Author Topic: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)  (Read 30944 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline missalaire

  • Great Finder of Great Finds
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1405
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 10:05:25 »
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 14:28:29 by missalaire »
Ducky DK9008S2 Blue LED | Ducky DK2108S OMG | Ducky DK9008S2 White LED | Ducky YOTD | CM QuickFire TK LE | Filco MJ2 TKL custom | Trik Alu Skin Custom

Mechanical keyboards are primarily vessels for novelty keycaps...
Please do NOT PM me regarding finding deals for specific products, I do not take personal requests!

Offline AKIMbO

  • HHKBro
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Know Topre, Know Peace. No Topre, No Peace.
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 10:08:21 »
Cool....caps look lasered but all the spacing is consistent with the current Realforce lineup (so you could easily swap in a full set of dyesubbed caps).
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 10:51:46 »
Innnnnnnnnnnnteresting. Although I'm curious to know what would differentiate this company from the RealForce line. If they make an 87 key with that same compact style I'd definitely be interested.

Offline Michael

  • Formerly Bro Caps
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4632
  • REEEeeeeEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeee
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 10:55:15 »
Looks like the same company that makes TypeNow Solid

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:33:58 »
I'm almost angry about their patent. Production difficulty, even if raised can not justify the humongous raise. I wish there was a way to clone it legally or go around it. Or at least to wise up and mass produce it to competitive prices. Right now only their overpriced models have it, the overpriced niche keyboard, and a model of koreans next door that even them appear to treat it as a novelty since they don't go beyond a single model.

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:40:01 »
@fateswarm: This has been discussed to death. It's not the patent alone that drives the price up, that's just one of many factors that makes the RF/HHKB boards so expensive.

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:44:10 »
Who said it's the patent alone? Nothing costs 0. I said it's very likely that they pump the prices beyond any actually raised cost.

This is not about "mah money". It's bad for progress. You can't have only 1 company making them basically (plus one or two limited novelty designs by two locals) and expect for it to go beyond whatever they do on their own.

They've obviously taken the decision to treat it as a "luxury product" and I don't like that. I like technology, not novelty for the sake of novelty. You can have your opinion but that's mine.

edit: Plus look at this image alone of this very thread. It's identical to designs used for luxury watches and jewelry.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 11:48:22 by fateswarm »

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 12:01:28 »
I don't think anybody's "expecting for it to go beyond whatever they do on their own".

The thing is, there just isn't as high a demand for Topre switch based products as there is for Cherry MX based products. The cost to manufacture (not just the cost of materials) a Topre board is higher than a Cherry MX based board. Combined with dye sub PBTs, and the fact that RealForce/Topre is a business and has to have some markup at least to make any money, and you end up with a higher price.

The fact that nobody else is making them doesn't in any way prove that they're maintaining some sort of tight-fisted monopoly over Topre switches, ruling with some sort of iron-and-cup-rubber fist. If anything, the recent partnering with Leopold indicates that Topre is more than willing to work with other manufacturers to bring their switch technology to other markets.

The simplest explanation (see Occam's Razor), is that no other companies are interested in making/selling a Topre board, because the market doesn't demand it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 12:29:29 by daerid »

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 12:08:13 »
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.

Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.

You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.

Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?

You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.

Offline Burz

  • Posts: 248
  • maybe get a blister on yo' little finger...
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 13:10:21 »
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.

Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.

You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.

Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?

You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.
I wouldn't be so dismissive about the effect of the patent either. However, doesn't it go back to the 80s? It can't have many more years left on it.

As for Cherry, they seem almost as asleep as Topre. Their only medium-weight tactile switch is the annoying MX blue. Enthusiasts make their own 'ergo clear' switch modifications, and they don't pick up on it.
Matias Mini QuietPro  \\ Dell AT101W - Black ALPS  \\ SIIG MiniTouch x2 White XM - Monterey  \\ Colemak layout.

Offline missalaire

  • Great Finder of Great Finds
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1405
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 14:28:10 »
Topre Heaven keyboard for lower price range(USD 150-180)

http://asia.cnet.com/topre-makes-affordable-type-heaven-keyboard-62221533.htm
Ducky DK9008S2 Blue LED | Ducky DK2108S OMG | Ducky DK9008S2 White LED | Ducky YOTD | CM QuickFire TK LE | Filco MJ2 TKL custom | Trik Alu Skin Custom

Mechanical keyboards are primarily vessels for novelty keycaps...
Please do NOT PM me regarding finding deals for specific products, I do not take personal requests!

