mmm... no pictures?Got the pics going, I think.
I see them now. To start off a discussion, is the plate going to be exposed to air directly? How does UHMW work that you've chosen that top part design (no top piece with blockers between each cluster)?mmm... no pictures?Got the pics going, I think.
Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?
The case material is pretty interesting.Got Fusion 360 back up. Local renders will take about 20 minutes each on my laptop, but I'm very tired (3:30 am here and gotta be up at 5:30am).
I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.
Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?
UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.
Looks interesting.
What typing angle are you planning?
Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?
Thanks!
Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.
Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?
Injection molding is obv used for keyboards
Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap
This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.
Quite interesting. I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.
Completely unfamiliar with UHMW. You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it. I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well? I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches. A case like that would be very cool.
interested, curious to see more about the material
also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.
Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.
Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?
UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.
Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.
The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.
I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?
I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!
Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL
As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates. I'll be very interested to see protos.
You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?
Quite interesting. I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.
Completely unfamiliar with UHMW. You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it. I think I know the stuff you're talking about. Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well? I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches. A case like that would be very cool.
Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?
As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates. I'll be very interested to see protos.
Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL
Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast ;) )
Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.
I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.
The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard. The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it. The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work. I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then :thumb:.
Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.
My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.
Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.
Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?
The name sucks
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress. A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.
Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore. We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.
I like the idea a lot, and it seems like you're passionate about this. The name sucks but the board looks like it'll be pretty good. I'm partial to brass or carbon fiber plate due to plastic warping. Something stiff for the top piece to anchor to might be helpful. 27 and I experimented with it a bit when we were working on a plastic board (that project is long dead) and it seemed to be helpful.
Of course, the issue with carbon is getting it cut in the US costs an arm and a leg, which is why I wasn't planning on offering them in my iteration of the Alice plate GB.
A couple of thoughts. I'm not clear on whether or not a non-wkl version will be offered, but I'd like a regular tkl option. Also, would it be possible to mix and match the top and bottom case colors? I think it would look nice to have a black top with white bottom for rgb diffusion personally.
The name sucks
Guess you didn't read the "sappy" part of the OP where he explains the reasons behind the name? (Or you did, and don't mind insulting his wife, in which case... :-X)
My guess is that he was referring to the UHMWWKLTKL part of it. Or at least I hope so.
And yes. Mixing and matching black/white will be possible. Just realize, they'll have different bottoms (with different purposes).
Out of curiosity, what colors/opacities does UHMW come in? White is already an uncommon color for keyboards, but it might be cool to have a translucent version or something.
interested ! (WK - Mix n Match ) would be nice.
Would be great if you post a self review - tolerances, sounds etc, when you get your prototype.
Would there be other colors offered for the top ?
Wow this looks amazing! I love the idea of a rugged keyboard that can take a beating.
Do you have a rough idea as to how much the case and plate will weigh?
Really digging the board's design! Sorry if this is a stupid question but looking at the renders, where would the usb port be?
I've just realized that A87 is miniUSB. Do you know of any compatible PCB that has USB-C? It'd be a shame to have such nice board end up with an old connector. Would KBD8X PCB fit?I know nothing about the KBD8X PCB, but I'll look into it. Honestly, I still like mini-USB. I've had overcurrent issues with a couple USB-C PCBs. Never had an issue like that with mini-USB. But I understand many people wanting to move to one cable for everything and not having to look at orientation when plugging in.
Would be nice to have metal plates to go with this as well (alu/sts/brass). Maybe not as part of main GB, but if the plate files were released someone else could run it.Plate files will definitely be released. I'll be testing out different plate materials on it. The ones that I like the best will come standard. I love it when "base kit" for a board has two different plates, so I want to do that with the Irma.
I was considering doing switch top opening; then remembered that I hate it, so no switch top opening.
Thanks for the update, appreciate you're sticking to your word about communication ;-)Sound dampening is one of the advertised characteristics of UHMW.
Don't know how THE50 USB slot works, but you're right about lining up the cable, it's happened to me already that I jammed the USB-C under the port, KBD75 has way too large cutout.
As for the sound, what do you think about using silenced switches in this board? A good idea that'll make them more silent than resonating aluminium, or heretical nonsense that ignores the point of the board?
Interesting material! Would love to see how light diffuses in a prototype compared to sandblasted Polycarb or acrylic1. Split backspace is provided. Hineybush's H87a PCB has it and the plate accommodates it.
Two wishes:
1. Split backspace (I'm a HHKB user)
2. Top option to remove the left WKL blocker
I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!
I think I saw you say something about a halfplate? but if you do plan on doing it (probably if you even don't) im in!!!
Honestly, I don’t have a half plate board. But I DO plan on trying it out with the prototype
Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?
Late Update (sorry):
Manufacturer has the files. Files have been updated to "help" the manufacturer meet tolerances.
