A sad day in Filco Ninja Land

[Lanx]

why are you ppl arguing? if you can hear it, then great you have good hearing, if you cannot hear it, then too bad for you, you're old or have lost your hearing. I know those of you who do not hear it do not want to admit that you're old and lost hearing or are loosing it, so the only explanation you have is that other ppl are just "hearing" things, but that's the case. Trust me, when i was told I was color blind, i didn't believe it, i said but i see colors!, they just happen to be the wrong colors.

seriously take online hearing tests or do some of the links for the frequencies i posted, otherwise it's just gonna be more of the
he said,
ripster said

kind of deals.

[redpill]

I am appalled to see that we, as a community here on Geekhack has not come closer to consensus to this issue.

That's because the issue is being deliberately obscured.  They have led you to the conclusion that this is a single issue, but it is not.  The issue that you describe in several of your points is the typical manner of mechanical switch ping that comes with the territory of mechanical keyboards.  Some individual switches make more noise than others.  That is very different than the "Filco Ring" issue wherein the entire keyboard resonates regardless of which key is pressed, aside from the fact the larger keys make it worse.  That's because in this case it is not the individual springs that are the issue, it is the metal plate that is amplifying their normal resonance.

In my case I have a Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Browns and a KBC Poker with Cherry Browns on the same desk, in the same environment, and the difference is so unmistakable no one hearing it in person could possibly claim it is a matter of just switch noise.  To me it is obvious this is a design or manufacturing issue related to the metal plate on the Filco.

I didn't buy this Filco to complain about it, or try to destroy it with expanding insulating foam (which I might have done, will know more tomorrow); I bought it because I thought it was the best full size keyboard that had Cherry Browns on it.  But the ring was there, and at first it was just a minor annoyance but when I had people coming into my office and pointing it out I knew it wasn't just me.  I can't live my entire office life in the key of B flat.  Sorry.

[noodles256]

its a sad day in filco ninja land

[litster]

I think you guys are arguing just so you can type more key strokes on your favorite keyboards, hear more pings.  I am waiting patiently to receive noodles Filco blues.  My new white Filco reds pings, too, if I go listen **ping** for it.  But when I type I am too focus to **ping** hear anything.... **ping**

Aaaarg, just lost my chain of thought...

[noodles256]

you got the tracking # right?

[litster]

you got the tracking # right?

Yes sir!  The tracking number is working.  I hope the UPS truck is not going to shake too much and settle the springs and get rid of the pings.

Oh, I forgot about this book that got for my kid, when he could hear high pitch noise:



Quack!

[drsauced]

I guess we can all think of it this way: none of those rubber dome keyboards even has a ring/ping/zing.  So there you go, enjoy!

[noodles256]

quack

[sordna]

It would be more interesting if they generated different tones.  I'm getting tired of B♭

I'm getting C and C#. We should swap some keys. How is that expanding foam doing? Hope it doesn't expand forcefully and bends/cracks your PCB. Also, does it say if it's non-conductive ?

[The Solutor]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 19123[/ATTACH]

The new logo...

[redpill]

I'm getting C and C#. We should swap some keys. How is that expanding foam doing? Hope it doesn't expands forcefully and bends/cracks your PCB. Also, does it say if it's non-conductive ?

 
The foam should be cured now, it's at the office so I'll check when I get there.  It's flexible, and should be non-conductive as it's mostly polyurethane and for use in home insulation applications where I would think non-conductivity would be required.  So we should be good on those two fronts.  I think the problem will be that because it is so effective in getting into every crevasse that it will interfere with the switches making contact with the PCB.  Keeping my fingers crossed, but I expect we may need LEGO burial detail later today.

[The Solutor]

You can use also the spray streamers (i don't know how they are exactly called in english, i mean the ones used in parties) should be way easier to use them to fill the tiny space between the switches

[redpill]

Silly string  I don't think I would have been able to get it far enough in there.  As it was, the only way to get the foam in far enough was to rig up an extra straw that was narrower than the one that came on the bottle and splice them together.

[The Solutor]

Silly string

Exactly, tank you.

As it was, the only way to get the foam in far enough was to rig up an extra straw that was narrower than the one that came on the bottle and splice them together.

For similar tasks I usually use the cap from a different spray can, like the one that comes with some spray electrical deoxidizers, not all of them are compatible, but with a decent number of donor cans the right one shouldn't be too hard to find.

