Vintage Blacks are a placebo, prove me wrong.

[JPG]

I think TP4 hacked moose account 

[tp4tissue]

I think TP4 hacked moose account 

why would i boost some one else's post-count...

no incentive for me...

[goobus]

I think TP4 hacked moose account 

why would i boost some one else's post-count...

no incentive for me...

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That's an easy one, to give yourself more attention kekeke

[agodinhost]

"Nixdorf blacks"
Gosh! I didn't even know it existed ...
Where I can get this one?

From old nixdorf pcbs

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ty Photekq, awesome pictures!
 

[Dubsgalore]

Some of the concepts and theories in this thread are actually sad  )

there is no 'selling point', there is no motive for selling switches...seriously guys  )

I don't understand why there is so much hate for such a simple idea...it's literally facts about older switches..not a big deal

From old nixdorf pcbs

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Still can't get over those pics... mine is still in limbo

[Photoelectric]

Some of the concepts and theories in this thread are actually sad  )

there is no 'selling point', there is no motive for selling switches...seriously guys  )

I don't understand why there is so much hate for such a simple idea...it's literally facts about older switches..not a big deal

From old nixdorf pcbs

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Still can't get over those pics... mine is still in limbo

People just love to argue on GH--that's just how it is.  On average, I think vintage Blacks will be smoother than modern ones that are new.  But as to why they are smoother--whether it's from wear or something else, no one seems to know the precise answer.  I don't think they are popular enough to be a selling point for a keyboard anyway.  Pretty sure "ergo-Clears" are the biggest buzzword for people in terms of boosting a sale on the Classifieds.  Vintage MX Blacks are not high up on that list.  Considering they've been sold for like $0.30 a switch, they are not like a royalty switch.  But those who know the buttery smoothness of how vintage MX Blacks can be will continue appreciating them, as well as those with worn-in modern MX Blacks.

[Dubsgalore]

People just love to argue on GH--that's just how it is.  On average, I think vintage Blacks will be smoother than modern ones that are new.  But as to why they are smoother--whether it's from wear or something else, no one seems to know the precise answer.  I don't think they are popular enough to be a selling point for a keyboard anyway.  Pretty sure "ergo-Clears" are the biggest buzzword for people in terms of boosting a sale on the Classifieds.  Vintage MX Blacks are not high up on that list.  Considering they've been sold for like $0.30 a switch, they are not like a royalty switch.  But those who know the buttery smoothness of how vintage MX Blacks can be will continue appreciating them, as well as those with worn-in modern MX Blacks.

There is definitely something different, it's not a placebo. The diecast and the materials for stems changed over time with cherry production, and the springs are naturally worn down over time. I've also heard the bottom housing is different as well, but i can't confirm that at the second. Modern Blacks just feel scratchy at stock, and vintage ones are just smoother, it's not placebo. the 'selling point' is blatant stupidity, there is nothing of that going on. how cheap they are is also just even more to say about how it's not about selling them...i think Ergo-Clears, whites & greens are honestly buzzwords in the classifieds nowadays..
"But those who know the buttery smoothness of how vintage MX Blacks can be will continue appreciating them, as well as those with worn-in modern MX Blacks."
Very accurate statement right there ^

[SpAmRaY]

 I've never experienced any rough, scratchy or gritty switches....maybe I just have vintage fingers

[Photoelectric]

I've never experienced any rough, scratchy or gritty switches....maybe I just have vintage fingers

Or lucky.  I've experienced gritty / scratchy Browns and MX Blacks.

[SpAmRaY]

I'm just insensitive

[PewMcDaddy]

I made this post by mistake.

[Photoelectric]

Well, I think if I had put my old CM Storm Trigger next to a Ducky I had--both with Browns and brand new--and sat you down to type on each one, you'd notice immediately   I can feel a difference between vintage Blacks from WiskyTango and another batch of vintage Blacks similarly--one is very smooth, and the other is gritty in comparison.  Both are much smoother than brand new MX Blacks I had in one of my Filcos though.  I've tried so many different batches of switches now, I can tell right away the difference between smooth switches, some friction, or a lot of friction/grit.

[esoomenona]

I'm so glad Dubsgalore worked for Cherry in the 80s and early 90s, and has such insider knowledge on the die cast and material used in their production of switches.

[CPTBadAss]

The diecast and the materials for stems changed over time with cherry production.

Plastics aren't diecast. Most likely the stems are injection molded. Metals are diecast.

[SpAmRaY]

I made this post by mistake.

^^ best post in this thread

[esoomenona]

Guys, stop arguing, please. This discussion is over.

The facts are in. The definitive proof has been provided by the foremost expert in Cherry switch engineering.

