Cherry MX Red vs Cherry MX Brown

[goobus]

Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:

I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??

if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.

all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.

Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.


The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.

But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw.

Did you even read the op? He said he needs rapid keypresses. Your post was not only off point, it was unconstructive.

[tp4tissue]

Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:

I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??

if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.

all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.

Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.


The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.

But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw.

Did you even read the op? He said he needs rapid keypresses. Your post was not only off point, it was unconstructive.

starcraft players have much higher apm than all other games.. 

they predominantly use blues...  so if that's not "Rapid" enough for you...

[Linkbane]

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.

Untrue. A good typist can get used to any format given that it has most of the keys in the same places. I could still type the same speed on QWERTZ as I could on QWERTY a couple of years ago. and now whichever keyboard layout I use, I can easily manage 135+ on RD. On Reds, though, I couldn't surpass 130 more than once in ten tries.

Switch >>> Layout

[tp4tissue]

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.

Untrue. A good typist can get used to any format given that it has most of the keys in the same places. I could still type the same speed on QWERTZ as I could on QWERTY a couple of years ago. and now whichever keyboard layout I use, I can easily manage 135+ on RD. On Reds, though, I couldn't surpass 130 more than once in ten tries.

Switch >>> Layout

well, you have 2 thoughts there.

Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any layout.

Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any switch.  (you personally can do within 5% between 2 switches)


My point is that, no matter HOW GOOD, the user is... Will he be "comfortable" while using his keyboard.

Given broad shoulders on most males.. it's impossible to be comfortable on a standard keyboard..

____you have to bring your hands so close together and compress your chest while typing..
____Alternatively, you can keep your chest open, but you'd have to lift your shoulder slightly and elbow upwards to get your hand into keyboarding position on staggered qwerty..

I don't disagree with the points you made...

My point is separate,  ergonomics is more important for prolonged keyboard usage.

[Linkbane]

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.

Untrue. A good typist can get used to any format given that it has most of the keys in the same places. I could still type the same speed on QWERTZ as I could on QWERTY a couple of years ago. and now whichever keyboard layout I use, I can easily manage 135+ on RD. On Reds, though, I couldn't surpass 130 more than once in ten tries.

Switch >>> Layout

well, you have 2 thoughts there.

Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any layout.

Good user can "be fast/ proficient" on any switch.  (you personally can do within 5% between 2 switches)


My point is that, no matter HOW GOOD, the user is... Will he be "comfortable" while using his keyboard.

Given broad shoulders on most males.. it's impossible to be comfortable on a standard keyboard..

____you have to bring your hands so close together and compress your chest while typing..
____Alternatively, you can keep your chest open, but you'd have to lift your shoulder slightly and elbow upwards to get your hand into keyboarding position on staggered qwerty..

I don't disagree with the points you made...

My point is separate,  ergonomics is more important for prolonged keyboard usage.

144 vs 130 (and the second one averages in the mid-120's after a few minutes, a much sharper drop off), it's still probably around 10%.
And I mean, true, it's not a big deal. It only matters to people who require almost impractical speed.

I see what you mean with ergonomics; I actually saw a very cool device at a store which was like a keyboard stand but completely controllable in its angle as well as the xyz axis, it ran about $150 if I remember correctly.
Anyways, we can base this off of a good position, not what's common. True, most typists have a horrible position, but I found that angling my shoulders out and then in from my elbows results in a much more comfortable position. Certainly not as good as the egdx or similar, but a happy medium.

[goobus]

Thanks to geekhack and many other forums I've narrowed down which type of keyboard I want. I play a game that needs a lot of rapid key presses and slides from one key to another. I know red and brown have about the same actuation force, but i tried the logitech g710+ in a store and i couldn't feel the tactile bump. All i could feel was mushiness from the O-rings. For the game i play i have to do movements like this:

I've been looking at the CM storm quickfire pro because it only has backlighting where i need it and it offers nkro over USB. So which one should i get, red or brown??

if you want SERIOUS tactile, buckling is good.

all tactile mx are subtle when you're typing fast.

Sadly the ultimate layout of the Ergodox is only available in CHERRY mx.

