Some people don't like Topre. It's not weird.
My wife costs me lots and lots of money I love her to.
My wife costs me lots and lots of money I love her to.
OMG lol
My wife costs me lots and lots of money I love her to.
OMG lol
what's up jocelyn! hope you are doing well!!
My wife costs me lots and lots of money I love her to.
OMG lol
what's up jocelyn! hope you are doing well!!
I stopped going to the beach, because Thorpe feels like my macbook keyboard :(
Some people don't like Topre. It's not weird.
It's not that I don't like it. It's just that I find nothing special about it. I mean it's fine, but by no means impressive to me.
I hear a lot of people say that topre switches feel like "an indescribable rubber dome". I can describe it: it feels like a rubber dome.
But really. It feels like my macbook keyboard, but with a larger key throw.
Is it the cost that makes people enjoy it so much? Is there no other option but to love it, once you've spent that kind of money on it?
Typing this from a HHKB Pro 2.
Maybe that's why I love my shiba inu...OMG tj post a picture of your dog those things are soo cute!
So just keep switching between your keyboards
So just keep switching between your keyboards
Maybe this is my problem, I only have the Happy Hacking (I have an old apls that only plugs into an IBM personal computer 2 circa 1981). Maybe I needed to buy some ****tier keyboards first? I think there's also the fact that a keyboard feeling "good" is completely subjective to the user. To say that Topre is just better is a hard thing to define. I honestly feel like I would enjoy buckling spring or MX clears a little more, because I like the mechanical nature of it.
But then again there's the difference between activating a switch, and typing things for real. I have an alps keyboard, and just actuating the switches brings a smile to my face, but typing paragraphs makes me cringe.
So really, the ultimate keyboard is one that disappears?
Have you considered getting some mx switches to test (I know its not the same as a full keyboard) or try and find some in a store you can demo?
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/wasd-sampler-kit.htmlHave you considered getting some mx switches to test (I know its not the same as a full keyboard) or try and find some in a store you can demo?
I would love to, but I'm pretty sure no stores in my area have these. And like I said, on switch by switch basis, I'm sure I'd make a terrible decision.
Anyone on GH live in Boulder and would let me type on their keyboards? ;)
Have you considered getting some mx switches to test (I know its not the same as a full keyboard) or try and find some in a store you can demo?
I would love to, but I'm pretty sure no stores in my area have these. And like I said, on switch by switch basis, I'm sure I'd make a terrible decision.
Anyone on GH live in Boulder and would let me type on their keyboards? ;)
you cant account for lack of taste
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/wasd-sampler-kit.html
http://www.amazon.com/Max-Keyboard-Keycap-Cherry-Sampler/dp/B00E71W4O8
you cant account for lack of taste
I hear a lot of people say that topre switches feel like "an indescribable rubber dome". I can describe it: it feels like a rubber dome.If you wanted people to believe a Topre felt like a rubber-dome you probably shouldn't have then said they are both like a scissor-switch laptop as now nobody thinks your opinion is worth much at all...
But really. It feels like my macbook keyboard, but with a larger key throw.
I don't personally own a Topre, but I have used the HHKB Pro 2 for a good few minutes and I feel exactly the same way you do. I feel nothing special about this switch. Perhaps it was because I was expecting something totally different. Why are they so expensive? I feel like I'm overthinking such a simple keyboard.
Yeah, I think sometime in the future I'll go ahead and try a Topre board and see how I like it. I'm still trying to formulate my own opinion about Brown's.I don't personally own a Topre, but I have used the HHKB Pro 2 for a good few minutes and I feel exactly the same way you do. I feel nothing special about this switch. Perhaps it was because I was expecting something totally different. Why are they so expensive? I feel like I'm overthinking such a simple keyboard.
Perhaps you just did not use it for long enough.
A few minutes is not enough to appreciate any switch.
It is generally said to use Topre keyboard for a week or two, then switch back to something else and see what you think.
Hmm, well I guess if you think that spending $265 is going to buy you the ultimate typing experience in the universe, then you are going to be slightly disappointed. However, with that said, Topre feels nothing like a macbook pro, nor does it feel like a rubber dome keyboard. Is Topre the ultimate thing in the universe? No. All you can really say is that Topre is better than the competition, since it's better than any Cherry MX switch, and light years ahead of any rubber dome, or scissor switch. The lubed, spring-modded, stickered ergo-panda-clear MX switches are in reality an attempt to imitate the feeling of Topre switches with MX. Topre remains the gold standard, because it's better than the rest, not because it's intrinsically the greatest thing of all time. On the other hand, as long as we are talking about the feeling we get from our fingers pressing keys on a keyboard, I don't know how much better things can get than Topre. Maybe there is something better out there waiting to be invented, but until then, Topre is the best. But if you are unsatisfied, send the HHKB Pro 2 back for a refund. Go back to the macbook pro. Enjoy your life.
