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geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: Monster-Toys on Mon, 17 March 2014, 04:30:22

Title: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Mon, 17 March 2014, 04:30:22: This will be my first attempt to refurbish a Keyboard and i want to document my approach (i hope this is the right board), not least to call for help anytime i will get stuck :-[.

This is my starting point:
[attachimg=1]

I want to restore the Kish almost to original state. Differences will be a modified german QWERTZ layout and a paracord USB cable (replaceable with the original cable) but with original (USB-modded) connector (if i will be able to get one that is not splintered ... if you want to get rid of yours, PM me :) ).

Todo list

- powdercoat or repaint the shell
- prepare the shell
- flatten the shell
- remove old Paint
- maybe some filling
- derust barrel plate (and rust prevention)
- remove paint and rust
- fertan rust converter
- repaint
- felt-top
- make converter or wait for new controller to repair any problems with the switches. (I will need much help with this probably, i am a very noob. I have no teensy but an arduino mega... will i be able to build Hasus converter with it?)
- mod connector (if a can get one) to USB
- design some keycaps and let them print by Unicomp. I want some special keys (no " but » and « and a … on . etc. need those a lot for writing)
- new label (wcass made one for me, just need to add this small white IBM Sticker :) ).
- ...

My Kish has a not so small dent in the backplate and the whole plate was pushed inwards. Deepest point was 3 mm from normal. So i did this over night without hoping for much success:
[attachimg=2]
But it worked very well! It is now nearly as it should be and the deepest point is around half a mm. That is very good news because i maybe do not have to do any filling (that would make powdercoating at least more complex).
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 17 March 2014, 06:32:02: Quote from: Monster-Toys on Mon, 17 March 2014, 04:30:22

This will be my first attempt to refurbish a Keyboard

Very ambitious!

What a way to start!
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:16:40: Quote from: fohat.digs on Mon, 17 March 2014, 06:32:02
Very ambitious!

What a way to start!

Should not be harder than other keyboards. Also i want it to become the keyboard i will write my next novel with and so i cannot wait forever^^.

Today i send an email to a powdercoater near to my flat (could reach it by foot), hope he will do the shell (and that it will not be very expensive).

I also disassembled the kish. That was more easy than i thought it would be. The foam rubber pad disintegratet but i expected this. I will make a new one. Any suggetiones how thick the foam rubber should be?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]

I sanded the barrel plate. There are more rust spots than i thought but nothing some rust converter cannot handle (i hope).
[attachimg=3]

I am thinking of doing a bolt mod. There are holes in the PCB already.
[attachimg=4]

To make this mod i would need to drill into some of the barrels (at the edge), like this:
[attachimg=5]

I do not know if it would make any sense to do it.

Now i have to wait for some material (rust converter, paint remover, rubber foam) to continue.

P.S.: I also removed the label. It will get a place somewhere in the guts of the board. The breadboard-hull is only for save storage.
[attachimg=6]
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:40:24: Fohat.digs (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0) says he uses a foam sheet from an art supply store. Not too sure of the thickness but perhaps you can ask him or just take the mat with you and find a similar thickness.

Also, what types of novels do you write?
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:42:53: I want to see this :)

I did notice my kishsaver bottom is dented in just a bit as well. Surprisingly, as I had originally thought, my plate has no rust and the foam sheet came off perfectly.

This is also the first keyboard I am going to restore lol, what a board to start on. :thumb:

Good luck!

EDIT: My PCB doesn't have holes in it afaik ._.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Michael on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:53:59: I am holding off to find a shop to sand blast the paint off the case, as well as bead blast the barrel plate. I plan to powder coat both the case and the plate.

Just waiting to find a shop at this point.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:57:46: Brocaps, if you do find a powdercoater you like, please let me know. I know that mkawa has one lined up but I haven't asked if they'd be willing to work with us.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:03:00: The website for the place I was going to use for powder coating hasn't been up for weeks now, I really hope they didn't shut down :/

There should be a couple more places around here though, but that place seemed like it was going to be the best.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Michael on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:06:18: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:57:46
Brocaps, if you do find a powdercoater you like, please let me know. I know that mkawa has one lined up but I haven't asked if they'd be willing to work with us.