[penpoints]

I am appalled to see that we, as a community here on Geekhack has not come closer to consensus to this issue.

So far I've seen two Filco keyboards that have the "Filco Ring". My other Filcos have had little or no pinging, or if they ping it's dampened right away. IMO there's a big difference between some slight or moderate "pinging" - and a loud, annoying resonance (of one note) in a keyboard's metal plate. This isn't a trivial issue, like a shine-mark on a spacebar. It isn't imaginary or FUD. "Sound samples or it didn't happen" isn't a valid criticism, because when samples are provided they're called fake. Anyway, I think it's hard to get a good recording of this.

Some other keyboards have a known problem with ringing. See for example this review (linked to from the GH keyboard review section) of the Matias Tactile Pro 3, especially this part:

"Sadly, the Tactile Pro 3 does not achieve the same clean sound as other ALPS keyboards including the FILCO Zero range. My FILCO Zero XM has the crispest, driest sound of any mechanical keyboard, but the Tactile Pro 3 is quite the opposite: you’re treated to an excessive level of spring vibration from the switches, that gives it a constant high pitched ringing sound as you type. The switch mounting also gives the strokes a higher pitch sound, and the overall effect is somewhat disturbing. Spring reverberation is to be expected in mechanical keyboards, but it's absent from my Cherry MX blue FILCO and it’s absent from the ATK and FILCO Zero XM ALPS keyboards. I do hear it on my Cherry MX brown FILCO, but it’s not disturbingly loud as it is with the Tactile Pro 3. Placing the keyboard onto carpet does damp this excess vibration nicely though, so it’s probably a flaw in the way the switches are mounted."

I didn't try carpet, but I did put my ringing Filcos on a double layer of rubber shelf-liner and it didn't help one bit. I'm not a keyboard expert, but "it’s probably a flaw in the way the switches are mounted" sounds plausible to me. For the Filcos it isn't a general problem - it's just limited to some individual keyboards.

[morethanless]

@redpill
Please post some pictures of your foam calamity.

[redpill]

@redpill
Please post some pictures of your foam calamity.

New thread coming shortly.

[The Solutor]

The sustain on this thread is terrible.

 
Do you mean the sustain effect meant to get longer sounds ? :happy:

[sordna]

Haha. Sustain is good for things like guitars. Fixed bridge beats a tremolo. No interference, no detune of some strings while you bend others, better sound transfer, and better sustain. That video for guitar tremolo spring silencing was good though.

[noodles256]

mike my reverb

aka mike tyson.

[genzeleam]

I'm not usually the kind of person that bashes someone, but:

First of all, had you done any real research on mechanical keyboards before throwing money out the window, you would have known mechanical keyboards are generally louder than their rubber-dome counterparts. Mechanical keyboards are known for their precision, tactile feel, and (for the most part) general lack of needing to bottom out keys to produce a successful keystroke.

Second of all, you should have done your research. I happen to love the sound of both browns and blues though I prefer brown for everyday use. Mechanical keyboards will sound a lot louder when keys are bottomed out as opposed to when they're pushed just to the actuation point. Everyone used to rubber-dome keyboards will be bottoming out keys when switching to mechanical because just about all rubber-dome boards are made to be bottomed out for successful keystrokes.

Edit: Old post but I had to.

[penpoints]

I'm not usually the kind of person that bashes someone, but:

First of all, had you done any real research on mechanical keyboards before throwing money out the window, you would have known mechanical keyboards are generally louder than their rubber-dome counterparts.

Obviously you didn't read any of the other posts in this thread.

I've been using mechanical keyboards for many years. The Filco keyboards I returned to Amazon were very different from my other Filco's. The ones I sent back were badly defective.

I didn't "throw money out the window" - I received a full refund, including for the shipping, both ways.
 
But thanks anyway for your concern. :music:

[litster]

*bite-lip* Bilco!

[redpill]

I didn't "throw money out the window" - I received a full refund, including for the shipping, both ways.
 
But thanks anyway for your concern. :music:

Imagine that, a discerning consumer who would rather get his money's worth out of a $150 keyboard than please the Filco Sycophants on GH by trying to ignore the unignorable.  Kudos to you sir.

[keyboardlover]

Hey genzeleam...