Hmm, well I guess if you think that spending $265 is going to buy you the ultimate typing experience in the universe, then you are going to be slightly disappointed. However, with that said, Topre feels nothing like a macbook pro, nor does it feel like a rubber dome keyboard. Is Topre the ultimate thing in the universe? No. All you can really say is that Topre is better than the competition, since it's better than any Cherry MX switch, and light years ahead of any rubber dome, or scissor switch. The lubed, spring-modded, stickered ergo-panda-clear MX switches are in reality an attempt to imitate the feeling of Topre switches with MX. Topre remains the gold standard, because it's better than the rest, not because it's intrinsically the greatest thing of all time. On the other hand, as long as we are talking about the feeling we get from our fingers pressing keys on a keyboard, I don't know how much better things can get than Topre. Maybe there is something better out there waiting to be invented, but until then, Topre is the best. But if you are unsatisfied, send the HHKB Pro 2 back for a refund. Go back to the macbook pro. Enjoy your life.
Oh, so false and passive aggressive. Continue releasing your anger at the fact that someone is not in love with an expensive rubber dome. You delude yourself to laughable points. Most people don't want Topre because it's both expensive and doesn't feel much different from a rubber dome, probably why it's rare, not because it's so good but because it's really not good. You don't need to provide with the fact that you think Topre is the best thing since doubleshots, because it's painfully obvious that you are a rabid fanboy.
By the way, probably the most common thing that I've heard to describe Topre is 'expensive rubber dome', by lovers and haters alike. You're *telling* the poster what the Topre is and is not when he has clearly made his own judgments and doesn't like it. It's just like daerid says, all taste. SpiceBar and photekq make the same point. Don't get angry at him because he doesn't like what you do. There are lots of people like that in this world, and we call them intolerant. Be grateful that online they're just called fanboys.
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
eth0s seems to be the topre equivalent of tp4. He just fleshes out his bashing.Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
inb4 topre ergodox
4 realz tho im sick of all this ****, topre is hella nice, some people like mx, but i dont give a ****
(http://i.imgur.com/ddoV4Ny.gif)4 realz tho im sick of all this ****, topre is hella nice, some people like mx, but i dont give a ****
Not slobbering over the meatstick of Topre means that I'm an MX fanboy, gg then.
Have you tried cherry MY switches? I think you'll like those; they feel nothing like a macbook keyboard.Show Image(http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Tom-Hanks-Email-GIF.gif)
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
Yes. :rolleyes:
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
Yes. :rolleyes:
He's not banned.
Typical Thorpe thread.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/FL8IvFu.jpg)
Typical Thorpe thread.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/FL8IvFu.jpg)
Is it the cost that makes people enjoy it so much? Is there no other option but to love it, once you've spent that kind of money on it?
Dont mac books use Scissor switches?
This whole post is thoroughly uneducated.
now nobody thinks your opinion is worth much at all...
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
Yes. :rolleyes:
Other than that, I ordered one of those MX samplers to try out some different switches... will wait to sell until I find a keyboard I like more.
Know topre, know peace. No topre, no peace.
This thread makes me nervous, my FC660C should hurry up and arrive.
This thread makes me nervous, my FC660C should hurry up and arrive.
Know topre, know peace. No topre, no peace.
Topre feels so close to a standard rubber dome board I still feel it in no way warrants all the fanboyism and price jack. I'm not saying it feels the same, definitely better, but it's like the difference between 800 thread count sheets and 1200 thread count sheets.
Topre feels so close to a standard rubber dome board I still feel it in no way warrants all the fanboyism and price jack. I'm not saying it feels the same, definitely better, but it's like the difference between 800 thread count sheets and 1200 thread count sheets.
I think this is my sentiment after I purchased my FC660C. Although I feel that the difference between standard rubber domes and Topre isn't very large, the manufacturing quality of the boards that Topre switches are on definitely makes up for the price a decent amount. The Type Heaven to me seems like a much better solution for those that think Topre boards are overpriced or just out of their budget, but enjoy the switch. Some Thorpe enthusiasts say that the Type Heaven is cheap and low quality, but I wonder if that's simply compared to an exceptional quality $2XX RealForce?
But is it better than a Poker, Filco, Das, Leopold, etc? Is Topre's quality of keyboard significant enough that it would make an effect given that keyboards are very rarely damaged at all, or is it almost cosmetic in function?...cut......cut...
Is it the cost that makes people enjoy it so much? Is there no other option but to love it, once you've spent that kind of money on it?
Is it the cost that makes people enjoy it so much? Is there no other option but to love it, once you've spent that kind of money on it?
That has already been debunked when the 660c came out...with a more affordable price point, new people got to try it..it wasn't incredibly more expensive than a normal Cherry MX board....and a bunch of new Topre fans were born...
Also, as many have pointed out, by the time you mod your Cherry board with high end PBT keycaps, the actual cost difference is quite minimal.
It is ok to not like Topre. I think a lot of people that don't like it struggle for reasons why others might...it must be really inconceivable. Some people even think they can evaluate a keyboard after a few minutes or a few hours..it just isn't the same as using it for awhile. Same with your Lexus/Toyota comparison...Do they share a lot of the same parts? Sure..are there certain things familiar to an owner of both? Sure...but does a Lexus feel a lot more solid than a normal Toyota? It most certainly does....
