Author Topic: Another question about mx clears  (Read 5767 times)

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Offline ValerieV

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Another question about mx clears
« on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 18:58:37 »
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 20:43:07 »
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.

If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...

I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..

Offline ValerieV

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 25 October 2013, 20:55:20 »
Okay thanks. The clears are probably not for me. Thanks for your response.

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 11:43:42 »
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.

If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...

I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..
Show Image


Are you certain that Clears are heavier than Blacks? Because I saw that Clears have a 55g actuation force.
If they are, I'm probably just going to go ahead and get a Shine 3 TKL Blue instead of getting it modded with Clears.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:01:22 »
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

So if you look at clears...they take about 65g to get over the bump.  The drop off is not that significant but it quickly gets more difficult to press down.  A lot of people actually say it helps them from bottoming out because the force required at bottom out is close to 100g whereas blacks are 80g. 

Another way you can look at it is lets say you're not bottoming out, you're going to 3mm.  With blacks you're at 70g..with clears you're just under 80g which is close to blacks at 4mm. 

You might actually enjoy them..and if not you can consider modding them to ergo clears which is probably closer to what you're probably thinking clears will be like...

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:05:34 »
Clears are not difficult to type on if you're not bottoming out.  If you're the kind of typist who punches keys with their fingers--they'll be heavier.  If you touch type, they'll be great.  There's a defined bump area, and it's easy to stop just past it, as the force to actuate is significantly higher past that point.  So they feel very cushiony without the more jarring bottoming out you'd get on Browns.  I've owned Browns, and Clears are heavier, but not MUCH heavier.  If you've used rubber dome keyboards most of your life, Clears won't be any heavier than that.  I strongly prefer stock Clears because of their special springs: light actuation, heavy bottoming out.  ergo-Clears lose that property and become wobbly to me and easy to bottom out when typing quickly.  On stock clears, I just float over the actuation points when touch typing and it feels cushiony and very satisfying.

For reference, I now have 2 keyboards with stock (meaning spring is stock) Clears (Ducky Shine II, and Filco Majestouch 2 TKL), and I'm even considering putting them into my LZ-GH now. 
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:07:39 by Photoelectric »
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Offline Linkbane

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:16:50 »
Clears are not difficult to type on if you're not bottoming out.  If you're the kind of typist who punches keys with their fingers--they'll be heavier.  If you touch type, they'll be great.  There's a defined bump area, and it's easy to stop just past it, as the force to actuate is significantly higher past that point.  So they feel very cushiony without the more jarring bottoming out you'd get on Browns.  I've owned Browns, and Clears are heavier, but not MUCH heavier.  If you've used rubber dome keyboards most of your life, Clears won't be any heavier than that.  I strongly prefer stock Clears because of their special springs: light actuation, heavy bottoming out.  ergo-Clears lose that property and become wobbly to me and easy to bottom out when typing quickly.  On stock clears, I just float over the actuation points when touch typing and it feels cushiony and very satisfying.

For reference, I now have 2 keyboards with stock (meaning spring is stock) Clears (Ducky Shine II, and Filco Majestouch 2 TKL), and I'm even considering putting them into my LZ-GH now.

Ah right, the extra force after actuation. I generally don't bottom out on Blues, but I just feel that the force might be too different when I use clicky keyboards.
Honestly, if I was able to find a Shine II/III (dream board) with Clears, I'd snap it up instantly, but I even posted on Ducky's page and got just a cryptic answer about Clears on Shine 3. I know that they have them on II's, but I can't find them at all.

Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:19:00 »
Clears are not difficult to type on if you're not bottoming out.  If you're the kind of typist who punches keys with their fingers--they'll be heavier.  If you touch type, they'll be great.  There's a defined bump area, and it's easy to stop just past it, as the force to actuate is significantly higher past that point.  So they feel very cushiony without the more jarring bottoming out you'd get on Browns.  I've owned Browns, and Clears are heavier, but not MUCH heavier.  If you've used rubber dome keyboards most of your life, Clears won't be any heavier than that.  I strongly prefer stock Clears because of their special springs: light actuation, heavy bottoming out.  ergo-Clears lose that property and become wobbly to me and easy to bottom out when typing quickly.  On stock clears, I just float over the actuation points when touch typing and it feels cushiony and very satisfying.