And Layout trumps the switch type when it comes to actually USING a keyboard.


The people who love to TALK about keyboards will tell you differently.

But all avid USERS agree. EDx ftw.

Did you even read the op? He said he needs rapid keypresses. Your post was not only off point, it was unconstructive.

starcraft players have much higher apm than all other games.. 

they predominantly use blues...  so if that's not "Rapid" enough for you...

Show Image

I used to play SC2 at high master level and I know for a fact most pros use browns, blacks or reds. Blues are not even close to "predominant".  Only "pro" I know who uses blues is Destiny and that guy is a joke.  Fact is, heavily tactile switches are just terrible for any kind of gaming unless you're playing Mavis teaches typing or something.

[Linkbane]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

[giltyler]

The Logitech comes factory with a dampening ring of some sort and I just wanted to point that out since someone above stated that was aftermarket only
I am not trying to step on any toes here.
From Logitech Website




Whisper-quiet keys

Focus on game

Quiet, non-clicking key switches and a built-in dampening ring underneath each keycap significantly reduce the distracting noise coming from your keypresses— without sacrificing responsiveness

[Tony]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

[Linkbane]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.

Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."

Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.

[Polymer]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.

Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."

Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.

I wonder if you actually understand the force graphs....

Actuation force is meaningless so stop quoting that.. it isn't a 5g difference.  Unless you're talking Browns vs. Blues..which I don't think you are but if you are, congrats, you learned something. 

Blues require 60gs of force to overcome the tactile point so while the actual actuation point is 50g, that is after the drop off.  So to actually actuate the switch, what is the minimum required force?  60g. 

Reds don't actually have bump so they require 45g to hit actuation. 

15g, is that significant or not?  Browns are about 55g.  10g, is that significant or not?

If anything I'd argue browns and blues are actually pretty close together feel wise...with browns only being about 5g difference in force needed to overcome the bump (55g vs. 60g) and actually drop off faster than blues which may or may not be a good thing...

[goobus]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.

Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."

Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.

Have you even used blue switches? I'm starting to wonder you actually have no idea what you're talking about.

Here I'll solve it for you - I've used browns blues and reds for Starcraft, and there is a mile's difference between blues and reds/browns. 1) blues are stiffer at the tactile bump point than browns or reds; 2) double tapping quickly on blues is close to impossible; 3) there is a difference between the actuation point and the tactile bump on blues which makes it terrible if you want to be precise about how many key presses you make (i.e. For building units).

I used to play SC at 250+ APM, and I've used a blackwidow and a Filco with brown switches. Playing with blues was the most terrible experience. It felt scratchy, sluggish, and I couldn't double tap to center my camera when I needed (like when someone is attacking my units I need to double tap the control group ASAP, but I couldn't even do that as quickly as I could on my browns).

Just because YOU can't feel a difference doesn't mean there is no difference - there's a world of difference, and your conjecturing won't change that fact.

[Tony]

Polymer and goobus said it all. When you type or play games, your fingers are sensitive enough to feel clearly 5g difference in switch forces, especially you have to type fast as well as mouse positioning at the same time.

Linkbane, look at the force graph, since the switches are not only differentiated by spring force, but also about the place of actuation point as well as the delay time when passing it. Blue delays more than brown, that's why repeating keys in a blue is harder.

[proxy2gate]

I don't really like reds personally. They are too easy to actuate and it's actually quite annoying. I like blues the best, personally, but browns are acceptable as well.

[mauri]

I don't really like reds personally. They are too easy to actuate and it's actually quite annoying. I like blues the best, personally, but browns are acceptable as well.

Reds ain't that bad, have you ever tested 30g topre? You mess up more typing than with a smart phone

[proxy2gate]

I don't really like reds personally. They are too easy to actuate and it's actually quite annoying. I like blues the best, personally, but browns are acceptable as well.

Reds ain't that bad, have you ever tested 30g topre? You mess up more typing than with a smart phone

I just like the bump for whatever reason. Maybe it's because I've used ghetto keyboards for ages. Just really like the feel for blues, a lot!

