Author Topic: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?  (Read 34997 times)

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Offline Lunatique

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Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 18:42:49 »
I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?

Offline Sygaldry

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 18:57:52 »
I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?

Caps Lock is useless but the position of the key is optimal for Control commands and the HHKB capitalizes upon this.

The backspace position on the HHKB is better than the typical position because it doesn't require you to stretch your hand, meaning your hands stay planted on the home row for a much, much longer time. This is not only more efficient, but it is much more comfortable in the long run.

The FN key is in a great position as well, and doesn't require leaving home row since it is reachable by the right pinky without moving the wrist. If you have smallish hands and can't reach it with you pinky, it only requires a very slight movement to reach it. Again this adds to efficiency and comfort compared to an FN key on the bottom row.

The FN layer is phenomenal as well. It might take a bit of time to get used to... but the FN-Arrow diamond, home, end, pg up, pg dn, etc are super accessible and once they become second nature, you realize that every other non-fully programmable 60% layout is inherently flawed and inferior.

All this, coupled with Topre switches, really makes it, in my opinion, the best keyboard you can buy.

Plus, it's really a great looking keyboard  :thumb:
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Offline epzy

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 18:59:41 »
Control and backspace placement is why I love it so much.
« Last Edit: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:12:01 by epzy »
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Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:02:17 »
Control and enter placement is why I love it so much.

Don't forget that backspace!
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:09:18 »
I don't think the fn layer is that fantastic...on the plus side, it is designed to be used strictly with just one hand (right) and the placement of the arrows, etc, make sense if you're using the fn with your right pinky...It is a good layout but isn't perfect...

The CTRL placement and backspace placement are really what make it shine...Realforces can do the CTRL/Capslock swap but I don't think any of the alternatives do the backspace positioning which really does make more sense...

I think one common problem is that when you get used to the placement, moving to another keyboard results in a lot of \\\\ but if you switch back and forth enough, you won't have that problem eventually...


Offline epzy

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:12:18 »
Control and enter placement is why I love it so much.

Don't forget that backspace!

Oops, I meant backspace, not enter. :)
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Offline demik

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:13:05 »
Control and backspace placement is why I love it so much.

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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:37:55 »
Thanks for explaining.

If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace). The Control/CapsLock thing is very common these days with mechanical keyboards, so it's not really unique anymore. The unused U, J, and M keys on the Fn layer also seems odd to me, since that's three wasted keys on the home-row in the home position that's not being used.

I currently use the SpaceFN AHK script, which I've modified with a lot of my own mapping, and it does pretty much all I want without leaving the home-row:


(In this context, due to limited spaces on the keys, S means Shift, C means Ctrl, and long-stemmed up/down arrows means Page Up/Down.)

More about it here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67243.30

Being able to modify the mapping however you like is also very nice, since you can change your mind or create different mappings for different purposes (gaming, Photoshop, coding, etc). It's also nice to be able to use the script with any keyboard, and for people who often have to use their keyboards on different computers (such as tech support/IT guys), you can carry the AHK script on a USB drive and run it on whatever computer you need to work on. But I guess having the mapping stored on the keyboard hardware is always the better option (which is why fully-programmable keyboards are so desirable).

It's really down to subjective preference with layouts, since we are all wired differently, and one man's ergonomic dream could be another's nightmare. Some of you might look at my layout and say, "WTF?!"  :))


« Last Edit: Sun, 11 January 2015, 20:06:20 by Lunatique »

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 19:55:55 »
I was fearful of the HHKB layout, but so many people raved about the keyboard, I finally gave it a try. I was amazed at how quickly I adapted, and now, I remap all my keyboards to the HHKB layout. Prof. Wada researched this quite carefully in coming up with the design, and he seems to have come up with something fundamentally efficient and intuitive.