For reference, I now have 2 keyboards with stock (meaning spring is stock) Clears (Ducky Shine II, and Filco Majestouch 2 TKL), and I'm even considering putting them into my LZ-GH now.

Ah right, the extra force after actuation. I generally don't bottom out on Blues, but I just feel that the force might be too different when I use clicky keyboards.
Honestly, if I was able to find a Shine II/III (dream board) with Clears, I'd snap it up instantly, but I even posted on Ducky's page and got just a cryptic answer about Clears on Shine 3. I know that they have them on II's, but I can't find them at all.

Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.

he's talking about bump force...  That's also what I was talking about.. so I apologize for our inaccuracies... But yea, the Clear bump is a bit EXTREME....

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:23:36 »
Bump force is not very heavy at all.  If Browns are generally an adjustment after rubber domes in how light they are, Clears feel just right.  The springs in Clears are not the same as those in MX Blacks, and their force profiles are different.  I have and use both.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:29:56 »
Bump force is not very heavy at all.  If Browns are generally an adjustment after rubber domes in how light they are, Clears feel just right.  The springs in Clears are not the same as those in MX Blacks, and their force profiles are different.  I have and use both.

The Clears bump feel like a Shockwave traveling through your fingers.. "relative" to the other switches..

Offline giltyler

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:47:46 »
Linkbane
There is an add on eBay for a DK Shine 3 any MX color and  back light color just a little pricey though $180 plus shipping

Offline ch_123

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:47:51 »
As others have said, if you don't fully depress the key when you type on them, they aren't that stiff or tiring to type on. The same applies to Blacks too. For both switch types, I expected them to be painful to type on from people's descriptions, but found them to be quite pleasant (Clears are probably my favourite MX switch). Then again, I'm used to 65-70g buckling spring keyboards, so YMMV depending on how stiff your current keyboard is.

Offline PointyFox

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:50:00 »
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.

If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...

I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..
Show Image


If you have your wrists straight, which they should be, whether you rest your wrist or not is irrelevant to how much effort it takes to press keys.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 12:55:00 »
Linkbane
There is an add on eBay for a DK Shine 3 any MX color and  back light color just a little pricey though $180 plus shipping

Probably not stock.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 13:00:33 »
I am really torn because Leopold has a keyboard on ebay that is mx clear. I have never tried one and i was wondering...people compare them to mx browns but i heard that mx clears are harder to press. Are they as stiff as mx blacks? Also, would you say they have the same force as mx blues? I really want to try one but i just don't want to pay that much money for a keyboard that i won't like. I am starting to go thru my keyboard collection and i am trying to get rid of keyboards not buy more. However, it seems people on this website really like the clears.

If you rest your wrist while typing (most of the time).... steer clear of mx-clears unless you intend to mod them into ergo clears... they are heavier than blacks.. very demanding...

I've actually switched to 62g + black sliders... due to the cold winter, it seems harder to type consistently at speed using clears..
Show Image


If you have your wrists straight, which they should be, whether you rest your wrist or not is irrelevant to how much effort it takes to press keys.

no there is a HUGE difference...

when you rest your wrist, you use the strength and (weight) of your fingers to press the switches.

When you use the Floating wrist technique.. you use the strength and weight of your whole arm....

Which one is more powerful... + cold winter weather + I'm choosing to believe ValV may actually be female with female hands.


Offline giltyler

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 13:04:48 »
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 13:13:19 »
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing

Female vs Male piano Players HUGE difference...  "WHY"...   ARM STRENGTH...

You're right that maybe at the "highest level" the difference isn't great... but... for the bracket below highest.. the difference is pretty big..