Offline AKIMbO

  • HHKBro
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Know Topre, Know Peace. No Topre, No Peace.
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 14:32:43 »
Topre Heaven keyboard for lower price range(USD 150-180)

http://asia.cnet.com/topre-makes-affordable-type-heaven-keyboard-62221533.htm

Lasered ABS....ewwwwwww.  But seriously, I like how topre is bringing some new entry level boards into the mix (F660C & Type Heaven).  Now we just need some freaking red alert key caps!
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 18:12:20 »
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.

Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.

You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.

Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?

You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.

Calm down there buddy, we're just talking 'bout keyboards here.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 18:20:11 »
I never used the word prove so stop putting words in other people's mouths, I explicitly said it's very likely.

Also are you familiar with the demand-supply curves with pricing on the X-axis? High prices drop demand.

You have nerve deciding people think in absolutes when you obviously are even more certain than myself.

Have you considered the possibility Topre is not a keyboard company-only and they may not care about that product as much as they should? Are you sure the patent in the hands of someone else, say Cherry wouldn't be treated differently?

You seem so certain when the variables are so many. I'm certainly not certain though.

lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C. im a poopy butt
« Last Edit: Tue, 04 June 2013, 20:05:17 by sth »
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 19:22:16 »
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.


Not quite. Leopold is the distributor, Topre is the manufacturer of the RealForce. The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.

Offline sherryton

  • * Vendor
  • Posts: 881
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Kībōdo
    • Originative
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 19:41:09 »
Topre is finally expanding!  Maybe we can get some new PBT keycaps made soon.

I have talked to some companies, but the molds are costly. 

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 20:05:01 »
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.
Show Image


Not quite. Leopold is the distributor, Topre is the manufacturer of the RealForce. The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.

dangert. i thought they were actually producing the boards as well. thanks mang.
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 20:05:49 »
but for real **** those stupid win-8 keys those are just ugly no matter what
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline Hak Foo

  • Posts: 1272
  • Make America Clicky Again!
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 20:13:06 »
The look is very "Ducky 1008XM", with the lasered caps and overall finish.

Maybe it looks better in person, but when you're paying a hundred fifty bucks for a keyboard, it better have transcendant fit and finish.
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline jabar

  • Posts: 848
  • Location: TX, USA
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 04 June 2013, 20:19:59 »
The fact that nobody else is making them doesn't in any way prove that they're maintaining some sort of tight-fisted monopoly over Topre switches, ruling with some sort of iron-and-cup-rubber fist. If anything, the recent partnering with Leopold indicates that Topre is more than willing to work with other manufacturers to bring their switch technology to other markets.
No, it is indicative of a company that had no interest in becoming a keyswitch OEM and desired full control of products containing the Topre switch. I think now they are expanding as a result of the newly massive mechanical keyboard gravy train. Too little, too late. See: Deck and (maybe) WASD.
Leopold FC660C - Max Keyboard Nighthawk X8 - Ducky DK9008 Shine II 78 Edition - Noppoo Choc Mini - Cherry G80-2100HDD - Cherry G80-8113HDPUS - Plu-M87 - Leopold FC700R Ergo Clears - Deck Legend Frost 105 - IBM F PC Keyboard - IBM M 122 (Lexmark) - Apple Extended Keyboard II

Phantom 7bit

Offline morpheus

  • Posts: 496
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 01:29:40 »
I want one.

Offline eth0s

  • Posts: 1137
  • Location: New York City
  • Peace & Love
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 01:50:02 »
"To lower the cost of production, it will be made in China, and lose some features found in the company's other 104-key keyboard, the Realforce 104U, which costs US$235. The Type Heaven will not have dip switches to tweak options such as swapping the Ctrl and Caps Lock keys. It will come with laser-etched keycaps made of ABS plastic, which are less expensive compared with the dye-subbed PBT keycaps on the Realforce." ~ John Chan from Asia cnet. http://asia.cnet.com/topre-makes-affordable-type-heaven-keyboard-62221533.htm. (as cited above.)

So the way Topre is going to make it cheaper is just to make it crappier.  Made in China, instead of Japan.  Lasered ABS, instead of Dye subbed PBT.  No dip switches to customize keys.  So basically you lose a lot of what makes a Topre keyboard great.  All you retain is the actual Topre keyswitches, which I guess is pretty good.  But you cannot get silenced Topre switches or 55g switches, or variable 30g/35g/45g.  So this is not something really I think I would recommend.  The $150 price is a bit high for what you are getting, IMO.  If it was $99, well, that would be another story.  But at $150, I would honestly just tell people to pony up another 85 bucks, and get the authentic Topre RealForce, not this Chinese clone.  That's just my opinion though.  I guess if another $85 is going to break somebody, well I dunno, do they really need a luxury keyboard then?

