I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?
Control and enter placement is why I love it so much.
Control and enter placement is why I love it so much.
Don't forget that backspace!
Control and backspace placement is why I love it so much.
I was fearful of the HHKB layout, but so many people raved about the keyboard, I finally gave it a try. I was amazed at how quickly I adapted, and now, I remap all my keyboards to the HHKB layout. Prof. Wada researched this quite carefully in coming up with the design, and he seems to have come up with something fundamentally efficient and intuitive.
First, I find it quite efficient to have Backspace/Delete immediately above the Return/Enter key. Second, I really like to convert CapsLock to Control. Next, I prefer the HHKB cursor diamond to any other arrow key placement I have tried. Finally, the placement of the Fn key is ideal. The standard Right Shift is far too wide, and it makes sense to reduce this to 1.75x and to put a 1.00x Fn key to the right of Right Shift.
Now, I can't imagine going back to anything other than a HHKB layout on any keyboard that I use.
Being able to modify the mapping however you like is also very nice, since you can change your mind or create different mappings for different purposes...Hasu has made replacement HHKB controllers, so he could modify the key mapping: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047
It's really down to subjective preference with layouts, since we are all wired differently, and one man's ergonomic dream could be another's nightmare. Some of you might look at my layout and say, "WTF?!" :))I think your layout looks pretty arbitrary and hard to learn, but do whatever works for you. Anyway, none of these standardish-layout keyboards are anyone’s “ergonomic dream”.
I don't get it.Seems to be a pattern. Don’t worry about it.
If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).
I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?
Seriously. I am trying to understand how that would make it easier to do things that way. It looks very difficult to work with.I don't get it.Seems to be a pattern. Don’t worry about it.
Less is more? It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
I don't get it.
Rightl I could see it for writing. If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that. It would be excellent otherwise.Less is more? It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
I don't get it.
yeah, like for people like me who mostly game and write, 60% is a perfect size and frees up a bunch of desk space. and having the nice fn layer of the HHKB is all the more usefulRightl I could see it for writing. If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that. It would be excellent otherwise.Less is more? It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
I don't get it.
If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).
That doesn't happen though. How often are you hitting \ instead of enter? How often are you hitting enter when you intend to hit \? You don't..Or when you tab, are you hitting caps lock?
I do like your use of IJKL for the arrow keys and the FN layer..that is where I'd put it..just makes sense to use FN on your left hand and not have to move anywhere to do arrow keys....but I can see the logic in the way it is for the HHKB as well..
Hasu has made replacement HHKB controllers, so he could modify the key mapping: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047
Rightl I could see it for writing. If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that. It would be excellent otherwise.
Just use a HHKB for a month, and you will find out why its layout is the best. If you don't like it, you can always sell it.
Just use a HHKB for amonthweek, and you will find out why its layout is the best.
Just use a HHKB for a month, and you will find out why its layout is the best. If you don't like it, you can always sell it.
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
And I flat out hate the diamond arrow cluster (although I find HJKL even worse) and edit key placement, probably because I'm too used to an inverted T arrangement after 30 or so years of using normal layout boards.The diamond is probably better w/r/t reaction time / efficiency, considering it uses a different finger for each direction, but it does require a bit of an uncomfortable hand contortion. It would be better to use J for left, I for up, O for right, and spacebar for down, assuming a Fn key on the left hand (or in a column stagger board, J-K-L-space). It’s a bit unfortunate that the ring + middle fingers don’t have as much independent flexibility as one of them + index finger, one of them + thumb, or thumb + index finger does†. As such, the ideal would probably be to have the ring and middle finger be used for left and right, the index finger be used for up, and the thumb used for down (based on the assumption that it’s typically more useful to press two adjacent direction keys than two opposite direction keys in quick succession; there may be contexts where that’s a bad assumption). Or if you really want to get fancy, and you care about efficient arrow navigation to the exclusion of any other considerations, use two fingers on one hand for left/right, and two fingers on the other hand for up/down.
(http://i.imgur.com/VkU5BXW.png)it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
music thingThat UI looks pretty horrendous, but since, after looking at it, I still don’t have any idea what "tracking" might be, I’ll reserve judgment.
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
I thought this was common knowledge.... the HHKB is pretty terrible for hunting deer in the forest. Hard to find footprints with your finger on the FN key. Also the extra keypress is another sound to scare the unsuspecting prey off.it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker
Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.
I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene.
to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker
Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.
I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene.
and more ACCURATELY, not all trackers use hexadecimal. Sunvox is a perfect example of a tracker that uses entirely decimal, and that's fairly popular as software unidirectional modular synthesis is implemented almost entirely in trackers and JACK/ReWire applications, meaning it looks like one of the only options for soft modular synthesis available to someone who doesn't know how to use ReWire or JACK.
