[IC] Irma (Survey Form Added)

[Jaxxstatic]

UHMW WKL/WK TKL
(Ultra High Molecular Weight plastic Winkeyless/Winkey Tenkeyless) keyboard

Working on better renders. Some of these are really old.


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**UPDATE: Survey form added. Please fill this out https://goo.gl/forms/ayiwiBF3Ppz1Yx5g2

Expected benefits of this new material:
SOUND
Weight/heft compared to other plastic cases
Durability compared to other plastic cases
RGB diffusion

What is UHMW?
It's really dense, very abrasion-resistant plastic. It's commonly found in cutting boards and used as mouse feet (the mouse in your hand, not in the cage).
It's also used in rifle round body armor protection and strung into threads for rope climbing. The most popular textile form of UHMW is Dyneema, so google that if you'd like. It's been used to make bags that float on water but hold hundreds of pounds.

Am I using it for any of that? No. My experience with the material is this:

These are sliding pucks for longboarding (skateboarding). It's also used as pucks for knee dragging in motorcycling.
That also gives shows you the common finish put on UHMW. It can be refined much smoother or textured, though.

I also like the light diffusion characteristics of it. Here's a video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OyYOz6rkE

Notes:
Mounting is topmount so far, but may switch to sandwich mount based on prototype.
No proprietary PCB planned. Will be based off Hineybush's A87 PCB with RGB underglow
Material is white UHMW for diffusion, black UHMW for sniper/ninja feelz
Black version will have larger base for sound & weight (white design is based more on underglow)
Black render will be done by Monday.
Plate material will be either brass or UHMW depending on sound/feel testing
Plate will be 1.5mm, either UHMW, brass, or some other plastic.
Screws will be magnetic, all same size
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Background:
I was a Korean airborne linguist for the US Air Force for about 10 years. Now I work in a hospital.
I carry my keyboard with me to and from work every day.
It gets shoved in my backpack or carried by hand from one work station to another a few times a day.
I don't have my own desk.
I want a board that feels like a Kustom,
but one that I'm not terrified of scuffing and ruining anodization,
or dropping and denting,
or scratching against a corner as I walk with it in hand.

Sometimes I want RGB.
In those cases, I want it to be diffused throughout the board itself,
not weakly reflected off the desk.

Feel and sound are very important to me. Most important, actually.
Looks are up there too, but sound and feel..oh man.
I don't want to have to add a weight or sorbothane to improve my case's sound quality.
Especially if it already costs so much.

Heft: a board should be solid and not move when typing. But it shouldn't be prohibitively heavy.
Sometimes, I like just holding my THE50 or CA66. I can't do that with my TX-CP.


This first board in UHMW is a TKL, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
Next iteration will be based on what I want at that time.
Likely a modified Alice/EM7 board, well, because I don't have one, and I want one.
 
NO ISO planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
No split backspace planned right now. Interest check may change my mind.
Google survey coming soon.
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Expected hurdles:
Reliable manufacturer.
   So far, I plan to use a local (Northern California) manufacturer,
   so that if there are delays or problems,
   I can be on site to get details or help fix things.
Experienced manufacturer.
   UHMW is not often CNC'd into anything this complicated.
   Thermal expansion is a minor issue,
   but feeding is the more prevalent issue so far.
   UHMW doesn't turn to dust like other plastics when machined.
   It turns into spaghetti. This requires more attention,
   and constant resetting,
   which means longer machine time. Meaning higher cost.
   There are innovative ways around this, though.

Unforeseeable stuff. This is really sappy. Read at your own discretion.
   

More

I intended to get this project off the ground 3 months ago,
   however my wife nearly died at the start of this year.
   So my family has been in and out of the hospital for 3 months.
   With her recovery, I now feel like I can get this thing going and finished.
   This board is named after her. I almost ended up a single dad to a five year-old and one year-old.
   I almost lost my best friend. If you meet her, you'll understand why this board is named after her.
   She diffuses everything harsh about me.
   As soon as you meet her, you love her and don't want her to leave.
   You want to carry her with you everywhere you go.

Here's what won't be a problem: COMMUNICATION (Rant coming...)

More

Updates will be scheduled weekly on Fridays.
If there are problems, you will know about it.
If things are going well, you will know about it.
If I have personal issues, you will know about it.
If I can't give details on something, you will know about it.
But at least, every Friday, you will know what's going on and what the expected timeline is.
I also will NOT make up estimated finish dates.