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 13:24:17 »
Linkbane
There is an add on eBay for a DK Shine 3 any MX color and  back light color just a little pricey though $180 plus shipping

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ducky-DK9008-Shine-3-III-mechanical-keyboard-cherry-MX-CHOOSE-SWITCH-LEDs-/291003240005?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c1250e45

The picture shows only the classic four switches available, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty much used to MX Blues by now, so I'm probably just going to go ahead and get another Blue or Brown board. Thanks for the advice (and sorry for ultra thread derailment).
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Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 14:22:35 »
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing

Indeed, seeing as my long girly fingers are doing just fine with Clears and stock Blacks  :thumb:
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Offline rowdy

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 16:51:26 »
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing

Female vs Male piano Players HUGE difference...  "WHY"...   ARM STRENGTH...
Show Image


You're right that maybe at the "highest level" the difference isn't great... but... for the bracket below highest.. the difference is pretty big..

I've known lots of females at least as strong, if not stronger, than the males around them.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:06:25 »
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.

First thing is, actuation force is the amount of force at the point of actuation.  In the case of linear, that is the same.  In the case of switches with a bump (like clears, brown, blues, etc), the amount of force necessary to overcome the bump is HIGHER than the actuation force. 

I'm not doing myself any favor?  I'm speaking in facts and you're making yourself look foolish because you actually don't understand this at all. 

Actuation force is not bottom out force..never has been..never will be...

Here's a url on another site..maybe you'll understand it then..

http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide

See how there is a peak force?  Peak force is what is needed to overcome the tactile bump on the switch.  Look at the force diagram..that is what it shows..

Maybe you can't read a graph..I'm not sure....Are you really telling me you can't see how much extra force it takes to overcome the bump?  And you're telling me actuation = force necessary to get to actuation with tactile switches?

So blues, how much force would you need to use to get to actuation?  Because if you tell me 50g and you placed a 50g weight on your switch, it will never make it over that bump.  I'm not sure how else to explain it to you...sock puppets maybe?
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:11:00 by Polymer »

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:14:50 »
Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

Polymer, you aren't doing yourself any favors. Actuation force is the force required to actuate the key (i.e. to reach the point of the key in the y-axis where it registers a keypress).
You must be looking out of a dark and hairy place to interpret having 55g actuation force meaning bottom-out force.

First thing is, actuation force is the amount of force at the point of actuation.  In the case of linear, that is the same.  In the case of switches with a bump (like clears, brown, blues, etc), the amount of force necessary to overcome the bump is HIGHER than the actuation force. 

I'm not doing myself any favor?  I'm speaking in facts and you're making yourself look foolish because you actually don't understand this at all. 

Actuation force is not bottom out force..never has been..never will be...

Here's a url on another site..maybe you'll understand it then..

http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide

See how there is a peak force?  Peak force is what is needed to overcome the tactile bump on the switch.  Look at the force diagram..that is what is shows..

Maybe you can't read a graph..I'm not sure....Are you really telling me you can't see how much extra force it takes to overcome the bump?  And you're telling me actuation = force necessary to get to actuation with tactile switches?

So blues, how much force would you need to use to get to actuation?  Because if you tell me 50g and you placed a 50g weight on your switch, it will never make it over that bump.  I'm not sure how else to explain it to you...sock puppets maybe?

It's literally impossible to argue with you because every time I point out where you're wrong, you cover your posterior and say that that was what you said.

Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

In response to "Are you certain that Clears are heavier than Blacks? Because I saw that Clears have a 55g actuation force. "
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear
Right here. So please dig your head out of your posterior and argue with the authors of the article, cheers.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:19:54 »
Female or Male should not make a difference while typing

Female vs Male piano Players HUGE difference...  "WHY"...   ARM STRENGTH...
Show Image


You're right that maybe at the "highest level" the difference isn't great... but... for the bracket below highest.. the difference is pretty big..

I've known lots of females at least as strong, if not stronger, than the males around them.

exceptions.....

Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:21:01 »
It's literally impossible to argue with you because every time I point out where you're wrong, you cover your posterior and say that that was what you said.

Linkbane - Look at the force graphs...I'm not trying to be difficult but actuation force is not how much force it takes to press down...

In response to "Are you certain that Clears are heavier than Blacks? Because I saw that Clears have a 55g actuation force. "
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear
Right here. So please dig your head out of your posterior and argue with the authors of the article, cheers.

I haven't been wrong yet.  You're so extremely ignorant you still have no idea what you're talking about. 

Read your own article pls.  What is the force to overcome the bump on clears?  Says 65g.  What does 55g actuation have to do with the switch being heavy or not?  That's right, it doesn't..

A switch could take 100g to overcome the bump.  The force at actuation could be 30g.  Is that a light switch?  No it isn't..

What is so funny is that in the face of facts you shrink off rather than actually learn something.  Still not learning. 

BOOM.  HEADSHOT. 
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 19:24:20 by Polymer »

Offline ValerieV

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:28:20 »
My confusion comes from when i see a video of someone typing on the mx clears it looks so effortless but when i see someone typing on mx black, i can tell they are using more force. Either way, i am not going to get mx clear because based on what i have heard it does use more pressure than i want. I don't know how people can type on a heavy keyboard like mx black or mx clears. Don't your fingers hurt?  :confused:

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:30:58 »
I love my stock clears! I don't find them heavy at all.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:36:35 »
Link Bane is making a direct-comparison.  Actuation force vs Actuation force.

However, the conclusion, does not support the conclusion that Black switch is Heavier than the Clear switch.


Polymer is making an "extended-comparison". Actuation force (mx black) vs Peak bump-force (mx-clear-tactile)

___ 2 different forces....   this also does not support the conclusions that Clears are heavier than blacks...


We have to compare   WORK = Force x Distance..    This will be rough because the Clear graph is not very accurate given the tolerances inherent in an mx-switch, and the variability of resistance given different key strike angles.

Look at the graphs below..



Mx Clear work till actuation @ 2mm.   

(38cn + 65cn) * 1.2mm / 2  + (65cn + 55cn)* 0.8mm / 2  = 109.8cnmm

Mx Black work till actuation @ 2mm

(40cn + 60cn) * 2mm / 2 = 100cnmm


AS you can see.... the numbers are within 10% of each other....   Given how imprecise the graphs probably are... and the tolerance of the springs +/- 20%...   It is IMPOSSIBLE to say for sure which switch is heavier


The mx Clear is 2 trapazoids, the Area under the force-line is the Work
The mx Black is the single trapazoid, the Area under the force-line is the Work


MY POINT IS ....  You guys H8 each other for NO REASON AT ALL...

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:39:44 »
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you.  Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself.  I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard.  Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs. 

Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion.  They are still lighter than many rubber domes!  Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away.  Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in.  I did not like the result At All.  It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake.  Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears. 

Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy.  But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself.  Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion.  Don't repeat my mistakes :)
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:42:07 »
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you.  Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself.  I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard.  Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs. 

Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion.  They are still lighter than many rubber domes!  Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away.  Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in.  I did not like the result At All.  It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake.  Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears. 

Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy.  But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself.  Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion.  Don't repeat my mistakes :)

The work is about the SAME....  That is valid... but it's inconclusive as to EXACTLY which one is heavier.

So we could say.. they're ABOUT (exactly the same)  in terms of work required to activate the switch.

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:43:05 »
You quoted the wrong post, dood :p
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:48:26 »
You quoted the wrong post, dood :p

I say they're about the same in heaviness...

You're saying it doesn't matter....

We are now sworn enemies...

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:51:13 »
You quoted the wrong post, dood :p

I say they're about the same in heaviness...

You're saying it doesn't matter....

We are now sworn enemies...
Show Image


>.<  That's not what I was saying at all :)  You're confusing my post with the other two doods fighting amongst each other about physics and the concept of work done.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:51:39 »
I'm not even making a comparison on which is heavier and which isn't...I'm just stating specific facts.

