Mechanical Keyboards (Mysteries Revealed)

[tp4tissue]

This is just a splash for the Novices.. It covers the foundational - assertions of the mechanical keyboard hobby.

There is much more to explore, if you're after the details, BUT, this should get you started on the important basics.


0 - WHAT IS a mechanical keyboard?


---  ALL keyboards are mechanical, ALL of them.


The difference comes down to their MECHANISM for key-activation along with the advantages and Disadvantages of said mechanisms.

On this website (Geekhack) and many others,  people lump rubber sheet keyboards (the big-box store computers) as non-mechanical or rubber-dome keyboards.

Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)

<not an exhaustive list, there are others, but these are the ones you can buy readily>

Overall it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..


1 - Why is Rubber-Dome considered bad?


---  Big box computer keyboards cause Cramping because it teaches the user bad technique.


- From big-box-computers, the typical Rubber Dome key activates when you press the key -all-the-way-down-.

Over time, the copper-contact-sheet beneath the key becomes worn out. The only way to reliably activate keys on a worn-out copper sheet is to PRESS-HARDER.

Most people who grew up with this type of keyboard and actively use them will develop cramping in their wrist or fingers due to "Unconsciously" utilizing excessive force to ENSURE activation...

Using significant down-force isn't the worst part about this,  it's the HOLDING of the key at high force that ultimate does the damage to one's hands.

The fact that one needs high-force to ensure activation + the fact that the key only activates @ 100% of key travel (all the way down) causes people to Strike and HOLD..

The HOLDING is as if you're lifting weights with your fingers + wrists..

It's not a problem to do this for a short period of time, but add it up over hours and hours and hours..   You can easily see this turning into an ergonomic catastrophe.

One must understand that this HABIT of using excessive force is not learned overnight, it comes from a lengthy exposure to less-reliable keys..


2 - How are Mechanical keyboards any better?


---  They are more reliable and train you to type-properly.


Mechanical keyboards activate @ 2 millimeters of travel, regardless of how hard you've pressed the keys..  The reliability of key input does NOT change with Applied-Force..

This instills in the USER, the unconscious choice to Reduce force to only what's necessary.  It will NOT cause the user to ever Hold-down a key, because holding down the key is of no use.. the key will activate past the 2mm point, the bottom of the keystroke is not directly related to input..

---  If you grew up on the traditional rubber dome keyboards, children of late 80s-90s. Then it is likely that you have learned the "tiresome" habit of Strike-n-Hold..

The only way to correct it is to consciously reduce not-only the applied force, but to RELEASE the key after you've hit the bottom of the key.

For a detailed explanation as to WHY you need to hit the bottom.. You may find such pertinent information in my 135 words per minute SPEED GUIDE.. linked below

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=67941.0 


---  Learning to Key-Release, is the most grand advantage to mechanical keyboards. Knowing that they are not dependent upon high force / holding,  you can more easily transition into the Ideal typing-release-technique.


3 - If Topre = Rubber-Dome, how is Topre better?


---  Tell me about TOPRE:


Topre IS a rubber dome keyboard.. It FEELS exactly like your familiar keyboard.. some even call it "homely (british)"..

The familiarity in "feel" is the foundation of its success..

However, Topre has retains the 2mm travel advantage of mechanical keyboards..

Despite the fact that Topre feels -good- to most people.. It is often the case that because Topre feels exactly like the cheaper-Rubber-sheet keyboards, it causes users to continue their bad strike-n-hold technique of typing..

-Strike -n- Hold technique is discussed in the above sections.


4 - Cherry MX, is cherry better or worse than Topre?


---  Cherry Mx's primary difference from Topre is that it feels very different and more linear.. -less bump feel-


This novelty in sensation is what triggers many users who are already adapted to strike-n-hold to relinquish the bad technique and adjust to proper strike-release..

I must note that it is NOT impossible to learn proper strike-release on a Topre..

--  but it's just often harder because

---  1, the user might not be aware of the fact that he's been doing himself harm,
---  2, the user might not know about proper technique..

- Essentially the Linear-type switches has Proper technique Built into its sensation system..

