get by without it.

My kids, on the other hand, might as well have their phones grafted onto their hands. My daughter hasn't had a desktop since she went off to college, and even then I suspect that she seldom used her laptop except for school work. My son followed a similar path, although probably with some occasional gaming. Prior to college it had been constant gaming (ie hours per day every day) for several years (with the obligatory commensurate regular hardware upgrades).

Now, they live on their phones. Even when they come to visit me, sometimes for days at a time, they never even bother to bring their laptops along. When they show me something on their screen, I often have trouble even with my reading glasses. Details? Who needs 'em? If I actually want (need?) to see something in detail, I need a minimum of 15"-20" of screen (preferably more) to feel like I can really see what's going on.

They watch theatrical movies on their phones! Is that the future?
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #67 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 08:41:12 »
i kinda agree with fohat here, i just use a laptop a lot more because it is much lower power than the desktop, but i still like my desktop better and phone is for phone, gps and messages.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 01 July 2021, 23:01:57 »
I do too but the industry always goes full panic.

I don't think phone users realize how inefficient it all is because their nose is buried so deep in the phone that they don't notice it took 20 minutes to do or find absolutely ANYTHING, phones are like a black hole for time. Those around them don't notice either because they do the same thing, meanwhile anyone around them without a phone to bury their nose in is standing around going "come on, hurry the hell up".

Phone users and pictures especially drive me bonkers, "I love how my pics are all in one place!" Great, now find the one you took 2 years ago that has your login information. "Ummm, I know it's here, I just need to find it..." Cue ten minutes of scrolling, then a message comes in, distracts them, forces then to start over and spend 15 more minutes looking for the picture. "I think I lost that when I changed phones". Meanwhile 30 minutes has passed and I already found another way.  I can't tell you how much time I've spent waiting on people to find a picture they took of an error message only to find (another 30 minutes later) that it's just an generic error message that does nothing to help diagnose the problem. I stopped waiting on the pictures years ago. For me, cell phones have actually become less useful as time went on, all the while becoming more and more capable. Devs spent all this time trying to make things work with the limited power that they never stopped to make sure it was even practical to do so in the first place, so now that the phone has the power no one notices because it's just always been garbage.


I use my desktop 99% of the time.
Phone is a phone/gps/messenger system/wifi diagnosis.
I use a laptop when I'm on the go, around the house or out and about but I usually use a 12in or smaller, and only recently moved to a 14 since I stopped doing so much traveling for work.  Finding a good sub 12in laptop with a good screen is hard to find and even fewer are well made and have even decent sound quality. There's no reason my cell phone should sound better than a laptop.

I have 6(?) tablets and owned 7 or 8(?) total, I think I bought two cheap ones and the rest just found me. I just don't even think to grab them, mostly because they don't have my logins which is mostly because they're just a pain to do anything real. I can see how they'd be handy in some situations, particularly network diagnosis,  but those situations are just rare for me, so rare they lack my account info for anything and setting them up would take longer than just grabbing the phone and laptop which are already setup and the laptop would be preferred when it came to actually fixing it anyhow. My mom on the other hand uses hers for Kindle and uses it at least as much as her desktop.
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Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 02 July 2021, 08:59:29 »
I mainly stick to using my Desktops between work and home, and if i need to be mobile I use my laptop - phone is mainly for texts, photos for when I need to get a shot for a co-worker/fellow tech(which I access via desktop since I can sort by date to speed things up), and calls as I rarely use GPS since I map out what I need prior to leaving the house.  Only time I use the GPS is if I'm out of state in an area I've never been or I don't frequently travel to (ie Charlotte NC or Florida).
  On the camera front I use one of my DSLR's for real shots that I need to print etc, the phone one's are meh imo - small sensors can only grab soo much information in a shot.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline samuxip

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 09 July 2021, 03:54:09 »
Windows 11 is expected to publicly roll out later this year, and ahead of the same, Microsoft has revealed some more information on the update cycle of its new operating system. The company has stated that Windows 11 will get one new release every year. This is in contrast to Windows 10, which would get two major software releases, twice each year. The new update schedule may mean less frequent updates, but could also translate to lesser bugs as Windows gets just one update each year. The new Windows 11 updates could arrive alongside new Windows 10 updates during fall each year.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 July 2021, 03:55:56 by samuxip »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 09 July 2021, 05:50:58 »
Soooo a service pack.
And by the second expect Win12.
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Offline aleck