I believe is hard to make product which will please everyone. :cool:
Sadly to say I have similar issue with right FN+K, I use left "FN" then to sort this out (this spare window command key, but well...)
That was the best win for Fc660c for me, fn+arrow to rule them all in meaning for End, Home etc.
Then Leo had other "issues" which put me back.
Anyway ad rem, for me, typing on HHKB is just pure fun.
The "dancing" layout, the movement, the dynamic, the typing sound. This small keyb is just full of it.
For me, typing on 87u for example is like sitting on limo back seat, you feel the mass, pleasure, stability and control.
Typing on HHKB is like going to drift in porsche gt...
My problem with the HHKB layout is that I do a lot of text editing (programming, emails...), and that I use the navigation cluster a lot and extensively.You must have very small hands indeed. I do not consider my hands large, but with a bit of a stretch, I can reach the G key with my index finger while my little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift key, and I can comfortably reach the H key. The K key is definitely no problem. I suppose if your hands are so small that you cannot reach the K key with your index finger while your little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift, then the HHKB layout would not be for you.
In particular, I use Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn, and I also use quite often combinations like Shift-Home, Shift-End, Ctrl-Home and Ctrl-End.
For me, the problem is that on the HHKB Home is done with Fn+K. Try this: put your pinky on the far right side of the right Shift key and extend your index finger to the K key.
If, like me, you do not have large hands, you will notice two things:
- You extend your hand in a very uncomfortable way.
- You need to bend your wrist.
Reaching End is a little less difficult, but is still not easy.
For me, these are deal breakers. This is putting too much stress on the hand, at least on mine. It would probably be less difficult if I had bigger hands, but what can I do?
When I use my HHKB, I use it either with the SpaceFN layout or with the GuiFN layout. I reprogram the Fn key to be a Ctrl key (note: you cannot do that in software - my HHKB has a dedicated hardware controller inside that allows me to do it, if you do not have it the Fn key is basically a dead key).
My problem with the HHKB layout is that I do a lot of text editing (programming, emails...), and that I use the navigation cluster a lot and extensively.You must have very small hands indeed. I do not consider my hands large, but with a bit of a stretch, I can reach the G key with my index finger while my little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift key, and I can comfortably reach the H key. The K key is definitely no problem. I suppose if your hands are so small that you cannot reach the K key with your index finger while your little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift, then the HHKB layout would not be for you.
In particular, I use Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn, and I also use quite often combinations like Shift-Home, Shift-End, Ctrl-Home and Ctrl-End.
For me, the problem is that on the HHKB Home is done with Fn+K. Try this: put your pinky on the far right side of the right Shift key and extend your index finger to the K key.
If, like me, you do not have large hands, you will notice two things:
- You extend your hand in a very uncomfortable way.
- You need to bend your wrist.
Reaching End is a little less difficult, but is still not easy.
For me, these are deal breakers. This is putting too much stress on the hand, at least on mine. It would probably be less difficult if I had bigger hands, but what can I do?
When I use my HHKB, I use it either with the SpaceFN layout or with the GuiFN layout. I reprogram the Fn key to be a Ctrl key (note: you cannot do that in software - my HHKB has a dedicated hardware controller inside that allows me to do it, if you do not have it the Fn key is basically a dead key).
@spiceBar: This is very interesting. Designers of keyboards and keyboard layouts should take note!
It's purely an impression. I'm much faster on a Realforce 87U for any productivity task than on the HHKB.
If the HHKB is a sports car, it's an underpowered, slow one.
It's purely an impression. I'm much faster on a Realforce 87U for any productivity task than on the HHKB.
If the HHKB is a sports car, it's an underpowered, slow one.
Hmm, so basically you are faster on a much bigger keyboard, that will probably force your small right hand to constantly abandon 'home row' to reach keys like del, home, end and arrows etc.
Well, for me as a coder, this is working in precisely opposite direction, but as you already concluded, it's purely an impression...Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/8Yt8Sm4.jpg)
to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for trackingWhat in the world is 'tracking'?
It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker
Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.
I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene.
and more ACCURATELY, not all trackers use hexadecimal. Sunvox is a perfect example of a tracker that uses entirely decimal, and that's fairly popular as software unidirectional modular synthesis is implemented almost entirely in trackers and JACK/ReWire applications, meaning it looks like one of the only options for soft modular synthesis available to someone who doesn't know how to use ReWire or JACK.
I've used SunVox on iOS and Android, but not on a desktop computer. I like some of the synths in it, and it's fun to play with, but for more serious work such as composing a complex orchestral score, I have to use a more conventional DAW, if only because that's the industry standard in pro audio.
If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).