As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to.  You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre.  They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety.  Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well.  But there is a deal that will work.   So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it.  There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done. 

As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school.  Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that.  (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)

I ♥ Click Clack.  I ♥♥♥ Bro Caps.

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 03:49:34 »
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to.  You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre.  They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety.  Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well.  But there is a deal that will work.   So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it.  There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done. 

As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school.  Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that.  (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.

Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.

Offline AKIMbO

  • HHKBro
  • Posts: 1778
  • Location: Tennessee
  • Know Topre, Know Peace. No Topre, No Peace.
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:04:18 »
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to.  You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre.  They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety.  Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well.  But there is a deal that will work.   So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it.  There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done. 

As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school.  Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that.  (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.

Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.

What he wrote makes perfect sense.  You can purchase a license from topre to use their patent.  Idk where you are confused.  Who knows what topre charges for a license or any restrictions they place upon the licensee.
Mkawa Beta SSK | IBM SSK | IBM Model AT F | IBM F 122 | IBM Unsaver | LZ-GH (62g ergo clears) | HHKB Pro2 Type-S | HHKB Pro2 | Realforce 87U-Silent (55g uniform) | Leopold FC660C | Omnikey 101 (blue alps) | Kingsaver (blue alps) | Zenith ZKB2 (green alps)
| KBD75 (box reds)

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:19:22 »
Cost of manufacturing doesn't necessarily always reflect difficulty of manufacturing

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:33:18 »
Idk where you are confused.
"Confused"? I have perfect clarity you are off topic. This wasn't about if it's possible to buy Topre from Topre, that is obvious, it is whether Topre's pricing reflects manufacturing difficulty and if the 'luxury item' factor is important or not.
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:49:16 by fateswarm »

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:35:43 »
Cost of manufacturing doesn't necessarily always reflect difficulty of manufacturing
Well, it might use rare materials (I doubt it). Where is that indicated?

Or they might be using very expensive labor. Why is that efficient?
« Last Edit: Wed, 05 June 2013, 10:50:43 by fateswarm »

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 11:41:43 »
Or they might be using very expensive labor. Why is that efficient?

Made in Japan.

Also, consider negative externalities.

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 11:50:14 »
I'm curious: Have you tried a Topre board? If so, did you like it?

I'm just wondering where all this "mraahh topre costs too much" rage comes from (you're not the first, and certainly won't be the last).

Offline Lu_e

  • Posts: 652
  • Location: NWUSA
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 12:45:15 »
His OP has a few .... And i think its pretty easy to tell he and myself as well, is/are annoyed with the lack of options when it comes to topre. Until a little while ago you had 1 option to get a somewhat standard layout topre switch kb.  One manufacturer option and one seller, how is that a good thing?

Just say NO to ABS keycaps

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 12:50:07 »
I wouldn't argue it's a good thing in the long run, but you gotta start somewhere.

I still maintain that we'll start seeing more options when consumer demand goes up, not before.

Offline DaveyG

  • Posts: 9
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 15:02:10 »
lol @ cherry being better suited to produce keyboards than topre (seriously the majority of their MX based boards are PCB mounted flimsy lightweights and are honestly nothing special unless you're a cherry-specific collector), with perhaps a few exceptions.
and for the record Leopold is the company that manufactures many of the keyboards that utilize Topre capacitive technology including the RealForce line and the 660C.
Show Image


Not quite. Leopold is the distributor, Topre is the manufacturer of the RealForce. The FC660C is the only Topre board (that I know of) that's manufactured by Leopold.

I'm actually finding the branding a little confusing right now. My original RF has a sticker on the back that says Topre Realforce... along with the Topre Corporation logo. My new one says Leopold Realforce - no mention of Topre Corp. Both are "Made in Japan". The new box is the same as the old but the original Topre sticker has been covered (very carefully) by a Leopold sticker, you can just about make out the Topre Corporation logo on the sticker underneath. Doesn't say anything about being distributed by Leopold and I had assumed that Leopold are now manufacturing them. Curious.
                   
