Post by: irjoe on Tue, 03 April 2012, 04:42:14
The general consensus I've been getting is that they're good for gaming, but what about for those who are trying to type?
What is it about linear switches that deters people from using them for typing purposes?
I see a lot of hype for the Reds; why the Reds over Blacks, when they are both linear with the only difference being the operating force?
Post by: Aranair on Tue, 03 April 2012, 04:52:24
I think the tactile bump allows them to bottom out less by letting the fingers know when to stop applying force and go to the next key.
Red and black being linear, don't have that benefit.... Another potential problem is that it may be easy to make mistakes because it might be too light. (I don't find it a problem myself though)
Black on the other hand, lacks both the lightness (to lessen fatigue) AND the tactile bump associated with better touch typing ..
Post by: megnin on Tue, 03 April 2012, 05:04:47
Post by: Elissar on Tue, 03 April 2012, 05:10:31
With clicky feedback you can more successfully touch type without the need to bottom out to know that you have actually registered the key. There in lies the benefits for blues/browns (more so blue as the bump is more pronounced and unmistakable.)
Browns are lighter but provide an almost silent click, making it useful for gaming and typing.
Reds over black is simple, operating force. This is huge in both typing and gaming. People may not want to adjust to the high resistance of blacks and in that case reds would be more for them. On the other hand, in terms
of typing fatigue, Reds would allow for a more weightless and effortless typing experience if you are a seasoned typer who consistently bottoms out.
I prefer to type on blues over browns as, despite my bottoming out tendancies, they allow me to lift up before i bottom up after training myself to use the click as a point to move to the next key.
They are teaching me to touch type more so, whereas my browns I just bottom out constantly as it feels more appropriate.
I haven't tried reds for a prolonged period but I am confident that if I get them I will have to fall back into the habit of always bottoming out.
All in all; Switches are and always will be based on personal preference.
Post by: Saviant on Tue, 03 April 2012, 05:15:05
Post by: Autolyze on Tue, 03 April 2012, 05:33:51
As for Reds vs Blacks, it seems like most people just prefer lighter switches, particularly for typing.
Post by: fstop on Tue, 03 April 2012, 05:55:52
If you don't bottom out on reds, its a very light, clean switch. Or if you add o-rings it becomes a soft landing. Typing and gaming on them is fantastic, although I do agree that you end up making more mistakes then you normally do. Especially if you try to not bottom out - sometimes you press so lightly that the switch doesn't even trigger and you miss letters. But even still its my favorite switch. I type faster with more mistakes, but its a more comfortable experience.
Reds have become the superior switch for me, browns a distant second, and blues/blacks far, far behind.
Post by: stingrae on Tue, 03 April 2012, 06:05:40
I still think I like browns the best but don't know when i'll get a brown board again. My blues are what I use the majority of the time the feel and feedback are nice. Reds sorta fall into the my hands are tired or I need a break saying that i'd have no real issue parting with them.
For me having the experience of a stronger tactile switch has drasticly helped with typing on the linear reds where the generally feel very soft when using them which can be a nice change.
The two switches are so different though..
Post by: Gawkbasher on Tue, 03 April 2012, 06:05:41
Haven't tried blacks or browns so I can't say much about what everyone else is...but for actually typing anything I have a significant preference for Topre 45g or Blue switches.
I would like to try out some Blacks at some point.
Post by: irjoe on Tue, 03 April 2012, 06:13:20
(shouldn't worry about typing, as I press WAY too hard on the strings, and that in itself is a problem for both my fingers and my frets :X)
Glad to see there are plenty in GH.
As for noise level, are Reds generally more quieter than the Browns? I'm trying to find out if a red is worth bringing to a lecture to take notes on. My brown switches makes a lot of 'clatter' noise, since i haven't trained myself to touch-type yet, and although I don't try to bottom out, I don't like to use them in public as they do still make enough noises for people to find them distracting in certain settings.
I will most likely be O-ring modding it if I do get a reds, so factoring that in, how will the noise level be (compared to browns)?
Post by: irjoe on Tue, 03 April 2012, 06:15:30
What about in small lecture rooms to quiet libraries? How do the reds fare?
Touch typing on reds = ninja typist in libraries?
Post by: GeorgeStorm on Tue, 03 April 2012, 06:33:12
Then got my Poker, and while it's taken me a while to get used to it (mainly for the lightness of touch rather than anything else) I know enjoy it. Find blues difficult to type on for a while each time I use my brothers keyboard now (my old Ducky with blues)
If you don't bottom out, reds are very quiet, but I love the sound of bottoming out, so I don't bother trying :P
Post by: captain on Tue, 03 April 2012, 08:01:06
Quote from: fstop;565499
I like my reds more then anything else. I have weak fingers, years of piano and guitar stressed them out to a point where they hurt if I use them for extended periods of time.
If you don't bottom out on reds, its a very light, clean switch. Or if you add o-rings it becomes a soft landing. Typing and gaming on them is fantastic, although I do agree that you end up making more mistakes then you normally do. Especially if you try to not bottom out - sometimes you press so lightly that the switch doesn't even trigger and you miss letters. But even still its my favorite switch. I type faster with more mistakes, but its a more comfortable experience.
Reds have become the superior switch for me, browns a distant second, and blues/blacks far, far behind.
911! Someone call the grammar police! THAN not THEN! Look up the words so you can use them correctly, and so the appearance of some modicum of intelligence won't be mitigated by this travesty. ;-P
You are correct about Reds being light and smooth. To me, they are the smoothest of the Cherry MX line. I like a good solid click though, so Blues are my preference, even though they don't feel a solid as Reds. Browns are just a bastard stepchild of the two, and Blacks are old school, like reds from the ghetto, hardened and tough. They are ALL better than the marshmallow of rubber domes though.
O-rings are a waste of money. They reduce the travel by up to 1/3!, and are counter productive. Bottoming out is almost guaranteed with o-rings. It's much better to just learn how to type on mechanical switches.
Post by: stingrae on Tue, 03 April 2012, 08:49:39
Post by: pitashen on Tue, 03 April 2012, 09:00:00
I have had brief experiences with red as well, also nice to type on. Quite different thought despite being linear as well.
Post by: squarebox on Tue, 03 April 2012, 09:03:34
Post by: Aranair on Tue, 03 April 2012, 09:06:43
Quote from: squarebox;565564
I love using Red as much as Brown.
for typing? heh. I should go buy one and try it for a few extra days sometime...
Post by: royalsego on Tue, 03 April 2012, 09:39:11
Reds FTW!
Post by: sth on Tue, 03 April 2012, 09:58:16
I use blues at work. They're nothing compared to buckling spring... it's like a novelty knock-off. That said, I don't hate them, but I definitely won't be buying another board with blues.
I modded my poker from blues to ghetto reds... lovin' it. I bottom out far less often on it than on my board with blues and I don't really have a problem with missing characters.
Post by: jonnybastard on Tue, 03 April 2012, 10:03:31
Post by: sordna on Tue, 03 April 2012, 10:24:08
Post by: jblack801 on Tue, 03 April 2012, 11:03:23
I started out with a brown switch, and decided I liked the tactile feel and wanted to try out blues. When I ordered my Poker on ebay, I received one with black switches. I figured while I sorted it out with the guy on ebay, I'd give them a try while I had them in my possession.