We know that actuation force for tactile switches is not the force necessary to achieve actuation.  It is the force AT actuation.  I think Linkbane's inability to understand that is where is misunderstanding is from and why he keeps making that mistake on different threads. 

Yes, clears actuate at 55g...After you have hit 65g peak and overcome the tactile bump.  Which took more peak force to get to?  Clears....You could argue that total WORK might be close at actuation but I wasn't talking about that.  I'm merely stating the 55g actuation (for clears) is a meaningless number because it requires MORE force to hit that...You have to use more than 55g of force, you must use a minimum of 65g.  Blacks require a minimum of 60g. 

I then talked about how clears ramp up in force after actuation..basically going from 55g to 100g in 2mm.  At 3mm they're taking nearly as much force to hold down as blacks are at 4mm.  People can make their own conclusions what will be better for them or if they consider it a heavy switch....but for someone to come to that conclusion based on actuation is worthless because the number doesn't have any real meaning in this case. 

In my rather exaggerated example...If you had a switch that took 100g peak force to overcome the bump but actuation was at 30g because it is a HUGE drop off...is that a heavy or light switch?  30g actuation makes it look like it would be light but 100g to even get there would be considered heavy by just about anyone.  Or take it to more of an extreme..200g to overcome the bump and 30g actuation...I think the main point is when you're comparing a tactile to linear switch, you can't just look at the actuation number..you need to consider how much peak force is necessary to get over the tactile bump...
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:54:13 by Polymer »

Offline Pacifist

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:51:49 »
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you.  Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself.  I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard.  Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs. 

Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion.  They are still lighter than many rubber domes!  Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away.  Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in.  I did not like the result At All.  It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake.  Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears. 

Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy.  But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself.  Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion.  Don't repeat my mistakes :)

Isn't buying any switch and pretty much everything up to personal preference?

Offline swill

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 20:56:48 »
No, you can't make any conclusions based on what others tell you.  Its going to be a personal decision for you when you use those switches yourself.  I can tell you though that I started out with Browns, as they were recommended as a starting switch, and they are very light--lighter than your average rubber dome keyboard.  Having read all the 'Blacks are heavy' and 'ergo-Clears are just right' posts, I formed a mistaken belief that Blacks were to be avoided, and if I ever got Clears, Id mod them with light springs. 

Well, I ended up trying MX Blacks owned by an acquaintance, and they are not nearly as heavy as you'd imagine from various posts propagating that notion.  They are still lighter than many rubber domes!  Then I got a batch of Clears to mod one of my Filcos and ordered light springs to go with them right away.  Without even really trying them stock--just because of all those posts--I changed them to ergo-Clears and soldered them in.  I did not like the result At All.  It was not until I got a limited edition Ducky with Clears for my OH when I realized I had made a mistake.  Stock Clears turned out to be not very heavy for light touch-typing and felt great, and my Filco got swapped to stock Clears. 

Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy.  But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself.  Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion.  Don't repeat my mistakes :)

Isn't buying any switch and pretty much everything up to personal preference?

He has experience and a relevant opinion.  And yes, that is my opinion...

Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:00:37 »
Again, I don't like the idea of heavy switches, but Blacks and Clears are far from heavy.  But you need to try them for a week yourself before you can decide one way or another for yourself.  Don't read what you see other people say about their favorite or not so favorite switches and instead make your own conclusion.  Don't repeat my mistakes :)

I agree..this is why I was stating facts about the switch..it could be for a lot of people, they like clears....the 65g peak isn't too much..the force necessary to keep pushing the switch actually keeps them from bottoming out...for a lot of people this might be quite ideal. 

But making a decision purely on a number like actuation force is pretty useless for tactile switches because it doesn't provide any context.  For linear it'll have more meaning but tactile they don't because it really isn't an important number...it actuates during the drop off from the bump..what is really the relative number?  The tactile bump because that'll be what people need to overcome...

