so all you vintage black lovers, prove me wrong.
You can drive a Bentley, if only in your mind.
The older ones are WAY smoother feeling and a little lighter. If you go and modify them at all, then yes you just made it largely irrelevant. I have bought NOS G80 with vintage era blacks and I can definitely tell. It's not like night and day but there is some difference.
Linear clears and whites are still better.
I think we should start a club where we segregate non-white switchesDefinitely, there have been so many variations over the years.
I don't have any new MX Black currently but I've got MX Reds and vintage blacks. Vintage switches feel way smoother than reds, pretty much in Topre territory in this regard. Reds feel scratchy when I switch from Topre, vintage blacks, feel buttery smooth.
A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof. :)
A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof. :)
Hmm...
A couple folks have posted videos on YouTube of them typing on lubed vintage black switches, and you can hear the difference if you listen to a comparable "standard" black. The modified switches sound like raindrops pattering on your roof. :)
Hmm...
And I thought I was a master at stating the obvious...
I'm wondering if there is something different about newer switches because I keep hearing people talk about scratchy switches but I've never had any that were scratchy.
How many do you know? :Pme?
Normal blacks - scratchy when you press down. very noticeable when you push slowly, a bit noticeable when you push normally."Nixdorf blacks" ???
Vintage blacks (on a 1501-had, not sure how much it was used) - a little bit better, but not really noticeable
Nixdorf blacks - PERFECTLY smooth. No scratch whatsoever. Lubing literally doesn't make them feel any different.. They're already perfect. However, using korean springs (i was using 55g) make them make a weird noise. I found you can remedy this by putting grease (i used gpl205) on the bottom of the springs.
I wouldn't use vintage blacks over blacks. The difference simply ain't big 'nuf. Nixdorf blacks though.. there's no denying they are DEFINITELY different from normal/vintage blacks.
Stickers? Yeah, they're placebo. There's no denying it. I only use 'em cause I think they look cool (even though you practically never see them)
So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.
What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.
Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.
Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?
"Nixdorf blacks" ???From old nixdorf pcbs
Gosh! I didn't even know it existed ...
Where I can get this one?
So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.
What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.
Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.
Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?
I personally would rather type on RD than Blacks, they just don't feel right to me. All the lightness and soft touch I'm used to with Reds made heavy, but it's all personal preference, I know people find Blues annoying and scratchy also.
So is vintage blacks a thing? I recently bought a G80-1000 HDU off an online marketplace and I totally hate it.
What is the appeal? I mean there not as mushy as rubberdome, but it's close. There's not satisfaction to the press at all and the press is very heavy.
Compared to my Filco with MX Browns the G80-1000 is terrible, I was planning to harvest the keycaps and throw the board away.
Am I perhaps doing it wrong? Does it need cleaning/lubing and some getting used to?
I think TP4 hacked moose account ;)
That's an easy one, to give yourself more attention kekekeI think TP4 hacked moose account ;)
why would i boost some one else's post-count...
no incentive for me...Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0pride.gif)
ty Photekq, awesome pictures!"Nixdorf blacks" ???From old nixdorf pcbs
Gosh! I didn't even know it existed ...
Where I can get this one?Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/IkYkJgH.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YA7CzkO.jpg)
From old nixdorf pcbsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/IkYkJgH.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YA7CzkO.jpg)
Some of the concepts and theories in this thread are actually sad :))
there is no 'selling point', there is no motive for selling switches...seriously guys :))
I don't understand why there is so much hate for such a simple idea...it's literally facts about older switches..not a big dealFrom old nixdorf pcbsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/IkYkJgH.jpg)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/YA7CzkO.jpg)
Still can't get over those pics... :-[ mine is still in limbo
People just love to argue on GH--that's just how it is. On average, I think vintage Blacks will be smoother than modern ones that are new. But as to why they are smoother--whether it's from wear or something else, no one seems to know the precise answer. I don't think they are popular enough to be a selling point for a keyboard anyway. Pretty sure "ergo-Clears" are the biggest buzzword for people in terms of boosting a sale on the Classifieds. Vintage MX Blacks are not high up on that list. Considering they've been sold for like $0.30 a switch, they are not like a royalty switch. But those who know the buttery smoothness of how vintage MX Blacks can be will continue appreciating them, as well as those with worn-in modern MX Blacks.