After a couple days of typing on them, I thought they were just okay. I feel I may enjoy them better if they had less force required to actuate the keys (I wouldn't mind trying reds).
It seems it's a general consensus that it's all about not bottoming out. I'm not really sure why, it seems that it would slow you down a tad and would just be quieter. I could understand if you have your mechanical keyboard in a library often, then you might want to learn to not bottom out but I definitely seem slower when I've tried and I don't really see a huge benefit. Hell, I have some co-workers with their 6 month old rubber domes that are as loud as my blue switches, just not as high pitched.
I would like to try out reds sometime, but I'm pretty content with my current setup.
Post by: BigDov on Tue, 03 April 2012, 11:18:58
Post by: sordna on Tue, 03 April 2012, 11:25:21
Post by: BigDov on Tue, 03 April 2012, 11:30:13
Quote from: sordna;565670
Black switches have a bad name really. They are way lighter and smoother than a lot of rubber dome keyboards out there.
I would definitely agree with you on that one......they've just got a bad rap for some reason. I have an aluminum Apple keyboard on my iMac here at work, and it just feels WEIRD and pathetic in comparison. I've also got an old WYSE terminal keyboard at home that is rubber domed, and it feels light years beyond this Apple thing, and really is pretty pleasant to use, even after using the blacks 100% of my time at home. Dunno, I guess I'm not a super keyboard connoisseur :/
Post by: captain on Tue, 03 April 2012, 13:29:55
In a switch-shoe analogy, Blacks are work boots, Reds are running shoes.
I have this theory that Blacks' stronger spring force actually reduces the bottoming out force, and could actually make typing faster. On the other hand, they require more force to depress. Reds, on the other hand depress with less force, and don't "push back" as hard, so one might bottom out more heavily...however, the force exerted to depress the switch is less, so one learns to type with a lighter touch. When the human is accounted for, the formula becomes more complex.
Personally, I like my piano action very light, and I like my keyboard switches light and clicky. Blues FTW.... Oddly, I like BS too. In that case, I think it's the extreme tacitly and definite feedback from the CLICK that makes them a joy to type on.
Alas, I'm typing this up on a piece of rock hard Gorilla Glass, and I'm learning to just lightly tap it to mitigate bone spurs forming in my fingertips. :-P
Post by: fossala on Tue, 03 April 2012, 13:55:31
Post by: gigibecali on Tue, 03 April 2012, 14:10:30
Quote from: fossala;565778
The misses likes typing on mx blacks. I don't see what she sees in them.
Women. They're all a weird bunch. :)
Post by: guilleguillaume on Tue, 03 April 2012, 14:13:50
Post by: reaper on Tue, 03 April 2012, 14:35:00
Post by: GODJOEY on Tue, 03 April 2012, 14:47:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0qfmp5gaJc
Post by: boost on Tue, 03 April 2012, 14:49:40
Post by: andrewjoy on Tue, 03 April 2012, 16:59:07
Post by: irjoe on Tue, 03 April 2012, 17:10:11
Noise level isn't something that bothers me, but I want to make sure that if I'm going to purchase a poker/pure for outside purposes, I want it to be something that doesn't cause too much issue around others.
In all cases, I can purchase a red and see whether I like it or not, and sell it afterwards. It seems that reds have a pretty good resell value around here.
Post by: WRXChris on Tue, 03 April 2012, 17:36:34
Anyways, it all comes down to personal preference, and as you know, cherry red boards hold their value really well so that sounds like an excellent starting point. GL!
Post by: slueth on Tue, 03 April 2012, 17:45:25
Black is my favorite cherry switch even like it for typing long essays. Don't like red, it is too light for me.
Post by: fstop on Tue, 03 April 2012, 18:48:40
Quote from: irjoe;565507
@fstop, is it something with your joints? I play guitar, and one of the biggest fears I have is getting tendinitis: Do you think that the tendency/habit of bottoming out to contribute to joint problems?
(shouldn't worry about typing, as I press WAY too hard on the strings, and that in itself is a problem for both my fingers and my frets :X)
To be honest I don't think it would be a real issue for most people. I played piano for years then picked up the guitar on my own and had bad habits, which contributed to slight pains in my wrist/fingers over the years. Bottoming out on any keyboard will fatigue your fingers, but I think more so with reds because its such a linear motion and there's nothing to absorb the shock when the key directly hits the plate.
Typing with reds take awhile to get use to if you want to avoid bottoming out (which you should try to learn). If you type properly, stretch your fingers and give them breaks, it shouldn't become a problem. I just find reds to be far more comfortable for my weaker fingers.
Post by: sordna on Tue, 03 April 2012, 19:22:28
Quote from: fstop;566039
its such a linear motion and there's nothing to absorb the shock when the key directly hits the plate.
Here's where o-rings (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-accessories-2/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html) come in.
Post by: fstop on Tue, 03 April 2012, 19:51:13
Quote from: sordna;566062
Here's where o-rings (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/keyboard-accessories-2/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html) come in.
Yeah I know, I mentioned them in my post prior to the one you quoted. But in the end I prefer no o-rings because of the reduced travel time. They also make reds feel less crisp for me.
Post by: canon.tk on Wed, 04 April 2012, 21:52:45
Blues are good for typing but I like browns better. Blues suck for gaming, browns are passable.
Post by: audioave10 on Wed, 04 April 2012, 22:55:57
I liked BS or Blues better for typing also.
Post by: Tranquilite on Thu, 05 April 2012, 01:12:02
Post by: Solanin on Thu, 05 April 2012, 08:29:06
Quote from: irjoe;565465
Just wanted to see who here actually enjoys typing on Black / Red switches.I dont really understand it myself but I own a black board, gaming on that is no nonsense. However typing is a bit meh for me. So I took it apart and modify a ghetto red board. Surprisingly a new whole feeling, it is like half of the black operating force. Might be it is the cause. : the light feeling of it.
The general consensus I've been getting is that they're good for gaming, but what about for those who are trying to type?
What is it about linear switches that deters people from using them for typing purposes?
I see a lot of hype for the Reds; why the Reds over Blacks, when they are both linear with the only difference being the operating force?
@canon.tk : try green for gaming.
Post by: Mugen on Thu, 05 April 2012, 11:52:42
I type of reds, love them.
Post by: lucidlts on Thu, 05 April 2012, 15:01:20
IMO red>black
Post by: eXellenty on Thu, 05 April 2012, 15:02:54
Post by: Squelos on Thu, 05 April 2012, 17:07:25
Going for reds which are just a tad lighter isnt too bad i believe.
Post by: Crackensan on Thu, 05 April 2012, 19:16:40
Post by: Sifo on Thu, 05 April 2012, 19:22:00
EDIT: I must be crazy, I reread my reply and it wasn't what I wanted to say at all.