[Dubsgalore]

You tried to say that vintage blacks were designed as a 'selling point'........

The diecast and the materials for stems changed over time with cherry production.

Plastics aren't diecast. Most likely the stems are injection molded. Metals are diecast.

Ok my mistake, But i think something was changed over time about it, and i think that makes sense industrially and naturally

[esoomenona]

Wow... don't sound so sure anymore.

And someone tried to counter with Ergo Clears being a buzzword. But Ergo Clears are definitive. They are Clears with lighter springs. We have plenty of evidence that springs are either lighter or heavier. There's no arguing that.

But there is this discussion constantly, and it's getting more and more buzz, so how is it not buzz? Someone says "ermahgerd, vintage blacks such smoove" and people go "hmm...", then someone posts "vintage" blacks, and boom they're sold. And even Photoelectric admits that the "vintage" blacks (s)he has received have been smoother or grittier, which doesn't tell me "vintage" blacks are smoother, but that, like so many things in life, these switches are made with tolerances and variations. But this can't be denied: "vintage" blacks will sell faster and likely at a higher cost than "regular" blacks purely because of the hype some people are creating around them.

[Dubsgalore]

You sound like you just really hate the 'hype' being created around them. I'm sure there is a 'buzz' around the word 'vintage' which would motivate and entice people to buy them, but maybe let's make a new term for them that doesn't get you upset. There is no denying that the switches in old 1xxx boards and wyse and older terminal boards are not using the same blacks that are made today. I think it just literally makes sense for things to change over time. Modern blacks really feel scratchy and don't feel as smooth, and i firmly believe that.

I think there certainly is a 'placebo' that's being created here, but it's not everyone's motivation and it's certainly not a big deal. There actually is a difference between the 'older' blacks and the modern ones, whether you want to call them vintage or not. i wasn't arguing that if someone who isn't as informed sees 'vintage blacks' they might be inclined to want to buy them over regular ones, but that's simply just because of lack of information. they are different, but it is just preference.

[Dubsgalore]

But this can't be denied: "vintage" blacks will sell faster and likely at a higher cost than "regular" blacks purely because of the hype some people are creating around them.

no one is arguing against that, i think you are telling yourself that people are. actually agree with you there, but you cannot deny there is a difference between the ones made originally, and the ones made today.

People are probably going to do this, and this happens everywhere, it's hard to get around. I don't think anyone is however offering them for premium prices either, and i don't think extreme profit is the motivator either.

[esoomenona]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

[Dubsgalore]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

You are over exaggerating the point of the thread by 'attacking the hype', I don't think there is the malicious intended 'hype' that you think exists about them

The logo has certainly changed, and the top too, but everything i've heard in the last months was that the bottom housing and the stem both changed, and that was the big difference.

Sure isn't any immediate proof for you, but it is there. There isn't any proof that they are not the same either, is there any definite statement that they have no changed at all? It's not a one way street

[esoomenona]

This is what's happening:

There is no actual proof. There is nothing but anecdotal "evidence". And there are so many conflicting accounts. Some people claim the stems are different (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49636.msg1095256#msg1095256), some people are claiming the housings are different (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50149.msg1091374#msg1091374), some people are saying "these are smoother" and "these are smoother smoother", and yet even more people claim there is no difference at all.

So how can you come in here and say, that the facts are clear and without a shadow of a doubt that they ARE different? Where is your unfounded proof?

[esoomenona]

but everything i've heard in the last months

Hmmm... These "vintage" blacks have been around a lot longer than months though, right? Weird....

I don't think there is the malicious intended 'hype' that you think exists about them

I never said it was malicious. I said it was hype. And it is.

[JPG]

Only 1 way to prove anything:

Get someone to perform a lab test of the material used in different parts of the switches for a modern black and vintage black.

Until then, it's all suppositions. And the fact that vintage blacks will have been used for different amounts of keypress will be add a random factor to any "feel" test anyway.

But it's still swag 

[SpAmRaY]

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html

^^ some good info there about this

[davkol]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.

[CPTBadAss]

http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html

So here's one part of the puzzle I can talk about because of ray's find: The spring.

If sixty's confirmation source is correct, which I'm assuming it is, the same logic for Blues applies for Blacks. In other words, the diameter and material type have changed from '92 to '13. It might be that the diameter has to change because of the different Modulus of Elasticites between 304 and 301 to compensate and generate a similar K rate.

What sixty missed in the spring rate equation is that n_a is the number of active coils in the spring. These coils also have an angle they're spun at. So it would've been nice if we got pictures of the springs themselves to see if the coil number changed.