Do they feel like rubber domes to people? Sure...because it has a rubber dome...but the stability, smoothness, solidness, feel, sound, etc..are different...They share a rubber dome but all the other parts are what differentiates the two and makes them feel different. If you can't tell the difference that doesn't mean a lot of other people can't. To be honest, I can't see how anyone that has used it for awhile can not feel the difference between the two. Does that justify the price? To some it does..to some it doesn't....Just because you can not appreciate the difference or the quality doesn't mean it isn't there.
I like Cherry MX as well...I think they're far better for gaming and as far as being able to customize them..they're light years ahead of Topre....If I had to pick only one type of keyboard for everything, I'd pick Cherry..because I don't like Topre for gaming....but since I don't have to pick...I use Topre boards for work, etc..and Cherry for gaming/all around stuff...
Is it the cost that makes people enjoy it so much? Is there no other option but to love it, once you've spent that kind of money on it?
That has already been debunked when the 660c came out...with a more affordable price point, new people got to try it..it wasn't incredibly more expensive than a normal Cherry MX board....and a bunch of new Topre fans were born...
Also, as many have pointed out, by the time you mod your Cherry board with high end PBT keycaps, the actual cost difference is quite minimal.
It is ok to not like Topre. I think a lot of people that don't like it struggle for reasons why others might...it must be really inconceivable. Some people even think they can evaluate a keyboard after a few minutes or a few hours..it just isn't the same as using it for awhile. Same with your Lexus/Toyota comparison...Do they share a lot of the same parts? Sure..are there certain things familiar to an owner of both? Sure...but does a Lexus feel a lot more solid than a normal Toyota? It most certainly does....
Do they feel like rubber domes to people? Sure...because it has a rubber dome...but the stability, smoothness, solidness, feel, sound, etc..are different...They share a rubber dome but all the other parts are what differentiates the two and makes them feel different. If you can't tell the difference that doesn't mean a lot of other people can't. To be honest, I can't see how anyone that has used it for awhile can not feel the difference between the two. Does that justify the price? To some it does..to some it doesn't....Just because you can not appreciate the difference or the quality doesn't mean it isn't there.
I like Cherry MX as well...I think they're far better for gaming and as far as being able to customize them..they're light years ahead of Topre....If I had to pick only one type of keyboard for everything, I'd pick Cherry..because I don't like Topre for gaming....but since I don't have to pick...I use Topre boards for work, etc..and Cherry for gaming/all around stuff...
All of these sensible, compromising responses have given me faith in the community. Well met, empathy is a tough thing to come by on the internet.
So far I've only tried MX Blues, Browns and Reds. Haven't come across a Black board yet, but I really want to try a Topre board. I'm still thinking of making the plunge to buy a HHKB 2, just for the hell of it. I know that the switches won't change my life or anything, but the curiosity is too high. And besides, the layout seems perfect for me, so I don't have much to lose. And I'm sure the Topre switches feel fine. It's just a matter of spending enough time with a board I guess.
Is tp4 banned? I don't see anything ergodox related in this thread?!
None of the brands I mentioned make switches. I was talking about build quality.But is it better than a Poker, Filco, Das, Leopold, etc? Is Topre's quality of keyboard significant enough that it would make an effect given that keyboards are very rarely damaged at all, or is it almost cosmetic in function?
I think the comparison of quality between different types of switches is somewhat confusing. Cherry switches are, in my eyes, so different from Thorpe that it seems they shouldn't be categorized as worse or better. On the other hand, Thorpe is seemingly a very high quality rubber dome solution. Additionally, the potential for "damage" I believe, is inherent in the material the different switches are made of.
Maybe that's why I love my shiba inu...
Topre feels so close to a standard rubber dome board I still feel it in no way warrants all the fanboyism and price jack. I'm not saying it feels the same, definitely better, but it's like the difference between 800 thread count sheets and 1200 thread count sheets.
Topre feels so close to a standard rubber dome board I still feel it in no way warrants all the fanboyism and price jack. I'm not saying it feels the same, definitely better, but it's like the difference between 800 thread count sheets and 1200 thread count sheets.
ROFL comparing keyboard terminology to cloth terminology?
Well I guess it could be considered a fair comparison because they both are shrouded with a ****TON of misinformation and ignorant people spewing marketing diatribes while not understand what they are parroting...
The Truth About Thread Count
The high thread count story hit the bedding market in the mid to late 1990s and has since dominated all conversations about sheets. Now over ten years later it's still the focus of questions asked the most by our customers. Honestly, we wish there was a simple answer. The truth is that it's just not that simple, thread count is one metric that should be looked at when considering sheets. At Linenplace, frankly, we don't even think it's the most important one.