[bMind]

I dunno..but you shove a lot of technical data to someone who (I may be of course wrong) won't be able to make decision based on it. When I put myself in the same position..This would really make more harm than good..Force graphs? 55g or 45g? Topre 30g? Seriously? And saying that you should pick what you prefer is kinda strange when you are picking between two things you don't know about and you only read specs of them or watched those cool gifs showing how they work or trying to do some reading here

But that's just 2c from my noobish perspective

Peace!

[goobus]

I dunno..but you shove a lot of technical data to someone who (I may be of course wrong) won't be able to make decision based on it. When I put myself in the same position..This would really make more harm than good..Force graphs? 55g or 45g? Topre 30g? Seriously? And saying that you should pick what you prefer is kinda strange when you are picking between two things you don't know about and you only read specs of them or watched those cool gifs showing how they work or trying to do some reading here

But that's just 2c from my noobish perspective

Peace!

And that's why I am trying to give you some of my personal experience on switches when applied especially to playing SC2. I think reds or browns are perfect for it since these are more "spammy."

[bMind]

And that's why I am trying to give you some of my personal experience on switches when applied especially to playing SC2. I think reds or browns are perfect for it since these are more "spammy."

That's why me as a noob in terms of keyboards and SC, decided to get Browns, maybe later reds

[ike2030]

I think we are missing the point of the thread I made. If you look at the video on the first page, those are the key actions that i will need to do. I'm pretty convinced that the tactile bump will just get in my way based on the game that i play so cherry mx reds seem to be the way to go. If i want to lessen the bottoming out force a lot could I put TWO O-rings under the movement keys?

[Tony]

You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.

These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.

[epzy]

@OP why would you only need LEDs for "WASD"? Do you look at them while you're playing video games or what? Isn't your hands on the "WASD" cluster like 24/7...

[rowdy]

^ With a girl like that on your booth - nerds would flock to see what was there!

[stancato9]

You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.

These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

HHKB Pro 3 Confirmed.

[rowdy]

You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.

These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

HHKB Pro 3 Confirmed.

Half-Life 3 confirmed!!

[terran5992]

You can use o-rings, but that dampen the typing feel quite severely. I prefer to type lighter, as if typing on a cloud. That brings the booby feel that reds are so famous for.

These below pictures may not describe exactly the typing feel, but quite close.

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

HHKB Pro 3 Confirmed.

Half-Life 3 confirmed!!

Portal 3 Coming soon

[ike2030]

@epzy i dont need backlighting at all actually.  I just need a keyboard thats cherry mx red and has the best setup for the game i play.

[epzy]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.

Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."

Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.

http://www.originativeco.com/pages/mechboard-101

Reds listed at 40g probably is 40-45g. Brown = 55g peak.

[Linkbane]

Goobus, I don't know where you heard Blues were heavy switches...

The weight difference between switches will be obvious for a pro-player with ~300 APM.

The springs are the exact same, so no it will not be. The click might be obvious, it's a 5g increase.

Let me rephrase that in a way more similar to your own:
"The weight difference between switches will be completely indistinguishable for a pro-typist with ~730 CPM. If you type faster, maybe it'll become noticeable."

Seriously, no. There is 0 difference besides the click, the amount of force required is about the same.

http://www.originativeco.com/pages/mechboard-101

Reds listed at 40g probably is 40-45g. Brown = 55g peak.

Peak doesn't have all that much to do with it. I have both Reds and Blues, and the difficulty is supposed to be in pressing the switch, not overcoming the click. I had a Green keyboard for a while and the click didn't really matter because of the hysteresis (the drop off in force and then rise making it natural), but the spring force was much greater. Blues have a peak force, according to Cherry, of about 56g, I believe, and Browns are definitely not 55g peak force.. Either way, they're all pretty easy on the hands. This is coming from someone with a CPM of often over 800.

[dimamantra]

I play FPS games a lot.

Anyone wanna play BF4?

I have a QFR with blacks and I must say one thing about them. After an extended stint of gaming, as I like to do, my wrists can become sore from the tension on the blacks. Reds are suppose to be soft blacks. Just keep that in mind.