This could mean that the difference between Blue springs and Black springs is the number of active coils and the angle they're wound/spun/created at. If this is the case, that Black and Blue springs have the same material type but a different diameter, then we can then safely assume that the springs did change. And if the K values aren't exactly the same between the two springs, vintage versus modern, then that would contribute to feeling different.


Check out the springs in ripster's picture.

From a glance it looks like the diameter of the wire looks the same between Blacks and Blues. So that assumptions means it's just coil and angle that is different. And the color of the springs could be different because of the cleaning method during post processing or maybe just the heat involved when making the springs. Of course, we also should account for wear or corrosion from use or lack of use but I think my logic is sound *if my assumption that Black and Blue springs share the same material is correct*.

Verdict's still out on the stem and bottom of the switch though.

And for anyone who's really curious, here's some links (Both are from Matweb) to statistics on 304 and 301 stainless steel so you can run numbers.

304 Stainless

301 Stainless

[Photoelectric]

Smooth Blacks feel smooth regardless of what springs are in them.  I can't comment on springs, as my batch of vintage Blacks from Whiskytango has been used stock as well as with 62g Originative springs, and it feels ridiculously smooth vs. modern Blacks but also other vintage Blacks I've tried (only one other batch, so small number statistics...)--regardless of springs.  I've been somewhat avoiding these discussions and yet participating in a way, because I can't argue something I don't have enough data on, but at the same time I'm interested in the truth, as I love my smooth vintage Blacks.  I am a scientist in my background, and I can only extrapolate on what I know and see if what others say fits with that and try to make conclusions.  But the problem with Vintage Blacks is that there is not enough actual comparison.  Someone needs to find a brand new unused board with vintage Blacks--better yet a few unused boards, as I firmly believe that different batches of switches can have varying smoothness.  Then try those few keyboards and compare them against 2-3 brand new modern keyboards with MX Blacks.  And after that, do some chemical analysis to see if composition of the stems is different.  Perhaps look under an electronic microscope to see if there are any obvious surface texture differences (I used to be able to access one when my friend was still a Biology post doc nearby).

Until then, the speculation will continue.  But the amount of reviews stating that vintage Blacks are smooth is in favor of it being a safe assumption that vintage Blacks are *smooth* switches.  The degree of smoothness will vary, but chances are--they will be smooth.  Used modern MX Blacks will also be smooth on more frequently used switches, but I don't know how the two will compare.

[SpAmRaY]

Smooth Blacks feel smooth regardless of what springs are in them.  I can't comment on springs, as my batch of vintage Blacks from Whiskytango has been used stock as well as with 62g Originative springs, and it feels ridiculously smooth vs. modern Blacks but also other vintage Blacks I've tried (only one other batch, so small number statistics...)--regardless of springs.  I've been somewhat avoiding these discussions and yet participating in a way, because I can't argue something I don't have enough data on, but at the same time I'm interested in the truth, as I love my smooth vintage Blacks.  I am a scientist in my background, and I can only extrapolate on what I know and see if what others say fits with that and try to make conclusions.  But the problem with Vintage Blacks is that there is not enough actual comparison.  Someone needs to find a brand new unused board with vintage Blacks--better yet a few unused boards, as I firmly believe that different batches of switches can have varying smoothness.  Then try those few keyboards and compare them against 2-3 brand new modern keyboards with MX Blacks.  And after that, do some chemical analysis to see if composition of the stems is different.  Perhaps look under an electronic microscope to see if there are any obvious surface texture differences (I used to be able to access one when my friend was still a Biology post doc nearby).

Until then, the speculation will continue.  But the amount of reviews stating that vintage Blacks are smooth is in favor of it being a safe assumption that vintage Blacks are *smooth* switches.  The degree of smoothness will vary, but chances are--they will be smooth.  Used modern MX Blacks will also be smooth on more frequently used switches, but I don't know how the two will compare.

^^ I vote this be your next project!!! ('mad keyboard scientist')

[esoomenona]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.

And you CAN try to prove me wrong. In fact, you have NO PROOF.

And you CAN jump into a conversation and provide little to nothing in it. In fact, you ARE.

[davkol]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.

And you CAN try to prove me wrong. In fact, you have NO PROOF.

And you CAN jump into a conversation and provide little to nothing in it. In fact, you ARE.

Bah, looking at your other thread, you're just trolling. Hopefully.

[esoomenona]

That is the point of this thread. I CAN deny that there is a difference, and so do many other people.

I don't deny that they changed their logo, and thus probably made a new mold for the switch housing TOP, but that doesn't mean anything to me in regards to the stem or housing bottom.

And you CAN be wrong. In fact, you ARE.

