Thanks, now when someone asks me what the advantage is I can point them here.
Over time, the capacitive-sheet beneath the key becomes worn out. The only way to reliably activate keys on a worn-out capacitive sheet is to PRESS-HARDER.Note, keyboard membranes make direct electrical contact, it’s not a “capacitive sheet”.
Using significant down-force isn't the worst part about this, it's the HOLDING of the key at high force that ultimate does the damage to one's hands.Some of TP4’s advice is reasonable enough, but people should be wary of this theory. There’s no direct evidence backing it up so far as I know, and I’m skeptical of the reasoning. As far as I can tell it’s just something TP4 made up because it seemed logical to him personally.
The fact that one needs high-force to ensure activation + the fact that the key only activates @ 100% of key travel (all the way down) causes people to Strike and HOLD..
The HOLDING is as if you're lifting weights with your fingers + wrists..
Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)
But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..
And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..Could you please cite a peer reviewed paper about this? Or some reasoning from a reliable expert?
Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)
But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..
These sentences are problematic.
The first sentence is much to narrow. You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands. If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow. It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.
The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory. Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical." More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.
As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece. I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles. It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.
Pretty good, but you left out one further reason for rubber dome and Topre bottom out habit: the dome collapse causes the resistance to drop much more than MX and it doesn't increase again until right at bottom out, so it is actually a lot harder to not bottom out on Topre than on MX which have the constantly increasing resistance from the spring.
Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)
But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..
These sentences are problematic.
The first sentence is much to narrow. You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands. If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow. It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.
The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory. Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical." More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.
As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece. I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles. It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.
I have to take shortcuts in explanation because this is for NOVICES...
I can make this REALLY long and PRECISE.. but it's hard enough to get kids to read more than 500 words these days.. so.. I've settled on Accurate ENOUGH..
This is not meant to be an exhaustive lay of the land.. The entry level keyboarders would not be able to even find proper referencing for those things..
WTF is a Futaba / Mitsumi.. Do they even sell this on amazon?
I write in consideration of the audience..Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_104_.gif)
@ Jacob..
Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people..
I've never read any piano books on technique..
It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..
They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..
Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..
It just isn't
Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)
But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..
These sentences are problematic.
The first sentence is much to narrow. You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands. If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow. It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.
The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory. Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical." More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.
As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece. I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles. It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.
I have to take shortcuts in explanation because this is for NOVICES...
I can make this REALLY long and PRECISE.. but it's hard enough to get kids to read more than 500 words these days.. so.. I've settled on Accurate ENOUGH..
This is not meant to be an exhaustive lay of the land.. The entry level keyboarders would not be able to even find proper referencing for those things..
WTF is a Futaba / Mitsumi.. Do they even sell this on amazon?
I write in consideration of the audience..Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_104_.gif)
Futaba and Mitsumi are uncommon switches, but I would assume that someone writing an article target at new users would be aware of them. Perhaps you should include Kailh and Razer switches if your audience is novice.
Edit: removed word that changed meaning of text
@ Jacob..
Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people..
I've never read any piano books on technique..
It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..
They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..
Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..
It just isn't
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY)
@ Jacob..
Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people..
I've never read any piano books on technique..
It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..
They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..
Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..
It just isn't
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY)
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY)
Yea.. all of maybe 6 dudes have read those papers.. haha.
My point is not that a rigourous paper may have ever been written, rather that most people who learn to play piano would never be exposed to those papers.
Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people.. I've never read any piano books on technique.. It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..I’d also accept a youtube video of a famous piano teacher talking about this holding idea. That’s not 100% reliable, because lots of famous experts come up with really wacky theories that turn out to be wrong, but it would be better than “some guy on a keyboard forum says so”.
The precedent is my experience with piano.. and some office workers I've seen who hit their keys really hard.. If you want a rigorous scientific article on the subject.. This is not that..And that’s totally fine. I’m not trying to say you shouldn’t explain your own theories. Indeed, please keep it coming: I find many of your posts interesting, and even the ones I think are nuts are often amusing.