Post by: rknize on Thu, 05 April 2012, 19:30:19
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 05 April 2012, 19:57:31
Post by: krzaq on Sat, 07 April 2012, 08:43:00
Blues are my daily drivers but when my girlfriend goes to bed I'm switching to blacks.
I didn't like blacks for typing in the past but nowdays I like to use them for a change.
Post by: Squelos on Mon, 09 April 2012, 06:19:34
Didnt like the browns too much compared to reds or blues.
Blues have that nice tactile feedback. Reds dont have it, are just linear.
Browns feel gritty, and you cant really feel the tactile bump.
So I figured to just get rid of that tactile bump, and go for reds.
Considering I used blues, I know when the keys register, so not having a bump doesnt bother me.
So yeah, final word, I like typing on linears. Things are just so smooth. And light on reds.
Going to get a Topre board, looking forward to getting it.
Post by: rknize on Mon, 09 April 2012, 09:54:15
Anyway, just thought I'd share. Sorry for the slightly OT.
Post by: Surly73 on Mon, 09 April 2012, 10:36:57
Post by: csm725 on Mon, 09 April 2012, 11:09:32
Post by: iBro on Mon, 09 April 2012, 12:40:18
I liked blues and buckling springs a lot. But I am going off to UNI in a few months and will have a roommate, so I don't think I can get by with a loud keyboard. So I bought a keyboard with black springs. They are pretty good and I liked them almost as much as the buckling springs. But out of curiosity I got some brown springs and modded my Poker to ghetto reds. And I have to say that I think reds are definitely my favorite linear switch, and probably my favorite switch all together.
I like the smoothness and of the linear switches, and the lightness of the red switches makes typing feel fluent and easy.
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 10 April 2012, 00:00:37
Despite their 60-something grams actuation point, blacks are as ergo as anyone could ever want. The fact that it's hard to bottom out means that you're constantly landing on a spring instead of a metal plate. Weird science, huh?
Post by: sordna on Tue, 10 April 2012, 00:13:38
Post by: PRISONER 24601 on Tue, 10 April 2012, 00:40:28
Quote from: sordna;572087
Weirdor not, the science should work; the uber-expensive Maltron handcrafted ergonomic keyboards use cherry MX blacks, and BTW these are keyboards made for typing.
Precisely!
My Kenisis with browns is just too light.
Post by: ander on Sat, 07 February 2015, 05:51:38
Sure, I "actually" like linear switches. I never did get the tactile-feedback thing—why do you need keys to "tell" you when they've actuated? Aren't you looking at your display? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? Why do you need non-visual confirmations? If you're slowing down enough to wait for that, aren't you getting in your own way?
That said, sure, I switch to my Cherry Browns now and then, just for the different feeling. They're crispy, sassy. They're like your other girlfriend—the one who's not smooth and glamorous, just fun.
I don't rely on the Browns' tactile feedback; that'd defeat the purpose of touch typing, IMHO. But it's fun to change things up now and then. It keeps you interested.
Post by: MPZ on Sat, 07 February 2015, 06:17:10
When I first discovered mechanical keyboards (long before I bought any), I tried out the big 4 Cherry switch types at a local Fry's. Frankly, I can't help but feel that the tactile feedback of cherry switches is junk. There, I said it. I also have small, weak fingers so my favorite MX switch is red by miles. It's funny... typing is definitely the most "effortless" for me on MX reds, but I'm typing this on a Novatouch (Topre). Even though I'm slower and more distracted on Topres, somehow I still drastically prefer it. Maybe I just don't like the particular red board I have right now (or maybe I just prefer less mistakes), but even though reds do a better job of stepping out of the way of getting my thoughts down (until I make a mistake- I am apparently too OCD not to correct as I go) I still prefer the sensation of Topres. I guess I'd rather be more conscious of my keypresses- apparently it somehow makes me happy. Go figure- lol now I want to try buckling spring.
-MPZ
Post by: Den441 on Sat, 07 February 2015, 07:37:46
Post by: Nai_Calus on Sat, 07 February 2015, 08:00:51
I never did get the tactile-feedback thing—why do you need keys to "tell" you when they've actuated? Aren't you looking at your display? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? Why do you need non-visual confirmations? If you're slowing down enough to wait for that, aren't you getting in your own way?
Because I'm not relying on reading what I'm typing, either, other than to check for typos. It's hard to explain really. The tactile feedback lets me feel that the key has actuated and move on to the next key without having to wait to read what character just came on the screen. I don't have to look to see if I typed that s, I know I did because I felt it activate. Half the time I don't even really look at what I'm typing as I type it, I'm looking a few words back, or reading something else, or just kind of staring into space thinking. The tactile feedback allows me to type without having to worry about whether I actuated the key. I felt it, I don't need to look at anything to know I did. The tactile feedback is faster than visual feedback for me. If I waited to confirm visually, I'd need to wait for my brain to process that OK, there's a 'c', let's hit the next letter, there's an 'a', let's hit the next letter... Instead it's just bump move bump move bump move bump move etc.
Now, I typed that on my keyboardwith blues, not looking at the screen. This I''m doing ther same but with an Infinitty with Gatreron Clears, which are a super-light linear, erven lighter than Reds.
Now look at what a mess that was compared to the blues. I can't feel the actuation point so I made a ton of errors. So I have to watch the letters coming up on screen. It's awkward as hell and slows me down even though I'm typing on something that should in theory be 'faster'. It also hurts - The only feedback is from bottoming out(Which is almost impossible not to do on Gateron Clears, it's a 35g linear. I still bottom out on my blues a bit but not consistently like I end up doing with linear switches, at least light ones.
That said, I think there's something to be said for *weight* even more than tactile/not tactile - I don't enjoy the feel of MX black at all but I imagine I'd find it easier to type on than reds or gateron clears due to the heavier weighting. If you have a light touch reds or browns would both be better than a heavier switch, if you're a thunder typer blacks and clears would both be better. A switch you're bottoming out is not a switch you're going to find comfortable long-term because you're pounding against metal, basically, when the keycap bottoms out. Ouch. Black gives enough backsass it'd cushion my thunderfingers from that despite not sending the 'stop, idiot' signal to my brain.
Post by: morpheus on Sat, 07 February 2015, 08:42:30
Blacks in particular proved to hit my sweet spot.
Post by: Roibhilin on Sat, 07 February 2015, 12:15:50
Post by: noisyturtle on Sat, 07 February 2015, 12:31:10
Post by: Lurch on Sat, 07 February 2015, 12:35:04
holy resurrection Batman!
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f1/f1dfda25d2f143f2b6f3a2f20c9ff3f9a4ef27188496dd43f083736c52e8559b.jpg)
Post by: SpikeBolt on Sat, 07 February 2015, 13:50:44
I type a bit slower on my reds but I absolutely love them. Wouldn't trade reds for any other MX switch.
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 07 February 2015, 14:16:27
If you haven't tried trampoline modded 62g ErgoClears you haven't truly lived.
And we have enough interesting threads going on without necro'ing old ones.
Post by: SpikeBolt on Sat, 07 February 2015, 14:42:40
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 07 February 2015, 16:10:06
Anyone who likes linear switches should try building a keyboard with a solenoid in it. Super fun.