I've never experienced any rough, scratchy or gritty switches....maybe I just have vintage fingers :eek:
The diecast and the materials for stems changed over time with cherry production.
I made this post by mistake.
The diecast and the materials for stems changed over time with cherry production.
Plastics aren't diecast. Most likely the stems are injection molded. Metals are diecast.
But this can't be denied: "vintage" blacks will sell faster and likely at a higher cost than "regular" blacks purely because of the hype some people are creating around them.
That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.
I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.
but everything i've heard in the last months
I don't think there is the malicious intended 'hype' that you think exists about them
That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.
I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html (http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html)
Smooth Blacks feel smooth regardless of what springs are in them. I can't comment on springs, as my batch of vintage Blacks from Whiskytango has been used stock as well as with 62g Originative springs, and it feels ridiculously smooth vs. modern Blacks but also other vintage Blacks I've tried (only one other batch, so small number statistics...)--regardless of springs. I've been somewhat avoiding these discussions and yet participating in a way, because I can't argue something I don't have enough data on, but at the same time I'm interested in the truth, as I love my smooth vintage Blacks. I am a scientist in my background, and I can only extrapolate on what I know and see if what others say fits with that and try to make conclusions. But the problem with Vintage Blacks is that there is not enough actual comparison. Someone needs to find a brand new unused board with vintage Blacks--better yet a few unused boards, as I firmly believe that different batches of switches can have varying smoothness. Then try those few keyboards and compare them against 2-3 brand new modern keyboards with MX Blacks. And after that, do some chemical analysis to see if composition of the stems is different. Perhaps look under an electronic microscope to see if there are any obvious surface texture differences (I used to be able to access one when my friend was still a Biology post doc nearby).
Until then, the speculation will continue. But the amount of reviews stating that vintage Blacks are smooth is in favor of it being a safe assumption that vintage Blacks are *smooth* switches. The degree of smoothness will vary, but chances are--they will be smooth. Used modern MX Blacks will also be smooth on more frequently used switches, but I don't know how the two will compare.
That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.
I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.
And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.
That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.
I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.
And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.
And you CAN try to prove me wrong. In fact, you have NO PROOF.
And you CAN jump into a conversation and provide little to nothing in it. In fact, you ARE.
That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.
I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.
And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.
And you CAN try to prove me wrong. In fact, you have NO PROOF.
And you CAN jump into a conversation and provide little to nothing in it. In fact, you ARE.
Bah, looking at your other thread, you're just trolling. Hopefully.
but everything i've heard in the last monthsHmmm... These "vintage" blacks have been around a lot longer than months though, right? Weird....
what i've heard in the last months...not saying they have only been here for a few months..
can you read words? literally just read it and don't make a little immature dig at what was said
I don't think there is the malicious intended 'hype' that you think exists about them
I never said it was malicious. I said it was hype. And it is.
I'm not upset in the slightest. I am, in fact, having a great time.
Your post did say that you agree with some things and disagree with others. And my post in response said I disagree with some of the things you say, and in response, because you can't argue any further, you resort to name calling. Posing an argument in a discussion thread is now edgy and makes the person doing so an asshat? Well, I'll be.
I don't have anyone watching the IRC for me. But when you mention something that someone thinks is funny enough to mention to me, then of course I'm going to hear about it.
The truth is, if you're the one who thought of me as a good friend, they why did you decide to destroy that friendship by attacking me multiple times because of petty things? I didn't clash with you at all then. I let you say what you had to say the first time, you apologized, and I said alright. Then you did it again, tried to apologize a second time, but I knew that sticking around for that **** would see me having to listen to you whine about something else a third time.
In conclusion, I only tried to defend my argument in this discussion thread, you couldn't handle it, and resorted to calling me an asshat for no reason.
OK, if you guys are REALLY interested in this question, I will help design and experiment and analyse the results. It is relatively straightforward to do if we can make boards with each switch where it isn't identifiable which has which switch by looking at it. Then we send them around in a tour, or gather people in one place to test.
If anyone's interested, I'd be more than happy to lend my statistical training to the community.
FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.
FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.
Even if the plastic is different, that wouldn't tell you if there's a non-placebo difference in feel. I still advocate statistics as well.
FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.
Even if the plastic is different, that wouldn't tell you if there's a non-placebo difference in feel. I still advocate statistics as well.
But would peoples experience with different switches, time in use etc all play into the outcome?
Didn't realize that's what you wanted to run. Thought you just wanted to offer people the chance to try out "vintage" Blacks vs "modern" Blacks. I'm still doing my experiment if the person is willing to help. If you want to run your tour/experiment, that'd be interesting and I'd like to take part :D.
Don't really know that much about placebo testing off the top of my head, maybe you can fill me in?
Maybe even super glue the caps onto the stems.
Maybe even super glue the caps onto the stems.
^^ I was thinking this.
OR setup a double blind study with random people off the street maybe we could get CM to sponsor to get the word out about mechnicals.
The real problem with this is that we would need NEW vintage blacks and be able to compare them with NEW blacks. Also, it would be even more nice to have a batch of both with original spring and then another batch of both modded with the same new spring. This way, we could more easily discard the wear factor of the switch itself since there is a very possible chance that people could prefer vintage blacks for the simple reason that either the spring is different OR the switch has been used a lot and feels smoother simply because it has been used a lot.
So I would much prefer a test analysis, but this blind test could be fun anyway even if I doubt we could get an accurate conclusion because of the reasons mentioned above.
I don't know why springs are brought up--they do nothing to change the smooth or scratchy feeling. I've tested my vintage Blacks from 2 batches with different springs--they feel the same just lighter or heavier.
Just out of curiosity, are vintage blacks and modern blacks identical in design? Is it only the material used is different?
Say for example if I pop one of them open would the stem look identical?
Well, I performed a scientific experiment on myself, and I preferred vintage "used" blacks to modern "new" blacks. I didn't tell myself which one I preferred until after the test was completed. So my results are pretty definitive: vintage blacks are definitely better, and there is no placebo effect. My sample set preferred the vintage blacks over the new blacks 100% of the time. That is stated with a confidence level of 99% (which is the highest confidence interval you can get in statistics).
The real problem with this is that we would need NEW vintage blacks and be able to compare them with NEW blacks. Also, it would be even more nice to have a batch of both with original spring and then another batch of both modded with the same new spring. This way, we could more easily discard the wear factor of the switch itself since there is a very possible chance that people could prefer vintage blacks for the simple reason that either the spring is different OR the switch has been used a lot and feels smoother simply because it has been used a lot.
So I would much prefer a test analysis, but this blind test could be fun anyway even if I doubt we could get an accurate conclusion because of the reasons mentioned above.
You could take vintage blacks and regular blacks and swap the springs if you want to see if that's a contributing factor.
However, we can use the power of statistics to get more accurate results!
One is that there are ways to control for these confounders. Another is that we can use more than two keyboards. What we really care about is the AVERAGE difference between vintage and regular blacks. Any two keyboards could be highly variable. But if we have enough people typing on enough keyboards, we can get a sense of the group differences. It doesn't even have to be the same people typing on each set of keyboards.
It's always a weird feeling to agree with tp, but for several months, I myself have thought it was the bottom housing all along too: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37987.msg765987#msg765987
My thought has been that it's not necessarily (just) the side rails of the housing, but the tension of the gold contacts against the stem legs - maybe by design, or maybe by wear.
It's always a weird feeling to agree with tp, but for several months, I myself have thought it was the bottom housing all along too: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37987.msg765987#msg765987
My thought has been that it's not necessarily (just) the side rails of the housing, but the tension of the gold contacts against the stem legs - maybe by design, or maybe by wear.
I've tested it not to be the case, at least with my switches. I have 2 batches of vintage Blacks. The stems make the difference, not the housings.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anecdote
OK, so I guess "personal anecdote" is more accurate and hearsay isn't correct if it's personal experiences.
But I guess my point was that it drives me bonkers when people debate something that can actually be quantified and answered.
I'm happy to help with experimental design and analysis. The important thing is science!
ive tried new and old switches and i truthfully feel no difference. no linear switch has felt scratchy at all.