This is just an interest check so far, but
I hate not knowing what's going on, especially if it's something I'm purchasing.
You might feel the same way.
Communication will be consolidated here on Geekhack.
Information on discord gets mired in chat.
Reddit threads get scrapped if there are disagreements.
Keebtalk doesn't have much traffic, and I don't like the format.
I'm used to this kind of forum.
If you pm me, and don't hear back right away,
your answer is likely coming on Friday or earlier in the thread update.
If you pm me, and I answer right away, feel free to share that information in the thread.
In regards to the material and process: this is new ground.
If I give out misinformation and find out I'm wrong, I will own up to it.
If you have helpful knowledge, I'd appreciate it if you shared.
I want to share the process, so other better creators can have another material option.

Again, communication is very important to me.
If I intend to take your money and create something, this is now my job. I will treat it as such.
My phone will have notifications turned on for this thread.
If it becomes too much, I will get help from someone.
But no matter what, you will get answers.

[_GMK_]

mmm... no pictures?

[LightningXI]

Looks like the image uploader broke, or your BBCode tags are not correct.

Aside, this sounds interesting for a new material option. Will stay tuned to see more about it. What's the expected cost?

[Jaxxstatic]

mmm... no pictures?

Got the pics going, I think.

[LightningXI]

mmm... no pictures?

Got the pics going, I think.

I see them now. To start off a discussion, is the plate going to be exposed to air directly? How does UHMW work that you've chosen that top part design (no top piece with blockers between each cluster)?

Also seems like I'd be able to see the switches underneath the caps where there are gaps between clusters. I'm not a fan of low profile-esque looks.

Another point: does that plate not support full right Shift?

[loud_asian]

The case material is pretty interesting.

I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.

[SteffeMK]

I really like the look of this board. Depending on the price is I might join the GB.

Skickat från min ONEPLUS A6013 via Tapatalk

[Jaxxstatic]

Ok, putting up new renders this weekend. The case is literally supposed to look like an LZ CLS for layout.
My second hard drive crapped itself, and that's where my Fusion 360 files are at. These survived and I thought they were good enough to post.
I didn't look carefully enough.

SO..
Yes to non-split right shift support.
Blockers will be there between F Row keys and around the right section keys.
It's a high profile case all around.
Sorry for the misleading pics.

[OtherAndrew]

really makes you think

[_GMK_]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

[Jaxxstatic]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.

[Jaxxstatic]

The case material is pretty interesting.

I'm not much of a fan of having the spacing between the keys lower than the sides of the case though.

Got Fusion 360 back up. Local renders will take about 20 minutes each on my laptop, but I'm very tired (3:30 am here and gotta be up at 5:30am).
I will edit the main post tomorrow, but for now just think plastic LZ CLS or what have you. It is high profile.

[_GMK_]

Interested, but it all depends on the pricing.
How much would an injection mold cost? 5'000 usd?

UHMW can't be injection molded. It will be CNC machined like aluminum.
The price I'm going for is under $300, but I didn't put a price in the main post because I'm still working with manufacturers on the machine time.
Basically, I'm having to work with them to be more efficient to cut costs down.
I'm paying out of pocket for really expensive prototyping so far, but the price is going down with each iteration.

I was talking about injection molding in general. I was wondering why no one ever run a gb for an injection molded case. I like plastic too, so having a nice case in thick abs would be optimal and allow for infinite costomizations.

[Jaxxstatic]

I'm pretty sure mainstream gaming companies do actually injection mold ABS keyboard cases. I don't know for sure.
This is a totally different beast. The plastic I'm using, aside from the sound characteristics, is very durable.
It's one of the reasons polycarbonate cases can be sold for so much. Polycarb is strong.
UHMW is what many cutting boards are made of. Also, mountain climbing ropes, fishing line, motorcycle knee pucks, truck trailer bed liners, and even rifle round bulletproof plates.

[iaman]

Kinda diggin this. Looking forward to seeing where this goes.

And, additionally: sorry to hear about the personal stuff. It takes a big person to come out of a scare like that and hop back into work on a project like this, and I wish you and your loved ones all the best.

[mrpetrov]

Looks interesting.

What typing angle are you planning?

Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?

Thanks!

[Jaxxstatic]

Looks interesting.

What typing angle are you planning?

Will you provide a typing test in a proto so we can get a sense for sound before GB?

Thanks!

It's a 7 degree typing angle. I'm fastest on an 11 degree (or flat for some reason), but 7 seems to be a good middle ground.
I will try it out with the prototype when it comes and definitely post a typing test, sound test comparing other materials and boards of similar size, and a video to show light diffusion.
Videos are really important to me when I buy stuff online. I always check Youtube reviews and usually trust those over written reviews.
Thank you for asking!

[jan]

Interested!

[tex_live_utility]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

[Jaxxstatic]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.

Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.

The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.

[hineybush]

Injection molding is obv used for keyboards

Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap

This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.

[Jaxxstatic]

Injection molding is obv used for keyboards

Big problem for small unit runs (<500) is per-unit cost and the up-front cost needed (molding, tooling etc). Molds aren't cheap

This is why you see OEMs do it when they make 500, 1k, 10k, 100k+ of each part and molds for each.