Sheeting Quality Indicators
1 Fiber Quality
2 Yarn Size
3 Finishing
4 Thread Count & Construction
Fiber Quality: 100% cotton sheets are by far the most popular and widely used type of sheets. (We do also like silk, cotton/silk, modal and linen; but we’re going to focus on 100% cotton.) There is a huge variety in the quality of 100% cotton sheets. The highest quality cotton is long staple cotton. Staple refers to the length of the cotton fiber; the longer the fiber the better because it creates stronger and finer yarns. Among long staple cottons, the longest are Egyptian extra long staple and Pima (sometimes called Supima).
Yarn Size: The fineness of each yarn is what the term yarn size refers to - the higher the yarn size, the finer the yarn. (think of men’s suiting where they often speak of 100s wool etc) Finer yarns allow for lighter, more supple fabric. The yarn size in quality sheets is typically between 40 and 100. Up to 120s may be used also, but are pretty rare (and the resulting product very expensive). Higher thread counts are created with finer yarns, as more of them can be woven into a square inch. Also, super fine yarns can be twisted together, creating 2 ply yarns that can then be woven into sheeting. When 2 ply yarns are made with a very high yarn size, they make a nice product that is not at all weighty or blanket-like.
Finishing: After the cotton yarns are woven into a fabric, the fabric needs to be finished. This includes singeing and mercerizing. The singeing process is vital; it burns off the tiny fuzz that can later develop into pilling on your sheets. Mercerizing is a treatment conducted under tension, in order to increase strength, luster, and affinity for dye. Bed linens of lesser quality may not be singed or mercerized.
Thread Count & Construction: Thread count is simply the number of threads per square inch of fabric. These consist of vertical threads (warp) and horizontal threads (weft) woven together. Construction refers to how the thread count is achieved (# of warp and weft yarns, # of picks in the weft, use of 2 ply yarns etc.) To achieve higher thread counts, sometimes 2 ply yarns are used and sometimes multiple yarns (picks) are inserted into the weft. The FTC has ruled that plied yarns should each only be counted as one thread for the purposes of thread count. This is not enforced, but in response the market has moved more toward single plies with multiple picks as the preferred method of achieving higher thread counts. In weave quality terms alone, the best fabric would be made with single ply yarns and have a single pick; but the highest thread count you can get with this type of construction is about 400. Above that, 2 ply yarns and/or multi-picks must be used.
weft & warpShow Image(http://www.linenplace.com/images/product_guide/thread_count.png)
The buzz about "single ply" in the last five years or so, was a reaction to customers feeling cheated by the concept of 2 ply. (meaning a 300 thread count construction made with 2 ply yarns and called a 600 thead count) But the "single ply" concept has its own problems, as stated above. Sheets made with "single ply" yarns but with 6 to 8 picks do not necessarily result in the best feeling or highest quality weave - - but they do achieve the higher thread count in a way deemed more correct by international standards and the FTC.
In a quality product, the incremental comfort value of thread counts over 300 is very little. A 300 thread count can feel far superior to a 1000 thread count. Thread count has become a simple metric used by marketing people to capture interest and impress with high numbers. The problem with mass produced high thread count sheets is that to keep the price down, important elements of quality must be sacrificed, meaning in the end the customer gets a product with an impressive thread count but that probably feels no better (or even worse) than something with a lower thread count.
How does this happen?
Weaving with 2 ply yarns that do not have a high enough yarn size so the end product feels heavy and blanket-like.
Inserting multiple yarn threads (picks) into the weft. These are often visible to the naked eye. We’ve heard of as many as 8. This practice increases the thread count but otherwise really has no practical or useful purpose. Depending on the number of picks and yarn size used it can also make the product feel heavy.
There is no simple answer to the thread count, ply and pick game; there are thousands of combinations that will make a beautiful product. We've seen excellent examples of every type of construcion (thanks to quality fiber, yarn size and finishing). Keep in mind that with higher thread counts, price and quality do tend to go hand in hand. An extremely high thread count sheet at a very low price is exactly what it sounds like: too good to be true. This is not to say that you have to spend a small fortune for quality sheets - just don't fall into the thread count trap. Unfortunately, a lot of companies don't make it easy to be well informed. At Linenplace, we do our best to present you with all the information you need to find the product that's right for you. We would like to encourage our customers to focus less on thread count and more on the other quality indicators (fiber quality, yarn size, finishing and construction). We believe you will get a better, more comfortable product that truly represents quality and value.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/J3bNpth.gif)
Meh. People say Topre are just a "glorified" rubber dome, saying, it's just a rubber dome board with better quality, but... the improved quality is so much higher (than that of even Filco boards), that Topre boards are worth it, to me at least.
In other words, Topre boards have better build quality than regular rubber dome boards... but, they are better, in terms of build quality, BY A WHOLE LOT (again this is with regards to build quality; let's not confuse this as a statement referring to other qualities, as someone did over in the Input Devices forum a couple of days ago; this is a statement on board BUILD QUALITY). So much so, that the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
Meh. People say Topre are just a "glorified" rubber dome, saying, it's just a rubber dome board with better quality, but... the improved quality is so much higher (than that of even Filco boards), that Topre boards are worth it, to me at least.