Yeah, I have been just looking at local shops recently. I will see what I come up with and let you know.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: JPG on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:10:31: Quote from: Bro Caps on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:06:18
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:57:46
Brocaps, if you do find a powdercoater you like, please let me know. I know that mkawa has one lined up but I haven't asked if they'd be willing to work with us.

Yeah, I have been just looking at local shops recently. I will see what I come up with and let you know.

You will definitely need a Brobot to protect your Kishsaver! ;)
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Michael on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:11:36: Quote from: JPG on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:10:31
Quote from: Bro Caps on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:06:18
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:57:46
Brocaps, if you do find a powdercoater you like, please let me know. I know that mkawa has one lined up but I haven't asked if they'd be willing to work with us.

Yeah, I have been just looking at local shops recently. I will see what I come up with and let you know.

You will definitely need a Brobot to protect your Kishsaver! ;)

Nah, just an army of Zombies :P
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: JPG on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:14:42: Quote from: Bro Caps on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:11:36
Quote from: JPG on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:10:31
Quote from: Bro Caps on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:06:18
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:57:46
Brocaps, if you do find a powdercoater you like, please let me know. I know that mkawa has one lined up but I haven't asked if they'd be willing to work with us.

Yeah, I have been just looking at local shops recently. I will see what I come up with and let you know.

You will definitely need a Brobot to protect your Kishsaver! ;)

Nah, just an army of Zombies :p

Will work too. If you need it, I could test one on my F122 just to make sure they are good at keeping coworkers away!
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:41:54: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:40:24
Fohat.digs (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37753.0) says he uses a foam sheet from an art supply store. Not too sure of the thickness but perhaps you can ask him or just take the mat with you and find a similar thickness.

Here in Germany one can buy "Moosgummi", that should be the right stuff. It is not expensive so maybe i will order different thiknesses and try it out.
I know fohat.digs thread (it is a great help and inspiration).

Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:40:24
Also, what types of novels do you write?

Until now i wrote horror but i will eventually try some all age urban fantasy stuff soon, too. I have published a novel and some short stories here in germany but i am far faaaaar away from beeing well-known (or even known^^).

Quote from: Bro Caps on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:53:59
I am holding off to find a shop to sand blast the paint off the case, as well as bead blast the barrel plate. I plan to powder coat both the case and the plate.

Wcass told me he used chemical paint stripper on the case. It is eventually made of a Zinc-Aluminum blend (Zamak) so one have to choose a paint stripper that is aluminium safe. (Thx for this info wcass :) ). I do not know if sandblasting will eventually damage the case so i will use paint stripper, too. I did not used it at the barrel plate because of the plastic stabelizer holder (i maybe will change them for selfmade metal ones someday but this is low priority).

Quote from: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:42:53
I did notice my kishsaver bottom is dented in just a bit as well. Surprisingly, as I had originally thought, my plate has no rust and the foam sheet came off perfectly.

The problem with the dent is, that one cannot use filler for powdercoating (there are some filler that should be usable but i was not able to find information on how well they work) so i had/have to find a solution to minimize it mechanical.

Quote from: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:42:53
This is also the first keyboard I am going to restore lol, what a board to start on. :thumb:
Good luck!

Good luck to you, too :)

Quote from: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:42:53
EDIT: My PCB doesn't have holes in it afaik ._.

Strange. When was your kish manufactured?
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:58:23: Sticker says it was made 30-1983

Yep, no holes.
(http://i.imgur.com/NMElgBu.jpg?1?8006)
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:35:02: Quote from: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:41:54
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:40:24
Also, what types of novels do you write?

Until now i wrote horror but i will eventually try some all age urban fantasy stuff soon, too. I have published a novel and some short stories here in germany but i am far faaaaar away from beeing well-known (or even known^^).

That's really cool. I'd like to publish something one day; I think it's cool that there's quite a few writers on GeekHack. :)
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: mashby on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:02:15: I haven't begun taking mine apart, so this is a real treat to see how everyone else is doing it. Thank you for posting your progress.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:41:06: Quote from: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:58:23
Sticker says it was made 30-1983

Yep, no holes.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/NMElgBu.jpg?1?8006)

Mine is 29-1983, only one week apart. There are some other differences beside the holes. I am a total noob regarding electronics so please be clement with my poor description: In your PCB the conductive parts are upside down compared to mine. The stuff on the front has this brass-look whilest the cunductive lines at the bottom that are shining through are much darker... with mine it is the other way round. I do not know if this means anything.^^ Mine does not have those small (holes? dots? ... made red circles around them). Also, even when considering different light and camera etc. your PCB seems to have a different colour.
[attachimg=1]
fascinating^^

Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:35:02
That's really cool. I'd like to publish something one day; I think it's cool that there's quite a few writers on GeekHack. :)

What do you write?
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:45:01: Quote from: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:41:06
Quote from: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:35:02
That's really cool. I'd like to publish something one day; I think it's cool that there's quite a few writers on GeekHack. :)

What do you write?

I'm a complete amateur, so nothing special. I'm just really into writing as a hobby. I've not published anything. Just been dabbling in writing some nonfiction stuff. Trying to finish a sci-fi short story and start a blog right now. I'm more admiring the fact that people write for a living. I think I'd enjoy the career change. Sorry for the off topic. Don't let my side topic detract from your refurbishing. I'm interested in that as well since I'm looking to fix up my own 6019284 :D.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Parak on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:53:02: Quote from: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 10:58:23
Sticker says it was made 30-1983

Yep, no holes.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/NMElgBu.jpg?1?8006)

Those are vias leading to some test pads on the side...? Kinda unusual. Most capacitive pcb designs that IBM did were via free, and only had one test pad. Then again, I've yet to open up and clean my 4704 boards (so lazy), and these may be more common than expected. Can you post high resolution photos of both sides of the PCB?
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: HPE1000 on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:54:58: They might, mine is a shade of green, but sometimes comes across as more blue in some pictures. It isn't as bright as your pcb for sure though.

(http://i.imgur.com/m0rJiBA.jpg)

Next to something white:
(http://i.imgur.com/ikgIBcB.jpg)
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:57:29: I do not write for a living as well.

I looked at the other PCBs ... mine is strange (but they all seem to have at least little differences?). :confused:

BTW... can one build Hasus converter with a Arduino Mega (i do not have a teensy)? Or even better: can someone build me a converter (or maybe write a noob tutorial)... as said, i am not good with electronic stuff. I can solder a little bit but i have never used a mc-board before :-[ and i should test if my kish is in working condition *fingers crossed* before i spent much money on powder coating.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:59:58: Quote from: Monster-Toys on Tue, 18 March 2014, 13:57:29
BTW... can one build Hasus converter with a Arduino Mega (i do not have a teensy)? Or even better: can someone build me a converter (or maybe write a noob tutorial)... as said, i am not good with electronic stuff. I can solder a little bit but i have never used a mc-board before :-[ and i should test if my kish is in working condition *fingers crossed* before i spent much money on powder coating.

I was going to try Hasu's converter pending jdcarpe and dorkvader tried it first. Hasu's tutorial was a bit over my head as well. If I can get a simplistic explanation, I will post it.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Sat, 22 March 2014, 07:11:31: New foam rubber pad is ready. I used 3mm "Moosgummi", marked the centers of the holes with pins (had no white paint^^) using a paper circle as positioning device then used a cutting circle to cut them out. After that i marked the notches (is this the right word?) and cut them out with nail scissors. (In the photos it looks more scruffy than it actually is).

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Game Theory on Sat, 22 March 2014, 08:05:41: For others: leather punches also work well for the barrel holes. I used two different size punches for each barrel. To maker them I attached the mat replacement to the plate's underside and spray painted the top of the plate (it had been de-rusted and needed repainting anyway). Then I punched the color away from the mat replacement.

Also you can use a silicone rubber sheet instead of the foam if you prefer it conceptually for some reason. I got a silicone sheet from Grainer for a non-Kishsaver:
http://www.grainger.com/search/rubber-sheets-and-strips/raw-materials/ecatalog/N-c1z/Ntt-silicone+rubber?sst=subset#nav=%2Fsearch%2Frubber-sheets-and-strips%2Frubber%2Fraw-materials%2Fecatalog%2FN-c1zZ1z0ntx2Z1z0a0xkZ1z0o3wgZ1z0nh0yZ1z0nao6%2FNtt-silicone%2Brubber%3F_%3D1395493299621%26sst%3Dsubset
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: snoopy on Sat, 22 March 2014, 08:40:10: Just found this thread. :)

Very nice read. Will use that later as inspiration for my own Kishsavers.

Keep up your great work! :D
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 22 March 2014, 09:01:35: I don't think anyone addressed OP's question about bolt modding. I don't have a Kishsaver, but I have worked on an F-122. Since yours seem to have the same sort of clips to hold the plates together, I wouldn't recommend trying to drill the barrels like that. If anything goes wrong, it's going to be a tall order to find replacements.

Because of the metal plate clip system, with your new foam mat in place, it should fit together nice and snug. That was my experience with the F-122.

I know people like to bolt mod Model Ms as a labor of love, but it's really only necessary on deteriorated Model Ms because of the loss of plastic rivets holding it together.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: samwisekoi on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:11:25: Rats. Another IBM keyboard I must find and Teensy. Great.

Actually, thanks very much. These look very cool.

- Ron | samwisekoi

p.s. None to be found on eBay (naturally) but while looking, I did run across the replacement keyboard for the IBM PCjr. Not the chiclet original, but the IBM E82144 as seen here:

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102642101

Nice keycaps; interesting layout. Does anyone know what kind of switches it has?
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: HPE1000 on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:24:11: Quote from: samwisekoi on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:11:25
Rats. Another IBM keyboard I must find and Teensy. Great.

Actually, thanks very much. These look very cool.

- Ron | samwisekoi

p.s. None to be found on eBay (naturally) but while looking, I did run across the replacement keyboard for the IBM PCjr. Not the chiclet original, but the IBM E82144 as seen here:

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102642101

Nice keycaps; interesting layout. Does anyone know what kind of switches it has?
AFAIK all of them have rubber domes. :/
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: jdcarpe on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:33:47: Quote from: samwisekoi on Sat, 22 March 2014, 10:11:25
Rats. Another IBM keyboard I must find and Teensy. Great.

Actually, thanks very much. These look very cool.

- Ron | samwisekoi

p.s. None to be found on eBay (naturally) but while looking, I did run across the replacement keyboard for the IBM PCjr. Not the chiclet original, but the IBM E82144 as seen here:

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102642101

Nice keycaps; interesting layout. Does anyone know what kind of switches it has?

If that's the IR keyboard for the PCjr, I have one you can have for free if you want it. Yes, it has rubber domes.
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Monster-Toys on Sat, 22 March 2014, 14:40:54: Quote from: Techno Trousers on Sat, 22 March 2014, 09:01:35
I wouldn't recommend trying to drill the barrels like that. If anything goes wrong, it's going to be a tall order to find replacements.

I have a spare model f, i would not consider trying it else

Quote from: Techno Trousers on Sat, 22 March 2014, 09:01:35
Because of the metal plate clip system, with your new foam mat in place, it should fit together nice and snug. That was my experience with the F-122.

it does and indeed it would make not a big difference i think (most likely it will not even make a small difference). The only reason would be:
Quote from: Techno Trousers on Sat, 22 March 2014, 09:01:35
I know people like to bolt mod Model Ms as a labor of love

But i am unsure (especially because it is not reversible).
Title: Re: Kishsaver refurbish thread
Post by: Parak on Sat, 22 March 2014, 14:50:52: Bolt modding should not be needed for such a small board. A 122 is a slightly different matter, but in both cases it's the foam that should be taking care of the small differences in plate spacing. Barrels are supposed to be firm and without wobble in every axis, and a bolt mod might help if a particular cluster of them is not.