   RF 87u 55g            RF 87u 45g          Filco Ninja TKL       Filco Ninja TKL       Filco Majestouch II

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 15:29:47 »

Or they might be using very expensive labor. Why is that efficient?


EFFICIENCY REIGNS **** POORS
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline Hyde

  • Posts: 2643
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • White Tofu Extraordinaire
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 16:39:27 »
Mmmmmm I wonder when they'll start carrying this.  Looks really good so far and like people said you can easily replace the keycaps with PBT from Realforce.

Finally a modern looking Topre.

Archiss ProgresTouch Retro - Gateron Yellow  |  Topre Realforce 104UW - 45g Silent  |  Topre Type Heaven  |  Beige Filco Ninja 104 - MX Red  |  Das Keyboard - MX Brown  |  Poker II - MX Red  |  Race II - MX Brown  |  Matias Quiet Pro - Matias Dampened ALPS  |  Logitech K840 - Romer G  |  Cherry MX Board 2.0 - MX Red  |  Cherry G84-4100 - ML  |  IBM Model M
Roccat Kone Pure  |  Logitech G203  |  Logitech G303  |  Logitech G302  |  Razer Naga  |  CM Storm Xornet  |  Razer Goliathus Mobile Stealth  |  Razer Goliathus Control  |  Artisan Hien  |  Artisan Hayate  |  Artisan Shiden

Offline eth0s

  • Posts: 1137
  • Location: New York City
  • Peace & Love
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 17:58:44 »
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to.  You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre.  They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety.  Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well.  But there is a deal that will work.   So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it.  There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done. 

As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school.  Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that.  (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.

Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.

Hmm, I guess I did not read your posts closely enough.  I guess you were just complaining that the price of a Topre RealForce keyboard is too high for your liking.  As for the "difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value",  I have no idea what this means.  But I think you are trying to say that you do not like the idea that the price you pay for a Topre RealForce keyboard is higher than the cost of manufacturing the keyboard?  If so, well, you are correct. 

Let me try to address your concerns without being "nonsensical".  First, there is something called "profit".   And it is part of an economic system called "capitalism", and profits are defined to mean the surplus money that the capitalist gets to keep from the proceeds of every sale he makes, after subtracting his costs of producing the goods or services he sells.  There is an alternative economic system called "communism" where the seller is not allowed to charge more than the cost of production.  The communist system, is not a bad system, tbh, at least not theoretically.  In practice however, it's proven problematic, but that might be simply because the implementation was flawed.  Well regardless of the reason for the failure of communism to flourish worldwide, we have the opposite system:  the capitalist system.  Now I want you to know that everybody in the USA believes that the capitalist system is perfect, since they all know that all extraordinary profits will be driven out of the free-market by the great equalizer called "competition".  Under competition, if somebody creates a great keyboard, then he will get a high price for it since it will be in high demand, and all the customers will flock to him, and he will get extraordinary profits.  But then "competition" will kick in, and may other competitors will flood the market with keyboards that are just as good, driving the price down, making you happy.  But there is a bugaboo - patents.  Patents allow the capitalist to capture monopoly profits for a specified amount of time, as a reward for innovation (allegedly.)  The capitalist with a patent has the right to earn monopoly profits by preventing other producers from entering the market to drive down the price of his monopoly goods.  Of course, you have discovered that patents distort natural market forces, and you don't like that.  Nobody likes the fact that patents distort market forces, except the monopolist, who argues that he needs the patent system to encourage him to continue to innovate.  And you want innovation, you said so yourself. 

Now, what I was saying in my earlier post is that you could increase the supply of Topre keyboards by acquiring a license to manufacture Topre Keyboards, well maybe not you, but somebody with some access to capital, and some business acumen could do it.  This would drive prices down somewhat, because supply would increase.  However, it would not totally eliminate the monopoly profits for the patent holder, since the licensee would be kicking back some of his profits to the patent-holder/ licensor, under the license agreement.  In the end, the problem is that there may not be enough profit for the licensee to make it worth his while to invest in Topre keyboard manufacturing.  But it seems that Leopold is trying to do such a thing right now with the FC660, and it seems that my theory of price pressure is working as well, since the price of the Leo FC660 is lower than the price of any Topre RealForce keyboard available anywhere.     
I ♥ Click Clack.  I ♥♥♥ Bro Caps.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 18:04:28 »
As for the Topre patent, you can rent the patent if you really want to.  You can ask for a license to manufacture, and they may grant you one, but of course you have to share your profits with Topre.  They may also demand cash upfront, or a bond, or some other surety.  Also they may require certain quality assurances, and they may require design approval as well.  But there is a deal that will work.   So there is no reason somebody who wants to make keyboards with Topre switches cannot do it.  There are some hoops to jump through, but it can be done. 