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #72 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 16:00:07 »
Won't update to it (at least manually, they'll probably shove it down my throat anyway), looks like hot garbage and I just don't find it too appealing, Windows in general just isn't as good as it used to be, at least in my opinion that is. I don't even game anymore so when this computer of mine dies I'll most likely switch to a Macbook, Apple's doing some great stuff with their ARM based M1 chip, and since it's just the beginning for them, seems like a no-brainer for me down the line.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #73 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 17:20:31 »
So you'll switch to a platform with a similar aesthetic instead of using w11, ok. .   Personally I would just switch to Linux to save on the Apple tax and non-consumer/right-to-repair friendly Apple.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #74 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 21:34:01 »
Darthbaggins is correct here, I can't think of any example of blatantly copying Mac than this.
Not that While I would say it;s better to use an original than a copy, architecture changes are not always easy for most people and in this case it won't be cheap to do either. Free and open source Mac software is few and far between and you can expect to spend quite a bit extra trying to match what you can do on Windows for free (or worse, what you could do on Linux).

That said, the M1 macs are probably one of the best general computing laptops you can buy. Not sure I'd buy one (wait for m2), but they are pretty nice.
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Online HungerMechanic

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #75 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 22:24:00 »

People have been foretelling the end of days for the desktop for a long time, as such MS decided they needed the mobile market, every attempt at doing it in a normal way failed so they sacrificed Windows desktop on the altar of tablets in an attempt to claw their way to a few percentage points of the mobile market share. Better a 3% stake in the future than 90% stake in the past. It hasn't really paid off, but the death of desktop computing was also greatly exaggerated.

2% market drop due to Ipad. PC industry experts - "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to cell phones. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to 2in1's. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
2% market drop due to Chromebooks. PC industry experts -  "OMG it's the end times for the desktop!!!
And yet it keeps plodding along.

Microsoft, moving away from desktop computing because of fear and opportunism, deserved to pay a financial price. Especially given the methods they used.

Despite scorning the desktop userbase that made them, desktop hasn't gone away, and the pandemic has created a resurgence for personal computing.

If they had had the courage to be who they are, supporting and enhancing desktop operations and OS the past decade, they could be reaping more from this harvest.

Desktop means - easy access to many applications at once, unified copy/paste/clip/conversion functions across the whole system and available to user, dedicated keyboard + mouse smallUI/many choice interactions, deep nested systems, and use of powerful peripherals from actual keyboard, high-resolution pointing device, and huge 4K+ monitor that can display much more information than any phone.

It's sad to see that while keyboards have made a huge comeback [since there's no replacing desktop productivity + pc gaming], Microsoft's lack of leadership in desktop and the rush to convergence has meant no corresponding organized push to make use of huge PC monitors at huge DPI to create unprecedented multitasking + HIDPI text rendering experiences. Desktop peaked around 2006 as the core of the computing experience, and since then has fragmented into many devices. It's anarchy, and desktop needs to be restored to its rightful place. [But in a more modern context integrated with the mobile devices.]

Online HungerMechanic

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #76 on: Sun, 11 July 2021, 22:30:48 »
I guess what I mean is, desktop should not have been neglected just because Microsoft wanted to chase market share in the growing sector.

Desktop should be thriving, not just plodding along. Lack of leadership in this area has meant that although mobiles were allowed to take advantage of technological developments [including HIDPI] starting after 2010 or so, this is precisely when Microsoft desktops began to really stagnate. Assumption was standard DPI for years and years, also using Microsoft's inferior post-XP font rendering.

You see glimpses of what could be with things like the Surface Studio [3:2 ratio high-DPI Windows-friendly display] and its interesting pointing device, the whole package is something no phone could do. It takes advantage and even tries to drive developments. Such a limited implementation and effort, though, while Microsoft burned though countless wads of cash chasing mobile market share and nearly destroying Windows to do so.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #77 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 04:52:31 »
Depends.
Who's to stay MS hasn't reaped any benefit or that it isn't still to come? Clearly they expected it to translate into phone sales but look at Surface tablet sales and image as being a Mac competitor. Win10 ushered in a new income source by selling ads and data, and today Chrome is making huge inroads on Chrome and Firefox, that could allow them to make a push into the cell phone browser space. Was this the intention, no, but it all came from a shift in perspective at the company that was kicked of by going after the mobile market.