First, I find it quite efficient to have Backspace/Delete immediately above the Return/Enter key. Second, I really like to convert CapsLock to Control. Next, I prefer the HHKB cursor diamond to any other arrow key placement I have tried. Finally, the placement of the Fn key is ideal. The standard Right Shift is far too wide, and it makes sense to reduce this to 1.75x and to put a 1.00x Fn key to the right of Right Shift.

Now, I can't imagine going back to anything other than a HHKB layout on any keyboard that I use.


Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 20:06:30 »
I was fearful of the HHKB layout, but so many people raved about the keyboard, I finally gave it a try. I was amazed at how quickly I adapted, and now, I remap all my keyboards to the HHKB layout. Prof. Wada researched this quite carefully in coming up with the design, and he seems to have come up with something fundamentally efficient and intuitive.

First, I find it quite efficient to have Backspace/Delete immediately above the Return/Enter key. Second, I really like to convert CapsLock to Control. Next, I prefer the HHKB cursor diamond to any other arrow key placement I have tried. Finally, the placement of the Fn key is ideal. The standard Right Shift is far too wide, and it makes sense to reduce this to 1.75x and to put a 1.00x Fn key to the right of Right Shift.

Now, I can't imagine going back to anything other than a HHKB layout on any keyboard that I use.



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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 20:24:48 »
The HHKB is what you get if you make a mashup of the main sections of the Sun Type 3 and Type 5 keyboards...


... and then get rid of the rest of the board, turn the key to the right of the shift into a Fn key, ditch caps lock altogether, and shorten the spacebar so the bottom row modifiers are easier to reach.

Quote
Being able to modify the mapping however you like is also very nice, since you can change your mind or create different mappings for different purposes...
Hasu has made replacement HHKB controllers, so he could modify the key mapping: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047

Quote
It's really down to subjective preference with layouts, since we are all wired differently, and one man's ergonomic dream could be another's nightmare. Some of you might look at my layout and say, "WTF?!"  :))
I think your layout looks pretty arbitrary and hard to learn, but do whatever works for you. Anyway, none of these standardish-layout keyboards are anyone’s “ergonomic dream”.
« Last Edit: Sun, 11 January 2015, 20:32:19 by jacobolus »

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:01:47 »
Less is more?  It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.
I don't get it.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:04:06 »
I don't get it.
Seems to be a pattern. Don’t worry about it.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:10:41 »
If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).

That doesn't happen though.  How often are you hitting \ instead of enter?  How often are you hitting enter when you intend to hit \?  You don't..Or when you tab, are you hitting caps lock? 

I do like your use of IJKL for the arrow keys and the FN layer..that is where I'd put it..just makes sense to use FN on your left hand and not have to move anywhere to do arrow keys....but I can see the logic in the way it is for the HHKB as well..

Offline Fragil1ty

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:19:33 »
I have studied the HHKB layout numerous times since people keep talking about it (mostly rave about it, as opposed to the fewer number of people disliking it), and I just can't figure out what makes it superior to other compact-form keyboard layouts (such as the Leopold FC660C, Filco Minila, Ducky Mini, KBT PURE, etc). Can the pro-HHKB gang help me understand what makes the HHKB layout more efficient/convenient/usable than the other keyboards that rely on Fn layer for the navigation cluster?