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 07 February 2015, 16:15:09
(Note to potential "necro" critics: I'm replying to this older topic because people still read these topics, looking for information. MX linear switches are a happening thing—not a relic of the past—so there's no reason to rag on people for reviving a good thread about them. We're here to encourage keyboard discussion, not try to make each other feel guilty about it. 'Nuff said!)
Note, very similar questions get discussed and debated about once a month, sometimes in the middle of unrelated threads, sometimes as the explicit topic. If it were a unique topic, resurrecting an old thread like this would make sense. Otherwise, most of the content of these types of threads ends up being redundant with a very high noise/signal ratio, and having disjointed water cooler conversations from 2012 mixed with 2015 doesn’t add much value IMO; most of the people involved in the 2012 discussion have moved on, so it’s impossible to ask for their follow-up thoughts or question them, which means for anyone reading along, there’s a (not marked in any obvious way) big discontinuity in the conversation halfway through.
If you really want to make a helpful resource for the “people still reading these old topics looking for information”, then the thing to do is comb through all of the relevant threads, summarize whatever information you learn, and make a new post cross-linking them all.
Ideally that’s what the wiki would be for, but the wiki seems to be effectively dead, unfortunately.
Post by: aref on Sat, 07 February 2015, 17:07:40
Post by: jacobolus on Sat, 07 February 2015, 17:20:16
Mid-2013 switch review directory thread:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44165
Threads that are specifically about this topic:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=18651
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=19088
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=29506 (this thread)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38464 (other thread you necro'd)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56623
Other stuff that seems at least partly relevant (and I’m sure there are plenty of other threads besides these, for anyone who hunts around a bit more carefully):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=7451
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=7879
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8872
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8921
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=9768
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=10765
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11842
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12333
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13340
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=13806
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=15052
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17620
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17758
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=18988
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20031
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20223
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=20287
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22182
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=22765
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23909
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=23914
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25381
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=25924
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27550
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28440
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28748
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=30881
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33428
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33573
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35102
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35110
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35662
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=36444
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37150
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37676
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37866
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39254
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40156
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41117
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44125
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44257
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44312
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44573
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44749
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44880
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44962
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45174
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45456
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45700
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46486
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47098
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48424
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49426
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50125
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50240
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51723
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52646
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53344
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53793
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54567
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55008
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55403
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55848
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56549
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57636
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59948
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60288
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60707
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61650
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=64011
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66653
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66669
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67623
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68061
Post by: brownbaglunch on Sat, 07 February 2015, 17:43:32
Post by: Firebolt1914 on Sat, 07 February 2015, 17:57:31
Please name a cheap compact or mini board that has these. I always wanted to try these.
What is your definition of cheap? Also, what is your definition of compact? Something like the Poker, or V60 has blacks/reds, but they might not be cheap. the Quickfire Rapid has reds, is fairly cheap, but TKL.
Post by: sordna on Sat, 07 February 2015, 19:17:14
No mention yet of using linear switches with a solenoid/clicker/buzzer/speaker?
Kinesis Advantage LF has linears and a buzzer. Better than tactile feedback, like it so much I even put a buzzer in my ergodox (see my sig for the mod).
Quote
Anyone who likes linear switches should try building a keyboard with a solenoid in it. Super fun.
Can you link us to a video so we get the idea?
Post by: Nover on Sat, 07 February 2015, 19:26:45
Please name a cheap compact or mini board that has these. I always wanted to try these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Data911-Data-911-MDS2000-keyboard-touchpad-ps-2-ps2-M2C-TG3-TP/230825921862
Post by: alfa_lima_echo_xray on Sun, 08 February 2015, 00:54:01
Someone said something earlier about the reds being a really 'clean' switch which resonated with me.
I'm sure my preference is somewhat informed by having a very light technique these days, no more bottoming out. You can absolutely learn the actuation point on the Red and Black switches and have a very fast and accurate technique typing with either of them.
Post by: Asininity on Sun, 08 February 2015, 00:58:00
Plus, it's a fantastic excuse to buy more boards!
Post by: jacobolus on Sun, 08 February 2015, 01:23:42
Quote from: jacobolus
Anyone who likes linear switches should try building a keyboard with a solenoid in it. Super fun.
Can you link us to a video so we get the idea?
I’m not sure there are any good videos online (I can’t find any in a few minutes of searching). I’ve definitely seen a beam spring keyboard or two with solenoids demonstrated (not linear switches of course), and maybe also some Hall Effect board, at an SF Bay Area keyboard meetup. (If you want a video maybe ask on Deskthority? A few people over there have beam spring boards with working solenoids set up.)
The basic idea of a linear solenoid is it’s a little magnetic metal rod that gets accelerated sideways by passing a current through a coiled wire wrapped around it. Basically, you turn on the current to slap the rod into part of the keyboard case. So it’s a similar concept to a buzzer/speaker, except there’s a physical impact involved, which makes everything more fun.
Getting a good sound/slight feeling out of it requires a good case design/material, with the solenoid placed in a spot where hitting the case will be the right volume/sound.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 08 February 2015, 11:40:06
Quote from: jacobolusAnyone who likes linear switches should try building a keyboard with a solenoid in it. Super fun.Can you link us to a video so we get the idea?
I’m not sure there are any good videos online (I can’t find any in a few minutes of searching). I’ve definitely seen a beam spring keyboard or two with solenoids demonstrated (not linear switches of course), and maybe also some Hall Effect board, at an SF Bay Area keyboard meetup. (If you want a video maybe ask on Deskthority? A few people over there have beam spring boards with working solenoids set up.)
The basic idea of a linear solenoid is it’s a little magnetic metal rod that gets accelerated sideways by passing a current through a coiled wire wrapped around it. Basically, you turn on the current to slap the rod into part of the keyboard case. So it’s a similar concept to a buzzer/speaker, except there’s a physical impact involved, which makes everything more fun.
Getting a good sound/slight feeling out of it requires a good case design/material, with the solenoid placed in a spot where hitting the case will be the right volume/sound.
So I gather you haven't actually tried it.
Sounds fun but I wonder if it can keep up with 100 wpm typing.
Post by: shantanujoshi on Sun, 08 February 2015, 11:43:27
Post by: eth0s on Sun, 08 February 2015, 11:46:39
vintage blacks are totally awesome.
reds are pretty good as well.
modern blacks? meh.
Just mah opinion.
Post by: evolveS on Mon, 09 February 2015, 09:09:04
vintage blacks are totally awesome.
reds are pretty good as well.
This. Smooth linear switches are divine.
Post by: sethk_ on Mon, 09 February 2015, 10:44:41
Post by: XMIT on Mon, 09 February 2015, 12:54:07
Thank goodness for solder suckers.
I know that I have "heavy" hands so for me Brown and Red switches are basically unusable. I really, really like tactile switches and am glad I discovered MX Clears.
The Max Keyboard eight switch sampler really helped me make up my mind. A nice thing about that sampler is that the switches are not soldered down so it is possible to open individual switches, move springs around, apply/remove grease, etc. That kit affirmed my hatred of Browns and my love of Clears. (I may try to find a Gray for spacebars.) PSA - the kit is back in stock, after being out of stock for a month.
