I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.
If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...
I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/d1eef220.gif)
Clears are not difficult to type on if you're not bottoming out. If you're the kind of typist who punches keys with their fingers--they'll be heavier. If you touch type, they'll be great. There's a defined bump area, and it's easy to stop just past it, as the force to actuate is significantly higher past that point. So they feel very cushiony without the more jarring bottoming out you'd get on Browns. I've owned Browns, and Clears are heavier, but not MUCH heavier. If you've used rubber dome keyboards most of your life, Clears won't be any heavier than that. I strongly prefer stock Clears because of their special springs: light actuation, heavy bottoming out. ergo-Clears lose that property and become wobbly to me and easy to bottom out when typing quickly. On stock clears, I just float over the actuation points when touch typing and it feels cushiony and very satisfying.
For reference, I now have 2 keyboards with stock (meaning spring is stock) Clears (Ducky Shine II, and Filco Majestouch 2 TKL), and I'm even considering putting them into my LZ-GH now.
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
Clears are not difficult to type on if you're not bottoming out. If you're the kind of typist who punches keys with their fingers--they'll be heavier. If you touch type, they'll be great. There's a defined bump area, and it's easy to stop just past it, as the force to actuate is significantly higher past that point. So they feel very cushiony without the more jarring bottoming out you'd get on Browns. I've owned Browns, and Clears are heavier, but not MUCH heavier. If you've used rubber dome keyboards most of your life, Clears won't be any heavier than that. I strongly prefer stock Clears because of their special springs: light actuation, heavy bottoming out. ergo-Clears lose that property and become wobbly to me and easy to bottom out when typing quickly. On stock clears, I just float over the actuation points when touch typing and it feels cushiony and very satisfying.
For reference, I now have 2 keyboards with stock (meaning spring is stock) Clears (Ducky Shine II, and Filco Majestouch 2 TKL), and I'm even considering putting them into my LZ-GH now.
Ah right, the extra force after actuation. I generally don't bottom out on Blues, but I just feel that the force might be too different when I use clicky keyboards.
Honestly, if I was able to find a Shine II/III (dream board) with Clears, I'd snap it up instantly, but I even posted on Ducky's page and got just a cryptic answer about Clears on Shine 3. I know that they have them on II's, but I can't find them at all.Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.
Bump force is not very heavy at all. If Browns are generally an adjustment after rubber domes in how light they are, Clears feel just right. The springs in Clears are not the same as those in MX Blacks, and their force profiles are different. I have and use both.
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.
If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...
I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/d1eef220.gif)
Linkbane
There is an add on eBay for a DK Shine 3 any MX color and back light color just a little pricey though $180 plus shipping
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.
If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...
I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/d1eef220.gif)
If you have your wrists straight, which they should be, whether you rest your wrist or not is irrelevant to how much effort it takes to press keys.
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing
Linkbane
There is an add on eBay for a DK Shine 3 any MX color and back light color just a little pricey though $180 plus shipping
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing
Female vs Male piano Players HUGE difference... "WHY"... ARM STRENGTH...Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0box.gif)
You're right that maybe at the "highest level" the difference isn't great... but... for the bracket below highest.. the difference is pretty big..
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.
First thing is, actuation force is the amount of force at the point of actuation. In the case of linear, that is the same. In the case of switches with a bump (like clears, brown, blues, etc), the amount of force necessary to overcome the bump is HIGHER than the actuation force.
I'm not doing myself any favor? I'm speaking in facts and you're making yourself look foolish because you actually don't understand this at all.
Actuation force is not bottom out force..never has been..never will be...
Here's a url on another site..maybe you'll understand it then..
http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide
See how there is a peak force? Peak force is what is needed to overcome the tactile bump on the switch. Look at the force diagram..that is what is shows..
Maybe you can't read a graph..I'm not sure....Are you really telling me you can't see how much extra force it takes to overcome the bump? And you're telling me actuation = force necessary to get to actuation with tactile switches?