In other words, Topre boards have better build quality than regular rubber dome boards... but, they are better, in terms of build quality, BY A WHOLE LOT (again this is with regards to build quality; let's not confuse this as a statement referring to other qualities, as someone did over in the Input Devices forum a couple of days ago; this is a statement on board BUILD QUALITY). So much so, that the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
How exactly are Topre boards so much higher quality than a Filco, so as to justify even a $100 premium, in the case of the HHKB? Also, which Topre boards are we talking about. I can think of several well-known quality issues with the HHKB and the FC660C.
DT35 > topre
where's that new guy to back me up
Have you considered getting some mx switches to test (I know its not the same as a full keyboard) or try and find some in a store you can demo?
I would love to, but I'm pretty sure no stores in my area have these. And like I said, on switch by switch basis, I'm sure I'd make a terrible decision.
Anyone on GH live in Boulder and would let me type on their keyboards? ;)
Meh. People say Topre are just a "glorified" rubber dome, saying, it's just a rubber dome board with better quality, but... the improved quality is so much higher (than that of even Filco boards), that Topre boards are worth it, to me at least.
In other words, Topre boards have better build quality than regular rubber dome boards... but, they are better, in terms of build quality, BY A WHOLE LOT (again this is with regards to build quality; let's not confuse this as a statement referring to other qualities, as someone did over in the Input Devices forum a couple of days ago; this is a statement on board BUILD QUALITY). So much so, that the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
How exactly are Topre boards so much higher quality than a Filco, so as to justify even a $100 premium, in the case of the HHKB? Also, which Topre boards are we talking about. I can think of several well-known quality issues with the HHKB and the FC660C.
That said, I think Topre has better quality parts/assembly in three areas:
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
2. Topre keycaps are PBT vs. the ABS of Filco keycaps.
3. Topre switches are of much higher quality (more smooth and more solid) than Cherry MX switches.
Also, if you see that a Topre Type Heaven goes for $150, which is about the price of a Filco, and that a full set of Topre PBT keycaps go for $110, then yes, a $260 Topre Realforce seems reasonable, because the Type Heaven is, from what I've read, pretty much a Realforce without the PBT keycaps.
This also tells us, the most likely reason why Topre Realforce boards go for so much, is because of the PBT keycaps. Now, I guess whether the keycaps are worth $110 can be up to debate, but a separate set of Topre PBT's cost $110, so I won't complain if the actual Realforce board goes for $260.
That said, I think Topre has better quality parts/assembly in three areas:
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
2. Topre keycaps are PBT vs. the ABS of Filco keycaps.
3. Topre switches are of much higher quality (more smooth and more solid) than Cherry MX switches.
Also, if you see that a Topre Type Heaven goes for $150, which is about the price of a Filco, and that a full set of Topre PBT keycaps go for $110, then yes, a $260 Topre Realforce seems reasonable, because the Type Heaven is, from what I've read, pretty much a Realforce without the PBT keycaps.
This also tells us, the most likely reason why Topre Realforce boards go for so much, is because of the PBT keycaps. Now, I guess whether the keycaps are worth $110 can be up to debate, but a separate set of Topre PBT's cost $110, so I won't complain if the actual Realforce board goes for $260.
Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan (30 vs 50 million) keystrokes than any MX switch, so you're incorrect there.
For weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're right, Topre does use PBT caps. They aren't double shot, and are certainly no thicker than the Vortex PBT which can be bought for abotu $35, and are double shot in any color. So, Topre falls for the third and most resounding time.
Topre is not superior to any other mechanical keyboard. I think that I'm safe in saying that anyone would rather have a mediocre board with the keyswitch that they prefer using than a strong aluminum, decorated and pimped keyboard with their most hated switch. It's about typing, not about whose keyboard stands up the best in a fight. I doubt that any keyboard warrior here would be more rough with their keyboard than slapping it in anger, and any steel-plated keyboard will take that just fine. Weight holds absolutely no weight.
Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan (30 vs 50 million) keystrokes than any MX switch, so you're incorrect there.
Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan (30 vs 50 million) keystrokes than any MX switch, so you're incorrect there.
For weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're right, Topre does use PBT caps. They aren't double shot, and are certainly no thicker than the Vortex PBT which can be bought for abotu $35, and are double shot in any color. So, Topre falls for the third and most resounding time.
Topre is not superior to any other mechanical keyboard. I think that I'm safe in saying that anyone would rather have a mediocre board with the keyswitch that they prefer using than a strong aluminum, decorated and pimped keyboard with their most hated switch.
It's about typing, not about whose keyboard stands up the best in a fight. I doubt that any keyboard warrior here would be more rough with their keyboard than slapping it in anger, and any steel-plated keyboard will take that just fine. Weight holds absolutely no weight.
Just because the switch uses rubber, doesn't mean it's cheaper to make.