And you CAN try to prove me wrong. In fact, you have NO PROOF.

And you CAN jump into a conversation and provide little to nothing in it. In fact, you ARE.

Bah, looking at your other thread, you're just trolling. Hopefully.

The burden of proof has been placed on those who make claims that can't be corroborated but from other people who claim they feel the same thing in the face of even more people who claim that there is no different feeling, which gives rise to the possibility of it being a placebo effect, and you are going to take the easy route out in saying that I'm trolling because I've made a joke in the past?

[Dubsgalore]

but everything i've heard in the last months

Hmmm... These "vintage" blacks have been around a lot longer than months though, right? Weird....

what i've heard in the last months...not saying they have only been here for a few months..
can you read words? literally just read it and don't make a little immature dig at what was said
 

I don't think there is the malicious intended 'hype' that you think exists about them

I never said it was malicious. I said it was hype. And it is.

So why do you get so butthurt over it? hype is going to exist in a place like this, being an edgy asshat isn't going to get you to your goal of getting rid of it

[esoomenona]

I find it hilarious that you think my intent is to be butthurt and "edgy", merely because I oppose your point of view. Sounds as though you're the one who is butthurt because I don't agree with you.

The fact is, I don't care at all about this thread, this topic, or most of what you say. But I'm sure you know that. Yet you just can't help yourself but to continue to think that I do. You're egotistic and narcissistic in that you think people should care and agree with you, and it upsets you when someone doesn't. I've seen this numerous times, from your outrage at my moosesicle, your anger at me saying something that others agreed with and caused them to say you were wrong, how you continually talk about me and what I say in IRC because it upsets you, and just now.

[SpAmRaY]

anybody know what happened to thimplum

[Dubsgalore]

I think you're upset about what happened back 2 months ago, and how everything has gone since then.
If you can read my last post, i literally said that I agree with you on some points here in this thread, (which you continue to post in) but i disagree with other things.
People who truly don't care don't have to declare that they don't care, but you obviously just did declare that you don't.
Your accusations about my 'narcissism' and my 'ego' (ironic, right?) really make me laugh, it shows that you've thought about this and you continue you.
Honestly, I don't know why you think i talk so much about you, maybe if you spent time in IRC and didn't have missilaire or whoever else watch for you, then you would realize that you are not brought up...no one focuses on you, you're not the 'talk of the town' with your edgy posts.

And to be 100% honest, I am angry about you, because I really liked you for a long time, and I saw you as my good friend. You gave me a lot of advice and taught me a lot, and i honestly miss that about you. You began to act like a ****, and i didn't like that, and i guess we clashed. So yes, i am sad about how this turned out, and i am angry, because this hasn't been fun or pleasant. 

The point is, I don't know why you think that I care so much about if others agree with me or not, or talk ****, or anything, because I really, really don't. I don't hate you, I don't want to fight really, I do still think that vintage blacks are different, and i will find proof to show that you are wrong.

[esoomenona]

I'm not upset in the slightest. I am, in fact, having a great time.

Your post did say that you agree with some things and disagree with others. And my post in response said I disagree with some of the things you say, and in response, because you can't argue any further, you resort to name calling. Posing an argument in a discussion thread is now edgy and makes the person doing so an asshat? Well, I'll be.

I don't have anyone watching the IRC for me. But when you mention something that someone thinks is funny enough to mention to me, then of course I'm going to hear about it.

The truth is, if you're the one who thought of me as a good friend, they why did you decide to destroy that friendship by attacking me multiple times because of petty things? I didn't clash with you at all then. I let you say what you had to say the first time, you apologized, and I said alright. Then you did it again, tried to apologize a second time, but I knew that sticking around for that **** would see me having to listen to you whine about something else a third time.


In conclusion, I only tried to defend my argument in this discussion thread, you couldn't handle it, and resorted to calling me an asshat for no reason.

[JPG]

Come on, stop discussing this until someone brings some lab results.

Until then, no one knows for sure.

[Photoelectric]

This is a good example of 10% logical discussion bringing up facts and 90% forum bickering.  Is this a thread to point fingers or to establish the nature of vintage Cherry switches?  Sadly, many similar discussions regarding vintage MX Blacks devolve into this.  But also you can't just disregard people who own vintage Blacks and post that in their experience, vintage Blacks are very smooth--smoother than modern ones they've tried.  We at least have that feedback from quite a few people.  As to WHY that is the case, we don't yet know.  So until there are more facts, there's no point to call it a fad or anything at all--just concede that more research needs to be done and help with that.  It's just switches... there are dozens of them to suit everyone's tastes.