Post by: XMIT on Mon, 09 February 2015, 12:57:30
I'll chalk this up to personal preference.
Post by: pr0ximity on Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:15:41
BOTTOMOUTBOYS
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:27:44
The closest equivalent in MX terms is something like a vintage MX black with 65/67g “Korean” springs. In my opinion, MX black is a bit too stiff (tiring), and MX red is quite a bit too light (accidental presses). 62g is pretty good, but still a hair lighter than my preference.
Then again, I’d rather type on clicky switches.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:28:38
I like my 62g red board. Perfect weight and buttery smooth linear mechanical action.
Yep. This is the best switch/weight combination for me that I've discovered in 4 years of keyboard nerdery.
Post by: BrewCaps on Mon, 09 February 2015, 13:38:38
Post by: azhdar on Mon, 09 February 2015, 14:42:43
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 09 February 2015, 15:53:33
I like my 62g red board. Perfect weight and buttery smooth linear mechanical action.
Yep. This is the best switch/weight combination for me that I've discovered in 4 years of keyboard nerdery.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think Cherry should switch to 62g springs and reduce their range to 3 switches: Blues/Greens with 62g, Blacks/Reds with 62g and Clears with 62g. No Browns, no other spring weights.
Post by: spiritistz on Tue, 10 February 2015, 08:53:50
Post by: Altis on Tue, 10 February 2015, 10:59:46
I strangely find linears easier to not bottom out with. I think it's because the force needed to overcome a tactile bump often is enough force to reach the bottom. As long as the linears are heavy enough, you don't reach the bottom (or do so quite gently).
I'd love to try vintage blacks perhaps with 62g Korean springs. I suspect those would be ideal.
One last note is that I love going back to Browns after using Reds a while. I can't explain it, but they feel nicer than going from Blue or BS to Browns.
Post by: Tyrosh22 on Tue, 10 February 2015, 12:25:58
Post by: mashby on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:02:17
I had played with MX-Red switches before and wasn't wild about them. I just figured MX-Black would be much the same. I figured I would desolder the board and replace the switches with something more to my liking, but while I waited for some parts to come in, I thought I'd at least begin using it. That's when it happened. I fell in love with MX-Black.
It caught me by surprise, it truly did, but there I was absolutely loving the feel. Most of it was the weight of the spring, I found that I enjoyed the added resistance since I usually bottom out when I type. However, I also found I didn't miss the click at all. There was enough audio feedback without the need for an extra click. I ended up doing a rebuild/refresh (https://www.flickr.com/photos/compactkey/sets/72157634554448964/) of the board, and opted to lube the switches and found it to be an improvement. Then when I came across the Signature Plastics SA profile with Commando 23 (http://keypuller.com/commando-23/), I was done for. Typing on lubed MX-Black switches using SA key caps is near perfection to me.
For the past two years, the MX-Black Poker X has been my daily driver (https://www.flickr.com/photos/compactkey/14567661912/in/set-72157645087783729) and I can't see ever getting away from it now since I've added the Penumbra Key Cap Set (http://keypuller.com/penumbra-sa/).
That being said... I don't just type on one keyboard. ;D
Today, I'm sporting a Poker X with MX-White that I haven't typed on in at least 9 months and I usually rotate in a HHKB Professional 2 Type-S at least a few times a week. So I guess what I'm saying is that it's fine to have your preferences, but it's also fun to mix things up a bit. :cool:
From my perspective, it's not just the switch, but also the combination of key caps and case that culminates into the overall feel. MX-Blues with thin ABS key caps is too high pitched for me and distracting. The MX-Whites I'm typing on now have IMSTO's thick PBT key caps and provide a nice solid feel that dampens the high pitch of the click just enough.
I think that's why this rabbit hole goes so deep. It's not just any one thing that provides us the "ideal typing experience", but a combination of things that you dial in over time. At least that's how it's been for me. :rolleyes:
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:04:59
Post by: Lu_e on Tue, 10 February 2015, 13:23:55
I don't really care for blues, something to do with the reset point above actuation.
Browns felt kinda neat, but i'm not sure if I need/want tactile feedback.
Having had linear (reds) for the past year, I just like the smoothness without interruption that linear switches give. The light resistance of reds I could maybe do without. I really want to try blacks for a while since I seem to bottom out quite a bit. /2cents
Post by: Tyrosh22 on Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:02:05
Post by: Nai_Calus on Tue, 10 February 2015, 15:58:10
Post by: sethk_ on Tue, 10 February 2015, 18:42:17
I hate bottoming out. It's painful. I've traced that my fingertip pain comes from bottoming out my blues. I've got a board with clears incoming and I'm also considering greens so I can still have that CLACK when I want it that blues have without slamming my fingers into a metal plate over and over thundertyping.I also went from blues to clears, but I also didn't have fingerpain. I still bottomed out when I first started typing on clears, but then slowly I unconsciously stopped pushing down as hard, but when I switched from my ErgoClears to HHKB back to clears, I was hardly going pass the actuation point. It might take some time, and clears aren't all that bit heavier than blues, so thunder typing still will bottom out.
Post by: p3lim on Tue, 10 February 2015, 21:59:39
I've yet to try out clears or any other switch types (alps, topre, buckling).
Post by: flaming_june on Tue, 10 February 2015, 22:31:53
Post by: supersoul on Thu, 12 February 2015, 23:50:11
Post by: ander on Sun, 15 February 2015, 08:35:44
Post by: Oobly on Sun, 15 February 2015, 13:18:28
If you're waiting for feedback from each keypress, how can you possibly be typing anywhere near your potential? You may as well hire someone to look over your shoulder and say, "Okay, you've pressed that one... Okay, you've pressed that one..." Of course you'd be providing a job for someone, so there's always an upside.
Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation. It's easier to type faster and with more accuracy when you're confident that each switch has actuated.
This is one of the reasons people type with less mistakes on Browns than Reds, despite the bump being really subtle, especially when typing at high speed.
Post by: sordna on Sun, 15 February 2015, 17:13:54
Post by: wyatt8740 on Sun, 15 February 2015, 19:17:57
Post by: ander on Mon, 16 February 2015, 05:31:28
I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.
BTW, I've come back and edited my post considerably, as it occurred to me that some of what I wrote could've been interpreted as mean-spirited. I didn't mean it that way—I was just really into the discussion—but I didn't want to leave anyone with that impression.
Post by: Oobly on Mon, 16 February 2015, 09:16:04
Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...
Your subconscious can also enable you to do incredibly subtle things—like reading this sentence without having to stop and spell out each word. Or riding a bike without training wheels. Or not needing tactile signals to type.
Sure, many people prefer tactile switches. I like typing on Browns myself sometimes. (I'm doing it now!) I like the novelty. It's like putting some of those bumpy rubber insoles in your shoes to massage your feet.
But if I had to use them all the time, I'd find them distracting. I don't need them to type well. I type just as fast on Reds. And I type on Blacks fastest of all, because they have just enough resistance to make tactile feedback and bottoming out irrelevant. So everyone's different.
