Why You Shouldn't Buy An Ergonomic Keyboard

[dotancohen]

I just came across this interesting viewpoint on ergonomic keyboards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18qO2B5-UL4&feature=related

What think the pros?

[cbf123]

The person in the video has their elbows way further out than necessary to align their hands with the angle of the ergo keyboard.  Their comments about moving from the elbow for the non-ergo board but not for the ergo board makes no sense...I definitely move at the elbow on my ergo board when going for the function keys.

I think they just don't like ergo boards.

Also, there are a wide variety of "ergo" boards.  MS Natural, physically separated, Maltron/Kinesis, etc.  All different.

[Findecanor]

I think the point is valid about the outlier keys being too far away from the home position on those flat curved keyboards.

I don't think that the Microsoft keyboards are that bad: they are basically straight keyboards that are split in the middle, with the keys in the middle being bigger.
The problems it that the followers (Logitech, "Smart"-fish etc.) don't get that -- their entire keyboards layouts are curved. If the key layout should be curved, it should be the other way, around each hand, not away from them.

[fossala]

I just watched some of his/her videos and he/she talks utter bollocks. Everything he/she looks it is an exaggerated version of real world movements.

[arplod]

She also has the worst scissor-action out there. Same as their last effort and all of their products in general: Looks great, its clear a lot of design effort has been expended but it fails on basic engineering.

But I do think that ergonomics are a waste of time. I think you should swap your keyboard often between different types, or if you have an adjustable keyboard, shift it around - that's what I do and I've never had a problem. A lot of people develop this problem because they stick with what they're given.

[hoggy]

Gah,  Why you shouldn't buy this ergonomic keyboard would be a much better title.  

arpod has something - swap often.  Although adding a maltron or an kinesis advantage (or even a datahand) in there wouldn't be a bad idea.

To be fair, I cba to watch more than a few seconds.

[shrap]

Lost me in the first five seconds - she starts out with "an ergonomic split keyboard...." when she is clearly not using an ergonomic split keyboard. The Microsoft and Logitech "Arc" designs look neat but aren't different enough from a normal keyboard to make much difference.

[Lanx]

dear lord, is she dead? those arms/hands/wrists are that of a corpse.

btw like many said, microsoft arc ergonomic keyboard... not so much. it looks cool, that's it.

[sordna]

What a bad video... probably has never even seen a real ergonomic keyboard!

[dotancohen]

Thanks, I figured that she was full of it.

[dotancohen]

But I do think that ergonomics are a waste of time. I think you should swap your keyboard often between different types, or if you have an adjustable keyboard, shift it around - that's what I do and I've never had a problem. A lot of people develop this problem because they stick with what they're given.

I agree with the "swap often" principle, I even have a monitor stand so that I can occasionally stand while I code. Don't just swap your keyboard, change your body position as well.

I will say that typing on the rubber dome MS Natural 4000 for long periods is easier on the arms and shoulders, but typing on the Cherry Brown Ducky is much easier on the fingers.

[Lanx]

I will say that typing on the rubber dome MS Natural 4000 for long periods is easier on the arms and shoulders, but typing on the Cherry Brown Ducky is much easier on the fingers.

this is why i modded my msnatural 4k with cherry browns, only ppl who have used the ms ergo 4k can appreciate it. it's just such a great ergo keyboard.

[dotancohen]

this is why i modded my msnatural 4k with cherry browns, only ppl who have used the ms ergo 4k can appreciate it. it's just such a great ergo keyboard.

Nice! I did see that once:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10510

What was wrong with the MS controller? And how did you cut the original PCB? Can I PM you with any questions because I've been thinking of doing just that for a long time.

[Lanx]

sure if you want, but you might want to read this one first
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments

it's my second version (that i've dropped cuz of J-O-B) the thread is more detailed and meant as a "follow along" for others.

oh and it's "prettier" cuz well, my first one (that i'm currently using) has been mocked so heavily for being ugly =(

[dotancohen]

Wow, that is some work! I was hoping to either make or have made [1] some PCBs that I could dremel out the room for then spaghetti into the existing wiring. I know that there will be unexpected snags along the way, but hey we deal with that!

[1] http://www.expresspcb.com/

[sordna]

Well, if your projected time spent is more valuable than 2-3 hundred bucks, you might alternatively want to consider a good ergonomic keyboard like a Kinesis Advantage. It's not only very ergonomic, but has an amazing controller as well, with 2 layers fully programmable on board (without software) and lots of other features.

[dotancohen]

Well, if your projected time spent is more valuable than 2-3 hundred bucks, you might alternatively want to consider a good ergonomic keyboard like a Kinesis Advantage. It's not only very ergonomic, but has an amazing controller as well, with 2 layers fully programmable on board (without software) and lots of other features.

I see your board with the reds, that really is quite near to my dream target board. My right thumb doesn't type, though, so I wonder how I'd get along with that board. Is it feasible to move the right hand over so that the index finger can type on the thumb block?

