Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:
I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:
I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
It's not extra force, it's still 45g to actuation. For gaming, I prefer Reds, but Browns, when I tried them, were much better for typing.
Also, there aren't any O-rings on the keyboards. Thought you should know that O-rings are aftermarket.
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
It's not extra force, it's still 45g to actuation. For gaming, I prefer Reds, but Browns, when I tried them, were much better for typing.
Also, there aren't any O-rings on the keyboards. Thought you should know that O-rings are aftermarket.
It is extra force...look at the force diagrams...same spring but the tactile bump adds to the resistance...It isn't a huge difference but enough to where you can feel it..using them side by side you can feel the difference...
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
It's not extra force, it's still 45g to actuation. For gaming, I prefer Reds, but Browns, when I tried them, were much better for typing.
Also, there aren't any O-rings on the keyboards. Thought you should know that O-rings are aftermarket.
It is extra force...look at the force diagrams...same spring but the tactile bump adds to the resistance...It isn't a huge difference but enough to where you can feel it..using them side by side you can feel the difference...
There's a bump; it's still 45g. The amount of pressure required to go past the bump hardly exists.
i think the tactile bump will just slow me down since i wont even feel it and its just extra force. IDK how to embed a video in here but if you go to the link in the original post you will see the keyboard movements i do.
It's not extra force, it's still 45g to actuation. For gaming, I prefer Reds, but Browns, when I tried them, were much better for typing.
Also, there aren't any O-rings on the keyboards. Thought you should know that O-rings are aftermarket.
It is extra force...look at the force diagrams...same spring but the tactile bump adds to the resistance...It isn't a huge difference but enough to where you can feel it..using them side by side you can feel the difference...
There's a bump; it's still 45g. The amount of pressure required to go past the bump hardly exists.
See the force graph...compare the two...it most definitely exists..
They both actuate at 45g..but 45g actuation on brown is after the bump...on reds it is linear...to actually get over the tactile bump on brown you're over 50g.
Two things: first of all, periods do not act as commas, no matter how many you use.
Second, I have seen the force graph. I've also tried the switch and listened to the opinions of many users; about all of us agree that the tactility is very light, hardly noticeable. It might be higher, but it's again still low enough that it's not noticeable.
Two things: first of all, periods do not act as commas, no matter how many you use.
Second, I have seen the force graph. I've also tried the switch and listened to the opinions of many users; about all of us agree that the tactility is very light, hardly noticeable. It might be higher, but it's again still low enough that it's not noticeable.
And people shouldn't make comments about stuff they haven't used but that hasn't stopped you. Attack my ... all you want...does it help your argument?
No.
Why? Cause you're wrong. It requires more force. That is a fact. It is an actual objective fact. You're wrong. Move on.
Changing your argument now to "it is more but it doesn't feel like it" should have been your original argument...but you quoted how they're both 45g..which means you completely ignored the fact that the bump requires MORE force than the actuation point...probably because you didn't know....
Game. Set. Match.
Funny guy polymer. Offended when I point out something unrelated and completely separate it, telling everyone that it has nothing to do with the argument.
Have fun convincing everyone that the tactility is significant. I'm sure that they'll agree with you.
Really it's pretty sad watching you take some self-righteous opinion on and making it seem even more wrong than it is. Continue arguing with yourself. //thread
Funny guy polymer. Offended when I point out something unrelated and completely separate it, telling everyone that it has nothing to do with the argument.
Have fun convincing everyone that the tactility is significant. I'm sure that they'll agree with you.
Really it's pretty sad watching you take some self-righteous opinion on and making it seem even more wrong than it is. Continue arguing with yourself. //thread
I'm not offended at all...I just think it is a pathetic attempt to deflect your mistake.
The bump requires more force. It isn't an argument, it is a fact. You argued they're both 45g so therefore it doesn't require more force..but that doesn't make any sense since the 45g is after bump and after the drop off.
Continue to make your bad argument..hide the fact that you made a mistake....why not just man up and say you didn't realize they were different?
BOOM. HEADSHOT.
Funny guy polymer. Offended when I point out something unrelated and completely separate it, telling everyone that it has nothing to do with the argument.
Have fun convincing everyone that the tactility is significant. I'm sure that they'll agree with you.
Really it's pretty sad watching you take some self-righteous opinion on and making it seem even more wrong than it is. Continue arguing with yourself. //thread
I'm not offended at all...I just think it is a pathetic attempt to deflect your mistake.
The bump requires more force. It isn't an argument, it is a fact. You argued they're both 45g so therefore it doesn't require more force..but that doesn't make any sense since the 45g is after bump and after the drop off.