As for supply and demand curves, in the real world, things don't always work out like they taught you in school.  Those eggheads in the Econ. Dept. never spent a single day in the real world, just remember that.  (I sound like Thornton Mellon in "Back to School", lol.)
What you wrote there has the external appearance of logic but it's nonsensical. The point is not that you 'can' do it but that it's very high priced, potentially, compared to the real difficulty of manufacturing.

Nobody said you 'can't' do it. Of course you can do it. You can go to the moon if you have the billions. This is about difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value. So you're off topic.

Hmm, I guess I did not read your posts closely enough.  I guess you were just complaining that the price of a Topre RealForce keyboard is too high for your liking.  As for the "difficulty of manufacturing reflecting, or not, the actual market value",  I have no idea what this means.  But I think you are trying to say that you do not like the idea that the price you pay for a Topre RealForce keyboard is higher than the cost of manufacturing the keyboard?  If so, well, you are correct. 

Let me try to address your concerns without being "nonsensical".  First, there is something called "profit".   And it is part of an economic system called "capitalism", and profits are defined to mean the surplus money that the capitalist gets to keep from the proceeds of every sale he makes, after subtracting his costs of producing the goods or services he sells.  There is an alternative economic system called "communism" where the seller is not allowed to charge more than the cost of production.  The communist system, is not a bad system, tbh, at least not theoretically.  In practice however, it's proven problematic, but that might be simply because the implementation was flawed.  Well regardless of the reason for the failure of communism to flourish worldwide, we have the opposite system:  the capitalist system.  Now I want you to know that everybody in the USA believes that the capitalist system is perfect, since they all know that all extraordinary profits will be driven out of the free-market by the great equalizer called "competition".  Under competition, if somebody creates a great keyboard, then he will get a high price for it since it will be in high demand, and all the customers will flock to him, and he will get extraordinary profits.  But then "competition" will kick in, and may other competitors will flood the market with keyboards that are just as good, driving the price down, making you happy.  But there is a bugaboo - patents.  Patents allow the capitalist to capture monopoly profits for a specified amount of time, as a reward for innovation (allegedly.)  The capitalist with a patent has the right to earn monopoly profits by preventing other producers from entering the market to drive down the price of his monopoly goods.  Of course, you have discovered that patents distort natural market forces, and you don't like that.  Nobody likes the fact that patents distort market forces, except the monopolist, who argues that he needs the patent system to encourage him to continue to innovate.  And you want innovation, you said so yourself. 

Now, what I was saying in my earlier post is that you could increase the supply of Topre keyboards by acquiring a license to manufacture Topre Keyboards, well maybe not you, but somebody with some access to capital, and some business acumen could do it.  This would drive prices down somewhat, because supply would increase.  However, it would not totally eliminate the monopoly profits for the patent holder, since the licensee would be kicking back some of his profits to the patent-holder/ licensor, under the license agreement.  In the end, the problem is that there may not be enough profit for the licensee to make it worth his while to invest in Topre keyboard manufacturing.  But it seems that Leopold is trying to do such a thing right now with the FC660, and it seems that my theory of price pressure is working as well, since the price of the Leo FC660 is lower than the price of any Topre RealForce keyboard available anywhere.     

TLDR that guy's a troll
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline Macsmasher

  • Posts: 462
  • Location: Portland, OR
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 19:05:40 »
Innnnnnnnnnnnteresting. Although I'm curious to know what would differentiate this company from the RealForce line. If they make an 87 key with that same compact style I'd definitely be interested.

TKL or compact for me as well. I'll never go back to a 104 key layout. And I'd also want to know where it's made. RF and HHKB are made in Japan and it shows.

Offline eugenizer

  • Posts: 10
  • Location: earth
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 22:18:40 »
I'm was at the topre booth in computex yesterday. The new type haven type and feel exactly like realforce version.
The abs keycap doesn't feel like crappy keycap found on most cherry keyboard.
According to topre, switch is made in Japan and ship over to china for final assembly

Offline Hyde

  • Posts: 2643
  • Location: Toronto, Canada
  • White Tofu Extraordinaire
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 05 June 2013, 22:39:08 »
I'm was at the topre booth in computex yesterday. The new type haven type and feel exactly like realforce version.
The abs keycap doesn't feel like crappy keycap found on most cherry keyboard.
According to topre, switch is made in Japan and ship over to china for final assembly

Ahhhh that's good to know, I was worried that the ABS will feel different than the PBT.