Whereas if you started with improper technique on big-box keyboards, Topre by design will not tell you what you've been doing wrong.. <this does not prevent you from correcting, it's just not obvious while using Topre>

[OverKill]

Thanks, now when someone asks me what the advantage is I can point them here.

[tp4tissue]

Thanks, now when someone asks me what the advantage is I can point them here.

[jacobolus]

Over time, the capacitive-sheet beneath the key becomes worn out. The only way to reliably activate keys on a worn-out capacitive sheet is to PRESS-HARDER.

Note, keyboard membranes make direct electrical contact, it’s not a “capacitive sheet”.

Using significant down-force isn't the worst part about this,  it's the HOLDING of the key at high force that ultimate does the damage to one's hands.

The fact that one needs high-force to ensure activation + the fact that the key only activates @ 100% of key travel (all the way down) causes people to Strike and HOLD..

The HOLDING is as if you're lifting weights with your fingers + wrists..

Some of TP4’s advice is reasonable enough, but people should be wary of this theory. There’s no direct evidence backing it up so far as I know, and I’m skeptical of the reasoning. As far as I can tell it’s just something TP4 made up because it seemed logical to him personally.

[tp4tissue]

Wh00ps..  Idk why I wrote capacitive.. I meant copper contact..  I was thinking about the next sections when I wrote it on how to explain topre..  brain-segwayed.

[tp4tissue]

@   jacobolus

These are not theories.. they're facts..


To arrive at them, I've borrowed from my piano experience when I taught piano to little kids.. and the mistakes they would make in parsing their key strike..


In piano.. There is holding and there's letting go.. both are VALID techniques to hitting the keys..

However,  on a Keyboard,  the HOLDING is OUT..


And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..


Many kids also tend to HOLD keys regardless of requirements because they feel like they'll lose their place on the keyboard.. 

HOLDING in the wrong place is a major hurdle for many people going into piano..


Again.. there's no unexplored theory here...  Only perhaps something YOU yourself have never been exposed to..

[BlueNalgene]

Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)

But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..

These sentences are problematic. 

The first sentence is much to narrow.  You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands.  If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow.  It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.

The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory.  Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical."  More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.

As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece.  I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles.  It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.

[jacobolus]

And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..

Could you please cite a peer reviewed paper about this? Or some reasoning from a reliable expert?

Basically, I don’t trust stuff you make up, because of the parts I actually know enough about to judge, ~50% of it seems mostly reasonable if sometimes a bit exaggerated or slightly off, and the other ~50% seems totally bat**** crazy. :-)

[Oobly]

Pretty good, but you left out one further reason for rubber dome and Topre bottom out habit: the dome collapse causes the resistance to drop much more than MX and it doesn't increase again until right at bottom out, so it is actually a lot harder to not bottom out on Topre than on MX which have the constantly increasing resistance from the spring.

[tp4tissue]

Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)

But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..

These sentences are problematic. 

The first sentence is much to narrow.  You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands.  If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow.  It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.

The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory.  Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical."  More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.

As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece.  I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles.  It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.

I have to take shortcuts in explanation because this is for NOVICES...

I can make this REALLY long and PRECISE..  but it's hard enough to get kids to read more than 500 words these days..  so..  I've settled on Accurate ENOUGH..


This is not meant to be an exhaustive lay of the land.. The entry level keyboarders would not be able to even find proper referencing for those things..

WTF is a Futaba / Mitsumi..  Do they even sell this on amazon?


I write in consideration of the audience..

[tp4tissue]

Pretty good, but you left out one further reason for rubber dome and Topre bottom out habit: the dome collapse causes the resistance to drop much more than MX and it doesn't increase again until right at bottom out, so it is actually a lot harder to not bottom out on Topre than on MX which have the constantly increasing resistance from the spring.

Bottoming out has never been a problem all it's own.. It may or may not occur.. but I wanted to emphasize that the HOLDING is the problem.

[BlueNalgene]

Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)

But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..

These sentences are problematic. 

The first sentence is much to narrow.  You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands.  If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow.  It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.

The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory.  Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical."  More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.

As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece.  I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles.  It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.

I have to take shortcuts in explanation because this is for NOVICES...

I can make this REALLY long and PRECISE..  but it's hard enough to get kids to read more than 500 words these days..  so..  I've settled on Accurate ENOUGH..


This is not meant to be an exhaustive lay of the land.. The entry level keyboarders would not be able to even find proper referencing for those things..

WTF is a Futaba / Mitsumi..  Do they even sell this on amazon?


I write in consideration of the audience..

Show Image

Futaba and Mitsumi are uncommon switches, but I would assume that someone writing an article target at new users would be aware of them.  Perhaps you should include Kailh and Razer switches if your audience is novice.

Edit: removed word that changed meaning of text

[tp4tissue]

@  Jacob.. 

Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people.. 

I've never read any piano books on technique..

It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..

They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..

Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..

It just isn't

[BlueNalgene]

@  Jacob.. 

Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people.. 

I've never read any piano books on technique..

It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..

They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..

Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..

It just isn't

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY

[tp4tissue]

Only the Cherry MX / IBM Buckling / Japan Topre / Japan Alps variety are considered colloquially as (Mechanical)

But it's important to keep in mind that fundamentally, all keyboards are mechanical..

These sentences are problematic. 

The first sentence is much to narrow.  You list brands rather than mechanism types, excluding Futaba, Hirose, Mitsumi, and a load of other brands.  If this statement is meant as a list of the mechanical mechanisms, it is also too narrow.  It omits magnetic and optical based switches - instead only listing switch types that make electrical contact.

The second sentence is also technically incorrect, or at least worded in such a way that is not entirely explanatory.  Magnetic and optical switches can be argued to be "non-mechanical."  More importantly, it omits recognition of capacitive touchscreen keyboards that are becoming more common.

As a whole, this is a useful opinion piece.  I would be wary of calling this factual without providing rigorous sources for some of your claims such as the potential for ergonomic harm due to typing styles.  It also smells somewhat of Topre propaganda, but that may be an incorrect assumption on my part.

I have to take shortcuts in explanation because this is for NOVICES...

I can make this REALLY long and PRECISE..  but it's hard enough to get kids to read more than 500 words these days..  so..  I've settled on Accurate ENOUGH..


This is not meant to be an exhaustive lay of the land.. The entry level keyboarders would not be able to even find proper referencing for those things..

WTF is a Futaba / Mitsumi..  Do they even sell this on amazon?


I write in consideration of the audience..

Show Image

Futaba and Mitsumi are uncommon switches, but I would assume that someone writing an article target at new users would be aware of them.  Perhaps you should include Kailh and Razer switches if your audience is novice.

Edit: removed word that changed meaning of text

I know what they are..  though I don't personally see their relevance..

In fact I don't see the relevance in the difference of ANY switch outside of Linear vs tactile, 2mm vs bottom..

I write as a utilitarian..

This is what I believe a novice needs 


Maybe you could write the followup with more detail..

[tp4tissue]

@  Jacob.. 

Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people.. 

I've never read any piano books on technique..

It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..

They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..

Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..

It just isn't

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY

Yea.. all of maybe 6 dudes have read those papers.. haha.

My point was not that a rigourous paper has never been written, rather that most people who learn to play piano would not be exposed to those papers.

[BlueNalgene]

@  Jacob.. 

Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people.. 

I've never read any piano books on technique..

It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..

They MAY or may not go into specifics on HOLDING.. it really depends on the instructor..

Piano is not done like proving the effectiveness of antibiotics..

It just isn't

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140138908966837#.VPiigPnF9KY

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140135808964596#.VPiig_nF9KY

Yea.. all of maybe 6 dudes have read those papers.. haha.

My point is not that a rigourous paper may have ever been written, rather that most people who learn to play piano would never be exposed to those papers.

The Grieco et al. paper has 20 citations by other journal articles in the Web of Science.  The journal Ergonomics has an impact factor >1.  Your claim that "all of maybe 6 dudes have read those papers" is unreasonable.  I agree that people being taught piano are probably not exposed to these articles.  However this is not to say they shouldn't be.  Making claims in your original post regarding "user might not be aware of the fact that he's been doing himself harm" suggests that you are just talking out of your ass unless you can cite precedent. 

[tp4tissue]

The precedent is my experience with piano.. and some office workers I've seen who hit their keys really hard..

If you want a rigorous scientific article on the subject..  This is not that..


This is meant to be general..



As far as doing harm..  I've experienced this typing and hold technique myself..

After getting a mechanical keyboard.. I compared the differences in how I approached making the key strokes..

I looked at why a light keystroke vs a harder keystroke might be taken upon by the user. what aspect of typing would push them towards either choice..


The conclusions I made are similar to the issues I've dealt with in Piano..


To the whiners.. blue/jacob/etc..  I challenge YOU to prove me wrong..  You want rigorous..

Go do something about it...

Don't just sit here and say alot about nothing..

[jacobolus]

Piano has NEVER been put down in rigorous pages for most people..  I've never read any piano books on technique..  It's 99% of the time taught by the piano-instructor..

I’d also accept a youtube video of a famous piano teacher talking about this holding idea. That’s not 100% reliable, because lots of famous experts come up with really wacky theories that turn out to be wrong, but it would be better than “some guy on a keyboard forum says so”.

The precedent is my experience with piano.. and some office workers I've seen who hit their keys really hard.. If you want a rigorous scientific article on the subject..  This is not that..

And that’s totally fine. I’m not trying to say you shouldn’t explain your own theories. Indeed, please keep it coming: I find many of your posts interesting, and even the ones I think are nuts are often amusing.

I just wanted to add a little disclaimer for readers who may be taken in by the certainty and authority in your tone, to point out that this is just one person’s anecdotal experience.

[keyhopper]

[..]
Over time, the copper-contact-sheet beneath the key becomes worn out. The only way to reliably activate keys on a worn-out copper sheet is to PRESS-HARDER.
[..]

I *think* that there is no copper in the membrane sheets, but graphite and silver.


There is one more aspect:
Most of the rubber dome keyboards have poor square sliders built into the keycap, of poor plastics, that get worn out and over time some keys become sticky. That doesn't happen in high quality rubber domes or Topre because of round and better quality sliders that don't scratch the housing over time and don't get worn out as much, preventing sticky keys.

That is one more advantage of mechanical keyboards and Topre over regular rubber domes: you won't get keys that don't go down smooth or get stuck and require enormous force. This is one of the two reasons why rubber domes need to get replaced so much. The other one being problems in the membrane because of worn out pads or water getting inside.

Cheers!

[engicoder]

@jacobolus These are not theories.. they're facts..

This needs to go in someone's sig...Tp4 vs Jacobolus   

[tp4tissue]

@jacobolus These are not theories.. they're facts..

This needs to go in someone's sig...Tp4 vs Jacobolus   

Facts of Life..

[Roibhilin]

@   jacobolus

These are not theories.. they're facts..


To arrive at them, I've borrowed from my piano experience when I taught piano to little kids.. and the mistakes they would make in parsing their key strike..


In piano.. There is holding and there's letting go.. both are VALID techniques to hitting the keys..

However,  on a Keyboard,  the HOLDING is OUT..


And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..


Many kids also tend to HOLD keys regardless of requirements because they feel like they'll lose their place on the keyboard.. 

HOLDING in the wrong place is a major hurdle for many people going into piano..


Again.. there's no unexplored theory here...  Only perhaps something YOU yourself have never been exposed to..

but the ergonomics and the key action on pianos is a like thousand times different than on a keyboard

[tp4tissue]

@   jacobolus

These are not theories.. they're facts..


To arrive at them, I've borrowed from my piano experience when I taught piano to little kids.. and the mistakes they would make in parsing their key strike..


In piano.. There is holding and there's letting go.. both are VALID techniques to hitting the keys..

However,  on a Keyboard,  the HOLDING is OUT..


And I know for a fact, that anything on Piano that requires HOLDING is strenuous and a known cause for finger and wrist cramping..


Many kids also tend to HOLD keys regardless of requirements because they feel like they'll lose their place on the keyboard.. 

HOLDING in the wrong place is a major hurdle for many people going into piano..


Again.. there's no unexplored theory here...  Only perhaps something YOU yourself have never been exposed to..

but the ergonomics and the key action on pianos is a like thousand times different than on a keyboard

There are differences..  yes..  but the source of " RSI pain " is the same..

There has to be repetitive motion and a high force output.


On piano, long practice sessions + certain evocative phrases would REQUIRE high force output.


this is NEVER true on the computer keyboard..

YET,  there are people who are pressing and holding keys down HARD..

I've narrowed and traced these issues back to the reliability-fault of the standard-rubber-dome.

You would ONLY press the key Hard, because it ensured activation..

[Chromako]

I'm going to stay out of the fights going on in this thread. I feel like I'm going to end up trapped in the crossfire and lose an ear, or something.


That being said, I like your writeup. It's written in a way that the average person can understand, and tells them why they should care. I'm going to give it an overall thumbs up and let the rest of y'all hammer out the details 

[Polymer]

Not sure why he writes about Topre either...By his own admission he's only used them for a short period of time...I think hours?

On the plus side, no more arguments about people only liking Topre because of how much it costs (because that isn't a factor) and I didn't see endless stuff about Ergodox...

[feizor]

For what it's worth, I thought the OP was a pretty good reference guide for the average keyboard novice.

[Oobly]

Fundamentally, I agree with the OP, it's a good reference for someone new to mechanicals and even gives useful info for the more experienced.

After some analysis, I find the primary difference in my views vs OP are with terminology. What he calls "holding" I would rather call "bottoming out with force". Piano keyboards and computer keyboards do differ a lot in terms of key mass, resistance, momentum, etc, but some of the techniques can carry over. His "strike and release" is my "stop applying force and finger tension before bottom out".

This is the second time piano technique has come up in a thread I'm participating in, and again I have to say that you should be able to apply some aspects, but certainly not the whole. Computer keyboards require a "quicker", lighter touch with less movement per strike (differences), but the wrists should be raised and straight and you should move your hands to facilitate the fingers reaching the keys (similarities). In tp's other thread about speed typing technique he mentions a snare drum technique called "rebound shots", which is also applicable to computer keyboards.

[tp4tissue]

Not sure why he writes about Topre either...By his own admission he's only used them for a short period of time...I think hours?

On the plus side, no more arguments about people only liking Topre because of how much it costs (because that isn't a factor) and I didn't see endless stuff about Ergodox...

I was not angry at the 87u itself,  I was most displeased with the Overhype that its received, which was what convinced me to get it..

I was promised, <keyboard revelation>   

I received..   quack....

It felt exactly like rubber dome..

I am willing to admit the quality and tolerances / design / technology is better..

But it was certainly NOT as advertised by fellow GH-members..


I recognize its merits as a keyboard, and I've included that in the write-up..

But I made sure to exclude the HYPE, which is unfounded..

[tp4tissue]

I'm going to stay out of the fights going on in this thread. I feel like I'm going to end up trapped in the crossfire and lose an ear, or something.


That being said, I like your writeup. It's written in a way that the average person can understand, and tells them why they should care. I'm going to give it an overall thumbs up and let the rest of y'all hammer out the details 

Don't worry Chromako..

I'm used to blue and jacob..

Jacob has been on me ever since the 4k monitor incident.. LOLOL

and Blue.. idk, probably something to do with topre..

[BlueNalgene]

I just got a little into the zone on fact checking.  I realized I was potentially creating drama so I'm withdrawing from the disagreements.

[jacobolus]

I'm used to blue and jacob.. Jacob has been on me ever since the 4k monitor incident.. LOLOL

I’m not trying to give you a hard time. (Well, maybe a little.)

I just think you often say things in a very authoritative/confident way without actually having terribly strong evidence to back you up. I do this too sometimes (which is why I notice it in other people), but when people call me out I try to get more precise about exactly what my evidence and reasoning is (or adding some hedges/caveats in cases where I’m just talking about my own personal opinions), instead of doubling down on certainty or dismissing the questions.

[tp4tissue]

@ Jacob..

The difference between You and me is that .. I AM an AUTHORITY, on all subjects pertaining to and listed below my avatar..

[ander]

[Oops—somehow I managed to double-post this, sorry.]

[ander]

As a piano player (50+ years, sigh), the piano metaphors have occurred to me here too.

I think the most useful transfer from piano to typing is the concept of involving the movement of your hands and upper arms, and not making your fingers do all the work. Mechanical KBs are just great for this—it's like they're made to be used this way.

Frederic Chopin created a school of piano technique based on progressively giving the upper body's larger pivoting parts (torso, upper arms, lower arms) the most work possible, as a means of supporting the hands—and only then, using the fingers for the smallest movements (as they have the smallest muscles).

It's similar to the algorithms that assembly-line robots use work efficiently. The biggest (strongest) pivots perform the largest parts of the movements, and smaller movements are delegated on down from there, resulting in the quickest, smoothest, most precise movements possible.

Most people who learn piano stay focused on which keys to press, and their awareness never goes beyond the fingers. Pianists who understand the bigger-body approach glide over the keyboard like they're dancing. Their fingers hardly need to move at all, and their playing is smooth and natural.

Of course a piano KB has a lot more area to cover than a computer KB, and you must always "bottom out" to make sound. But when you type, you can definitely benefit from the same awareness of movement and weight coming from your upper arms and hands. With a nice mechanical whose keys activate halfway down, this awareness of weight-distribution, lightness, and lack of finger-effort is the easiest way to type without bottoming out.

And IMHO, that—besides the sheer clicky goodness, of course—is the best thing about mechanical KBs.

[tp4tissue]

Here's why I don't think the upper body stuff really applies..

I'm not saying they're not applicable..  I'm just saying it's not practical..


In actual use of the keyboard.. because the keys are soft enough,  you will never need the momentum and power of the upper arm movement..


You CAN use it. such as the hover technique where you keep the wrist lifted.. This is ok for short bursts and speed runs, because it reduces key transition time..  but it's -unnecessarily- tiring if you're just intermittently using the keyboard over hours.


Also a major problem is the DESK even with a pull out tray is much higher than a piano keyboard..

That means to use upper arm movement with enough clearance, You have to lift at the shoulders... This is a huge contributor to RSI for some typists..

[jacobolus]

As a piano player (50+ years, sigh), the piano metaphors have occurred to me here too.

I think the most useful transfer from piano to typing is the concept of involving the movement of your hands and upper arms, and not making your fingers do all the work. Mechanical KBs are just great for this—it's like they're made to be used this way.

Yeah, no. (Or rather, if you think a standard keyboard can be used with mostly arm motion, I defy you to make a video showing someone typing fluently – say, >60wpm – which demonstrates this.)

With pianos, there are multiple different types of playing (which use different muscles and movements), depending on the musical phrases involved. First, when playing chords, the whole forearm is moved up and down, with pivot at the elbow (regardless of whether the chord is being played loud or soft; in particularly loud playing the whole arm or even the whole body can get involved in this motion). Second, many types of note progressions or alternations (especially of notes a few keys apart) can be played mostly with rotation of the whole forearm about its axis. Third, lots of tricky articulate passages are played mostly by flexing fingers at the joint at the base of the finger (there’s some argument about whether this is mainly done by the flexors or by the muscles directly in the hand (lumbricals, etc.), but anyway...).

With a computer keyboard, the vast majority of the keypress motion comes from flexing the fingers. It’s possible to get a bit of an assist on particular groups of letters from some whole hand movement, and with practice it’s possible to get some key presses (esp. e.g. spacebar presses) from forearm rotation, though I personally am skeptical that the latter has any benefit for healthy typists, but these are a minor part of fluent typing technique, when they occur at all.

The type and range of expression in typing vs. piano playing is totally different, and while there are potentially things to be learned from piano technique it shouldn’t be taken as a close analog.

I do think however that it’s useful to let the arms take some of the impact shock from keypresses, by “floating” the palms/wrists/arms rather than resting them on a surface.

[...] you must always "bottom out" [a piano key] to make sound.

This isn’t quite true. The piano key actuates noticeably before the bottom of its stroke. (It’s pretty close to the bottom though. I wonder if there’d be any advantage to building a piano where the keys had a bit more post-actuation travel. That would obviously be weird for pianists used to the current keys, but it might help a bit with avoiding impact shock.)

Here’s a video showing a nice model:

[Oobly]

...

Also a major problem is the DESK even with a pull out tray is much higher than a piano keyboard..

That means to use upper arm movement with enough clearance, You have to lift at the shoulders... This is a huge contributor to RSI for some typists..

It shouldn't be. It should at a similar height for best ergonomics. And it takes less effort to type when you use more muscle groups. Your wrists should be raised off any rests while you type.

If your desk is too high and you keep your wrists on the rest when you type it's likely you are not typing at maximum efficiency, don't have the best blood flow or wrist angles. You could also be compressing veins / arteries / tendons, etc in the wrists.

[BucklingSpring]

Don't just sit here and say alot about nothing..

The best popular switch "short form" descriptions in layman's terms I've seen.

Me like it.

[keyhopper]

It seems music keyboards tend to use rubber domes...

        http://www.oldcrows.net/~oldcrow/synth/korg/polysix/keyclean2.html

       

I wonder if all music keyboards do.. It's been a long time since I played my Roland XP 30, I might dig it up and take a look at the feel of the keys.

Cheers!

[tp4tissue]

...

Also a major problem is the DESK even with a pull out tray is much higher than a piano keyboard..

That means to use upper arm movement with enough clearance, You have to lift at the shoulders... This is a huge contributor to RSI for some typists..

It shouldn't be. It should at a similar height for best ergonomics. And it takes less effort to type when you use more muscle groups. Your wrists should be raised off any rests while you type.

If your desk is too high and you keep your wrists on the rest when you type it's likely you are not typing at maximum efficiency, don't have the best blood flow or wrist angles. You could also be compressing veins / arteries / tendons, etc in the wrists.

"It Should"  is the key here.

but it seldom " is "...

[Polymer]

I was not angry at the 87u itself,  I was most displeased with the Overhype that its received, which was what convinced me to get it..

I was promised, <keyboard revelation>   

I received..

Show Image

  quack....

It felt exactly like rubber dome..

I am willing to admit the quality and tolerances / design / technology is better..

But it was certainly NOT as advertised by fellow GH-members..


I recognize its merits as a keyboard, and I've included that in the write-up..

But I made sure to exclude the HYPE, which is unfounded..

For the longest time you were convinced the only reason people enjoyed Topre was because of the price it carried with it...I think we've safely put that to bed as untrue.

Also, you've only used it for a short period of time right?  I'm sure you feel that's all you really needed..but there are a lot of Topre users (including myself) that felt exactly the same as you did but just tried it a bit more to we could really see the differences in Topre vs. Cherry vs. regular rubber dome.  Some still ultimately decided they disliked it but many others have decided they indeed do like Topre...

[tp4tissue]

I was not angry at the 87u itself,  I was most displeased with the Overhype that its received, which was what convinced me to get it..

I was promised, <keyboard revelation>   

I received..

Show Image

  quack....

It felt exactly like rubber dome..

I am willing to admit the quality and tolerances / design / technology is better..

But it was certainly NOT as advertised by fellow GH-members..


I recognize its merits as a keyboard, and I've included that in the write-up..

But I made sure to exclude the HYPE, which is unfounded..

For the longest time you were convinced the only reason people enjoyed Topre was because of the price it carried with it...I think we've safely put that to bed as untrue.

Also, you've only used it for a short period of time right?  I'm sure you feel that's all you really needed..but there are a lot of Topre users (including myself) that felt exactly the same as you did but just tried it a bit more to we could really see the differences in Topre vs. Cherry vs. regular rubber dome.  Some still ultimately decided they disliked it but many others have decided they indeed do like Topre...

I still believe MANY people are keeping it due to the psychological need to ameliorate their internal conflict for having paid so much for a mere so-so experience.


The cause of which has nothing to do with the board itself,  merely the HYPE surrounding it.


The board is what it is..  and it does not carry any real technical advantage over cherry or any other keyboard that actuate at 2mm


You might like apples,  but the truth is, your body just cares that you got sugar and the vitamins..


So what do topre users get OUTSIDE of the 2mm actuation..

-Elite status-  expensive keyboard

-Weeaboo club membership-  other people who are equally irrationally enamored with Jpn




Let me clarify..  Topre isn't BAD.. it just simply does NOT measure up to the HYPE and Fandom that surrounds it here at GH and other keyboard forums..


Analogy..  Yea  Iphones are alrite,  but it isn't really gonna lay any golden eggs..  Yet to an apple isheep,  they probably have and/or would sell their first-born for the next device.

[Polymer]

I still believe MANY people are keeping it due to the psychological need to ameliorate their internal conflict for having paid so much for a mere so-so experience.

The cause of which has nothing to do with the board itself,  merely the HYPE surrounding it.

The board is what it is..  and it does not carry any real technical advantage over cherry or any other keyboard that actuate at 2mm

You might like apples,  but the truth is, your body just cares that you got sugar and the vitamins..

So what do topre users get OUTSIDE of the 2mm actuation..

-Elite status-  expensive keyboard

-Weeaboo club membership-  other people who are equally irrationally enamored with Jpn


Let me clarify..  Topre isn't BAD.. it just simply does NOT measure up to the HYPE and Fandom that surrounds it here at GH and other keyboard forums..

How are you arriving at the fact that it does not measure up to the HYPE? 

Or if we can break it down a bit, what is the hype around Topre?

From what I can tell, the hype is the enjoyment of using the switch.  What additional hype is there?  No one claims it has magical properties..No one claims it'll make you a faster typer than Cherry, or more accurate, or cure you of your ailments...It doesn't need to have a technical advantage...it might even be technically inferior..what does that have to do with enjoyment?

So you didn't enjoy your Topre experience..does that mean others do not?  Hard to comprehend right?  When others actually have a preference you do not?  And the only way you can actually explain that is to conclude they must be using some sort of flawed logic that convinces them that they like it...Or they've rationalized their purchase...Nevermind that unlike many other items, you can easily sell them for a minimal loss....

Or let's put this another way...

What do Cherry users get outside of a 2mm actuation?  Even Cherry users can't agree on which switch is better..sounds like it is pretty subjective right?   Surely the only advantage to Cherry can't be replacing keycaps can it?  Or maybe people enjoy using them?  Sounds a bit like Topre...Is that hype?

I'm sure after reading about how others enjoyed their Topre you had high expectations..and they weren't met, FOR YOU.  Unfortunately, you never really gave it much of a chance but either way, it really doesn't matter.  Just because Topre did not meet your expectations, that does not mean it doesn't meet the expectations of others...

[jacobolus]

What additional hype is there?  No one claims it has magical properties..No one claims it'll make you a faster typer than Cherry, or more accurate, or cure you of your ailments...

Pretty sure they do, actually. Have you ever looked in on one of those Topre circlejerk threads?

[Actually, I can totally buy that certain people can type faster and/or more accurately on Topre switches than some MX switches. The bounce on the upstroke is a tangible advantage.]

[foxer]

Topre doesn't feel like a familiar keyboard to me. Every rubber dome I've used in the past feels nothing like this, either.

[tp4tissue]

The Topre Circle Jerk is real..


It's extremely prevalent as well, and despite all the ill-willed goo...  if enough of it gets on a novice reader,  he may be convinced of the Propaganda..


I've taken up the task of evaluating keyboards Objectively.. And have thus presented my findings..


I also believe there is no one on GH more of a qualified Machine than I am.. 

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm starting to think that tp4tissue is Ripster's sock puppet.

[tp4tissue]

I'm starting to think that tp4tissue is Ripster's sock puppet.

I am quite honored to be compared to #1 keyboard expert on the planet..


However.. While I may exceed him in actually using a keyboard.. I do not have his incite and irrational obsession of the object itself...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You're rapidly approaching his level of delusion though.