One thing I stressed when Windows phone failed is this is not Blackberry or Palm, Microsoft is not in the same boat, they have a TON of investments and a massively insane amount of liquid capital and power. Blackberry can't just go buy up a competitor, MS can. It's the same with Intel, both can just sit around, hire experts and hedge their bets 5-10 years in the future.


As for them slacking, that's what MS, and frankly pretty much EVERY U.S. company does, it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate. When you have a ton of money and total market dominance you can just sit on your laurels and watch the money roll in and when you're down you just buy your way back. If you really dig into the history of Microsoft you'll learn that for their size and market share they're really are not an innovative company at all. What they can't buy they sue you into the ground then buy you for pennies on the dollar or they just copy you and if you complain then sue you into oblivion or force you into capitulation. Microsoft's has operated this way from the start.
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Offline yui

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #78 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 08:18:49 »
So you'll switch to a platform with a similar aesthetic instead of using w11, ok. .   Personally I would just switch to Linux to save on the Apple tax and non-consumer/right-to-repair friendly Apple.
won't be upgrading either, but then i already did the jump mostly with 10 to linux, only my work pc is on 10, and it does not have any TPM, or DirectX12 video card, so it will not upgrade hopefully
i kinda wish to see others jump in apple's tracks and start making alternative architecture CPU that are actually powerful, be it POWER, RISC-V or ARM (kinda rather it be RISC or POWER, with the whole nVidia thing) and get some powerful yet efficient linux pc, but not having to get apple tax.
As for them slacking, that's what MS, and frankly pretty much EVERY U.S. company does, it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate. When you have a ton of money and total market dominance you can just sit on your laurels and watch the money roll in and when you're down you just buy your way back. If you really dig into the history of Microsoft you'll learn that for their size and market share they're really are not an innovative company at all. What they can't buy they sue you into the ground then buy you for pennies on the dollar or they just copy you and if you complain then sue you into oblivion or force you into capitulation. Microsoft's has operated this way from the start.
and yeah as far as i learnt MS and Apple's history are ones of stolen innovations and back stabbing, Gates may be a philanthropist now but he got his fortune lying and stealing.
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 12 July 2021, 21:52:43 »
Gates may be a philanthropist now but he got his fortune lying and stealing.
You don't get that wealthy without exploiting people.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #80 on: Tue, 13 July 2021, 08:42:24 »

it's cheaper to legislate than to innovate.


Tangental but relevant - Ronald Reagan succeeded (on behalf of his billionaire masters) in scuttling the understanding that capitalism depends on appropriate regulation to survive long-term and prevent moneyed interests from eroding the common good.

For over 40 years I have been scratching my head in disbelief that he was able to convince millions of people that "tha gub'ment" did not have the best interest of the people at heart but yet "Big Business" did.
"We're playing for real here."
- Joe Biden 2021-09-10

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 04 September 2021, 22:33:59 »
Ads in Win 11 are now crashing the taskbar and start menu.
Good job Microsoft!

How does an ad even crash them?
I guess it's easy when it's so integrated to stop people from stopping them. How much longer will you be able opt out of them, Bing already runs (two instances of Edge) in the taskbar unless you disable it.



Someone on Slashdot asked why MS is going down this road knowing it's worse for customers.
Because they can. You didn't leave when 8 came out, or 8.1 or 10, why would you leave now? They know they have you and you aren't going anywhere. "I can go to Mac!" Sure, pal, you go and buy a whole new computer,  just to change OS, don't forget all your other software licenses that may not carry over.  And what will you do with that spare computer? Let your kids use it? Did they actually lose a customer or did you just indoctrinate your kid into that being normal? You going to convert to Linux? You haven't yet.

They have the business sales, which is the bread and butter and pretty much every PC ships with Windows already.  Individual sales are not where they make money, if you think they do, go look at the number of reviews for Windows licenses vs processor sales on Newegg. A single AMD processor alone will have more reviews than Windows 10 which is years older, clearly few are actually buying licenses, meaning there's a whole lot of people with either old licenses, running Linux or using unlicensed or pirated copies. We know it's not Linux. They know they have nothing to fear of you leaving.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #82 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 10:14:45 »
I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).

But now I am basically retired and don't need to concern myself with interacting with "the office" any more. My current Windows is 10 version 21H1 and so I have probably gotten pretty close to 11 already. But I ignore Edge and other "cloud" stuff as much as possible, and keep all my data on local drives.