[Dubsgalore]

"And my post in response said I disagree with some of the things you say," that is true
"and in response, because you can't argue any further, you resort to name calling." this is not true. you followed up with your reply, by picking apart my response and making more digs at me

If you don't have anyone watching for you, then i don't know why you think I "how you continually talk about me and what I say in IRC because it upsets you", i don't see how you could think that, because it's simply not true. please check the logs, I can get them for you from the last two months if you wish, and you can sift through

Don't act like I destroyed our friendship, because I didn't. Can you not admit the type of your posts have changed at one point? at one point, you went from a pretty serious, cool guy, to a constant troll. I didn't get mad over petty things, I didn't like how you were changing and I honestly saw you becoming a **** on the forum. I actually got upset over the damn moosesicle because i thought you had been teasing giving it to me for a while. hell, even before you did it, you asked me if i would buy a julysicle for the right price. "but I knew that sticking around for that **** would see me having to listen to you whine about something else a third time.", what was i 'whining' about? Don't act at all like i was the one to bother you and whine to you about 'petty things', to the point where it ruined our friendship after two incidences.

Your arugment in this thread consists of you trolling it (as usual) and actually acted like an asshat. I saw your post about becoming a "selling point" and i just face palmed. you literally come into every thread with such negativity. It's very bothering and doesn't help the conversation and discussion.

I hope you are having a great time, because i'm not.

[tp4tissue]

I'm not upset in the slightest. I am, in fact, having a great time.

Your post did say that you agree with some things and disagree with others. And my post in response said I disagree with some of the things you say, and in response, because you can't argue any further, you resort to name calling. Posing an argument in a discussion thread is now edgy and makes the person doing so an asshat? Well, I'll be.

I don't have anyone watching the IRC for me. But when you mention something that someone thinks is funny enough to mention to me, then of course I'm going to hear about it.

The truth is, if you're the one who thought of me as a good friend, they why did you decide to destroy that friendship by attacking me multiple times because of petty things? I didn't clash with you at all then. I let you say what you had to say the first time, you apologized, and I said alright. Then you did it again, tried to apologize a second time, but I knew that sticking around for that **** would see me having to listen to you whine about something else a third time.


In conclusion, I only tried to defend my argument in this discussion thread, you couldn't handle it, and resorted to calling me an asshat for no reason.

OMG esoo.... and davk...dubsg... You guys are turning into women... Stop this... righ now... 

Next ur gonna start talking about your feelings.....

MEN don't have feelings...

[DrinkTea]

OK, if you guys are REALLY interested in this question, I will help design and experiment and analyse the results. It is relatively straightforward to do if we can make boards with each switch where it isn't identifiable which has which switch by looking at it. Then we send them around in a tour, or gather people in one place to test.

If anyone's interested, I'd be more than happy to lend my statistical training to the community.

[SpAmRaY]

OK, if you guys are REALLY interested in this question, I will help design and experiment and analyse the results. It is relatively straightforward to do if we can make boards with each switch where it isn't identifiable which has which switch by looking at it. Then we send them around in a tour, or gather people in one place to test.

If anyone's interested, I'd be more than happy to lend my statistical training to the community.

It's still subjective, what we need is some chemical analysis!!

[CPTBadAss]

FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.

[DrinkTea]

No, it isn't.

What we'd be testing for is if people can tell the difference.

We would ask people to identify which board was which just by typing on them. With a reasonable sample size, it would be obvious if people can identify them at a rate better than chance.

[DrinkTea]

FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.

Even if the plastic is different, that wouldn't tell you if there's a non-placebo difference in feel. I still advocate statistics as well.

[CPTBadAss]

Didn't realize that's what you wanted to run. Thought you just wanted to offer people the chance to try out "vintage" Blacks vs "modern" Blacks. I'm still doing my experiment if the person is willing to help. If you want to run your tour/experiment, that'd be interesting and I'd like to take part .

Don't really know that much about placebo testing off the top of my head, maybe you can fill me in?

[SpAmRaY]

FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.

Even if the plastic is different, that wouldn't tell you if there's a non-placebo difference in feel. I still advocate statistics as well.

But would peoples experience with different switches, time in use etc all play into the outcome?

[DrinkTea]

FWIW, I have setup plans to try and get access to a plastics testing lab so we can do some proper testing and figure out what materials the stems are made from.

Even if the plastic is different, that wouldn't tell you if there's a non-placebo difference in feel. I still advocate statistics as well.

But would peoples experience with different switches, time in use etc all play into the outcome?

Easy enough to keep track of. We can ask people a series of questions like if they've used vintage blacks before, how many switch types they've tried, how long they've been into keyboards, etc.
Then you can use those as predictors in a logistic regression.