I'm not sure if it's just me, but it's not just about the layout that is the dominating factor for the HHKB Pro 2. It's a whole multitude of things, here's just a small list of the reason why imo the HHKB is the perfect 60% board.
  • The placement of the backspace and the control + dipswitches
  • The feel of the board keycaps the plastic/material used on the board overall
  • The dipswitches as a whole
  • Topre switches (good for typing, not for gaming, but still amazing none the less)
  • Amazing FN position, makes using the other functions so much easier, e.g. f1-12, up, down, left, right etc
I just don't think there is a 60% board that can compete with the HHKB to be honest. I wish I would have kept mine, but I just need my 75% :(
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:30:17 »
I don't get it.
Seems to be a pattern. Don’t worry about it.
Seriously.  I am trying to understand how that would make it easier to do things that way.  It looks very difficult to work with.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:35:13 »
Less is more?  It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.
I don't get it.
Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:39:53 »
Less is more?  It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.
I don't get it.
Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
Rightl  I could see it for writing.  If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that.  It would be excellent otherwise.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:48:17 »
Less is more?  It seems everyone is going on the "spacesaving" kick.
I don't get it.
Not everyone needs a dedicated numpad or function row.
Rightl  I could see it for writing.  If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that.  It would be excellent otherwise.
yeah, like for people like me who mostly game and write, 60% is a perfect size and frees up a bunch of desk space. and having the nice fn layer of the HHKB is all the more useful
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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 21:53:21 »
If those are the main reasons why HHKB's layout is so raved about, then I guess it's just not as compelling to me, since having Backspace so close to the Enter key is actually kind of dangerous (such as while typing a message/text discussing a serious matter, you try to edit something you typed while being emotional but really shouldn't say, but hitting enter instead of Backspace).

That doesn't happen though.  How often are you hitting \ instead of enter?  How often are you hitting enter when you intend to hit \?  You don't..Or when you tab, are you hitting caps lock? 

I do like your use of IJKL for the arrow keys and the FN layer..that is where I'd put it..just makes sense to use FN on your left hand and not have to move anywhere to do arrow keys....but I can see the logic in the way it is for the HHKB as well..

I think we don't accidentally hit the \ key because it is not a key we use often (at least most of us). But once you move the Backspace to the same spot, you will be hitting that Backspace far more than you would ever hit the \, and that's when there could be a problem. I have never needed to use the \ often so I can't say if my prediction is accurate. Maybe I'll do an experiment and see what happens.

As for tab and CapsLock, I have accidentally hit the wrong one in the past when I'm really distracted, but you're right, it's very rare.

Hasu has made replacement HHKB controllers, so he could modify the key mapping: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12047

Yep. I first found out about it from spiceBar, who created the SpaceFN layout (and implemented as AHK script by lydell):
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0

Rightl  I could see it for writing.  If you needed those other things, it would be very hard for me to adjust to that.  It would be excellent otherwise.

And you'd be right. My custom layout is specifically for writing, since I write novels. I don't use it for other stuff (so when I'm not writing, I turn the script off). My main daily drivers are all TKL or at least 70~75%, and the only smaller form keyboard I have is the 66% Leopold FC660C. I don't think I'd ever go for a keyboard without discreet arrow keys as a daily driver, but if it's only for typing on a mobile device (such as my Galaxy Note 3), it would be totally fine.

Offline jdcarpe

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 22:00:40 »
Just use a HHKB for a month, and you will find out why its layout is the best. If you don't like it, you can always sell it.
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Offline slickmamba

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 11 January 2015, 22:16:10 »
Just use a HHKB for a month, and you will find out why its layout is the best. If you don't like it, you can always sell it.

There is a caveat of having an open and understanding mind for this to happen. 
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Offline Sygaldry

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 01:26:51 »
Just use a HHKB for a month week, and you will find out why its layout is the best.

« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 01:28:29 by Sygaldry »
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Offline danwomansan

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 01:44:41 »
maybe in the context of typing or video games it might be the best, but it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking and is only second to ergonomic designs that split the keyboard, and keyboards where delete/insert are unavailable entirely.
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Offline SavvyBird

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 01:47:58 »
Just use a HHKB for a month, and you will find out why its layout is the best. If you don't like it, you can always sell it.
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Offline Jersern

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:04:49 »
The layout is brilliant. No seriously.

Whoever decided we didn't ever use the slash key and replace it with backspace is a genius. I can't go back to a normal keyboard now. The lower backspace makes it so much easier to use! I find having control where caps is is also great. I won't ever accidentally sound like I am screaming my head off.

Definitely give it a go. If the arrow keys/ fn are inconvenient, I guess that's just a sacrifice made for the form factor and honestly I don't like the positioning of the arrow keys much. They're so unnatural if you get what I mean. (My main gripe with the layout).