I like Mint Cinnamon very well (after a few years of straight Ubuntu), and there used to be LTS versions every couple of years - so that was approximately my update interval. Do you recommend climbing the update ladder relatively more often or less often?
 
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Offline StickyBlueJuice

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #83 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 11:55:53 »
Ads in Win 11 are now crashing the taskbar and start menu.
Good job Microsoft!
Classic!

I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).
 
I made the jump to Pop!_OS a couple months back and I haven't looked back.
There's nothing this beauty won't run.
I need Microsoft Teams for work, but damn it if they didn't have a preview version in their shop. Functions super so far for me.
Not all games run equally well. And I ran into a problem the other day. Bought DOOM Eternal, but the driver version it recommends isn't out for Linux yet.
So a few minor annoyances so far, compared to a lifetime of irritations over HAVING to use this damned Windows OS, I will gladly take that.
Not saying this is what you do with your OS, I was just giving my perspective on Linux, and where it's at.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #84 on: Sun, 05 September 2021, 23:20:24 »
I guess it is time to make the jump to Mint Cinnamon. I have been dabbling with Linux for well over a decade but it has always been secondary to Windows (for multiple reasons).

But now I am basically retired and don't need to concern myself with interacting with "the office" any more. My current Windows is 10 version 21H1 and so I have probably gotten pretty close to 11 already. But I ignore Edge and other "cloud" stuff as much as possible, and keep all my data on local drives.

I like Mint Cinnamon very well (after a few years of straight Ubuntu), and there used to be LTS versions every couple of years - so that was approximately my update interval. Do you recommend climbing the update ladder relatively more often or less often?
Mint is great for learning but the upgrade path SUCKS.

Seriously, I don't understand how they can make such a great distro but flub the update process so badly. They recently started pushing automatic updates because people were not updating, we stopped updating because they screwed them up so bad. I tried upgrading from 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 on 4 different systems, 2 were fresh installs and it failed on every one of them. Cinnamon and to a lesser degree Gnome also has issues with dual screens

While I think Mint is a great start I'd recommend one of 3 distros once you have the hang of it...
Ubuntu - Ignore the hate, it's a good distro for new and old users, gaming however is bad.
Pop! - Great distro, great desktop tweaks, MUCH better than Ubuntu if you game yet retains Ubuntu compatibility.
Manjaro - Arch based, which means you can use the AUR which gives it more available software than Ubuntu PPAs. It's a bit more raw, but that's not always a bad thing.

Ubuntu and Pop! handle upgrades/updates better than Mint, which like I said is TERRIBLE. Manjaro you never do a distro update, it just rolls along constantly evolving, this is why I ended up in the Arch branch after Mint flubbed so bad. It never goes out of date. You don't need to worry about support ending or this or that not being supported by your version, it's all one version, it just updates as it goes along. It's not without an occasional hiccup and the closer you get to pure Arch the more problems it brings but Manjaro deals with it pretty well and it's rare anything goes really wrong.

Ubuntu holds back GPU and WINE updates (A LOT) and makes it a chore to install newer versions plus 32bit support, it's so bad people think they do it on purpose to dissuade you from doing it, making gaming a hassle on it. Pop! on the other hand embraces it, same with Manjaro, but it's not consistent with what they work with, one will do X game better than Y and the other will do Y better than X. Both however seem to be the choice for gamers when you look at the Proton database.

Me, I'd go with Manjaro but I can totally get the love for Pop! If you like tinkering with your OS a little to get more out of it, go with Manjaro (still less tweaking than with Windows), if you just want to click a few buttons and not mess with it, go with Pop! In either case, getting something working can sometimes be a bit of a hassle but once you do the OS tends to fade away into the background, AS IT SHOULD.  That was something I was kind of surprised with Windows lately, something is ALWAYS vying for your attention, either a program wanting permissions, wanting to be default or wanting an update. It's constant. Mac has gone a similar route but to nowhere near the degree Windows does. For as much hands off as they are supposed to be they sure do need a lot of hand holding.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #85 on: Mon, 06 September 2021, 13:52:12 »

getting something working can sometimes be a bit of a hassle but once you do the OS tends to fade away into the background, AS IT SHOULD. 


Thank you for you thoughtful and detailed response.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I am not at all concerned about some of the nuisances that you listed. I do not game (beyond some occasional mindless pastimes like Solitaire that can hardly be considered to be in the same universe as "Gaming") so that is off the table entirely. I like good pictures and good sound but not beyond what mid-to-slightly-upper-level consumer gear provides.