Archiss ProgresTouch Retro - Gateron Yellow  |  Topre Realforce 104UW - 45g Silent  |  Topre Type Heaven  |  Beige Filco Ninja 104 - MX Red  |  Das Keyboard - MX Brown  |  Poker II - MX Red  |  Race II - MX Brown  |  Matias Quiet Pro - Matias Dampened ALPS  |  Logitech K840 - Romer G  |  Cherry MX Board 2.0 - MX Red  |  Cherry G84-4100 - ML  |  IBM Model M
Roccat Kone Pure  |  Logitech G203  |  Logitech G303  |  Logitech G302  |  Razer Naga  |  CM Storm Xornet  |  Razer Goliathus Mobile Stealth  |  Razer Goliathus Control  |  Artisan Hien  |  Artisan Hayate  |  Artisan Shiden

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 04:47:29 »
This is infuriating. Not only you are incapable of understanding that I explicitly typed, twice, that I'm not talking about my benefit but the potential that the (switch) technology is mismanaged I'm also blatantly called a troll.

You deserve no one's time.

Offline samwisekoi

  • MAWG since 1997
  • * Administrator
  • Posts: 2480
  • Location: Mt. View, California
  • Sorry, moving houses. Be back ASAP.
    • Tweet samwisekoi
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 08:43:57 »
Calm down there buddy, we're just talking 'bout keyboards here.

^^^ This.

This is a keyboard thread in the keyboard sub-forum.  Anyone who wants to discuss the glories or evils of Capitalism needs to go to the Off-Topic sub-forum and find a relevant thread there.

but for real **** those stupid win-8 keys those are just ugly no matter what

^^^ Also, this.

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline hashbaz

  • Grand Ancient One
  • * Moderator Emeritus
  • Posts: 5057
  • Location: SF Bae Area
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 11:35:40 »
This is infuriating. Not only you are incapable of understanding that I explicitly typed, twice, that I'm not talking about my benefit but the potential that the (switch) technology is mismanaged I'm also blatantly called a troll.

You deserve no one's time.

Easy son.  Please don't derail this thread further.  You can do what you want in your MX vs. Topre thread.

Offline metalliqaz

  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4951
  • Location: the Making Stuff subforum
  • Leopold fanboy
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 11:44:17 »
Who said it's the patent alone? Nothing costs 0. I said it's very likely that they pump the prices beyond any actually raised cost.

This is not about "mah money". It's bad for progress. You can't have only 1 company making them basically (plus one or two limited novelty designs by two locals) and expect for it to go beyond whatever they do on their own.

I'm not sure you understand the point of patents. 

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 12:29:19 »
You keep being infuriatingly wrong. I've been accused of being a trouble maker when I've been put words in my mouth repeatedly and by different people. I wish you were in my position to see how amazing it is to be both misinterpreted and ganged on.

As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.

Offline SpAmRaY

  • NOT a Moderator
  • * Certified Spammer
  • Posts: 14667
  • Location: ¯\(°_o)/¯
  • because reasons.......
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 12:56:56 »
You keep being infuriatingly wrong. I've been accused of being a trouble maker when I've been put words in my mouth repeatedly and by different people. I wish you were in my position to see how amazing it is to be both misinterpreted and ganged on.

As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.

What's with all the hate?

Are you tiring of your lubed browns and don't have anything else to talk about besides how evil topre is because they are expensive?



Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 13:02:54 »

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 13:32:08 »
As I said, you deserve no further discussion on the actual subject. Enjoy your circlejerk. I'm out.

lel good
11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 13:34:24 »
lel good
What a nerve to keep fishing for responses when you are the first to start the juvenile "you are a troll" war.

Whoever has a brain knows who is the actual troll now.

Offline sth

  • 2 girls 1 cuprubber
  • Posts: 3438
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #48 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 13:51:43 »
lel good
What a nerve to keep fishing for responses when you are the first to start the juvenile "you are a troll" war.

Whoever has a brain knows who is the actual troll now.

11:48 -!- SmallFry [~SmallFry@unaffiliated/smallfry] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] ... rest in peace

Offline fateswarm

  • Posts: 170
Re: Topre Type Heaven pictured at Computex 2013 ($150-180)
« Reply #49 on: Thu, 06 June 2013, 14:21:04 »