Continue to make your bad argument..hide the fact that you made a mistake....why not just man up and say you didn't realize they were different?
BOOM. HEADSHOT.
Polymer... you can chill dude... I think the point is that when typing fast... the bump on browns is below the just-noticeable threshold... It's just too small.
Funny guy polymer. Offended when I point out something unrelated and completely separate it, telling everyone that it has nothing to do with the argument.
Have fun convincing everyone that the tactility is significant. I'm sure that they'll agree with you.
Really it's pretty sad watching you take some self-righteous opinion on and making it seem even more wrong than it is. Continue arguing with yourself. //thread
I'm not offended at all...I just think it is a pathetic attempt to deflect your mistake.
The bump requires more force. It isn't an argument, it is a fact. You argued they're both 45g so therefore it doesn't require more force..but that doesn't make any sense since the 45g is after bump and after the drop off.
Continue to make your bad argument..hide the fact that you made a mistake....why not just man up and say you didn't realize they were different?
BOOM. HEADSHOT.
Polymer... you can chill dude... I think the point is that when typing fast... the bump on browns is below the just-noticeable threshold... It's just too small.
Funny guy polymer. Offended when I point out something unrelated and completely separate it, telling everyone that it has nothing to do with the argument.
Have fun convincing everyone that the tactility is significant. I'm sure that they'll agree with you.
Really it's pretty sad watching you take some self-righteous opinion on and making it seem even more wrong than it is. Continue arguing with yourself. //thread
I'm not offended at all...I just think it is a pathetic attempt to deflect your mistake.
The bump requires more force. It isn't an argument, it is a fact. You argued they're both 45g so therefore it doesn't require more force..but that doesn't make any sense since the 45g is after bump and after the drop off.
Continue to make your bad argument..hide the fact that you made a mistake....why not just man up and say you didn't realize they were different?
BOOM. HEADSHOT.
Polymer... you can chill dude... I think the point is that when typing fast... the bump on browns is below the just-noticeable threshold... It's just too small.
I agree..the bump is really small..not disagreeing with that at all...as I type this with MX browns...But I think the point is, it does require slightly more force..it is noticeable..and unlike what's his face, I'm actually comparing the two right now...it isn't a huge difference but it is slight...
But he goes out of his way to actually convince people he's right when factually he's absolutely wrong...he's even mixing up his facts quoting they're both 45g actuation so therefore they require the same force....which is absolutely false because while both have 45g actuation..they both don't require the same amount of force...And you know what? All someone would need to say is.....oh..yeah, I made a mistake. That ends it right there. But that won't happen. He's faced with actual facts and it still won't happen...Instead he's now making up some silly excuses...it is actually pretty pathetic.
I typed on it and I feel as if I could type about as fast as blues. It's there, miniscule perhaps, but it's there.
I doubt that it would give me 15 wpm, perhaps 10 wpm is a better estimate. Not a fan of Reds, I can't get higher than a bit over 130 on those.
I typed on it and I feel as if I could type about as fast as blues. It's there, miniscule perhaps, but it's there.
I doubt that it would give me 15 wpm, perhaps 10 wpm is a better estimate. Not a fan of Reds, I can't get higher than a bit over 130 on those.
i believe there was a speed discussion a while back.. and some conclusions were that it comes down to how fast you can "mentally" parse what you are reading.. The influence from the keyboard itself is minimal.
This is relative to ULTIMATE achievable transcription speed... it comes down to memorizing "finger rolls" n-graphs... like t-ion, tre-e, poin-t.. upp-er , those are trigraph, trigraph, quadrigrph, and digraphs
When you memorize the finger rolls of common n-graphs, they can be executed with far greater speed during mental parsing.
VS
I don't really remember how to spell gundanium until I sound it out... which is significantly slower.
You're actually a very decent guy when you're not rambling about the Ergodox every two minutes.
Let me just throw in my 2 cents: I use browns and that little tactile bump makes a HUGE difference to the feel for me and how I type & game. For me, it's a good thing, for others, it depends how they use their keyboard.
Semi-related info: The shock from bottoming out all the time if you really mash the keys can be detrimental to your fingers' long term health, just in case you didn't know.
I typed on it and I feel as if I could type about as fast as blues. It's there, miniscule perhaps, but it's there.
I doubt that it would give me 15 wpm, perhaps 10 wpm is a better estimate. Not a fan of Reds, I can't get higher than a bit over 130 on those.
i believe there was a speed discussion a while back.. and some conclusions were that it comes down to how fast you can "mentally" parse what you are reading.. The influence from the keyboard itself is minimal.