Offline dustinhxc

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:10:41 »
I never enjoyed the layout, though the board is a 60% Topre and it looks cool w the corners filled w the case. It looks cute.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:19:56 »
I like the Backspace placement and Ctrl/Caps swap.

The Fn key placement is an improvement over most 60% Fn key placements, but I find it awkward to use although I see the appeal in it (the pinkie is the weakest finger for prolonged presses, even though it's the most conveniently positioned for them).

And I flat out hate the diamond arrow cluster (although I find HJKL even worse) and edit key placement, probably because I'm too used to an inverted T arrangement after 30 or so years of using normal layout boards.

And it's not programmable. That's the real dealbreaker for me, since if it were I could reprogram the arrow cluster and edit key positions on the Fn layer and enjoy the layout. It's the main thing preventing me from buying one.
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Offline Sniping

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:32:40 »
I like the control and backspace placement, but I still wish there were dedicated arrow keys like on the FC660C.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:34:45 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:40:18 »
And I flat out hate the diamond arrow cluster (although I find HJKL even worse) and edit key placement, probably because I'm too used to an inverted T arrangement after 30 or so years of using normal layout boards.
The diamond is probably better w/r/t reaction time / efficiency, considering it uses a different finger for each direction, but it does require a bit of an uncomfortable hand contortion. It would be better to use J for left, I for up, O for right, and spacebar for down, assuming a Fn key on the left hand (or in a column stagger board, J-K-L-space). It’s a bit unfortunate that the ring + middle fingers don’t have as much independent flexibility as one of them + index finger, one of them + thumb, or thumb + index finger does†. As such, the ideal would probably be to have the ring and middle finger be used for left and right, the index finger be used for up, and the thumb used for down (based on the assumption that it’s typically more useful to press two adjacent direction keys than two opposite direction keys in quick succession; there may be contexts where that’s a bad assumption). Or if you really want to get fancy, and you care about efficient arrow navigation to the exclusion of any other considerations, use two fingers on one hand for left/right, and two fingers on the other hand for up/down.

Really the only things the inverted T shape have going for it are that it’s very easy to learn, doesn't require too much reaching (making it IMO better than HJKL), makes a distinct shape on the keyboard so it’s easy to find without looking, and of course (now) it’s ubiquitous.

† this feature makes the inverted T particularly bad, because the middle + ring fingers are used for 3 of the 4 directions
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:51:59 by jacobolus »

Offline danwomansan

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:46:45 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

music thing
it's pronounced "danw omansen", not "dan woman san"

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:50:14 »
music thing
That UI looks pretty horrendous, but since, after looking at it, I still don’t have any idea what "tracking" might be, I’ll reserve judgment.

You’re right that there’s a lot of software built to expect standard 101-key keyboards, meaning users of other-layout keyboards need to do extra work to get things working, but I'm sure you could figure out a way to get an HHKB to handle the keyboard shortcuts required by this program, if you cared enough.

Edit: from the screenshot it seems to involve:
"the battle for panties ricockulous swing"
"beautiful choir of screaming children"
"unicorn police murder in sweden" and
"dual entry abomination" as well as
"horny quartet"
"leader of the orgy" and of course the ominous
"DC offset"
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:59:41 by jacobolus »

Offline Lunatique

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:51:03 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker

Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.

I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians. Conventional DAW's are much more intuitive in comparison. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene. 

« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:59:47 by Lunatique »

Offline Sygaldry

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:51:23 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?
I thought this was common knowledge.... the HHKB is pretty terrible for hunting deer in the forest. Hard to find footprints with your finger on the FN key. Also the extra keypress is another sound to scare the unsuspecting prey off.
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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:58:28 »
Inverted T with IJKL makes the most sense to me, or any other similar arrangements like OKL:, ESDF, and WASD.

Offline danwomansan

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 02:58:48 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker

Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.