Case options you'll be able to choose (mix and match):
-TOP - WKL or WK; black or white
-BOTTOM - Stepped/rounded bottom or angled wide bottom (thicker);second option has brass weight. UHMW insert included to fill gap when you don't want the brass weight.
Plates:
-So I need your opinions, please. GASKET MOUNT. Should I do it? I can get a supplier for gaskets, and the modifications to the case would pretty easy (I think). I don't see any downside to gasket mount. I recently had a (couple) Keycult 1/60, and the isolation on the plate is amazing. It feels like just the right amount of absorption without being "flexy" and inconsistent like using a softer material or half plate, etc.
Are you dead set on each color having a set shape? Because the black one is hands down way more sexy than the white one. Personally I'd love a white WK variant without brass in the shape of the black one... Maybe do an poll, if it wouldn't add too much manufacturing overhead?A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.
A poll would be good. I want to provide all the options, but yeah...$. I'll try to put one at the top like the Primus thread.There should be an "Add poll" button on the bottom of the page (next to Reply etc.)
Edit...uh, not sure how to add the poll. Any help?
Added a google survey form instead on OP
Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
The name of the material is UHMWPE, not UHMW.Polyethylene is classified by density and branching. There is nothing else I know of that commonly uses "UHMW" as its prefix, so if you say "UHMW," everyone knows you're referring to UHMWPE.
UHMW is the prefix which describes its characteristics, like LD, HD or Hi.
BTW, I effing hate polyethylene. Slick, and difficult to work with.
Wouldn't this be a slippery keyboard with frayed edges?Honestly, carbon fiber itself is CHEAP. Even in the US. It's the labor that companies charge insane prices for in the US, so basically **** those guys.The labour cost is not insane. There is a lot of labour.
I bought the carbon fiber and epoxy online for $35, and I had a bunch left over afterward. I still have it.
Also, professional carbon fibre pieces are made with a stronger resin, and cured in an autoclave: under heat and low pressure — not just laid down with laminating epoxy (for fibreglass).
Filled out the survey ;)Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?
awesome!Filled out the survey ;)Hopefully, the prototype can come by the end of next week. If all goes well, I want to test for at least 2 weeks, and if it feels and looks good, GB immediately after that.
When do you expect to get the prototype(s)? If everything goes smoothly (and I know it often doesn't), when do you expect the GB to happen?
Update:
Sifting through manufacturers. Prototype quotes are prohibitive in NorCal so far
For example, my latest quotes have been for almost $10K for a 3 day turnaround, or $7K for a one month turnaround... on a prototype. I want three. Others have just been making me wait, or lying about what they can do with the material.
So still looking. Also considering just figuring out how to get funds for a used Haas and do this myself.
In the meantime, I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.
Tolerances are the issue. If it doesn't work out for a plate or because of the blockers on the TKL face, then 100% I'm doing a 60% case. I don't like tray mount, though.
If tolerances work out, then I'm still 100% doing a 60/65% case.
Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.
Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.
Found a couple manufacturers that can do gas infusion injection molding.
The prototype may be the only CNC'd version then, if injection molding is the way, in order to not have to make multiple molds.
Also, someone mentioned recently that it's possible to sandblast and cerakote plastics. They have to see if it's possible with UHMW, but if it is, they'd be able to do cerakote finishes with stencils, fades, etc.
This has me really excited, and if it's even possible, I would love to offer colored versions.
Also, UHMW being already very abrasion resistant, Cerakote would be a perfect "paint" job to stay in line with that theme.
Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.
Cerakote requires heat treatment though, and I don't know if UHMW can stand up to the temperatures.
I know abs can take cerakote, at least the low temp version. I don't know the temperature characteristics of UHMW though. I think injection molding is pretty friggin awesome if that's the route we're going.So UHMW heat tolerance is about the same as ABS from what I've been told/read, which is at the bottom range of what is possible with Cerakote.
I’m making a 60% UHMW gasket mount in Fusion when I can. Family and work are kicking my butt, but this is going to happen. The more I mess with the sound of the material, the surer I am that it needs to be made into a keyboard case.
So, US manufacturer ✔ - out of California, but back to the Midwest, where I'm originally from. Prices are like a different planet.
Better renders ✔ - coming soon from Tesletron, who was an inspiration for this board in the first place with the Lumina, and its Corian case.
Plates in different materials ✔ - plate files will be posted, but the initial run, I plan to offer UHMW and brass. UHMW is very flexible at 1.5mm, but strong. Brass is brass.
When prototypes come in (hopefully soon), I'll be doing initial sound test comparison against my favorite sounding board--LZ CLS with STS plate--and my least favorite sounding board--CA66 with brass plate. I don't have a polycarbonate board on hand, so I'll be sending the prototypes to people who do.
