I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.I wouldn't be so dismissive about the effect of the patent either. However, doesn't it go back to the 80s? It can't have many more years left on it.
Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.
You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.
Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?
You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.
Topre Heaven keyboard for lower price range(USD 150-180)
http://asia.cnet.com/topre-makes-affordable-type-heaven-keyboard-62221533.htm
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.
Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.
You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.
Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?
You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.
Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.
You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.
Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?
You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.(http://i.imgur.com/ikT5www.jpg)
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ikT5www.jpg)
Not quite. Leopold is the distributor, Topre is the manufacturer of the RealForce. The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.
The fact that nobody else is making them doesn't in any way prove that they're maintaining some sort of tight-fisted monopoly over Topre switches, ruling with some sort of iron-and-cup-rubber fist. If anything, the recent partnering with Leopold indicates that Topre is more than willing to work with other manufacturers to bring their switch technology to other markets.No, it is indicative of a company that had no interest in becoming a keyswitch OEM and desired full control of products containing the Topre switch. I think now they are expanding as a result of the newly massive mechanical keyboard gravy train. Too little, too late. See: Deck and (maybe) WASD.
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to. You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre. They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety. Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well. But there is a deal that will work. So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it. There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done.What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.
As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school. Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that. (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to. You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre. They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety. Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well. But there is a deal that will work. So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it. There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done.What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.
As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school. Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that. (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.
Idk where you are confused."Confused"? I have perfect clarity you are off topic. This wasn't about if it's possible to buy Topre from Topre, that is obvious, it is whether Topre's pricing reflects manufacturing difficulty and if the 'luxury item' factor is important or not.
Cost of manufacturing doesn't necessarily always reflect difficulty of manufacturingWell, it might use rare materials (I doubt it). Where is that indicated?
Or they might be using very expensive labor. Why is that efficient?
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/ikT5www.jpg)
Not quite. Leopold is the distributor, Topre is the manufacturer of the RealForce. The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.
Or they might be using very expensive labor. Why is that efficient?
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to. You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre. They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety. Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well. But there is a deal that will work. So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it. There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done.What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.
As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school. Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that. (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to. You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre. They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety. Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well. But there is a deal that will work. So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it. There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done.What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.
As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school. Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that. (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.
Hmm, I guess I did not read your posts closely enough. I guess you were just complaining that the price of a Topre RealForce keyboard is too high for your liking. As for the "difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value", I have no idea what this means. But I think you are trying to say that you do not like the idea that the price you pay for a Topre RealForce keyboard is higher than the cost of manufacturing the keyboard? If so, well, you are correct.
Let me try to address your concerns without being "nonsensical". First, there is something called "profit". And it is part of an economic system called "capitalism", and profits are defined to mean the surplus money that the capitalist gets to keep from the proceeds of every sale he makes, after subtracting his costs of producing the goods or services he sells. There is an alternative economic system called "communism" where the seller is not allowed to charge more than the cost of production. The communist system, is not a bad system, tbh, at least not theoretically. In practice however, it's proven problematic, but that might be simply because the implementation was flawed. Well regardless of the reason for the failure of communism to flourish worldwide, we have the opposite system: the capitalist system. Now I want you to know that everybody in the USA believes that the capitalist system is perfect, since they all know that all extraordinary profits will be driven out of the free-market by the great equalizer called "competition". Under competition, if somebody creates a great keyboard, then he will get a high price for it since it will be in high demand, and all the customers will flock to him, and he will get extraordinary profits. But then "competition" will kick in, and may other competitors will flood the market with keyboards that are just as good, driving the price down, making you happy. But there is a bugaboo - patents. Patents allow the capitalist to capture monopoly profits for a specified amount of time, as a reward for innovation (allegedly.) The capitalist with a patent has the right to earn monopoly profits by preventing other producers from entering the market to drive down the price of his monopoly goods. Of course, you have discovered that patents distort natural market forces, and you don't like that. Nobody likes the fact that patents distort market forces, except the monopolist, who argues that he needs the patent system to encourage him to continue to innovate. And you want innovation, you said so yourself.
Now, what I was saying in my earlier post is that you could increase the supply of Topre keyboards by acquiring a license to manufacture Topre Keyboards, well maybe not you, but somebody with some access to capital, and some business acumen could do it. This would drive prices down somewhat, because supply would increase. However, it would not totally eliminate the monopoly profits for the patent holder, since the licensee would be kicking back some of his profits to the patent-holder/ licensor, under the license agreement. In the end, the problem is that there may not be enough profit for the licensee to make it worth his while to invest in Topre keyboard manufacturing. But it seems that Leopold is trying to do such a thing right now with the FC660, and it seems that my theory of price pressure is working as well, since the price of the Leo FC660 is lower than the price of any Topre RealForce keyboard available anywhere.
Innnnnnnnnnnnteresting. Although I'm curious to know what would differentiate this company from the RealForce line. If they make an 87 key with that same compact style I'd definitely be interested.