I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene. 


to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.

and more ACCURATELY, not all trackers use hexadecimal. Sunvox is a perfect example of a tracker that uses entirely decimal, and that's fairly popular as software unidirectional modular synthesis is implemented almost entirely in trackers and JACK/ReWire applications, meaning it looks like one of the only options for soft modular synthesis available to someone who doesn't know how to use ReWire or JACK.
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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 03:03:09 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker

Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.

I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene. 


to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.

and more ACCURATELY, not all trackers use hexadecimal. Sunvox is a perfect example of a tracker that uses entirely decimal, and that's fairly popular as software unidirectional modular synthesis is implemented almost entirely in trackers and JACK/ReWire applications, meaning it looks like one of the only options for soft modular synthesis available to someone who doesn't know how to use ReWire or JACK.

I've used SunVox on iOS and Android, but not on a desktop computer. I like some of the synths in it, and it's fun to play with, but for more serious work such as composing a complex orchestral score, I have to use a more conventional DAW, if only because that's the industry standard in pro audio.

Offline snipars

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 05:47:21 »
I really like the HHKB layout but i can say from experience that i much prefer the capslock being swapped with backspace rather than with CTRL the way the hhkb does it
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Offline Khers

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 06:36:53 »
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« Last Edit: Tue, 03 July 2018, 08:08:50 by Khers »

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 06:50:00 »
My problem with the HHKB layout is that I do a lot of text editing (programming, emails...), and that I use the navigation cluster a lot and extensively.

In particular, I use Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn, and I also use quite often combinations like Shift-Home, Shift-End, Ctrl-Home and Ctrl-End.

For me, the problem is that on the HHKB Home is done with Fn+K. Try this: put your pinky on the far right side of the right Shift key and extend your index finger to the K key.

If, like me, you do not have large hands, you will notice two things:
- You extend your hand in a very uncomfortable way.
- You need to bend your wrist.

Reaching End is a little less difficult, but is still not easy.

For me, these are deal breakers. This is putting too much stress on the hand, at least on mine. It would probably be less difficult if I had bigger hands, but what can I do?

When I use my HHKB, I use it either with the SpaceFN layout or with the GuiFN layout. I reprogram the Fn key to be a Ctrl key (note: you cannot do that in software - my HHKB has a dedicated hardware controller inside that allows me to do it, if you do not have it the Fn key is basically a dead key).

Offline Keybatant

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 08:57:55 »
I believe is hard to make product which will please everyone. :cool:
Sadly to say I have similar issue with right FN+K, I use left "FN" then to sort this out (this spare window command key, but well...)
That was the best win for Fc660c for me, fn+arrow to rule them all in meaning for End, Home etc.
Then Leo had other "issues" which put me back.
Anyway ad rem, for me, typing on HHKB is just pure fun.
The "dancing" layout, the movement, the dynamic, the typing sound. This small keyb is just full of it.
For me, typing on 87u for example is like sitting on limo back seat, you feel the mass, pleasure, stability and control.
Typing on HHKB is like going to drift in porsche gt...

« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 08:59:38 by Keybatant »

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #42 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 09:59:51 »
I believe is hard to make product which will please everyone. :cool:
Sadly to say I have similar issue with right FN+K, I use left "FN" then to sort this out (this spare window command key, but well...)
That was the best win for Fc660c for me, fn+arrow to rule them all in meaning for End, Home etc.
Then Leo had other "issues" which put me back.
Anyway ad rem, for me, typing on HHKB is just pure fun.
The "dancing" layout, the movement, the dynamic, the typing sound. This small keyb is just full of it.
For me, typing on 87u for example is like sitting on limo back seat, you feel the mass, pleasure, stability and control.
Typing on HHKB is like going to drift in porsche gt...

It's purely an impression. I'm much faster on a Realforce 87U for any productivity task than on the HHKB.

If the HHKB is a sports car, it's an underpowered, slow one.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 10:05:42 »
My problem with the HHKB layout is that I do a lot of text editing (programming, emails...), and that I use the navigation cluster a lot and extensively.