[oddsratio]

Okay, so I took the keycaps off the T Key (pinger) and the G Key (non-pinger). In this sample, you hear the T first and then the G and then the T again. I had to hold it upside down over my macbook to get the mic recording to work.

[alaricljs]

Seriously?

[oddsratio]

Does that mean it's bad, or that I am nitpicking too much? I hope it's the latter.

[alaricljs]

In my somewhat limited experience, that's a pretty standard Cherry switch.

[oddsratio]

In my somewhat limited experience, that's a pretty standard Cherry switch.

I figured that before I typed on the Poker, but then again, that doesn't have a metal plate for sound to reverberate from. If I pay attention, it ends up sounding like redpill's sample on page 4 during a real typing session.

[alaricljs]

That's why some of us keep ranting for samples and that the issue doesn't exist.  I won't believe that a Filco is the solution to 'needs more cowbell' until I hear a sample that proves it.

[alaricljs]

Seeing as how there are serious keyboard collectors I wouldn't be surprised if they could resell it at their normal rate.

[The Solutor]

Yeah

Even filco boards.... :pound:

[ethics-]

Well ****.  I started noticing the pinging in my MJ-2 TKL w/ blues last night.

[ethics-]

Nah rip, I used to be on your side about this.  I figured that people were just being overcritical or had really sensitive hearing.  I was typing in dead silence last night and could definitely hear pinging with every key press.

[looserboy]

shouldnt make a ninja zink zoink bing? and disappear? (lol sry^^) all the filcos i tested yesterday havent had this pingthing-problem^^
and i ve tested over 10 filcos and 5 das.

could it be that you re expecting too much from a 150 board and are too sensitive in that case,
all solid manufactured plates have the ability to transfer sound i dont think they re wrong manufactured. and people who bought this  first time and have had rubberdomes before should try other boards before complaining at all^^.

even my mx11900 sometime pings if i am hard concentrated on this behavior. and the mx11900 is like a rock on my desk.
you could make near every mechanical keyboard this sound, if you want to. (bottoming out makes this sound, hard pressing makes this sound too, snapping the switch makes this sound too, every press makes this sound far or less ) your desks are possibly a reason too. light wood or other materials make sounds even louder too.

and i agree 100% with ripster...##

 filco has a superb quality management. there is nothing wrong with your keyboards maybe with yourself

[keyboardlover]

I've used like 3 or 4 keyboards with browns, and only the tenkeyless Filco had the ringing issue.

None of my other Filcos do it.

[alaricljs]

And I have 2 Filco tenkeyless w/ brown and they make any untoward noise.

[litster]

Decision, decision.  Should I get a Prius and get an artificial engine noise maker, or should I get a BMW M3 and complain about the raspy exhaust?

[keyboardlover]

Wrong. Get an Infiniti G37 with neither issue.

[litster]

But the G37 is still much noisier than the Prius.  I am returning the G37.  I am going to buy a Prius and drive on the right lane.  Wait, I will still drive on the left lane to annoy the noisy, fast, G37s and M3s.

[keyboardlover]

G37's are pretty quiet. I drove one.

Their engines sound very nice, like a Topre.

[alaricljs]

They fart if you get real close?

[keyboardlover]

I have actually not experienced the Topre fart personally. But I believe that some people have.

I am not ripster.

[litster]

So rubber dome is Prius, Cherries are M3, and Topre is G37.  What would Alps and BS been?

[redpill]

or should I get a BMW M3 and complain about the raspy exhaust?

E46 M3 I assume you mean, the V8 in the E92 doesn't rasp.  But your analogy is invalid for several reasons:

1) All stock E46 M3s have raspy exhaust, it's consistent and deliberate.  The Filco ring is neither.

2) There are numerous after market options that eliminate or change the character of the exhaust rasp.  These options are not only numerous but typically cost 2% or less of the car's new purchase value.  There is no easy solution to a loudly ringing Filco.

[keyboardlover]

So rubber dome is Prius, Cherries are M3, and Topre is G37.  What would Alps and BS been?

 
Ford and Buick.

[uphillcastle]

Me caps have worn off already. All shiny where my tips have been at them. Even on the keyboard where my hand has rested. They should make keycaps shiny to begin with.

[uphillcastle]

Its them bloody badgers at my cabbage patch again.

[keyboardlover]

Well GeekHack IS the best of all those other forums.

With one huge exception, of course.