I'm was at the topre booth in computex yesterday. The new type haven type and feel exactly like realforce version.
The abs keycap doesn't feel like crappy keycap found on most cherry keyboard.
According to topre, switch is made in Japan and ship over to china for final assembly
Calm down there buddy, we're just talking 'bout keyboards here.
but for real **** those stupid win-8 keys those are just ugly no matter what
This is infuriating. Not only you are incapable of understanding that I explicitly typed, twice, that I'm not talking about my benefit but the potential that the (switch) technology is mismanaged I'm also blatantly called a troll.
You deserve no one's time.
Who said it's the patent alone? Nothing costs 0. I said it's very likely that they pump the prices beyond any actually raised cost.
This is not about "mah money". It's bad for progress. You can't have only 1 company making them basically (plus one or two limited novelty designs by two locals) and expect for it to go beyond whatever they do on their own.
You keep being infuriatingly wrong. I've been accused of being a trouble maker when I've been put words in my mouth repeatedly and by different people. I wish you were in my position to see how amazing it is to be both misinterpreted and ganged on.
As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.
how evil topre isRead point 2 here to see humorously wrong you are. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44377.msg919621#msg919621
As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.
lel goodWhat a nerve to keep fishing for responses when you are the first to start the juvenile "you are a troll" war.
lel goodWhat a nerve to keep fishing for responses when you are the first to start the juvenile "you are a troll" war.
Whoever has a brain knows who is the actual troll now.
You keep being infuriatingly wrong. I've been accused of being a trouble maker when I've been put words in my mouth repeatedly and by different people. I wish you were in my position to see how amazing it is to be both misinterpreted and ganged on.
As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.
^ lol wtf?No. I'm sorry this circlejerk thinks it does anything but hurt the productivity of this site. It doesn't promote Topre, it gives it a bad reputation, it doesn't promote MX, if it's done from the other side, it just gives the impression of juvenile bickering. It doesn't even have the power to mute me of course since this is the Internet so if you want censorship go to North Korea.
In all honesty, sth finished you off with ****butt. Sorry dude.
I can't believe I'm actually appreciating tp's trolling ability.
I can't believe I'm actually appreciating tp's trolling ability.
The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.I heard the guts are Topre OEM. So if the Type Heaven is made by Topre in China, then 660C's guts is highly likely out of the same factory.
I really really wish it had dye sub PBT caps T____________T
I hate the feel of laser etched ABS....
would dye sub have raised the cost significantly?
I really really wish it had dye sub PBT caps T____________T
I hate the feel of laser etched ABS....
would dye sub have raised the cost significantly?
I really really wish it had dye sub PBT caps T____________T
I hate the feel of laser etched ABS....
would dye sub have raised the cost significantly?
yes, just look at how much EK charges for a full key set
now say EK makes 30% profit off of that keyset.
Still over $50 dollars in cost.
Here's some more pictures from KBDMANIA
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/news/6869261#41 (http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/news/6869261#41)Show Image(http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/files/attach/images/60/261/869/006/4616c335a9ba36f58327e02f2f9c1bf4.jpg)
Anyone try one of these yet? Haven't seen many 104U keyboards with uniform weighting since they discontinued the 103U. This looks like the only 45g uniform 104 keyboard in NA at the moment.
Anyone try one of these yet? Haven't seen many 104U keyboards with uniform weighting since they discontinued the 103U. This looks like the only 45g uniform 104 keyboard in NA at the moment.It types pretty much just like a Realforce. The keycaps has some sort of coating on it (feels a bit rubbery), so those lasered legend shouldn't get dirty as fast as those FC660C. It looks nicer than Realforce IMO. Haven't take it apart yet, so I don't know how well it is put together on the inside.
Numpad on the right is uncomfortable if you're using a mouse with the right hand. Ideally, we could do everything with the keyboard, but not always practical.
Numpad on the right is uncomfortable if you're using a mouse with the right hand. Ideally, we could do everything with the keyboard, but not always practical.
Oh no I meant I don't see why you'd want a tenkeyless (80%) over this (Leopold FC660C 60%). So in this case there's no real benefit to make a tenkeyless (80%) Type Heaven.
Numpad on the right is uncomfortable if you're using a mouse with the right hand. Ideally, we could do everything with the keyboard, but not always practical.
Oh no I meant I don't see why you'd want a tenkeyless (80%) over this (Leopold FC660C 60%). So in this case there's no real benefit to make a tenkeyless (80%) Type Heaven.
While I don't think Topre will make a TKL Type Heaven any time soon, I disagree that there's no real benefit to having one. For a variety of reasons, not everyone will like the layout of the FC660C, especially those who need the Function row and the six keys above the arrows.
For example, in my case, while I use the FC660C and like it very much, I do miss the dedicated tilde at times.