[sordna]

Sure, I use my right hand's index and middle fingers whenever I need to press alt+ctrl, although sometimes I just use my thumb to press them both at the same time, the red switches are just so easy to press anyway you like :-)

Now why doesn't your right thumb type, is there a problem with it, or you just aren't used to it? With the Kinesis keyboard you will type really efficiently if you use both your thumbs, although I guess you can easily remap the left Delete key to Space and the left End key to Enter, and thus use your left thumb for everything. But if your right thumb is functional, it would be worth practicing to make use of it. It's healthier to spread the work across all your fingers rather than overworking a few of them.

[dotancohen]

The thumb doesn't bend, the joint inside was destroyed. Even five years after it happened, the digit is still painful and sensitive.

[Lanx]

damn dude, but yea i haven't personally used the kinesis ( i think i might grab one in the future) but aside from hours of modding an ergo 4k, i think a kinesis would be a nice fit, plus then you can mod it too! (i think it could use a bit more of a tilt towards the middle but haven't tested it out to see).

[500_pts]

lol without even reading the thread, i knew this would turn into a firing range for sordna or input nirvana. Ergo is nice.

[sordna]

haha, it is nice.
And Lanx, you are absolutely correct about the tilt being too little. The first thing I would mod about the keyboard would be to split it in order to tilt the sides more. The matrix layout is really the way to go, I even propped 2 Kinesis keyboards vertically once (to simulate a vertical keyboard) and could type at my full WPM without errors. I could never do that with my CKS which tilts all the way to vertical, but has the traditional staggered layout:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24381[/ATTACH]

This just proves to me how inefficient the staggered layout is. Vertical columns is way better.
By the way, here's a modded Kinesis (not  mine) with a really nice tilt, I might do this some day:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24384[/ATTACH]

[Input Nirvana]

lol without even reading the thread, i knew this would turn into a firing range for sordna or input nirvana. Ergo is nice.

Hey, I didn't even post!

[dotancohen]

Hey, I didn't even post!

 
That's sniper warfare: the threat of you posting is more effective than actually having you post.

[microsoft windows]

I don't buy keyboards anyway so I don't care about buying ergonomic ones.

[Gerk]

I think the camera work on that video says it all -- it's about on par with the expertise of this woman ... shaky at best

I'm stuck on the ergo 4k's.  The rubber domes feel like crap but they layout is just perfect for the way my arms/hands work and the way they want to naturally fall.  

I don't do well with the flat keyboards at the best of times for lengthy sessions (and I'm a coder so I spend way too many hours in front of a keyboard).  I do use them and switch them up all the time but I have a tough time letting go of the ergo 4k form factor and layout that I just keep wanting to come back to.

[Input Nirvana]

Have you tried anything else? Ergo-keyboard wise? There are real options besides mystery companies that falsely promise mystery keyboards.

My only complaint is, why would anyone send an unknown company money today for a keyboard they may/may not get at some point in the future? If you want it so much, why not just wait till they actually make it, then purchase it like 99.99% of all other purchases? Then there is no being 'upset' about it not being made/shipped. I've been hearing about TE for over 2 years. In that time I've been using Kinesis Advantage, Datahand, Alphagrip, RollerMouse, Apple Magic Trackpad, Kensington Expert Mouse Pro, AND cut a Kinesis Advantage in half for uber-ergo. And all this time people are still 'waiting', giving money and talking about TE.

Did you see the mechanical switch modified 4000 here on GH?

[500_pts]

Hey, I didn't even post!

It was only a matter of you discovering the thread

I tend to agree with sordna here that the *NON*-staggerred layout is far more comfrotable, however becasuse of availability, price, and desk space I will unhappily continue to use the standard staggered layout. Plus my filco tkl collection is sweet!



edit: thanks sordna ;P

[Input Nirvana]

It was only a matter of you discovering the thread

I tend to agree with sordna here that the *NON*-staggerred layout is far more comfrotable, however becasuse of availability, price, and desk space I will unhappily continue to use the standard staggered layout. Plus my filco tkl collection is sweet!



edit: thanks sordna ;P

The Typematrix is small, non-staggered, and inexpensive, so you can get most of the way, just not mechanical switches.

Seriously, If I can get my ass in gear, and get the controller wiki/mod group together, we can have a buildable mechanical switch keyboard easily for $150. It could be like a Kinesis Freestyle except with mechanical switches, non-staggered, finger-length appropriate rows, split in 2 halves, programmable.

[fossala]

Before I knew about mechanical keyboard  I was using a microsoft 4000 ergo and lusted after kinesis/malron. Shame is I'm buying another keyboard and it's neither of these because to get one in the UK it would cost over £300. I can get one of ebay.com and get it shipped for £200 but then after 20% import tax its still £240.

[sordna]

Sigh, we should pressure Kinesis to do a split version of the Advantage. I keep telling them, but they gotta hear it from way more folks.

[Gerk]

Have you tried anything else? Ergo-keyboard wise? There are real options besides mystery companies that falsely promise mystery keyboards.