It is like comparing browns and reds...to get to actuation you'd need to get to 55g of force at some point...for reds it is 45g.  They're both 45g AT actuation but one would require 55g to get there..one only requires 45g. 

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:06:28 »
I found force graphs helpful, but to a point.  Actually feeling a switch yourself makes a big difference, especially when typing at ~100 words per minute.  All the subtleties of a force curve will smooth out due to the quick strokes, and you just need to see how you like typing on each switch.  I don't have a favorite switch--I like a number of different switches, and I'm currently typing this on stock vintage MX Blacks.  I no longer favor Browns above all others, and I most definitely hate most rubber domes I come in contact with, but none of the Cherry switches I've tried so far have been "too heavy" at stock.  I imagine I will find both types of Grays undeniably heavy, and probably won't like Greens too much, as I think Blues are as heavy as I want to go with a snap-bump.  But that comes from experiencing lots of different switch variations.  I would not have been able to say this without actually trying them out, and I'm a person who likes to read a lot of reviews before buying.  In this instance, reviews only go so far.

P.S.: I should add: the purpose of your keyboard also makes a big difference.  If you're going to type 8 hours a day, it's even more important to pick the right switch for You.  If you're going to be using that keyboard for forum post typing, sending e-mails, and playing games at home--it doesn't matter as much and many switch types will do.  I'd probably advocate linear switches for games if you like spamming your keys, but again, that's just my personal conclusion.
« Last Edit: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:19:33 by Photoelectric »
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #37 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:12:34 »
There is no doubt that using them yourself is the best way to find out if it is the right switch for you...and really the details like a force graph are only really helpful when you have something to compare it to...

For example, if you haven't used any Cherry MX switch than it is all meaningless...if you've used one and it is great for you it might be hard to tell as well..

But if you've used many different ones already..you can get a pretty good idea of what it may feel like based on the information given.  It isn't a guarantee but you can get a relatively good idea....

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 27 October 2013, 21:47:20 »
I'm not even making a comparison on which is heavier and which isn't...I'm just stating specific facts.

We know that actuation force for tactile switches is not the force necessary to achieve actuation.  It is the force AT actuation.  I think Linkbane's inability to understand that is where is misunderstanding is from and why he keeps making that mistake on different threads. 

Yes, clears actuate at 55g...After you have hit 65g peak and overcome the tactile bump.  Which took more peak force to get to?  Clears....You could argue that total WORK might be close at actuation but I wasn't talking about that.  I'm merely stating the 55g actuation (for clears) is a meaningless number because it requires MORE force to hit that...You have to use more than 55g of force, you must use a minimum of 65g.  Blacks require a minimum of 60g. 

I then talked about how clears ramp up in force after actuation..basically going from 55g to 100g in 2mm.  At 3mm they're taking nearly as much force to hold down as blacks are at 4mm.  People can make their own conclusions what will be better for them or if they consider it a heavy switch....but for someone to come to that conclusion based on actuation is worthless because the number doesn't have any real meaning in this case. 

In my rather exaggerated example...If you had a switch that took 100g peak force to overcome the bump but actuation was at 30g because it is a HUGE drop off...is that a heavy or light switch?  30g actuation makes it look like it would be light but 100g to even get there would be considered heavy by just about anyone.  Or take it to more of an extreme..200g to overcome the bump and 30g actuation...I think the main point is when you're comparing a tactile to linear switch, you can't just look at the actuation number..you need to consider how much peak force is necessary to get over the tactile bump...

Polymer.. The reason it is not useful to go into  these exaggerated corner example is because it amounts to saying "WHAT IF WE MADE LIFE REALLY $***TY ON PURPOSE"  will it be $***ty then?

Well.. of course it would be $***ty... but we would never do that..

We HAVE what we HAVE..

And as is... the work is ~equivalent.... Therefore the mx clear and mx black are equivalent in "actuation-requirements"...





Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 01:35:46 »
Tp4: 

I'm not looking at total work.  I'm merely stating a few facts.

MX Clear requires a peak force of 65g to overcome the bump.  At some point, to actuate, you will need to push it 65g. 

At 3mm, it is close to 80g.  At 4mm it is 100g.

MX Blacks require 60g to actuate and 60g peak to reach actuation.  At 3mm it is at 70g. At 4mm it is 80g. 

People can come to their own conclusion.

The WRONG analysis is to say clears are 55g and blacks are 60g so therefore clears take less force. The 55g from a MX clear perspective is irrelevant as it comes after the tactile bump. 

Will Linkbane admit he doesn't know what he's talking about and made a mistake?  Nope..it takes a man to do that and he's still a little boy...
« Last Edit: Mon, 28 October 2013, 01:39:27 by Polymer »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 02:27:24 »
Tp4: 

I'm not looking at total work.  I'm merely stating a few facts.

MX Clear requires a peak force of 65g to overcome the bump.  At some point, to actuate, you will need to push it 65g. 

At 3mm, it is close to 80g.  At 4mm it is 100g.

MX Blacks require 60g to actuate and 60g peak to reach actuation.  At 3mm it is at 70g. At 4mm it is 80g. 

People can come to their own conclusion.

The WRONG analysis is to say clears are 55g and blacks are 60g so therefore clears take less force. The 55g from a MX clear perspective is irrelevant as it comes after the tactile bump. 

Will Linkbane admit he doesn't know what he's talking about and made a mistake?  Nope..it takes a man to do that and he's still a little boy...

Polymer, you and Linkbane need to kiss and make up ...

Neither of you are wrong...

He compared 2 points @ 2mm travel.

You compared 1 point @ 1.2mm (clear-bump-force) to another point @ 2mm (black-actuation force)

You're making the claim that 65 peak bump force is representative of the clear switch.. this is not wrong.. it is incomplete

because the clear, needs more than simply overcoming the 65cn @ 1.2mm.. it requires more force on the rest of the 0.8mm left of travel up to 2mm in order to activate the switch...

It would be fine to compare red to black in your way, using only 2 points.. but this does fully describe the situation when comparing linear to tactile..


Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 02:30:00 »
It requires additional force but less force than 65g. 

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 02:33:05 »
It requires additional force but less force than 65g. 

LOL.. okokok.... let's let this go... and everyone get back to happy place..

Offline Polymer

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Re: Another question about mx clears
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 28 October 2013, 09:43:44 »
I think you mean it is right to compare blacks to red using just force at actuation.

You can't compare Tactile to Linear comparing force at actuation because that isn't the force necessary to get the switch TO actuation. 

The peak force necessary is the force necessary to overcome the bump..it is the peak use of force needed to get to actuation. 

Is that relevant?  I think it is...it certain is a better reflection of what is needed on a tactile switch than actuation force..which is meaningless.

And while my exaggerated example is not a realistic one..it demonstrates that key point..which is the force necessary to overcome the tactile bump is more relevant to tactile switches than actuation force. 

But just for fun...take this a step further..we'll go with your total amount of work..10% is 10%.  20% tolerance means our average should still retain a 10% difference in numbers right?  So while not every switch will take more work, on average they will.  But who cares about that cause no one actually stops right at actuation....People are going to stop after that right?  So what is the added force to go to 3mm?  Or total work?  Clears are almost 20% more work to go from 2mm to 3mm.   Or if you don't want to look at work....Clears are close to 80g at 3mm. vs. Blacks at 70g. 

But one might say, the added force may keep them from bottoming out or help train them..sure..it might..so while I'm not saying Clears will be worse off for someone that doesn't want a heavier switch, it is very much in that arena of a heavier switch.  It certainly isn't lighter than blacks because actuation is 55g vs. 60g as I'm clearly showing actuation, when it comes to Tactile, is not a significant number compared to the peak force to get over the bump so quoting actuation for tactile pretty much shows that someone doesn't understand what it is they're actually looking at.