This is relative to ULTIMATE achievable transcription speed... it comes down to memorizing "finger rolls" n-graphs... like t-ion, tre-e, poin-t.. upp-er , those are trigraph, trigraph, quadrigrph, and digraphs
When you memorize the finger rolls of common n-graphs, they can be executed with far greater speed during mental parsing.
VS
I don't really remember how to spell gundanium until I sound it out... which is significantly slower.
Here are my two cents on the topic. I have used both switches and this is my experience.
If you ALWAYS bottom out the keys, then you probably will not notice much of a difference between the two.
When I type quickly I don't always bottom out the keys. Because of this, I find on reds that sometimes I have to actually check to see if a letter was typed when I do not bottom out. That is the main reason why I prefer browns. When I type, my fingers know if the key pressed. There is not much of a bump when you are looking for it, but when you are just typing and not paying attention, it is enough of a bump that your fingers know you hit it.
I can type much faster on browns than reds simply because I know whether or not the key was pressed without having the check.
Hope that is helpful for someone...
Here are my two cents on the topic. I have used both switches and this is my experience.
If you ALWAYS bottom out the keys, then you probably will not notice much of a difference between the two.
When I type quickly I don't always bottom out the keys. Because of this, I find on reds that sometimes I have to actually check to see if a letter was typed when I do not bottom out. That is the main reason why I prefer browns. When I type, my fingers know if the key pressed. There is not much of a bump when you are looking for it, but when you are just typing and not paying attention, it is enough of a bump that your fingers know you hit it.
I can type much faster on browns than reds simply because I know whether or not the key was pressed without having the check.
Hope that is helpful for someone...
I don't believe hit-confirming would make typing faster.. if anything it would slow it down.
because fast typing relys on rolling the n-graph... it doesn't matter if you're @ 100% accuracy...
Brown is good for typing and RTS where you press multiple keys but in different orders each time, and you need to know for sure you have pressed the right keys. (Get gold, build some buildings, then build some archers and fighters, then gather to attack, while continuing to mine golds and stones)
All the talk in this thread is so cheap. It's just a matter of what you prefer. WAY overanalyzed.
All the talk in this thread is so cheap. It's just a matter of what you prefer. WAY overanalyzed.
Here are my two cents on the topic. I have used both switches and this is my experience.
If you ALWAYS bottom out the keys, then you probably will not notice much of a difference between the two.
When I type quickly I don't always bottom out the keys. Because of this, I find on reds that sometimes I have to actually check to see if a letter was typed when I do not bottom out. That is the main reason why I prefer browns. When I type, my fingers know if the key pressed. There is not much of a bump when you are looking for it, but when you are just typing and not paying attention, it is enough of a bump that your fingers know you hit it.
I can type much faster on browns than reds simply because I know whether or not the key was pressed without having the check.
Hope that is helpful for someone...
I don't believe hit-confirming would make typing faster.. if anything it would slow it down.
because fast typing relys on rolling the n-graph... it doesn't matter if you're @ 100% accuracy...
Here are my two cents on the topic. I have used both switches and this is my experience.
If you ALWAYS bottom out the keys, then you probably will not notice much of a difference between the two.
When I type quickly I don't always bottom out the keys. Because of this, I find on reds that sometimes I have to actually check to see if a letter was typed when I do not bottom out. That is the main reason why I prefer browns. When I type, my fingers know if the key pressed. There is not much of a bump when you are looking for it, but when you are just typing and not paying attention, it is enough of a bump that your fingers know you hit it.
I can type much faster on browns than reds simply because I know whether or not the key was pressed without having the check.
Hope that is helpful for someone...
I don't believe hit-confirming would make typing faster.. if anything it would slow it down.
because fast typing relys on rolling the n-graph... it doesn't matter if you're @ 100% accuracy...
Fast typing relies also on your ability to recognize when you've hit a key and press the next one. At very high speeds, the speed in which you type your word is extremely important, and confirming definitely does help. The whole point about a mechanical is not bottoming out.
But I mean, it's no different if you're on an MX Red or Blue if you never bottom out. It's just much easier to not do it on the Blues.
Fast typing relies also on your ability to recognize when you've hit a key and press the next one. At very high speeds, the speed in which you type your word is extremely important, and confirming definitely does help. The whole point about a mechanical is not bottoming out.
But I mean, it's no different if you're on an MX Red or Blue if you never bottom out. It's just much easier to not do it on the Blues.
but superstar sean wrona bottoms out.
Fast typing relies also on your ability to recognize when you've hit a key and press the next one. At very high speeds, the speed in which you type your word is extremely important, and confirming definitely does help. The whole point about a mechanical is not bottoming out.
But I mean, it's no different if you're on an MX Red or Blue if you never bottom out. It's just much easier to not do it on the Blues.
but superstar sean wrona bottoms out.