I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious or unconscious—to give to anything. If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your attention to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything. You just type, and you can give all of your attention to what you're doing.
Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback. You can of course train yourself to ignore these uncertainties, but I do think that tactile switches will be faster for the majority of people because only those who have trained themselves to type on feedbackless switches will be able to do so without the concious being more involved than with switches that have some form of feedback.
I'm not saying linears are bad. I just don't want to take the time to train something that I don't need to if I use tactile switches, so maybe it's just that I'm lazy...
This is one of the reasons people type with less mistakes on Browns than Reds, despite the bump being really subtle...
If that's true, it could just mean that typists who'd otherwise be more prone to mistakes did better with tactile reassurance. Typists who were inherently more accurate, who didn't need the reassurance, could find it of no extra benefit, or even distracting. (Some athletes do better when they get regular pep talks—while those who are self-motivated may find pep talks silly or even demeaning.)
Statistics are tricky. Even if you tested a bunch of people and found that more of them typed better on tactile switches than on linears, you would have simply identified which people were like that, and that there happened to be more of them in your study than the others. It wouldn't be proof that tactile switches were "better".
I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.
You may have a point.
Post by: Surnia on Mon, 16 February 2015, 11:01:27
For me though, I've noticed that despite being linear, there is a difference in the force for the first half of the press. The only thing I can attribute it to is the internal leaf spring itself is reducing the spring force by a minute amount (namely, the force increases slightly after the key actuates). This is NOT just attributable to one keyboard for me, I have both a Noppoo and a Filco that exhibit similar behaviours (both boards being considered on completely different ends of the quality scale).
Post by: radish on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:04:52
Post by: Sygaldry on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:05:42
Once you go [Vintage] Black, you never go back.
Post by: slickmamba on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:06:40
Linear MX is Best MX.
Once you go [Vintage] Black, there's no turning back.
can you describe the difference from regular linears? (stock red/black)
Post by: WYW on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:09:24
Post by: Sygaldry on Mon, 16 February 2015, 12:18:29
They are are just much smoother and somehow feel softer when bottoming out.Linear MX is Best MX.
Once you go [Vintage] Black, there's no turning back.
can you describe the difference from regular linears? (stock red/black)
with new Blacks and Reds, you can still feel a bit of friction even when lubed compared to the vintage black's perfectly buttery smooth actuation.
Post by: snipars on Mon, 16 February 2015, 14:11:16
after a week or so of using them, i think i actually like typing and gaming on them as much as Topre.
they're really easy to touch type, as in not bottoming the switches out and just tapping the keycaps, a very satisfying way to type
Post by: ander on Mon, 16 February 2015, 19:32:38
After seeing Blacks described here and other places, I don't think I would've been interested in trying them, much less owning some. Again, it's not intuitive to think a stiffer switch could be easier to type on.
Then I visited a PC shop that happened to have a Black-switch KB out with a bunch of others. The types of switches weren't described (in retrospect, probably a good idea!). I typed on the Blacks and thought, "Wow! What kind of KB is this?" I kept coming back to it to compare it with the rest. I decided it was so good I had to have one. Was I surprised to learn it had Blacks. I thought it was some subtle design difference in the KB itself. The Blacks didn't actually feel stiffer; the KB just felt easier to use as a unit.
Think about buckling-spring switches on classic IBMs that people rave about so much... They're stiffer than Blacks and Clears. (I have an IBM now and love it too!)
Well, there you go. Enjoyed talking about this w/you.
Post by: jacobolus on Mon, 16 February 2015, 21:31:31
I typed on the Blacks and thought, "Wow! What kind of KB is this?" I kept coming back to it to compare it with the rest. I decided it was so good I had to have one. Was I surprised to learn it had Blacks. I thought it was some subtle design difference in the KB itself. The Blacks didn't actually feel stiffer; the KB just felt easier to use as a unit.
You owe it to yourself to try green complicated Alps switches sometime. :-) Or white space invader switches. Or lubed MX blacks with 62/65/67g “korean” springs in them, or with springs from MX clear switches.
MX blue, brown, and red are all on the very light side, and I suspect most people would prefer something stiffer. By contrast, I find MX black, clear, green, gray to be a bit too stiff. Model Ms are also too stiff, which is one reason that Model Fs are so appreciated: they’re a bit lighter. Something even a bit lighter (especially with a slightly shorter distance to the actuation point and slightly longer post-actuation travel distance) would be better still I think.
Have you ever tried any other varieties of mechanical keyswitches that weren’t MX or IBM model Ms?
Post by: Fragil1ty on Tue, 17 February 2015, 00:46:28
Wouldn't have it any other way really.
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 17 February 2015, 04:26:27
I just can't seem to like linears. Whenever I try, I kind of get used to them, but when I try my ErgoClear boards again I breath a sigh of relief at "coming home" again. They just takes less concentration / effort / focus to type on for me.I'm still putting a 62g Blacks board together, though, simply because they fit the theme of it :)
Post by: Metalmind on Sat, 18 July 2015, 13:11:24
I've used brown, blues, greens, reds and blacks for several time each one of them. The last kind of switches I tried was linears (red and black). Now I can say that linears are my favourite ones. I prefer reds over blacks right now.
I just realise that don't need feedback from the keys so I type faster on linears.
Post by: Sencha on Sun, 19 July 2015, 03:08:12
Post by: Metalmind on Sun, 19 July 2015, 03:24:19
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 20 July 2015, 08:48:00
Post by: Happylomo on Mon, 20 July 2015, 08:55:20
Post by: v0idtek on Mon, 20 July 2015, 12:46:11
Switched to a 60% poker with clears. Still great for gaming, nicer for typing. Feels like I make fewer accidental presses.
Can't say I hated the reds, these are just slightly nicer.
Post by: Neo.X on Mon, 20 July 2015, 14:26:07
Post by: ander on Mon, 20 July 2015, 19:26:36
Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious [and] unconscious... If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your [unconscious attention] to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything...
Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback...
What "uncertainty", though? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? (I assume you're not looking at your fingers, which would defeat the purpose of touch typing.) Visual feedback is quite superior to clicks and bumps, as it confirms you've typed the right character, not just a character. So why would you need tactile and/or aural feedback as well? Isn't that like wearing a belt and suspenders? (This thread has been going for a while now, so I may have already asked you this—if so, sorry for my senility.)
As I've probably said, I think it's fun to type on clicky/bumpy switches. I'm a musician, and to me the chatter of mechanical keys is a kind of music to accompany one's typing. That's fine. But if I found I was relying on clicks and/or bumps because I didn't trust my eyes, that'd be an insecurity I'd feel compelled to challenge.
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 20 July 2015, 19:33:55
because I didn't trust my eyes,
or ears?
Tactility is for the muscle memory in the fingers themselves.