[..]
Over time, the copper-contact-sheet beneath the key becomes worn out. The only way to reliably activate keys on a worn-out copper sheet is to PRESS-HARDER.
[..]
@jacobolus These are not theories.. they're facts..
@jacobolus These are not theories.. they're facts..
This needs to go in someone's sig...Tp4 vs Jacobolus :p
@ jacobolusbut the ergonomics and the key action on pianos is a like thousand times different than on a keyboard
These are not theories.. they're facts..
To arrive at them, I've borrowed from my piano experience when I taught piano to little kids.. and the mistakes they would make in parsing their key strike..
In piano.. There is holding and there's letting go.. both are VALID techniques to hitting the keys..
However, on a Keyboard, the HOLDING is OUT..
And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..
Many kids also tend to HOLD keys regardless of requirements because they feel like they'll lose their place on the keyboard..
HOLDING in the wrong place is a major hurdle for many people going into piano..
Again.. there's no unexplored theory here... Only perhaps something YOU yourself have never been exposed to..
@ jacobolusbut the ergonomics and the key action on pianos is a like thousand times different than on a keyboard
These are not theories.. they're facts..
To arrive at them, I've borrowed from my piano experience when I taught piano to little kids.. and the mistakes they would make in parsing their key strike..
In piano.. There is holding and there's letting go.. both are VALID techniques to hitting the keys..
However, on a Keyboard, the HOLDING is OUT..
And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..
Many kids also tend to HOLD keys regardless of requirements because they feel like they'll lose their place on the keyboard..
HOLDING in the wrong place is a major hurdle for many people going into piano..
Again.. there's no unexplored theory here... Only perhaps something YOU yourself have never been exposed to..
Not sure why he writes about Topre either...By his own admission he's only used them for a short period of time...I think hours?
On the plus side, no more arguments about people only liking Topre because of how much it costs (because that isn't a factor) and I didn't see endless stuff about Ergodox...
I'm going to stay out of the fights going on in this thread. I feel like I'm going to end up trapped in the crossfire and lose an ear, or something.
That being said, I like your writeup. It's written in a way that the average person can understand, and tells them why they should care. I'm going to give it an overall thumbs up and let the rest of y'all hammer out the details :thumb:
I'm used to blue and jacob.. Jacob has been on me ever since the 4k monitor incident.. LOLOLI’m not trying to give you a hard time. (Well, maybe a little.)
As a piano player (50+ years, sigh), the piano metaphors have occurred to me here too.Yeah, no. (Or rather, if you think a standard keyboard can be used with mostly arm motion, I defy you to make a video showing someone typing fluently – say, >60wpm – which demonstrates this.)
I think the most useful transfer from piano to typing is the concept of involving the movement of your hands and upper arms, and not making your fingers do all the work. Mechanical KBs are just great for this—it's like they're made to be used this way.
[...] you must always "bottom out" [a piano key] to make sound.This isn’t quite true. The piano key actuates noticeably before the bottom of its stroke. (It’s pretty close to the bottom though. I wonder if there’d be any advantage to building a piano where the keys had a bit more post-actuation travel. That would obviously be weird for pianists used to the current keys, but it might help a bit with avoiding impact shock.)
...
Also a major problem is the DESK even with a pull out tray is much higher than a piano keyboard..
That means to use upper arm movement with enough clearance, You have to lift at the shoulders... This is a huge contributor to RSI for some typists..
Don't just sit here and say alot about nothing..The best popular switch "short form" descriptions in layman's terms I've seen.
...
Also a major problem is the DESK even with a pull out tray is much higher than a piano keyboard..
That means to use upper arm movement with enough clearance, You have to lift at the shoulders... This is a huge contributor to RSI for some typists..
It shouldn't be. It should at a similar height for best ergonomics. And it takes less effort to type when you use more muscle groups. Your wrists should be raised off any rests while you type.