In particular, I use Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn, and I also use quite often combinations like Shift-Home, Shift-End, Ctrl-Home and Ctrl-End.

For me, the problem is that on the HHKB Home is done with Fn+K. Try this: put your pinky on the far right side of the right Shift key and extend your index finger to the K key.

If, like me, you do not have large hands, you will notice two things:
- You extend your hand in a very uncomfortable way.
- You need to bend your wrist.

Reaching End is a little less difficult, but is still not easy.

For me, these are deal breakers. This is putting too much stress on the hand, at least on mine. It would probably be less difficult if I had bigger hands, but what can I do?

When I use my HHKB, I use it either with the SpaceFN layout or with the GuiFN layout. I reprogram the Fn key to be a Ctrl key (note: you cannot do that in software - my HHKB has a dedicated hardware controller inside that allows me to do it, if you do not have it the Fn key is basically a dead key).
You must have very small hands indeed. I do not consider my hands large, but with a bit of a stretch, I can reach the G key with my index finger while my little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift key, and I can comfortably reach the H key. The K key is definitely no problem. I suppose if your hands are so small that you cannot reach the K key with your index finger while your little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift, then the HHKB layout would not be for you.

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 10:32:52 »
My problem with the HHKB layout is that I do a lot of text editing (programming, emails...), and that I use the navigation cluster a lot and extensively.

In particular, I use Home and End much more often than PgUp and PgDn, and I also use quite often combinations like Shift-Home, Shift-End, Ctrl-Home and Ctrl-End.

For me, the problem is that on the HHKB Home is done with Fn+K. Try this: put your pinky on the far right side of the right Shift key and extend your index finger to the K key.

If, like me, you do not have large hands, you will notice two things:
- You extend your hand in a very uncomfortable way.
- You need to bend your wrist.

Reaching End is a little less difficult, but is still not easy.

For me, these are deal breakers. This is putting too much stress on the hand, at least on mine. It would probably be less difficult if I had bigger hands, but what can I do?

When I use my HHKB, I use it either with the SpaceFN layout or with the GuiFN layout. I reprogram the Fn key to be a Ctrl key (note: you cannot do that in software - my HHKB has a dedicated hardware controller inside that allows me to do it, if you do not have it the Fn key is basically a dead key).
You must have very small hands indeed. I do not consider my hands large, but with a bit of a stretch, I can reach the G key with my index finger while my little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift key, and I can comfortably reach the H key. The K key is definitely no problem. I suppose if your hands are so small that you cannot reach the K key with your index finger while your little finger is on the far right of the Right Shift, then the HHKB layout would not be for you.

At max stretch I can reach the right edge of the G key. I cannot press G without also pressing on J. Reaching K is already is significant effort for me. It doesn't flow naturally.

I now realize this explains our differing points of views on the HHKB, and it may even be used, probably, as a good predictor of one's difficulty to adapt to the layout.

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 10:40:09 »
@spiceBar: This is very interesting. Designers of keyboards and keyboard layouts should take note!

Offline spiceBar

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 10:46:40 »
@spiceBar: This is very interesting. Designers of keyboards and keyboard layouts should take note!

Yes, it's a kind of revelation for me too.

It's not just a matter of taste after all.

Offline Keybatant

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 12:27:44 »
It's purely an impression. I'm much faster on a Realforce 87U for any productivity task than on the HHKB.

If the HHKB is a sports car, it's an underpowered, slow one.

Hmm, so basically you are faster on a much bigger keyboard, that will probably force your small right hand to constantly abandon 'home row' to reach keys like del, home, end and arrows etc.
Well, for me as a coder, this is working in precisely opposite direction, but as you already concluded, it's purely an impression...



Offline spiceBar

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 14:02:27 »
It's purely an impression. I'm much faster on a Realforce 87U for any productivity task than on the HHKB.

If the HHKB is a sports car, it's an underpowered, slow one.