UHMW can be compression molded, but it has to be done slowly and in a nitrogen atmosphere instead of ambient air.
For UHMW to be injection molded, it has to be injected "using a microcellular injection molding (MIM) process to introduce supercritical nitrogen into the melt to
 decrease viscosity and improve processability while reducing degradation." leaders.4spe.org/spe/conferences/ANTEC2017/papers/509.pdf
Really, I think machining is the most cost effective for the numbers so far, like what Hineybush said.

[pixelpusher]

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

[sJ1N]

interested, curious to see more about the material

also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.

[Jaxxstatic]

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

interested, curious to see more about the material

also hope you're doing okay man regarding the personal stuff, wishing you the best.

Thank you! My wife is 100% now, and we're trucking along.
As for the material, yes, it does come in other colors, but they are completely opaque, not allowing any light through.
For people who don't want to use the RGB, this may actually be preferable. Suppliers so far have only given me one satisfying color, though:
BLACK.
All other colors, like blue or red that I've seen, look like...boo boo. Not good.

[tex_live_utility]

Super cool. I've been interested in different plastic as keyboard materials for a while. Will be following this one.

Isn't UHMW kind of hard to machine because it's melty? What risk is there for warping of parts, which could cause delays or cost overruns, or just poor fit in the finished product?

UHMW is difficult to machine for a bunch of reasons. Which is why I'm kind of putting myself out there as the guinea pig.

Working with it, though, over the last 200 days, I've come to find that the benefits may just be worth the headache.

The sound is AMAZING. Very deep and "thocky."
The hand feel is wonderful when it's smoothed out, it can feel like ceramic or be textured to feel like an anodized surface.
It always feels the right temperature in the hand, like many plastics, not bitingly cold like aluminum can get oftentimes.
It's very very abrasion resistant. It diffuses light better than any other plastic I've seen.
It's very heavy compared to other plastics, so for me, it strikes the right balance between portable and sturdy.

 I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?

[Jaxxstatic]

 I've joked about this on discord a few times, but how does it compare to HDPE for the same purposes?

HDPE is denser than UHMW, and well....this isn't very scientific, but when I tapped a keycap (one PBT OEM profile, and one GMK double shot ABS) against the block of HDPE, the sound was higher pitched than the UHMW.
Honestly, I have no experience with HDPE, but I've heard it machines more easily to a smoother finish, although both can be finished nicely.
HDPE is also lighter, so for my purposes, I prefer the heft of UHMW.
If you have any info that suggests HDPE might be a better keyboard case material, though, I'm open.

[LightningXI]

By far some of the nerdier discussions on plastic that I've seen and I love the engagement from the OP, I look forward to learning more about the material and trying it out, hopefully in the form of a keyboard.

[pixelpusher]

Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?

[Sylanthra]

You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?

[ossetepo]

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

[Peiweisgreat]

This seems dope and I have been itching for a non-aluminum case. Count me in my dude.

[dr_unconscionable]

I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!

[TuCZnak]

I'm not normally into TKLs, but I'm very into your IC post. I love the new material, the name, and your philosophy on communication. Definitely following with interest!

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL, other than that I'd be very on board. Material looks super interesting and more "user friendly" than aluminium.

[japanesehorrorwriter]

I like everything about this. The kb, the story, the material, the reason for running this buy, everything. Will be in for one....

[piit79]

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL

Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast )

Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.

[tex_live_utility]

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.

[Jaxxstatic]

You mentioned that sound and feel are most important to you, but you didn't mention what sound and feel you are actually looking for.(Or I didn't see it.) What are you looking for exactly?

SOUND: Sound preference is very subjective, but UHMW excels at two aspects that seem very important to a lot of people:
1) It has excellent sound dampening properties.
2) It has a relatively low "THOCK" pitch when struck.

FEEL: Feel is also very subjective, but for me, my favorite board I have in terms of typing feel is my CA66, which is topmounted with a brass plate.
However, I will also be prototyping a UHMW 1.5mm separate plate and a top case with 4.8mm integrated plate.
Also, Hineybush's A87 PCB is pretty thick (the current version at least), so I'll probably cut myself a half plate and try that out as well.

Quite interesting.  I think if you had flashier renders people would be flooding to the topic, but they will come in time.

Completely unfamiliar with UHMW.  You mentioned they make cutting boards out of it.  I think I know the stuff you're talking about.  Do they happen to make it in a dark color as well?  I loved the look of the smokey polycarb on the new gateron ink switches.  A case like that would be very cool.

My renders are just from Fusion360, which I'm really new at using (I haven't touched CAD since AutoCAD 2000...in the year 2001). I'll be downloading some HDR images for better environments, but I'll also see about downloading another 3D rendering program.
The Irma WILL be coming out in a white and black version.