He only seems to do it partially to me. But Sean Wrona's mind and ability is so advanced beyond most peoples', he can do whatever he wants.
Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:
I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??
if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.
all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.
Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.
But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw. :thumb:
Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:
I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??
if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.
all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.
Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.
But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw. :thumb:
Did you even read the op? He said he needs rapid keypresses. Your post was not only off point, it was unconstructive.
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
Untrue. A good typist can get used to any format given that it has most of the keys in the same places. I could still type the same speed on QWERTZ as I could on QWERTY a couple of years ago. and now whichever keyboard layout I use, I can easily manage 135+ on RD. On Reds, though, I couldn't surpass 130 more than once in ten tries.
Switch >>> Layout
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
Untrue. A good typist can get used to any format given that it has most of the keys in the same places. I could still type the same speed on QWERTZ as I could on QWERTY a couple of years ago. and now whichever keyboard layout I use, I can easily manage 135+ on RD. On Reds, though, I couldn't surpass 130 more than once in ten tries.
Switch >>> Layout
well, you have 2 thoughts there.
Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any layout.
Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any switch. (you personally can do within 5% between 2 switches)
My point is that, no matter HOW GOOD, the user is... Will he be "comfortable" while using his keyboard.
Given broad shoulders on most males.. it's impossible to be comfortable on a standard keyboard..
____you have to bring your hands so close together and compress your chest while typing..
____Alternatively, you can keep your chest open, but you'd have to lift your shoulder slightly and elbow upwards to get your hand into keyboarding position on staggered qwerty..
I don't disagree with the points you made...
My point is separate, ergonomics is more important for prolonged keyboard usage.
I used to play SC2 at high master level and I know for a fact most pros use browns, blacks or reds. Blues are not even close to "predominant". Only "pro" I know who uses blues is Destiny and that guy is a joke. Fact is, heavily tactile switches are just terrible for any kind of gaming unless you're playing Mavis teaches typing or something.Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:
I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??
if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.
all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.
Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.
And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.
The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.
But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw. :thumb:
Did you even read the op? He said he needs rapid keypresses. Your post was not only off point, it was unconstructive.
starcraft players have much higher apm than all other games..
they predominantly use blues... so if that's not "Rapid" enough for you...Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/026.gif)
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.
The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.
Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."
Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.
The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.
Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."
Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.
I don't really like reds personally. They are too easy to actuate and it's actually quite annoying. I like blues the best, personally, but browns are acceptable as well.
I don't really like reds personally. They are too easy to actuate and it's actually quite annoying. I like blues the best, personally, but browns are acceptable as well.
Reds ain't that bad, have you ever tested 30g topre? You mess up more typing than with a smart phone :P
I dunno..but you shove a lot of technical data to someone who (I may be of course wrong) won't be able to make decision based on it. When I put myself in the same position..This would really make more harm than good..Force graphs? 55g or 45g? Topre 30g? Seriously? ;D And saying that you should pick what you prefer is kinda strange when you are picking between two things you don't know about and you only read specs of them or watched those cool gifs showing how they work or trying to do some reading here :)And that's why I am trying to give you some of my personal experience on switches when applied especially to playing SC2. I think reds or browns are perfect for it since these are more "spammy."
But that's just 2c from my noobish perspective ;)
Peace!
And that's why I am trying to give you some of my personal experience on switches when applied especially to playing SC2. I think reds or browns are perfect for it since these are more "spammy."
You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.
These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.Show Image(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xfhnPILB6n0/UbhK5cybPfI/AAAAAAABheI/O6xNbAqAPLg/s640/3.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/oTCS0nb.jpg)Show Image(http://files.tested.com/photos/2012/07/16/38913-sdcc2012_429.jpg)
You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.
These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.Show Image(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xfhnPILB6n0/UbhK5cybPfI/AAAAAAABheI/O6xNbAqAPLg/s640/3.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/oTCS0nb.jpg)Show Image(http://files.tested.com/photos/2012/07/16/38913-sdcc2012_429.jpg)
HHKB Pro 3 Confirmed.
You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.
These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.Show Image(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xfhnPILB6n0/UbhK5cybPfI/AAAAAAABheI/O6xNbAqAPLg/s640/3.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/oTCS0nb.jpg)Show Image(http://files.tested.com/photos/2012/07/16/38913-sdcc2012_429.jpg)
HHKB Pro 3 Confirmed.
Half-Life 3 confirmed!!
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.
The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.
Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."
Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.
Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...
The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.
The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.
Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."
Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.
http://www.originativeco.com/pages/mechboard-101
Reds listed at 40g probably is 40-45g. Brown = 55g peak.