Post by: Flyersfan1 on Mon, 20 July 2015, 19:42:10
Post by: chyros on Mon, 20 July 2015, 19:57:47
To me, tactility isn't about feedback - that's what clickiness is for. For me, tactility is about making you put in a certain amount of extra effort to press a key. Given enough force to overcome the tactility, you're sure to actuate the switch during or afterwards. With linears, you might be lulled into typing too lightly, because there's nothing to make you type strongly enough, thereby not actually actuating the switch. The clicky feedback is useful for me as I don't fully touch-type, I still look at my fingers sometimes, usually to "reset" my fingers properly, and I don't use the technique properly anyway (I don't use the right home buttons and I mainly hit the spacebar with my right index finger rather than my thumb. I also exclusively use the right shift).Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious [and] unconscious... If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your [unconscious attention] to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything...
Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback...
What "uncertainty", though? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? (I assume you're not looking at your fingers, which would defeat the purpose of touch typing.) Visual feedback is quite superior to clicks and bumps, as it confirms you've typed the right character, not just a character. So why would you need tactile and/or aural feedback as well? Isn't that like wearing a belt and suspenders? (This thread has been going for a while now, so I may have already asked you this—if so, sorry for my senility.)
Post by: wes1099 on Mon, 20 July 2015, 20:00:03
Post by: cheebs on Mon, 20 July 2015, 20:32:29
Well, statistics are tricky. If you tested a bunch of people and found that more of them typed better on tactile switches than on linears, you would have simply identified which people typed that way, and that there happened to be more of them in your study than the others. It wouldn't be proof that tactile switches were "better".
I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.
On the other hand, the switches are researched, designed, manufactured and ultimately sold in bulk to various companies. A company like American Airlines would not start taking custom orders for switch types for every different employee based on the way they type. Believe it or not, Cherry did not design their switches for personal preference of the end-user, but instead did so to accommodate various industry applications (office, factory, POS system, etc.). The company buying from Cherry chooses a switch that has an appropriate application (usually tactile for workstations, linear for wall-mounted keypads or other "key-punching" applications) for the task at hand, and buys thousands of keyboards with those switches. Tactility is of no concern when you are going to press a "next order", "total" or "void" button. You're looking directly at the key -- your finger movement will be much more direct, intentional and likely have more force behind it. When you're touch typing and reaching to press "Q" on a QWERTY layout, however, you need a little more confirmation. You're not looking directly at the key, your finger is not hovering over it, it's not separated from the rest of the keyboard, and it's surrounded by a cluster of other keys you don't want to press accidentally. The tactility is there to provide a barrier of intent as well as positive feedback for the touch typist. Sure you can press linear switches with sufficient force to solidly bottom out the key every time, so that the tactile bump is irrelevant, but why would you want to do that? It slows you down. The speed reduction from bottoming out every press is compensated for on a tactile switch by allowing your finger to decelerate after the bump is overcome. There's also the case of light typing, a scenario in which tactile switches excel and linear switches simply cannot operate reliably. Linear switches do not have this particular property, and for that reason I think they have very specific applications (extremely rapid, repeated presses such as in osu! or fighting games, or POS systems and/or industrial control systems).
think of it this way: TCP = tactile switch, UDP = linear switch ;D
Post by: davkol on Fri, 24 July 2015, 16:31:29
Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.
Post by: mashby on Tue, 28 July 2015, 11:17:13
Vintage ghost black master race reporting.
Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.
Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 28 July 2015, 11:19:11
Vintage ghost black master race reporting.
Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.
Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?
clear spring with black stem
Post by: davkol on Tue, 28 July 2015, 11:53:03
Black with red spring is red. Well, ghetto red, but that's irrelevant.Vintage ghost black master race reporting.
Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.
Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?
Spam is spot on.
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 28 July 2015, 12:03:22
Post by: Ryukuxyz on Tue, 28 July 2015, 12:13:32
Post by: inanis on Tue, 28 July 2015, 13:11:56
Post by: mashby on Tue, 28 July 2015, 13:27:40
i like bottoming out on my reds. no shame.
I like bottoming out on Blacks. :-)
@Spamray -- thanks for the memory refresher!
Post by: Davsmith4 on Tue, 28 July 2015, 14:42:24
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:10:52
Although, for a bottom out typist, someone who bottoms out hard, the clear/tactile switches also become linear, it's only tactile when you slow down
Sometimes I click the modifiers repeatedly/slowly while reading something etc., just to have fun, it's not too much fun with tactile, it gets a bit irritating, but it's really fun with linears, since the switches just move freely
This thread made me re-consider the 3rd/linear keyboard I was thinking about, but 3 keyboards is just too much, I will try to make due with my tactile/clicky duo
Post by: pr0ximity on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:38:45
I am a very big fan of tactile switches. I have been using Blues at the office (I know, I know, it is LOUD) and Buckling Spring at home. In an effort to find a quieter board for the office, I bought a V60 while back with MX Blacks and hated it. I got rid of it with in a few weeks. I borrowed a friends board with Reds, and I hated that too. Then I built out an Infinity with Gateron Clears, with the springs swapped from Gateron Blacks. This I really like. I'm typing on it now and I am enjoying myself to no end. They are so smooth it is a very nice typing experience. So it took a while to find a linear switch that I liked, but I'm pretty happy now with the one I have. I might still swap out the springs one more time, we'll see. I like to experiment. Really, the only struggle with this thing now is this damn non-standard layout. I actually like the layout, but I only have one set of caps that will cover it correctly and they are DSA, firmly NOT my preference. I can't wait to get something else that will fit on it, preferably Cherry profile.
This makes me very excited. Getting ready to put 62g springs in Gateron Blacks on my Majestouch.
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:51:24
I am a very big fan of tactile switches. I have been using Blues at the office (I know, I know, it is LOUD) and Buckling Spring at home. In an effort to find a quieter board for the office, I bought a V60 while back with MX Blacks and hated it. I got rid of it with in a few weeks. I borrowed a friends board with Reds, and I hated that too. Then I built out an Infinity with Gateron Clears, with the springs swapped from Gateron Blacks. This I really like. I'm typing on it now and I am enjoying myself to no end. They are so smooth it is a very nice typing experience. So it took a while to find a linear switch that I liked, but I'm pretty happy now with the one I have. I might still swap out the springs one more time, we'll see. I like to experiment. Really, the only struggle with this thing now is this damn non-standard layout. I actually like the layout, but I only have one set of caps that will cover it correctly and they are DSA, firmly NOT my preference. I can't wait to get something else that will fit on it, preferably Cherry profile.
I learned that you don't look for keycaps for your keyboards, you look for keyboards for your keysets, the hard way
I'm guessing that keyset is Granite, otherwise even most DSA sets don't have the 1u \| - or the 1.5u Delete, definitely not together
Indeed cherry switches are very annoying/scratchy, even after lubing them with krytox they are scratchy, only silicone was able to tame them from my experience, they also feel very clumsy and cheap in their default/raw forms
Post by: Jujucohn on Tue, 28 July 2015, 20:55:28
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 28 July 2015, 21:15:38
Post by: KHAANNN on Tue, 28 July 2015, 21:18:04
when it comes to cherries, i just hate tactile/clicky. they feel ridiculous, just wrong. i dig tactile switches, but not cherries.
what tactiles do you like?