I don't know... did you look at the pictures of the Vortex PBT's? They look kinda cheap, and I've read reports of some of the space bars coming in warpedThey look fine to me, other than the font. I guess we'll find out when more people get them, but I haven't heard anything negative from the few who have a set already. As for warped long keys, that's just what happens with PBT. I'd rather take a little bit of time to straighten out a PBT spacebar than not have one at all, although I understand why some people don't really care about shine that much.
QuoteJust because the switch uses rubber, doesn't mean it's cheaper to make.
He's not saying it's cheaper to make, he's saying that it won't last as long. Topre recently upped their lifespan estimate to 50 million, but personally I think these numbers are all kind of bull****. I do know that rubber stiffens with age though, and there is a thread on here regarding old Topre keyboards feeling stiffer than new ones.
You should also probably start saying "Realforce," because there are a few different brands now, and they all seem to be pretty different. A lot of the qualities you're attributing to the Realforce can't be attributed to the other brands.
QuoteI don't know... did you look at the pictures of the Vortex PBT's? They look kinda cheap, and I've read reports of some of the space bars coming in warpedThey look fine to me, other than the font. I guess we'll find out when more people get them, but I haven't heard anything negative from the few who have a set already. As for warped long keys, that's just what happens with PBT. I'd rather take a little bit of time to straighten out a PBT spacebar than not have one at all, although I understand why some people don't really care about shine that much.
Well, the argument is about whether or not Topre boards are worth their money. So the point he was trying to make about the rubber, was that rubber is a cheaper material than the plastic used in Cherry MX switches (which may or may not be true; I argued on the other hand that other parts of the Topre switch probably make it more expensive to make than Cherry MX switches).
QuoteFor weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're comparing it with a Unicomp, though. Yea, maybe a Unicomp may be heavier, but maybe all the other parts are cheaper to make? From what I've read, its quality is not quite up to par as the original Model M's. So, yea, maybe the Unicomp has the Topre beat when it comes to the weight of the chassis, but all its other parts, such as the switches don't cost as much.
the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
How exactly are Topre boards so much higher quality than a Filco, so as to justify even a $100 premium, in the case of the HHKB? Also, which Topre boards are we talking about. I can think of several well-known quality issues with the HHKB and the FC660C.
Well, do you or have you owned a Topre before? You talk as if you've owned the HHKB and FC600C... or did you merely read about the quality issues?
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
You're right, Topre does use PBT caps. They aren't double shot, and are certainly no thicker than the Vortex PBT which can be bought for abotu $35, and are double shot in any color. So, Topre falls for the third and most resounding time.You're getting Vortex Doubleshot PBT for 35 a set? Where? The GB was for dye subbed...the quality isn't as good either as I'm comparing the two right now..but to be fair, I really think a set of Topre PBTs should be in the 40-50 dollar range(And IMSTO Thick PBT should be cheaper as well).
You're getting Vortex Doubleshot PBT for 35 a set? Where? The GB was for dye subbed...the quality isn't as good either as I'm comparing the two right now..but to be fair, I really think a set of Topre PBTs should be in the 40-50 dollar range(And IMSTO Thick PBT should be cheaper as well).
You're getting Vortex Doubleshot PBT for 35 a set? Where? The GB was for dye subbed...the quality isn't as good either as I'm comparing the two right now..but to be fair, I really think a set of Topre PBTs should be in the 40-50 dollar range(And IMSTO Thick PBT should be cheaper as well).
You obviously haven't been on geekhack for the last month. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48932.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48932.0) for any color, and it was less on MassDrop. $33 for a 104 keyset, which is made better and which higher quality (doubleshot and thickness) than Topre. Topre PBT is worse than Vortex, and if its cost differential is $100+ (difference between Type Heaven/Realforce), that's pretty laughable. Feng's best caps aren't that expensive, and Topre PBT is nothing special. Worse than Vortex, and well over three times its price.
Ok well I didn't see these but that is cool. But if you're saying the Vortex ones are better, I don't know if you've actually seen the quality from them but it is far from great (going by previous sets). Again, thickness is good, it isn't everything...Doubleshot PBT IS cool though..I think that is pretty damn nice that they're doing it. But as far as which is better...Font, overall quality...I'd take the Topre set every time..by my own personal preference.
Again, it isn't just the keycaps (I see how you didn't mention the Filco ABS keycaps in this discussion or any stock keycaps), it also they're not that common which ends up adding a premium.
Which would I prefer? Type Heaven or RF? There isn't even a question in my mind...RF, everyday all day...
Which would I prefer? Topre or Filco? Depends on what it is for...gaming or typing...
Yes, it's quite easy to point out what I didn't mention because I am unable to spend all of my time rebuffing fanboys from celebrating victory by default by another user astounded by their persistent irritation.
Also, any previous tests are rather worthless, because they aren't made the same way, and in fact are completely different. They were made differently, and are of different thicknesses, the newer being thicker than the dye-sub. I'm sure you would pick the Topre keycaps, because one, the MX caps wouldn't fit it, and two, it's just a support of your argument that has no basis in fact.
I don't know anything about Filco caps. I would think that they are nice, because people comment on how nice it is to type on them, but I'm hardly an expert on ABS or any kind of cap, for that matter. All I know is that the Realforce brand and caps are incredibly overpriced.