My only complaint is, why would anyone send an unknown company money today for a keyboard they may/may not get at some point in the future? If you want it so much, why not just wait till they actually make it, then purchase it like 99.99% of all other purchases? Then there is no being 'upset' about it not being made/shipped. I've been hearing about TE for over 2 years. In that time I've been using Kinesis Advantage, Datahand, Alphagrip, RollerMouse, Apple Magic Trackpad, Kensington Expert Mouse Pro, AND cut a Kinesis Advantage in half for uber-ergo. And all this time people are still 'waiting', giving money and talking about TE.

Did you see the mechanical switch modified 4000 here on GH?

Unfortunately I didn't properly do the research on them before I gave them my money ... I saw the layout of it and read up on it and saw a shipping date that was only a couple of months off and clicked through their payment system.  I'm not really upset about it, more disappointed ... it looks like keyboard umm ... cough *nirvana* cough ... at least to me anyway  If they could just ship it I would be really happy.  I was a bit worried that they would only end up doing a single run of them once they figured out how complicated it all was, so I wanted to get my order in there and stand in line so to speak.

I've tried a couple of different Kenesis over the years (Advantage and I think a Matrix).  I use (and love!) Magic Trackpads (I had been wanting a good multi-touch capable external trackpad for years and the Adesso's just didn't cut it).  I also have a Kensington Expert Mouse Pro (and a few variations of them over the years) along with several other thumb style trackballs (Logitech, Microsoft).

I did see the modified 4000 here, drooool.  Too much work for my liking though.  If I could buy one retail that would be another story though.

[Gerk]

Also worth noting the ergo 4k was not my first ergo form factor keyboard ... I used to own an original Apple Adjustable keyboard that I used for many years, and I had the pleasure of using a split M15 for just over a year (sadly it was my old work's board and not mine and they refused to part with it!).

[Lanx]

the quick and dirty, and ugly ergo 4k that i first modded (and still use) only really took me 2 weeks to do, i put the total cost of it on the wiki, but from memory it only really cost less than 70$ or so, which is pretty good if you think about it, i mean i went all the way to mod something to my satisfaction, and overall(aside from it being totally unpresentable and ugly) it works perfectly. Again i had zero skills with anything, i damn near burned caluss on my hands learning how to solder and what is soldering, cutting wire, flicking melting hot plastic in my face with a dremel, it was a learn as I went project, that a lot of GH ppl helped me on (what is soldering, whats a good iron, blah blah, many helped out with my noobness).

even my 2nd verson of the cherry ergo 4k didn't cost much in materials, sure i spent more, i mean i went and bought better looking wire, i wanted a newer soldering iron cuz i'll be working with it more (i used an el cheapo radio shack one for the first one), i learned about putty and spray paint.

If you really really, really like the ms ergo 4k like i do, and DO NOT want to compromise the muscle memory you've built up over the years or believe that the ms ergo 4k is just that good, well make your own, otherwise i only really see the kinesis as the only alternative really (and i was not willing to "learn" the kinesis).

i'm actually going to try to finish up my work, i've been working like a dog for the past 8months and i think there's a tiny stretch of window i can devote to finishing up the 2nd (and prettier) ergo 4k cherry mod (it's 95% electronically complete, just the spacebar isn't connected), then ppl can see a finished work log i guess, but what is on the wiki so far is enough to get anyone started on a ergo 4k cherry mod, if you want it quick and dirty.

[Gerk]

I really like the ergo 4k but I don't have the time required to do that kind of modding ... I read the pages though

If I ever find myself with time on my hands and get ambitious I might give it a shot one of these years (I have stock on lots of old ergo 4k's and even a set of cherry blue's I'd be happy to pull out of my Razer ... hmmm ... dang, you have me thinking now.  I'm good with soldering and that general part of things but time's a factor.  Too many projects on hold already

If I do decide to try it out I'll post here though

[Lanx]

Well like i said my situation, maybe affects a few dozen ppl in the world. The part of the population that absolutely love the ergo 4k, and recognize just how great the initial design is, from the optional inward incline slope, to the comfortable faux leather pad, to the inward slope towards the middle hump. Then you go off and use a mechanical keyboard and can't go back, your stuck in limbo, a regular cherry brown switch is awesome, but you feel lost on a regular tenkeyless brown or 104key standard layout. You go back to the ergo 4k and can't stand the extreme force required to activate switch and "mushy" feel is all to apparent. I'm telling you this cuz i was in your shoes, and i was "searching" for a solution and "waiting" for a bit (maybe 3months) that i just said screw it, it negatively affects me so much that it's "worth" my time to learn how to make a cherry brown ergo 4k.

[dotancohen]

Seriously, If I can get my ass in gear, and get the controller wiki/mod group together, we can have a buildable mechanical switch keyboard easily for $150. It could be like a Kinesis Freestyle except with mechanical switches, non-staggered, finger-length appropriate rows, split in 2 halves, programmable.

In gear yet? I'm willing to Paypal to you the money right now.

[sordna]

Here's what I'm waiting for:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22780
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/split-ergonomic-keyboard-project-t1753.html

[tsangan]

Sordna and I are waiting on the same thing