And when I "upgrade" every couple of years or so, I back up all of my data and do a full fresh clean re-install of OS and programs, sometimes/usually to a new hard drive. As far as small intermediate steps I usually accept them when they are offered, but I don't think that is what you are talking about when you say "upgrade" ....

Otherwise I am not a power user and rarely go "under the hood" to tinker around beyond occasionally looking for arcane installation for peripherals or hardware that I have had for a while but don't want to replace. "Barely scratching the surface" is probably as far as I ever go.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #86 on: Mon, 06 September 2021, 21:29:37 »
Thank you for you thoughtful and detailed response.

Otherwise I am not a power user and rarely go "under the hood" to tinker around beyond occasionally looking for arcane installation for peripherals or hardware that I have had for a while but don't want to replace. "Barely scratching the surface" is probably as far as I ever go.
You're welcome.
Since you're used to it and making a major change, I'd stick with a fresh install of Mint for now, it will make the transition easier, as you get more comfortable then start looking at other distros.

It takes a bit to really break away from Windows and you will do a lot more learning than you think those first few months. Using it occasionally or as a second OS really is not the same as using it and it alone, you always have an easy out. Don't give up! The longer you go the more comfortable you get  and the happier you will likely be that you stuck it out. It's been years, I still occasionally wonder from time to time if the fight is worth the hassle (usually with games) but the longer you're gone from it the worse Windows looks when you return. When you first start you compare everything to Windows and since you're used to it and comfortable (because you've used it for years) it's going to mostly be bad comparisons. Why doesn't Linux do it this way, not that, grrrr... You need to reach a point where you start seeing where Linux gets it right and Windows gets it wrong and it takes time. Stick it out, find those bright spots, once you reach that point you will never look at Windows the same. I'm not saying you won't ever get the urge to fall back to Windows again, face it, Windows is easy not just because of familiarity but also because it's the dominant OS, but it does get easier. (note: Steam is really making strides to make running Windows programs even easier, not just games but everything, which will eliminate much of the dominance issue)


The following is just a bit more info for you.
Mint is now going to push people more for updates and it includes normal updates as well as version updates (i.E. Mint 20 to Mint 21), it's the latter that's the problem. If you do long term support it's less often however it's not just the base system they slow updates for, it's everything. For example you couldn't get VLC 3.0 on Mint 19 despite coming out around the same time, they never tested or verified it so it never went in the repo. Firefox and other software updates can also lag far behind, it's how they get stability but sometimes those new features are needed or at least really handy. You may not have liked the Firefox changes but VLC 3.0 brought some changes to sorting and networking that were beneficial and needed by some. There are workarounds but you have to do the whole PPA thing.

Your fresh install approach is good, but it's a Windows holdover, it's not really needed in Linux which has ways to actually combat the tons of worthless garbage that collects, unlike Windows. Sure if you remove something an old config file may remain but it's doing nothing and takes little space but it's not like Windows where the registry never forgets and the system is always looking and verifying things. It's also in a place where you can probably find and delete it if you wanted (.config or .local in your home directory, viewable by hitting ctrl-h or a setting for the file manager) rather than deep within one of several hidden subfolders and where the only way to see it is an obscure setting elsewhere in the OS and still not removing registry entries.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #87 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 08:35:10 »

version updates (i.E. Mint 20 to Mint 21), it's the latter that's the problem.

If you do long term support it's less often


I don't understand because they make it look/seem like all the recent versions are LTS these days.

And also, my most recent install is from 2021 but it is still called "20.2" what is that about? Will there be an actual "21" ?

 
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #88 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 22:11:24 »
Mint numbers are not related to year, it just happened to line up in 2020, there will be a version 21 and when it comes they will flub the update just like they always do.
If you're willing to wipe and re-install, good, it's the only way to be certain it will work,  but why is it that everyone else can do this, including Ubuntu which Mint is based on (as well as every other one based on it).

Again, this is why no one was updating older versions, now they're annoyed because no one is updating the older versions.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Windows 11 (to be announced June 24, due in October)
« Reply #89 on: Tue, 07 September 2021, 22:19:08 »

Mint numbers are not related to year, it just happened to line up in 2020


Oh, yeah, right, I was remembering Ubuntu and the x.4 and x.10 schedule.

Unless I opt in for automatic upgrades, I can still do it in my own time, I hope and assume.
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