Obviously one would prefer the Realforce, it has PBT caps and comes in 999 different flavors. But most people who get it just want to try a Topre, and realize that it's not worth blowing $110 on a set of PBT keycaps at all.
It really doesn't matter what you or I prefer, because we're debating a topic, and your opinion is no better than mine. If I stated the opposite, that the Type Heaven was much better than the Realforce, and that the Topre caps are garbage, it would be the same as you singing their praises, but I won't do that, because it's obvious bias.
Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan (30 vs 50 million) keystrokes than any MX switch, so you're incorrect there.
For weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're right, Topre does use PBT caps. They aren't double shot, and are certainly no thicker than the Vortex PBT which can be bought for abotu $35, and are double shot in any color. So, Topre falls for the third and most resounding time.
Topre is not superior to any other mechanical keyboard. I think that I'm safe in saying that anyone would rather have a mediocre board with the keyswitch that they prefer using than a strong aluminum, decorated and pimped keyboard with their most hated switch. It's about typing, not about whose keyboard stands up the best in a fight. I doubt that any keyboard warrior here would be more rough with their keyboard than slapping it in anger, and any steel-plated keyboard will take that just fine. Weight holds absolutely no weight.
Sorry but this is the post of a fanboy. If you want to discuss something like this try not being a jerk.
Sorry but this is the post of a fanboy. If you want to discuss something like this try not being a jerk.
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
Sorry but this is the post of a fanboy. If you want to discuss something like this try not being a jerk.
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
Except you contradict yourself when you say your 'opinions' are unbiased. Being YOUR opinion, it is biased. Completely. You feel your opinion is the most important in every thread I have seen you post in.
You spread your opinions all over the boards, looking for a conflict. It's a good thing I don't see anyone here really taking you seriously, because that would be scary.
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
Well, the argument is about whether or not Topre boards are worth their money. So the point he was trying to make about the rubber, was that rubber is a cheaper material than the plastic used in Cherry MX switches (which may or may not be true; I argued on the other hand that other parts of the Topre switch probably make it more expensive to make than Cherry MX switches).
Incorrect. I made a statement on the actuation mechanism, and I fail to see (as well as others) how you could take that as an insult, unless you find it personally insulting that I say what a Topre board has inside of it. I don't know when you thought that rubber was cheaper than plastic, but it was probably right about the year that plastic was first invented.
Also, about the Vortex caps, you're quite wrong also. They have very thick PBT, as can be evidenced in the picture, which are significantly thicker than that used on the Topre, and saying that they've come in is both a bald-faced lie and implausible, considering that it's stronger and higher quality than those on the Topre. Double-shot, also. By the way, it's quite obviously a lie when you talk about hearing reports of the spacebars coming in warped because very few have come in and no reviews have been posted. I know that you want to convince yourself that Topre is better, but in this aspect, it's not.
They have very thick PBT, as can be evidenced in the picture, which are significantly thicker than that used on the Topre, and saying that they've come in is both a bald-faced lie and implausible.
I have seen from forum posts, this being an example: "But as said Topre switches tend to get heavier over time as the rubber ages. I think there was an experiment done not too long ago... by Ripster in the name of keyboard science." that Topre become quite unpleasantly stiff as they get older. Topre housing is quite nice and its mechanism is more advanced than that of the Cherry, which neither makes it superior nor, as Topre has said before, more durable.
QuoteFor weight, you compare against a single brand. The simple fact that a Topre switch is larger and heavier (x87) would probably account for a significant amount of that, but wonderful. It weighs more, that's not indicative of build quality. A Unicomp fullsize weighs 5.5 pounds, so a TKL would weigh at least 3.5, making it much heavier, and in your comparison method, much better than a Topre. Topre falls again.
You're comparing it with a Unicomp, though. Yea, maybe a Unicomp may be heavier, but maybe all the other parts are cheaper to make? From what I've read, its quality is not quite up to par as the original Model M's. So, yea, maybe the Unicomp has the Topre beat when it comes to the weight of the chassis, but all its other parts, such as the switches don't cost as much.
Oh, and when I use the argument rationally with the same comparison, you then tell me that I'm wrong. You said that they were built more solidly on account of their weight.
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
the increase in build quality is absolutely worth the price of a Topre board, to me.
And this is why I think it's disingenuous, or a half-lie, when people say, Topre are "just rubber dome" boards. Because when they say that, they completely ignore (perhaps on purpose) just how much better built Topre boards are.
Like I said, if someone recognizes the improved build quality of Topre boards, and yet dislike them out of subjective preference, I have absolutely no problem with that. Let's just not lie about what Topre boards are.
How exactly are Topre boards so much higher quality than a Filco, so as to justify even a $100 premium, in the case of the HHKB? Also, which Topre boards are we talking about. I can think of several well-known quality issues with the HHKB and the FC660C.
Well, do you or have you owned a Topre before? You talk as if you've owned the HHKB and FC600C... or did you merely read about the quality issues?