So blues, how much force would you need to use to get to actuation? Because if you tell me 50g and you placed a 50g weight on your switch, it will never make it over that bump. I'm not sure how else to explain it to you...sock puppets maybe?
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing
Female vs Male piano Players HUGE difference... "WHY"... ARM STRENGTH...Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0box.gif)
You're right that maybe at the "highest level" the difference isn't great... but... for the bracket below highest.. the difference is pretty big..
I've known lots of females at least as strong, if not stronger, than the males around them.
It's literally impossible to argue with you because every time I point out where you're wrong, you cover your posterior and say that that was what you said.Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...
In response to "Are you certain that Clears are heavier than Blacks? Because I saw that Clears have a 55g actuation force. "
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear)
Right here. So please dig your head out of your posterior and argue with the authors of the article, cheers.
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you. Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself. I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard. Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs.
Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion. They are still lighter than many rubber domes! Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away. Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in. I did not like the result At All. It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake. Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears.
Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy. But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself. Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion. Don't repeat my mistakes :)
You quoted the wrong post, dood :p
You quoted the wrong post, dood :p
I say they're about the same in heaviness...
You're saying it doesn't matter....
We are now sworn enemies...Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion_custom/th_0kick.gif)
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you. Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself. I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard. Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs.
Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion. They are still lighter than many rubber domes! Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away. Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in. I did not like the result At All. It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake. Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears.
Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy. But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself. Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion. Don't repeat my mistakes :)
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you. Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself. I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard. Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs.
Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion. They are still lighter than many rubber domes! Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away. Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in. I did not like the result At All. It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake. Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears.
Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy. But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself. Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion. Don't repeat my mistakes :)
Isn't buying any switch and pretty much everything up to personal preference?
Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy. But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself. Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion. Don't repeat my mistakes :)
I'm not even making a comparison on which is heavier and which isn't...I'm just stating specific facts.
We know that actuation force for tactile switches is not the force necessary to achieve actuation. It is the force AT actuation. I think Linkbane's inability to understand that is where is misunderstanding is from and why he keeps making that mistake on different threads.
Yes, clears actuate at 55g...After you have hit 65g peak and overcome the tactile bump. Which took more peak force to get to? Clears....You could argue that total WORK might be close at actuation but I wasn't talking about that. I'm merely stating the 55g actuation (for clears) is a meaningless number because it requires MORE force to hit that...You have to use more than 55g of force, you must use a minimum of 65g. Blacks require a minimum of 60g.
I then talked about how clears ramp up in force after actuation..basically going from 55g to 100g in 2mm. At 3mm they're taking nearly as much force to hold down as blacks are at 4mm. People can make their own conclusions what will be better for them or if they consider it a heavy switch....but for someone to come to that conclusion based on actuation is worthless because the number doesn't have any real meaning in this case.
In my rather exaggerated example...If you had a switch that took 100g peak force to overcome the bump but actuation was at 30g because it is a HUGE drop off...is that a heavy or light switch? 30g actuation makes it look like it would be light but 100g to even get there would be considered heavy by just about anyone. Or take it to more of an extreme..200g to overcome the bump and 30g actuation...I think the main point is when you're comparing a tactile to linear switch, you can't just look at the actuation number..you need to consider how much peak force is necessary to get over the tactile bump...
Tp4:
I'm not looking at total work. I'm merely stating a few facts.
MX Clear requires a peak force of 65g to overcome the bump. At some point, to actuate, you will need to push it 65g.
At 3mm, it is close to 80g. At 4mm it is 100g.
MX Blacks require 60g to actuate and 60g peak to reach actuation. At 3mm it is at 70g. At 4mm it is 80g.
People can come to their own conclusion.
The WRONG analysis is to say clears are 55g and blacks are 60g so therefore clears take less force. The 55g from a MX clear perspective is irrelevant as it comes after the tactile bump.
Will Linkbane admit he doesn't know what he's talking about and made a mistake? Nope..it takes a man to do that and he's still a little boy...
It requires additional force but less force than 65g.