Post by: nuzey on Wed, 29 July 2015, 00:37:51
when it comes to cherries, i just hate tactile/clicky. they feel ridiculous, just wrong. i dig tactile switches, but not cherries.
what tactiles do you like?
Topre :)
Post by: GenKaan on Wed, 29 July 2015, 07:51:54
Post by: cutterline on Wed, 29 July 2015, 09:01:08
By daytime, I use red switch and at night I use brown or matias quiet.
By doing that, I can appreciate the goodness of both world. I can enjoy the linear thoroughly and the subtle tactile of brown until I start ignoring the tactile feel altogether or feel the tactility of matias. I haven't tried Topre though, maybe when I drunk buy a novatouch.
One thing though, I hate heavy switches like black. It felt mushy to me, I even prefer logitech k100 over that.
Post by: BrewCaps on Wed, 29 July 2015, 10:42:17
Post by: Bucake on Wed, 29 July 2015, 10:47:47
maybe when I drunk buy a novatouch.
lol :D one way of increasing your assortment
when it comes to cherries, i just hate tactile/clicky. they feel ridiculous, just wrong. i dig tactile switches, but not cherries.
what tactiles do you like?
Topre :)
i actually do. why, is it weird to like one but dislike the other?
i'm thinking it might have to do with the fact that i tend to bottom out, no matter what switch i use.
typing on tactile cherries make me feel "why is this here", as i pass the click or bump. to me, they feel purposeless and that becomes a nuisance.
i can still understand why people like tactile cherries, though, as feedback is pretty sweet.
i guess the feedback from bottoming out on cherries is all i really need :cool:
Post by: paicrai on Wed, 29 July 2015, 12:39:59
Post by: ander on Thu, 30 July 2015, 03:22:55
To me, tactility isn't about feedback - that's what clickiness is for. For me, tactility is about making you put in a certain amount of extra effort to press a key. Given enough force to overcome the tactility, you're sure to actuate the switch during or afterwards. With linears, you might be lulled into typing too lightly, because there's nothing to make you type strongly enough, thereby not actually actuating the switch. The clicky feedback is useful for me as I don't fully touch-type, I still look at my fingers sometimes, usually to "reset" my fingers properly, and I don't use the technique properly anyway (I don't use the right home buttons and I mainly hit the spacebar with my right index finger rather than my thumb. I also exclusively use the right shift).
Your last sentence finally made sense to me. Now I get it. And yet there are many true touch typists who like tactility too. This is what I don't get—it's the "belt and suspenders" thing.
Post by: kingeta on Thu, 30 July 2015, 03:35:48
Post by: cutterline on Thu, 30 July 2015, 04:13:07
Your last sentence finally made sense to me. Now I get it. And yet there are many true touch typists who like tactility too. This is what I don't get—it's the "belt and suspenders" thing.I touch type and I like both ways. Maybe because before doing mechanical I was heavily using scissors. Linear is like deeper scissors with soft cloud pad to me
I think that what differentiates garbage rubber domes from topre and cherry (etc) switches, aside from the quality and durability, is the strong bump of pressing topre and tactile switches (having tried blues, browns, clears, blacks, reds, greens and 45g topre switches) vs the feeling of rubber domes, and I think that reds and blacks are not as bad as the usual rubber domes, but don't quite have the mechanical feeling of the other switches. Topre feel more like mechanical switches and less like rubber domes than reds/blacks.You must try gateron clear, it's like the smoothest linear I've ever tried and makes you notice the little gritty of red that you had ignored before.
Post by: ander on Sun, 09 August 2015, 04:22:39
Why, change my mind too, of course.
A friend of mine just got a Filco Majestouch with Cherry MX Blues. I tried it. Wow—it was just like the clicky KBs I loved using in the '80s!
And you don't need to be logical about clicky switches. They're just fun to type on. The sound and feeling can even stimulate your thoughts as you type. Whee!
So, I was entirely wrong, and I'm not afraid to admit it. Click away! Cheers, A.
Post by: Metalmind on Sun, 09 August 2015, 05:26:55
So.... Give a chance to greensShow Image(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a6/2e/df/a62edf0f39de560a219b7262163b0d45.jpg)
Why, change my mind too, of course.
A friend of mine just got a Filco Majestouch with Cherry MX Blues. I tried it. Wow—it was just like the clicky KBs I loved using in the '80s!
And you don't need to be logical about clicky switches. They're just fun to type on. The sound and feeling can even stimulate your thoughts as you type. Whee!
So, I was entirely wrong, and I'm not afraid to admit it. Click away! Cheers, A.
Post by: KHAANNN on Sun, 09 August 2015, 05:46:37
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 09 August 2015, 06:14:12
Post by: davkol on Sun, 09 August 2015, 06:21:43
Linear switches (and Thorpe) are good for when everyone else has gone to bed.I switch from linear switches to very quiet scissor switches, when some of my relatives go to bed, even in some other room. Properly dampened switches would be the only other option (other than a touchscreen or non-mechanical optical sensing), and I don't mean any stinkin' o-rings on keycaps.
Post by: raymogi on Sun, 09 August 2015, 06:23:43
But nothing beats typing on these Topres :D
Post by: ander on Sun, 09 August 2015, 07:09:06
So.... Give a chance to greens
Green Cherrys, you mean? They sound awesome (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Green), but where can you get them? Are they still made, or are we talking vintage treasure-hunting here?
And BTW, anyone who wants to, feel free to guffaw heartily at my previous switch-ignorance.
Post by: davkol on Sun, 09 August 2015, 07:30:23
Post by: Metalmind on Sun, 09 August 2015, 08:01:27
Yes, I mean cherry. I bougth mine a year ago at amazon USA. Cm storm quickfire stealth. Also I think there are ducky boards with cherry mx green. Wasd keyboards offers green switches too.So.... Give a chance to greens
Green Cherrys, you mean? They sound awesome (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Green), but where can you get them? Are they still made, or are we talking vintage treasure-hunting here?
And BTW, anyone who wants to, feel free to guffaw heartily at my previous switch-ignorance.
Ander, where are you from? Yo have a spanish name
Post by: keshley on Sun, 09 August 2015, 20:37:38
And that, to me, is a sign of a good keyboard. If I'm thinking about the keyboard, that means something is bugging me about it. If it fades from consciousness, then I've found the right combo.
Interestingly enough, I find I bottom out harder on clicky switches vs the browns I'm currently typing on. Even though actuation force is the same.
Post by: Metalmind on Mon, 10 August 2015, 04:36:02
Post by: ander on Mon, 10 August 2015, 05:25:13
Green Cherrys, you mean?
Yes, I mean cherry. I bougth mine a year ago at amazon USA. Cm storm quickfire stealth. Also I think there are ducky boards with cherry mx green. Wasd keyboards offers green switches too.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it right here (http://www.amazon.com/CM-Storm-QuickFire-Stealth-Mechanical/dp/B00C2MBG4I/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8). Wow!
Ander, where are you from? Yo have a spanish name...
Mi nombre no es Andrés. But I did grow up in Northern Mexico—a place called Los Angeles. ;?)
Post by: Cheeks on Mon, 07 May 2018, 10:36:28