The material is essentially what plastic cutting boards are made of. Someone suggested cutting vegetables on the back of one of the keyboards...
Send one to Taeha Types
Friday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.
It’s h87a thicc boi compatible, so it’ll work with the thin and alps as well. Again, I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plateFriday update:
*Prototype is ordered and paid for. 10 day lead time for production, then it's shipped to me.
*Hiney has agreed to help out with PCBs. If there are enough orders, you can just get the PCB through the group buy, rather than from a vendor like was originally planned.
*I've got design ideas for the weight, but I'm also a fan of zero branding. I could just put all the design stuff into the packaging. Please let me know what you'd prefer.
Wow, quick progress! Exciting development about the prototype. Looking forward to more soonTM...
So does that mean that h87a would be compatible? Or something completely custom?
As for the design, 0 branding is neat -- but I'd be open to anything that suits the designer's tastes.
I really like Alps in plastic, so I’ll see about an alps plate
Sorry I missed the update on Friday. Here's what's going on:
*Manufacturer gave it a go, and... not successful. Honestly, they rushed it. I got a refund. Yay on that.
*I'm trying a different manufacturer. But honestly, I'm already working on the files for injection molding.
The slow annealing is what's really necessary, I think.
But another option would be to incorporate an inner brace/skeleton. HDPE is strong and maintains tolerances easily, while still being translucent.
I can use a HDPE skeleton framework with notches into the upper case, so that it locks together at a bunch of different points. I don't know how that skeleton would affect sound, however.
Yeah cost is high, but like with carbon fiber, again I KNOW it's marked up for the attention to detail and trial & error that has to be done.
Even with fancy terms like "supercritical nitrogen-infused injection molding," it's really the multiple passes for press fits and guess-work for temperatures and flow rates that you're paying for. Time.
I need to have my hands literally ON the manufacturing. Like my own machines.
I've researched what I need, and I actually could do it on my own. Just need the $.
OK!Thanks for the update! I just read this thread for the first time and I'm going to keep following you for potential future cases 60% or smaller
My fault! I have been updating the Rukia thread here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=100216.300)
And it all pertains to the Irma project as well. BUT I should have kept updates in this thread also, even if just a hyperlink to the post in the other thread.
I am SO sorry for that. I didn't keep my word. I should have considered that people wouldn't necessarily be interested in both boards just because they're intended to be made of the same material. Different form factors, different interests.
Again, I apologize.
As for updates since the last post, I'll summarize:
Basically, UHMW has been too difficult for every manufacturer I've worked with to CNC. They either lie and say they can do it, then end up with warped prototypes that I have to get a refund for. Or they flat out tell me they won't work with the material. Or they give me unacceptable tolerances. Or they give size constraints due to the warping (no longer than 5").
Injection molding is the answer. But third party injection molding is way too expensive.
Nitrogen infusion is not as complicated as it sounds, though. And an injection molding set up, once done right is pretty easy to operate.
Highest costs are the machining done for the molds. It has to be an exact fit, so material has to be shaved off little by little, checking fit after each pass. That takes time and effort that fabs are going to charge a lot for.
My solution is that I should have my hands directly on the manufacturing...I should be the manufacturer.
So I'm using the Rukia (formerly plastic Alice) project to fund that endeavor. It's a polycarbonate Alice form factor for the first run, then UHMW down the line. Full carbon fiber sandwich is very likely coming sooner than anyone expects.
What I've come up against, though, is that for a first GB, I should keep numbers low to keep quality high. This also makes turnaround much faster, which is better for the buyers, but also lets me get moving on this--Irma--my first project.
Also, I made my profit margins waaay low because who am I? I haven't even done a successful GB yet.
But that leaves me with little to nothing to put into equipment and work space. I'm not intending a giant work shop or production floor like some kickstarters have attempted. I just need three machines and living room size work space to produce these keyboards.
So that's where we're at. Rukia GB is about to drop soon. Rukia will help make Irma happen. This has only really pushed plans back about 90 days, though. I won't let it be a killer setback.
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.This sounds awesome, and the colorway would look absolutely sick. Also, scheduled updates are best, thanks for doing those.
light pigment additive for pastel color options; i fw that heavy
Oh btw, another added benefit of doing injection molding is that I can mix my own proprietary blends for colors. Also, since it's a non-FDA application, I can add graphite for added antistatic protection.
1A8 rep
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah can we just get this made out of Ojoom slide pucks?
What I did was research how Lego does their draft angles, and it's pretty ingenious. I've incorporated this into my mold design. It's complicated and more expensive initially, but it'll be worth it for the final product and in the long run in terms of mold durability.
Still amazed this is moving forward. Year after year people say, “you can’t do injection molding, it’s way too expensive.” Really hope this works out. You have my money when the time comes. If you need to make a Kickstarter, you’ll have my money there too.