Hmm, so basically you are faster on a much bigger keyboard, that will probably force your small right hand to constantly abandon 'home row' to reach keys like del, home, end and arrows etc.
Well, for me as a coder, this is working in precisely opposite direction, but as you already concluded, it's purely an impression...

Show Image


My left hand is so big that it compensates for the right one.

OK, just kidding.

I have created two layouts for 60% keyboards, which work well with the HHKB and Poker-like keyboards: SpaceFN and GuiFN.

These layouts reduce significantly hands movements, to the point that I'm always surprised by how much we have to move our hands on a TKL.

However, when coding, the navigation cluster of a TKL is still more comfortable for me.

I guess it has to do with the extra mental work of thinking about the keyboard layout. It disturbs me, and eventually the economy of movements does not translate to more productivity for me.

In any case, there is nothing I find superior about the HHKB over for example the Poker X or Poker 2 or the FC660C.

The default layout is difficult for me to use because of the Fn-K problem, and this thread is specifically about the HHKB layout. I think I have explained why I don't like it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 January 2015, 14:33:54 by spiceBar »

Offline danwomansan

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Re: Help me understand why HHKB's layout is often raved about?
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 12 January 2015, 15:24:21 »
it is, by far, not the best for things like trackers. I look at the hhkb and think of using it for a tracker and only see disaster as FN must be held to insert, a crucial thing to do in trackers. Also, the arrow keys, the most important buttons in a tracker, used nonstop for navigation, are in the FN layer. The hhkb is one of the worst keyboards for tracking
What in the world is 'tracking'?

It's a specific type of music creation software, which is based on hex number system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker

Some people love it, some hate it, since it's very different from more conventional music creation workflow such as DAW's (Digital Audio Workstation)--which is represented by well-known ones like Pro-Tools, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Ableton Live, FL Studio, etc.

I personally don't like it because using hex numbers isn't exactly intuitive for musicians, which conventional DAW's are much more intuitive. Also, trackers aren't nearly as popular and you're not going to find a lot of people using them in professional audio production--it's mostly considered a hobbyist thing, or closely associated with the demo scene. 


to state it more simply, a music spreadsheet and far-outdating the "conventional" daw.

and more ACCURATELY, not all trackers use hexadecimal. Sunvox is a perfect example of a tracker that uses entirely decimal, and that's fairly popular as software unidirectional modular synthesis is implemented almost entirely in trackers and JACK/ReWire applications, meaning it looks like one of the only options for soft modular synthesis available to someone who doesn't know how to use ReWire or JACK.

I've used SunVox on iOS and Android, but not on a desktop computer. I like some of the synths in it, and it's fun to play with, but for more serious work such as composing a complex orchestral score, I have to use a more conventional DAW, if only because that's the industry standard in pro audio.

"Conventional" (pianoroll-sequencer) DAWs only became the standard recently because nobody wanted to learn how to use a tracker. The main downsides are that they are a slave to the mouse (therefore much slower than trackers) and you generally can't see the notes of more than one channel at once. The only upside that they have on trackers is that they are generally easier to learn. What would take a proficient pianoroll-sequencer user an hour generally takes me 10 minutes in a tracker. Coming back to the hhkb, those speed gains would be lost by needing to use FN to access the arrow keys and insert.

also, just because I don't want to drop the sunvox thing
More
sunvox on ios and android is for people who use trackers already and are in a situation where they cannot access their PC anymore. It is, by far, the most inferior version of the tracker, but it's not meant to be good. It's meant to give people stuck on mobile something other than MilkyTracker, which is an exact clone of FTII (which, by the way, was released in the 90's). It is for people like my close friend who originally showed me Renoise and Sunvox (famitracker was my first tracker but I thought it was the only tracker for a long time), he's bedridden by "something" causing extreme fatigue, along with early-onset arthritis in a fair amount of his joints. Don't reply to anything about him if you quote this.
it's pronounced "danw omansen", not "dan woman san"