That doesn't happen though. How often are you hitting \ instead of enter? How often are you hitting enter when you intend to hit \? You don't..Or when you tab, are you hitting caps lock?
I do like your use of IJKL for the arrow keys and the FN layer..that is where I'd put it..just makes sense to use FN on your left hand and not have to move anywhere to do arrow keys....but I can see the logic in the way it is for the HHKB as well..
I can't tell you how many times I have sent someone a message that went along the lines of "Hey can you help me with this\"I think this is mainly a problem with people coming from an ISO or L-shaped-enter layout.
However, when coding, the navigation cluster of a TKL is still more comfortable for me.
I guess it has to do with the extra mental work of thinking about the keyboard layout. It disturbs me, and eventually the economy of movements does not translate to more productivity for me.
In any case, there is nothing I find superior about the HHKB over for example the Poker X or Poker 2 or the FC660C.
The default layout is difficult for me to use because of the Fn-K problem, and this thread is specifically about the HHKB layout. I think I have explained why I don't like it.
"Conventional" (pianoroll-sequencer) DAWs only became the standard recently because nobody wanted to learn how to use a tracker. The main downsides are that they are a slave to the mouse (therefore much slower than trackers) and you generally can't see the notes of more than one channel at once. The only upside that they have on trackers is that they are generally easier to learn. What would take a proficient pianoroll-sequencer user an hour generally takes me 10 minutes in a tracker. Coming back to the hhkb, those speed gains would be lost by needing to use FN to access the arrow keys and insert.
also, just because I don't want to drop the sunvox thingMoresunvox on ios and android is for people who use trackers already and are in a situation where they cannot access their PC anymore. It is, by far, the most inferior version of the tracker, but it's not meant to be good. It's meant to give people stuck on mobile something other than MilkyTracker, which is an exact clone of FTII (which, by the way, was released in the 90's). It is for people like my close friend who originally showed me Renoise and Sunvox (famitracker was my first tracker but I thought it was the only tracker for a long time), he's bedridden by "something" causing extreme fatigue, along with early-onset arthritis in a fair amount of his joints. Don't reply to anything about him if you quote this.
they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker.
I don't think the fn layer is that fantastic...on the plus side, it is designed to be used strictly with just one hand (right) and the placement of the arrows, etc, make sense if you're using the fn with your right pinky...It is a good layout but isn't perfect...
I can't exactly go to my composer colleagues and ask for tips, since none of them are using trackers--they are all using industry standard DAW. And since most tracker users aren't professional composers doing orchestral scores (it's mostly used for electronic music), they won't be able to help with specific issues I would need help with, such as running into problems when using high-end orchestral libraries inside a tracker.
False, botb (a loose chipscene community [...]) is full of people that and more.
yeah, I'm sorry for derailing the thread and such, I can't let utterly false things be said about my hobby and job. Go back to talking about the hhkb, I've already said what I wanted to about this and ask that lunatique pursues me by PM if he has any more to say about it.
Inverted T with IJKL makes the most sense to me, or any other similar arrangements like OKL:, ESDF, and WASD.
Having Control in the place of CapsLock is all well and good, but I don't really see what the big deal is, given that it's very trivial to achieve in software. I get that it's a bit more elegant to have a hardware solution, but still, it seems to me that it's not a *very* big deal since it's something that any keyboard can support.
It is suppose this thread is within the keyboards sub-forum, now as usual it has derailed into expressions of hard feelings and non-sense, and where are the keyboard's facts and data now?... well done GH-ers.
It is suppose this thread is within the keyboards sub-forum, now as usual it has derailed into expressions of hard feelings and non-sense, and where are the keyboard's facts and data now?... well done GH-ers.um, nope most people here are still talking about the HHKB layout in relation to real world issues, like different softwares.
I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?
Caps Lock is useless but the position of the key is optimal for Control commands and the HHKB capitalizes upon this.
The backspace position on the HHKB is better than the typical position because it doesn't require you to stretch your hand, meaning your hands stay planted on the home row for a much, much longer time. This is not only more efficient, but it is much more comfortable in the long run.
The FN key is in a great position as well, and doesn't require leaving home row since it is reachable by the right pinky without moving the wrist. If you have smallish hands and can't reach it with you pinky, it only requires a very slight movement to reach it. Again this adds to efficiency and comfort compared to an FN key on the bottom row.
The FN layer is phenomenal as well. It might take a bit of time to get used to... but the FN-Arrow diamond, home, end, pg up, pg dn, etc are super accessible and once they become second nature, you realize that every other non-fully programmable 60% layout is inherently flawed and inferior.
All this, coupled with Topre switches, really makes it, in my opinion, the best keyboard you can buy.
Plus, it's really a great looking keyboard :thumb: