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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: lee+ on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:29:24

Title: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:29:24
Hey,

I just found, by pure chance, a brand new IBM Model M on ebay and spontaneously bought it.  I can't believe it, that's like the find of a lifetime :))

It's from 1997, but hey.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: romevi on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:32:26
Just messaged the seller saying I can offer double it, and s/he agreed. They'll be canceling your order in a bit.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:33:59
Just messaged the seller saying I can offer double it, and s/he agreed. They'll be canceling your order in a bit.
:eek:
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: chyros on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:39:30
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare :p .
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:44:39
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare :p .

Sure they are.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 20 June 2016, 21:02:15
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare

Model Ms "clean up" very well, new is not a particularly important criteria. And the one "New-in-Box" specimen that I bought had half its rivets broken, anyway.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Fullcream on Mon, 20 June 2016, 21:34:00
cool! I am excited for you!
always wanted a model m for a decent price
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: klennkellon on Tue, 21 June 2016, 01:54:40
Model M's are great.

Mine is from 1987, get on my level xD
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: demik on Tue, 21 June 2016, 02:02:55
Smh u dudes just ****ting on op's dreams.

OP DO YOU BOOBOO. U GET THAT EXTREMELY LOUD AND ANNOYING KEYBOARD AND ENJOY THE **** OUT OF IT.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: chyros on Tue, 21 June 2016, 03:10:08
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare :p .

Sure they are.
Clicky, Orihalcon and Cindy seem to find a reasonably number between them :) .
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Bucake on Tue, 21 June 2016, 03:37:44
yeah well, it helps to know where to look. they're veterans and it's their business, which changes everything

anyway, personally i think NIB is worth some extra cash. no scratches or dirt, no damage (except for maybe rivets)
i gladly pay extra to get something unused

enjoy your fresh model m!
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: QuincyJones on Tue, 21 June 2016, 06:49:39
"New" on eBay and from 1997... Suuuure!
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 07:12:53
 :thumb:
Enjoy it. I just got a model m terminal keyboard from GreyAmbience - They're so cool. I just need to find a way to hook it up to a modern pc, or get a really really old one. :D
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Tue, 21 June 2016, 07:38:36
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare :p .

Sure they are.
Clicky, Orihalcon and Cindy seem to find a reasonably number between them :) .

And yet they're still rare.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:33:23
:thumb:
Enjoy it. I just got a model m terminal keyboard from GreyAmbience - They're so cool. I just need to find a way to hook it up to a modern pc, or get a really really old one. :D
If it's a terminal keyboard, you need a matching terminal and a really, really big computer. (https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/images/p_2423PH3165.jpg)
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:40:01
:thumb:
Enjoy it. I just got a model m terminal keyboard from GreyAmbience - They're so cool. I just need to find a way to hook it up to a modern pc, or get a really really old one. :D
If it's a terminal keyboard, you need a matching terminal and a really, really big computer.
Show Image
(https://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/images/p_2423PH3165.jpg)

No way to convert it to modern pcs?

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk

Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: mike52787 on Tue, 21 June 2016, 09:49:45

No way to convert it to modern pcs?

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RJ45-to-USB-Soarers-Converter-Model-M-Terminal-Keyboard-Remapping-Macros-/281476431381?hash=item41894d7e15:g:wwYAAOSwF1dUSZVm (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RJ45-to-USB-Soarers-Converter-Model-M-Terminal-Keyboard-Remapping-Macros-/281476431381?hash=item41894d7e15:g:wwYAAOSwF1dUSZVm)
This should get you where you want to go
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 17:28:46
They are so rare here that I've never seen a new one, not even when they were still made.  I've also never seen one showing up on ebay here before, only one or two in the US with high prices being asked for.

I even wonder how and where anyone got them.  It's not like you could buy them in stores.  How were they sold?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Tue, 21 June 2016, 18:12:44
They are so rare here that I've never seen a new one, not even when they were still made.  I've also never seen one showing up on ebay here before, only one or two in the US with high prices being asked for.

I even wonder how and where anyone got them.  It's not like you could buy them in stores.  How were they sold?
I understand that PC Model M keyboards came in a box with a PS/2 purchase, but IBM rarely sold them alone.  So, if you bought a PS/2,  like my uncle did in 1990, it's likely that you have a Model M with it; however, unless the user felt inclined to use another keyboard with his new computer, the Model M is likely to have been used by now.  The Mini-DIN port also encouraged many users to use the keyboard that came with their purchase, since most existing keyboards had an AT-style connector. 

Of course, if one were an IBM dealer, the story is wholly different. 
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 18:55:39
As far as I can tell, not many ppl here bought IBM.  One reason probably was that their stuff was even more expensive than the alternatives.  IBM has never been really noticeable here.  You might find Siemens Nixdorf, Nixdorf, some brands nobody remembers, Schneider, even a VAX which a company would use to compile instructions for CNC machines, run some simulations on and then create punch strips that were fed into the CNC machines.  But IBM?  Ppl knew that IBM existed and was manufacturing computers nobody ever got to see or buy.

If you needed a PS/2 keyboard, you would either buy an adapter or a rubber board, or a rubber board would come with a computer you bought.  I'm still annoyed by this stupid PS/2:  You can hot-plug a keyboard with DIN connector, but you can't do that with PS/2.  You can hot-plug serial mice, too.  Now who would want to have to turn off their computer just to plug in, or unplug, a keyboard or a mouse?  That is so retarded :((
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: romevi on Tue, 21 June 2016, 19:11:19
As far as I can tell, not many ppl here bought IBM.  One reason probably was that their stuff was even more expensive than the alternatives.  IBM has never been really noticeable here.  You might find Siemens Nixdorf, Nixdorf, some brands nobody remembers, Schneider, even a VAX which a company would use to compile instructions for CNC machines, run some simulations on and then create punch strips that were fed into the CNC machines.  But IBM?  Ppl knew that IBM existed and was manufacturing computers nobody ever got to see or buy.

If you needed a PS/2 keyboard, you would either buy an adapter or a rubber board, or a rubber board would come with a computer you bought.  I'm still annoyed by this stupid PS/2:  You can hot-plug a keyboard with DIN connector, but you can't do that with PS/2.  You can hot-plug serial mice, too.  Now who would want to have to turn off their computer just to plug in, or unplug, a keyboard or a mouse?  That is so retarded :((

What the heck? Everyone here knows and loves IBM, and many own a Model M or F or beam spring. It's probably just not as discussed much these days because kustoms and artisan caps are all the rage.

But back when I lurked in 2010 the overwhelming view here was IBM was king, so that's why I bought my first mechanical: a Model M.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ninjadoc on Tue, 21 June 2016, 19:57:06
Hey,

I just found, by pure chance, a brand new IBM Model M on ebay and spontaneously bought it.  I can't believe it, that's like the find of a lifetime :))

It's from 1997, but hey.


Hey, enjoy your Model M!
fohat.digs is the man to ask questions to about it if you have any
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Tue, 21 June 2016, 23:50:13

No way to convert it to modern pcs?

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RJ45-to-USB-Soarers-Converter-Model-M-Terminal-Keyboard-Remapping-Macros-/281476431381?hash=item41894d7e15:g:wwYAAOSwF1dUSZVm (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-RJ45-to-USB-Soarers-Converter-Model-M-Terminal-Keyboard-Remapping-Macros-/281476431381?hash=item41894d7e15:g:wwYAAOSwF1dUSZVm)
This should get you where you want to go
Thank you kindly, sir!
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Wed, 22 June 2016, 15:47:11
It has arrived!

It /is/ new.  It's heavy.  It comes in it's original box.  It's shiny.

I never knew they looked that good when new.  This makes it even less understandable why they ever stopped making them.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 22 June 2016, 15:50:08

why they ever stopped making them.


"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Wed, 22 June 2016, 15:53:00
As far as I can tell, not many ppl here bought IBM.  One reason probably was that their stuff was even more expensive than the alternatives.  IBM has never been really noticeable here.  You might find Siemens Nixdorf, Nixdorf, some brands nobody remembers, Schneider, even a VAX which a company would use to compile instructions for CNC machines, run some simulations on and then create punch strips that were fed into the CNC machines.  But IBM?  Ppl knew that IBM existed and was manufacturing computers nobody ever got to see or buy.

If you needed a PS/2 keyboard, you would either buy an adapter or a rubber board, or a rubber board would come with a computer you bought.  I'm still annoyed by this stupid PS/2:  You can hot-plug a keyboard with DIN connector, but you can't do that with PS/2.  You can hot-plug serial mice, too.  Now who would want to have to turn off their computer just to plug in, or unplug, a keyboard or a mouse?  That is so retarded :((

What the heck? Everyone here knows and loves IBM, and many own a Model M or F or beam spring. It's probably just not as discussed much these days because kustoms and artisan caps are all the rage.

But back when I lurked in 2010 the overwhelming view here was IBM was king, so that's why I bought my first mechanical: a Model M.

Well, first you have to get one.  Sure you get them off ebay nowadays, and you did in 2010.

But what about 1985+?  Ebay probably never manufactured any, so where do the ones you can get now come from in the first place?

I know they come from IBM, and nobody bought IBM, and you never found them in shops.  Their origin  remains a mystery.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Wed, 22 June 2016, 15:55:23

why they ever stopped making them.


"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: emdude on Wed, 22 June 2016, 15:58:43
Ebay probably never manufactured any ....

o_O
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Wed, 22 June 2016, 16:07:22
Ebay probably never manufactured any ....

o_O

Well, I can't tell for sure, can you? :)
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 22 June 2016, 16:13:21

They are not the same, though.


That has been a topic of extremely heated debate for years and is entirely dependent on the definition of "the same".
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: romevi on Wed, 22 June 2016, 16:15:45
I am









confused.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: emdude on Wed, 22 June 2016, 16:23:09
Same. ^-^


They are not the same, though.


That has been a topic of extremely heated debate for years and is entirely dependent on the definition of "the same".

Functionally, they are the same.  As far as materials used and QA are concerned, they are not.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ander on Wed, 22 June 2016, 16:59:06
Hey... I just found, by pure chance, a brand new IBM Model M on ebay and spontaneously bought it... It's from 1997, but hey.

So what part number is it? I'm guessing it's one of the later Lexmarks (e.g. 42H1292, 52G9658, 82G2383, 92G7453) with the flat, attached cable and monochrome legends.

I think the later Lexmarks are particularly delightful to type on. The earlier IBM-made M's are great, too, but they tend to be quieter (relatively speaking!) and more tank-like. It's fun to have a later M, too, that really clicks and clanks.

You should post some photos here when you get it.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Thu, 23 June 2016, 15:07:54
Hey... I just found, by pure chance, a brand new IBM Model M on ebay and spontaneously bought it... It's from 1997, but hey.

So what part number is it? I'm guessing it's one of the later Lexmarks (e.g. 42H1292, 52G9658, 82G2383, 92G7453) with the flat, attached cable and monochrome legends.

I think the later Lexmarks are particularly delightful to type on. The earlier IBM-made M's are great, too, but they tend to be quieter (relatively speaking!) and more tank-like. It's fun to have a later M, too, that really clicks and clanks.

You should post some photos here when you get it.

Perhaps I get around to take some pictures on the weekend; I have at least two keyboards I want to take pictures of.

Part number, let's see ... 1391403, 19-03-97, Made in United Kingdom by IBM United Kingdom Limited, Greenook, Schotland UK

There's also what seems to be a signature of who ever did the quality control on the sticker, in red.

The cable is unfortunately not detachable and goes out at the left side.  It seems to me that the keys are unusually light to press for a Model M, especially when compared to the Unicomp.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Fri, 24 June 2016, 12:37:38
The cable is unfortunately not detachable and goes out at the left side.  It seems to me that the keys are unusually light to press for a Model M, especially when compared to the Unicomp.

You can fix that with with one of Phosphor Glow's drop in USB replacement controllers.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Fri, 24 June 2016, 18:22:41
The cable is unfortunately not detachable and goes out at the left side.  It seems to me that the keys are unusually light to press for a Model M, especially when compared to the Unicomp.

You can fix that with with one of Phosphor Glow's drop in USB replacement controllers.

That would make it sluggish like any USB keyboard.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Fri, 24 June 2016, 18:57:45
That would make it sluggish like any USB keyboard.

Huh?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Fri, 24 June 2016, 20:54:08
That would make it sluggish like any USB keyboard.

Huh?
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Fri, 24 June 2016, 21:49:13
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Fri, 24 June 2016, 22:22:27
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't. 
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Fri, 24 June 2016, 22:41:35
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't.
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Fri, 24 June 2016, 23:08:53
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't.
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?
I'm someone who cares about the keyboard but not the mouse. 
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Fri, 24 June 2016, 23:13:25
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't.
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?
I'm someone who cares about the keyboard but not the mouse.
Ah so I'm not alone in that, that's always nice to find out. :D
HIGH FIVE BUDDY!
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: mike52787 on Fri, 24 June 2016, 23:15:44
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't.
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?
I'm someone who cares about the keyboard but not the mouse.
Ah so I'm not alone in that, that's always nice to find out. :D
HIGH FIVE BUDDY!
Me too man, I have some ****ty 30$ gaming mouse next to the custom 60% that cost about 6 times that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: klennkellon on Fri, 24 June 2016, 23:44:38

why they ever stopped making them.


"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.
No they aren't but where else are you going to get a keyboard with a unique switch and thick dye-sub PBT keycaps for under $90 xD
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 07:38:17
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.

Are you saying that keyboards don't have buffers anymore?

USB keyboards are slow to respond.  If that is a problem depends on what you consider a problem.  I do notice that there is a delay between pressing a key and something happening when I use an USB keyboard.  PS/2 keyboards do not have this delay.  This doesn't merely apply to games, it applies to the overall responsiveness of my computer, and it annoys me when the response is sluggish.

To give you an example, install a slow graphics card and do some web browsing and all kinds of other things you usually do for a week or two.  Then install a fast graphics card and do the same things as before.  You will notce a difference in overall responsiveness.  That is like the difference between an USB keyboard and a PS/2 (or DIN) keyboard.

Some ppl might not notice it at all.  I do.  You probably wouldn't believe how delighted I was when I switched from the USB Unicomp to the Omron keyboard I'm using now just because it's so much more responsive.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:00:36
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Moistgun on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:01:26
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.
I don't think it really matters, but hardcore gamers are particular about their equipment. 

Sometimes they can make some sense, such as changing the activation distance of switches, but other times, they don't.
Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

Sent from my local payphone

Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: SBJ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:06:34
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.
A trackball for gaming tho?

Sent from my stinky butt.

Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: mike52787 on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:09:37
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.
A trackball for gaming tho?

Sent from my stinky butt.
trackball for gaming sounds really ****ty. Ive tried a microsoft optical trackball and I cant get used to it. I used it for afew days until I just unplugged it and went back to the mouse. carpal tunnel can suck my ****
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Moistgun on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:24:15
I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.
A trackball for gaming tho?

Sent from my stinky butt.
trackball for gaming sounds really ****ty. Ive tried a microsoft optical trackball and I cant get used to it. I used it for afew days until I just unplugged it and went back to the mouse. carpal tunnel can suck my ****
It takes more than a couple days to get used to it.  That's what this is all about.  Not which is best or worst.  It's what you are most comfortable with. I can't play fps with a trackball better than a mouse because I have jittery hands, but I can play many genres with a trackball as good or better than with a controller or a mouse.

That doesn't mean anyone else would switch to that and do just as good.

It's all about what you like.

Sent from my local payphone

Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:29:26

why they ever stopped making them.


"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.
No they aren't but where else are you going to get a keyboard with a unique switch and thick dye-sub PBT keycaps for under $90 xD

That they come at a reasonable price still doesn't make them the same.

I care about how well a keyboard serves its purpose, and that includes more than just the typing on it.  I've been using Model Ms since the early 1990s, the first one being made in 1986.  I have also typed on electrical typewriters made by IBM, and those had excellent keyboards.   Any keyboard has to meet expectations formed by that.  The Model M I got last week is made in 1997, and it is also not the same as earlier ones.

It's really sad that the quality of most things is declining so rapidly over the years.  Nowadays they build cars that cost about 50000 and don't even have decent heating.  If I had bought that new, I wouldn't have put up with that.  Decent heating for cars is even required by law here.  Yet once we're forced to use electrical cars which will cost twice that, we probably won't have any heating at all.  So you can't really say it's about how much quality costs.

I never had a problem with keycaps wearing out, though.  Perhaps some ppl have finger tips like sand paper? ;)
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: mike52787 on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:35:28

why they ever stopped making them.


"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.
No they aren't but where else are you going to get a keyboard with a unique switch and thick dye-sub PBT keycaps for under $90 xD

That they come at a reasonable price still doesn't make them the same.

I care about how well a keyboard serves its purpose, and that includes more than just the typing on it.  I've been using Model Ms since the early 1990s, the first one being made in 1986.  I have also typed on electrical typewriters made by IBM, and those had excellent keyboards.   Any keyboard has to meet expectations formed by that.  The Model M I got last week is made in 1997, and it is also not the same as earlier ones.

It's really sad that the quality of most things is declining so rapidly over the years.  Nowadays they build cars that cost about 50000 and don't even have decent heating.  If I had bought that new, I wouldn't have put up with that.  Decent heating for cars is even required by law here.  Yet once we're forced to use electrical cars which will cost twice that, we probably won't have any heating at all.  So you can't really say it's about how much quality costs.

I never had a problem with keycaps wearing out, though.  Perhaps some ppl have finger tips like sand paper? ;)
The only issue ive ever had with keycaps was wearing off pad printing. As for model m quality declining, The newest M ive used was a '93 1401. There was a pretty big difference in keyfeel between it and my '87 0131. the '93 1401 was pretty well used though. I was thinking about scoring a unicomp 122, but I realized for about 50$ more I can get a f122. unicomp has its place in the market, but it sure isnt for me.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:36:10

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.
A trackball for gaming tho?

How could anyone play a game with a mouse when the mouse is required for steering?

I admit that I can't play games that require Elite type steering with a trackball.  That just does require a good joystick --- which you can't find anymore since over two decades.  I wouldn't even consider trying with a mouse, Elite type steering or not.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:40:03
PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78 (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/VT78.jpg). That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.

Are you saying that keyboards don't have buffers anymore?

USB keyboards are slow to respond.  If that is a problem depends on what you consider a problem.  I do notice that there is a delay between pressing a key and something happening when I use an USB keyboard.  PS/2 keyboards do not have this delay.  This doesn't merely apply to games, it applies to the overall responsiveness of my computer, and it annoys me when the response is sluggish.

To give you an example, install a slow graphics card and do some web browsing and all kinds of other things you usually do for a week or two.  Then install a fast graphics card and do the same things as before.  You will notce a difference in overall responsiveness.  That is like the difference between an USB keyboard and a PS/2 (or DIN) keyboard.

Some ppl might not notice it at all.  I do.  You probably wouldn't believe how delighted I was when I switched from the USB Unicomp to the Omron keyboard I'm using now just because it's so much more responsive.

Nope, I'm am most certainly not saying that keyboards don't have buffers.

Are you saying that you notice a delay on USB keyboards vs PS/2 keyboards when merely typing? If so, I applaud your superhuman skills!

Note: I do understand the difference between USB & PS/2 in regards to NKRO, USB polling and PS/2 interrupts. Other than NKRO, I don't think most people other than you notice anything.

If the USB delay is so significant, why isn't there a market for PCIe cards with a PS/2 interface? I would think there would be a huge market for such a card for gamers where every picosecond counts.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:43:50
Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Moistgun on Sun, 26 June 2016, 08:50:30
Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?
2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:08:25
Are you saying that you notice a delay on USB keyboards vs PS/2 keyboards when merely typing? If so, I applaud your superhuman skills!

If the USB delay is so significant, why isn't there a market for PCIe cards with a PS/2 interface? I would think there would be a huge market for such a card for gamers where every picosecond counts.

I do notice.

There probably is a market.  Only almost nobody has ventured into it yet.

Other than that, I don't understand why any of these gamers would want an USB keyboard for gaming.  I don't understand either why PS/2 was invented because you can't hotplug it as you could with DIN and serial connectors.  Being hotpluggable is the only advantage that USB has, and that's only over PS/2.


If you want a card:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/PCI-Controller-2x-USB-2-0-2x-PS-2-e853-/310405066372?hash=item4845956e84:g:H9oAAOSwDN1URdsR


I wonder if that's real PS/2 ports or merely an adapter to USB, though.  I definitely want PS/2 and at least one serial port when looking for a mainboard or a computer to buy.  (You can't reasonably configure a switch or a router without a console cable, and they are serial.)
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:19:00
Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?
2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.

I know it's not the type of connection that limits how many keys you can press at once.

I suppose it would take four fingers pressing one key each to run diagonally and switch a weapon while reloading it.  (Try switching a weapon while reloading it in rl ...)  Do you really press more than 2 keys at really the same time to do that?  I can see pressing two keys at the same time to run diagonally.  I don't run diagonally like that, though, I run into some direction and steer with the trackball.  I don't remember a game that required one to run precisely diagonally as you only could with the keys.

I can play Descent on a Model M just fine.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Moistgun on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:19:58
Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?
2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.

I know it's not the type of connection that limits how many keys you can press at once.

I suppose it would take four fingers pressing one key each to run diagonally and switch a weapon while reloading it.  (Try switching a weapon while reloading it in rl ...)  Do you really press more than 2 keys at really the same time to do that?  I can see pressing two keys at the same time to run diagonally.  I don't run diagonally like that, though, I run into some direction and steer with the trackball.  I don't remember a game that required one to run precisely diagonally as you only could with the keys.

I can play Descent on a Model M just fine.
CSGO
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: E TwentyNine on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:22:48
On modern hardware and OS, the responsiveness of a keyboard is due way more to the switch, controller and the hardware the keyboard is attached to than USB vs PS/2.   Most professional gamers use USB keyboards.

Practically speaking, all else being equal you won't notice a difference between USB and PS/2.

And most people don't even know what 2KRO means much less how it may impact their setup.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:34:53
I do notice.

There probably is a market.  Only almost nobody has ventured into it yet.

Other than that, I don't understand why any of these gamers would want an USB keyboard for gaming.  I don't understand either why PS/2 was invented because you can't hotplug it as you could with DIN and serial connectors.  Being hotpluggable is the only advantage that USB has, and that's only over PS/2.


If you want a card:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/PCI-Controller-2x-USB-2-0-2x-PS-2-e853-/310405066372?hash=item4845956e84:g:H9oAAOSwDN1URdsR


I wonder if that's real PS/2 ports or merely an adapter to USB, though.  I definitely want PS/2 and at least one serial port when looking for a mainboard or a computer to buy.  (You can't reasonably configure a switch or a router without a console cable, and they are serial.)

My motherboard has a PS/2 port, so I'll hook up one of my Model Ms at the same time as my Phantom and see if I notice anything.

I'd guess IBM was going for a smaller connector and the ability to use a non-serial mouse without needing a card card in the computer. PS/2 is electrically the same as the older AT / DIN connector and neither was designed to be hotpluggable. You could usually get away with doing it, but it was certainly not advisable.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 09:59:06
If professional gamers use USB keyboards, then why do they do that?  Is it because they are more easily available or because USB has advantages?  If it has advantages, which are they?

I need to correct myself, though.  USB also has the advantage that you can have more devices connected at the same time.


If there is no difference between DIN and PS/2, how come you never get away with hotplugging  PS/2?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: UnFocused on Sun, 26 June 2016, 10:37:35
If there is no difference between DIN and PS/2, how come you never get away with hotplugging  PS/2?

You can get away with hotplugging PS/2 and AT/DIN, but that does not mean you should because it was never designed for hotplugging and there's a risk to doing so.

I've done it without problem. I've done it and had to reboot the machine to get the computer to recognize the keyboard. I've seen motherboards with blown controller chips from people who tried to do it.

My current (2015) motherboard has a PS/2 port, but I've never used it. Prior to my current build, I made sure to buy motherboards with PS/2 ports because I was exclusively using Model M keyboards and I liked plugging them directly in without a PS/2 to USB adapter. I now have a Phosphor Glow controller in one of my M's and a Teensy in my Model F. I simply have no need for PS/2 any longer and no longer care about that antiquated port.

For the vast majority of people, USB is far superior to PS/2.

 





Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: lee+ on Sun, 26 June 2016, 12:50:45
I never got away with hotplugging PS/2 and never had a problem doing it with DIN.

USB is not superior to PS/2.  It's a different way of connecting devices, with its own disadvantages and advantages.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ander on Sat, 02 July 2016, 02:57:42
And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Sat, 02 July 2016, 12:06:02
And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.
I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: mike52787 on Sat, 02 July 2016, 21:53:01
And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.
I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: romevi on Sun, 03 July 2016, 11:50:15
And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.
I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

It's BS.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: 1391406 on Sun, 03 July 2016, 12:30:24
Buckling Spring was never an impediment to my playing BF4.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: chyros on Sun, 03 July 2016, 13:13:50
Buckling Spring was never an impediment to my playing BF4.
BS is okay for most genres of games including mid-requirement ones like FPS games. I've found them quite lacking in games with high precision requirements though, especially fighting and racing games. I think Super Meat Boy wasn't all that easy to play on them either IIRC.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: dante on Sun, 03 July 2016, 14:26:19
Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare :p .

The word "rare" gets thrown around a lot.  Rare should mean, here is a big suitcase of cash if you can find me item ABC.  No?  Well then it's rare!
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: klennkellon on Sun, 03 July 2016, 15:39:24
I can't stand gaming on a Model M so I just use these Matias for everything now. The 2KRO, heavy weight, and click, all annoy me during my intense games of TF2.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: Moistgun on Sun, 03 July 2016, 16:50:45
I can't stand gaming on a Model M so I just use these Matias for everything now. The 2KRO, heavy weight, and click, all annoy me during my intense games of TF2.
Do you work for Mathias lol.  You should rep for them
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 03 July 2016, 17:45:48

The word "rare" gets thrown around a lot.  Rare should mean, here is a big suitcase of cash if you can find me item ABC.  No?  Well then it's rare!

My minimal definition of "rare" is:

Does an item such as this turn up for sale on ebay more than once a month (quarter/year/decade)?

If the answer is "yes" then it may be "scarce" or "desirable" but it is certainly not "rare" ....
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ander on Wed, 06 July 2016, 04:29:01
I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.

Good point. There are games that hinge on rapidly repeated key presses (so-called "key mashers"), for which BS boards would probably not be ideal tools. But games like those clearly lack the subtlety that generally appeals to BS users in the first place. For example, there must be some BS boards that are used in trailer parks, but they're going to be the exception.


I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)


It's BS.

BS on springs! There's a good cartoon idea. Only KB maniacs would get it, though.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 06 July 2016, 07:55:38
\
a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker.

I am not a gamer, but Fs are NKRO and Ms are limited in rollover.
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ander on Thu, 07 July 2016, 02:51:17
Imagine those guys in white shirts and ties not putting gamers first back in the '80s... What were they thinking?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: y11971alex on Thu, 07 July 2016, 03:19:04
I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.

Good point. There are games that hinge on rapidly repeated key presses (so-called "key mashers"), for which BS boards would probably not be ideal tools. But games like those clearly lack the subtlety that generally appeals to BS users in the first place. For example, there must be some BS boards that are used in trailer parks, but they're going to be the exception.


I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)
:eek: Are there such people? 

Did IBM users perceive a downgrade when they unboxed shiny new PS/2 and binned their PC/AT?
Title: Re: I can't believe it
Post by: ander on Thu, 07 July 2016, 03:32:07
Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)


:eek: Are there such people? 

Yes, and their name is Snowdog993.  :?)

Did IBM users perceive a downgrade when they unboxed shiny new PS/2 and binned their PC/AT?

I vaguely remember sensing that, but the AT's increased capabilities were sufficiently distracting. And for many, the M's more "up-to-date" look may have created the impression it was newer technology (which it was, technically).