1. Topre boards have a stiffer, and heavier body than Filco boards.
And here is your argument, enshrined so that you might not edit it and that I can provide all of my evidence. However, if you would pay some money for a really strong keyboard and you admit that weight is not what makes a board (even though it is abundant in this one), I suggest this over a Topre: http://www.chassis-plans.com/Rackmount-Keyboard-Displays/MFT-121-Military-Full-Travel-Keyboard.htm (http://www.chassis-plans.com/Rackmount-Keyboard-Displays/MFT-121-Military-Full-Travel-Keyboard.htm) You say here that weight and stiffness, which the Unicomp clearly has in spades over the taffee of the Realforces in comparison.
Moreover, you insult other's opinions when you yourself do the same thing. You rely on "reports" of bad vortex caps, while you slam him for reading reviews of the FC660C and other Realforce boards.
So to summarize, you made a lie, by saying "I don't know... did you look at the pictures of the Vortex PBT's? They look kinda cheap, and I've read reports of some of the space bars coming in warped", a pretty pathetic claim when they haven't come in an appreciable number and warping isn't complained about.
You then assumed that I was slighting Topre "So the point he was trying to make about the rubber, was that rubber is a cheaper material than the plastic used in Cherry MX switches", embarrassingly wrong as it's quite obvious that I was not when I said "Topre switches use a rubber dome and have a shorter lifespan".
These would be two independent ideas, which would be obvious to those educated in the English language.
Please stop. I have never seen a fanboy of any keyboard (Model M, F, Cherry, ALPS, Matias, whatever) continue ragging on about it with such superiority and conviction that they are correct as rabid Topre jerkers.
Sorry but this is the post of a fanboy. If you want to discuss something like this try not being a jerk.
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
Except you contradict yourself when you say your 'opinions' are unbiased. Being YOUR opinion, it is biased. Completely. You feel your opinion is the most important in every thread I have seen you post in.
You spread your opinions all over the boards, looking for a conflict. It's a good thing I don't see anyone here really taking you seriously, because that would be scary.
Sorry but this is the post of a fanboy. If you want to discuss something like this try not being a jerk.
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
Except you contradict yourself when you say your 'opinions' are unbiased. Being YOUR opinion, it is biased. Completely. You feel your opinion is the most important in every thread I have seen you post in.
You spread your opinions all over the boards, looking for a conflict. It's a good thing I don't see anyone here really taking you seriously, because that would be scary.
Not only that, from what I can tell he has very strong opinions about equipment he's never actually used...Maybe I'm wrong....
Others agree with my opinion. I see a fanboy, and therefore wish to prove him incorrect. I'll stop if it's against the mods' wills, but it's improper for you to come down and judge fanboyism. I gave a much more unbiased view of things, so if you want to go call fanboy, do it to someone else. I can't stand having an idiotic opinion promulgated without proof over all others and not have it shut down.
I'm speaking as a forum member not a mod. In thread after thread you are abrasive and condescending. It's not something I'd moderate but it's something I'd call out. Your opinions are as subjective as anyone else's, yet you state them rudely as fact. You play fast and loose with logic and you grossly misrepresent what people say and mean.
It's ok that you don't like Topre switches. Stop trying to demonstrate to those that prefer them that they are wrong.
I'm speaking as a forum member not a mod. In thread after thread you are abrasive and condescending. It's not something I'd moderate but it's something I'd call out. Your opinions are as subjective as anyone else's, yet you state them rudely as fact. You play fast and loose with logic and you grossly misrepresent what people say and mean.
I'm in Aurora, but all I got are ErgoDoxes with Clears.
I'm in Aurora, but all I got are ErgoDoxes with Clears.
Yeah! Colorado! And sorry to revive this thread, but relevant: found someone to trade my HH for an ergodox with clears. After all the typing I've done on the HH, I have grown to love how it feels. I'm trading it because my hands and wrists are starting to hurt, and I need these for important things, like working, playing the violin, and jacking off.
I'm in Aurora, but all I got are ErgoDoxes with Clears.
Yeah! Colorado! And sorry to revive this thread, but relevant: found someone to trade my HH for an ergodox with clears. After all the typing I've done on the HH, I have grown to love how it feels. I'm trading it because my hands and wrists are starting to hurt, and I need these for important things, like working, playing the violin, and jacking off.
I think those last two might be related....
I'm in Aurora, but all I got are ErgoDoxes with Clears.
Yeah! Colorado! And sorry to revive this thread, but relevant: found someone to trade my HH for an ergodox with clears. After all the typing I've done on the HH, I have grown to love how it feels. I'm trading it because my hands and wrists are starting to hurt, and I need these for important things, like working, playing the violin, and jacking off.
I think those last two might be related....
Unless he is employed as a musician, or in the film industry?
I didn't get it too until i got one and started *thock*thock*thock*
Not sure if i can ever go back now.
That's actually most of the population.
People hammer their keys completely murdering any tactility and force requirement differences.
You need a typewriter ala clears and greens weights before people notice something.