If your desk is too high and you keep your wrists on the rest when you type it's likely you are not typing at maximum efficiency, don't have the best blood flow or wrist angles. You could also be compressing veins / arteries / tendons, etc in the wrists.
I was not angry at the 87u itself, I was most displeased with the Overhype that its received, which was what convinced me to get it..
I was promised, <keyboard revelation>
I received..Show Image(http://liubavyshka.ru/_ph/99/2/712228485.gif)quack....
It felt exactly like rubber dome..
I am willing to admit the quality and tolerances / design / technology is better..
But it was certainly NOT as advertised by fellow GH-members..
I recognize its merits as a keyboard, and I've included that in the write-up..
But I made sure to exclude the HYPE, which is unfounded..
I was not angry at the 87u itself, I was most displeased with the Overhype that its received, which was what convinced me to get it..
I was promised, <keyboard revelation>
I received..Show Image(http://liubavyshka.ru/_ph/99/2/712228485.gif)quack....
It felt exactly like rubber dome..
I am willing to admit the quality and tolerances / design / technology is better..
But it was certainly NOT as advertised by fellow GH-members..
I recognize its merits as a keyboard, and I've included that in the write-up..
But I made sure to exclude the HYPE, which is unfounded..
For the longest time you were convinced the only reason people enjoyed Topre was because of the price it carried with it...I think we've safely put that to bed as untrue.
Also, you've only used it for a short period of time right? I'm sure you feel that's all you really needed..but there are a lot of Topre users (including myself) that felt exactly the same as you did but just tried it a bit more to we could really see the differences in Topre vs. Cherry vs. regular rubber dome. Some still ultimately decided they disliked it but many others have decided they indeed do like Topre...
I still believe MANY people are keeping it due to the psychological need to ameliorate their internal conflict for having paid so much for a mere so-so experience.
The cause of which has nothing to do with the board itself, merely the HYPE surrounding it.
The board is what it is.. and it does not carry any real technical advantage over cherry or any other keyboard that actuate at 2mm
You might like apples, but the truth is, your body just cares that you got sugar and the vitamins..
So what do topre users get OUTSIDE of the 2mm actuation..
-Elite status- expensive keyboard
-Weeaboo club membership- other people who are equally irrationally enamored with Jpn
Let me clarify.. Topre isn't BAD.. it just simply does NOT measure up to the HYPE and Fandom that surrounds it here at GH and other keyboard forums..
What additional hype is there? No one claims it has magical properties..No one claims it'll make you a faster typer than Cherry, or more accurate, or cure you of your ailments...Pretty sure they do, actually. Have you ever looked in on one of those Topre circlejerk threads?
I'm starting to think that tp4tissue is Ripster's sock puppet.
You're rapidly approaching his level of delusion though.
What additional hype is there? No one claims it has magical properties..No one claims it'll make you a faster typer than Cherry, or more accurate, or cure you of your ailments...Pretty sure they do, actually. Have you ever looked in on one of those Topre circlejerk threads?
[Actually, I can totally buy that certain people can type faster and/or more accurately on Topre switches than some MX switches. The bounce on the upstroke is a tangible advantage.]
I'm used to blue and jacob.. Jacob has been on me ever since the 4k monitor incident.. LOLOLI�m not trying to give you a hard time. (Well, maybe a little.)
I just think you often say things in a very authoritative/confident way without actually having terribly strong evidence to back you up. I do this too sometimes (which is why I notice it in other people),
Neither of are delusional..
Neither of are delusional..
I think that pretty much sums it all up really :-)
Is that what you thought that was?
Sounds like to me TP4 is trying to make little minions that agree with his way of thinking...
He has some nice theories in there...A bit short on information though..a lot of opinion wrapped up to appear as possible fact...
All keyboards that have a switch mechanism are mechanical by definition. The only board types I can think of that are not are laser projection and capacitive touch.
Lets stop arguing minor points, the OP is accurate enough to help a noob as it is meant to be. This is not the way to treat a helpful and informative thread.