Is this the stuff that outdoor playground equipment is made from?

Yes. UHMW and HDPE are both used in a lot of playground equipment. UHWM for abrasion resistance, and HDPE for impact.

As an official professional plastics nerd, I'm intrigued but worried about machining tolerances, particularly for plates.  I'll be very interested to see protos.

I'm a nerd, but definitely not an expert on plastics. Any wisdom or information you provide is GREATLY appreciated.

Same here. Only shame is that it's WKL

Thought both options will be available? I wouldn't be interested if it was only WKL. Otherwise, I'd love to have a hefty great sounding TKL! (Also, greetings to a fellow CZ mk enthusiast )

Another thought - I'm not a great fan of the stepped shape of the bottom of the board. Is the step mainly for underglow? In that case the black version (which won't be translucent) could have a different shape with no step. I know it would require two 3D models but it could also save a bit of machining time.

I like the way WKL looks. And I don't have any WKL boards.
HOWEVER, I don't have any particular attachment to WKL or blockers in gerenal. I'll be putting up the Google survey this weekend. Key layout will be a section I pay close attention to.
Also, the bottom is not particularly locked in either. People will be able to vote in the survey for white with stepped bottom, black with stepped bottom, white with fat booty, or black with fat booty.

I imagine the plate would be a more standard material, or at least a laser-cuttable plastic like polycarbonate or POM. FR4 is also always a good option IMO.

If UHMW doesn't work out as a plate material, I'm likely going to go with another plastic. However, so far I have hand cut two of my own plates out of UHMW, and I like how they sound and feel.
I did it with a dremel, so some of the switch cut outs are off from when my cat jumped on my desk or when I had to go chase after my toddler.
Expect sound tests soon, though.

[Jaxxstatic]

Alright, so to make things affordable but still be able to test tolerances (and still get what I want), the prototype for integrated plate is going to be an Alice one-off based off Yuktsi's open source files that I modified.
Looks like this:


As for the UHMW plates, they'll be cut for the TKL. I'm also looking into water jet cutting to see if that yields cleaner edges. Edge finishing on UHMW is literally someone waving an open flame from what I've been told. I don't know how consistent that would be for the switch cutouts on a plate.

[switchnollie]

The Alice has a nice case, looking forward to it.

[ossetepo]

The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard.  The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it.  The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work.  I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then  . 

[tex_live_utility]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

The standard issue with UHMW machining is thermal expansion, which makes holding tolerances really hard.  The shop I've used advertises 0.01" tolerances as the best they can do for it.  The Cherry spec for plate cutouts tolerance is 0.002", but we've all seen plates with wider tolerances than that work.  I'm firmly in the "if it works it works" camp, so if your dremel'd plates are holding switches, then  .

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

[Jaxxstatic]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.

My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.

[jacky]

Looks nice bro ,look forward more details

Good luck

[tex_live_utility]

Would the UHMW plate be thicker than 1.5mm? And if so, would it have cutouts for switches to clip in, or would it be friction-fit?

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

The 4.8mm UHMW plate will have cutouts for switches and for stabilizers just like the Zeal Zephyr plate.
As for the top bezel, those thinner pieces around edge and the F-key row are 7.5mm tall, so they are still rather thick.
However, if there is any kind of warping, or if a TKL design with that row isn't feasible, I'm open to other layouts.

My goal is to see if the material is viable. I also wanted a form factor that doesn't require a proprietary PCB, but there are more options than just TKL.

This makes sense.

TKL is probably the most standardized since the a87 layout is public and well-defined for both PCB and plate. Then you can use e.g. the H87a PCB and get your own plate made, or use Hiney's FR4 plates.

Whereas 60% plates are only standardized for tray mount. And there is no standard (yet) for any other layout.

[ramblinrose]

Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.

[Jaxxstatic]

Cool project! I'm curious to see how the black case comes out - Plastic definitely has appeal for better sound, just never been into the clear polycarb hype.
Would be cool if the plate was top mount - as you're planning on compatibility with the a87 layout, would leave open options for custom plates.

Topmount all plastic is the ideal. Hopefully machining tolerances let me do it.
Carbon fiber is also an option.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Yes.

[bthezebra]

Definitely looking for an ESD proof board for work.

[ossetepo]

Does this also imply possible warping of thin pieces like the top bezel?

Warping is a big issue with UHMW, but usually with thicker parts - the thicker the part, the bigger the delta T between the inside and the outside, the bigger the residual stress.  A nice slow annealing will prevent a lot, but nothing's perfect.

Another thing to be aware of when combining UHMW with other materials is the differential thermal expansion - you can wind up with a situation where when the combined product heats up a little, fastener holes that used to line up don't anymore.  We use oversized holes or slots in the UHMW part on some applications to give the material some room to grow and shrink.