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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Leslieann on Sun, 02 December 2018, 21:29:28

Title: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 02 December 2018, 21:29:28
Inspired by the open Source Sucks (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88141.0) thread...
This is something I've been meaning to ask for a while.

Do you guys like win10 or do you just use it because you were forced to?

I don't think I've ever gotten to work on a Win10 system that was working at normal speed unless I've hacked it to hell to disable updates and such. That's not an exaggeration, however you have to bear in mind, I mostly get to use it when new and still getting updates or it's broken since I only use it on other people's computers (I'm an independent tech). This leads me to wonder though, does it ever run good, or are people just tolerating it?

Edit:
I'm not trying to use this as prelude to a bash, I genuinely want to know why people like and use it. I just want to understand because I really don't get it. Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: PadawanGeek on Sun, 02 December 2018, 22:00:44
I've been using Windows since, well, Windows 95 IIRC. I'd progressed from Win95 thru its various iterations to Win10, all my desktop rigs are 64bit Win 10 based, I've never really encountered any issue with Windows, great for what I use it for.....some office work, media entertainment and gaming.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Kavik on Sun, 02 December 2018, 22:52:46
My main desktop at home is running Windows 10. I resisted upgrading from Windows 7 for a year, but I didn't want to lose out on the free upgrade. I only use my home computer for playing video games, storing photographs, and web browsing. Windows 10 does those things just fine. I mainly upgraded because IIRC video card drivers or APIs or something were not going to be supported on anything prior to Win 10. There was also a stuttering issue with i7 processors and Windows 7 on Battlefield 4 that I was tired of dealing with.

I upgraded my Thinkpad to Win 10, but I ended up restoring Windows 7. One thing I hate about Win 10 is that it is not consistent. A clean installation is slightly different from an upgraded Win 7 installation, and even different Win 7 installations upgrade differently from each other (weird little differences in the UI and start menu that annoy me and can't be changed).

My desktop at work runs Windows 10. It works all right. One issue that we've had is that updates can only be delayed for up to one year IIRC, and Win 10 updates very frequently break things in our automated testing. When we hit the one year mark, people started having issues from updates that couldn't be reverted (I may be getting Visual Studio updates confused with Win 10 OS updates, but I think they both caused problems). The guy that tests updates before giving the go-ahead to install them has talked to Microsoft quite a bit, but MS basically doesn't care.

I think it's funny that the Windows 10 setting menus are very basic and almost useless and that I have to access the "old" control panel to do change anything useful.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 02 December 2018, 23:12:11
I can't afford the software...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: whalematrontron on Sun, 02 December 2018, 23:16:37
Windows 10 has always worked fine for me
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 02 December 2018, 23:18:59
Windows 10 has always worked fine for me

except the dodgy hdr mode.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: JianYang on Sun, 02 December 2018, 23:27:37
I work a lot in both Windows and Linux for some cross-platform development. I find that when I am in Windows, I almost always have a Virtual machine open on another desktop running Linux. When I am in Ubuntu, I will almost never need a Windows virtual machine.

I have noticed that Microsoft have eroded the users control with the past couple of years of updates. I find that disabling telemetry completely is near impossible, and it will be re-enabled to some extent after each update.

Overall, I am spending most of my time in Ubuntu, and with Windows becoming more and more annoying I find myself slowly migrating completely.

I can't afford the software...

Most users don't directly pay for it - it is included with the price of the hardware. The machine I am currently using came with Windows 10, but I am using Ubuntu (mostly because I want to actually be in control).

 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 02 December 2018, 23:52:27
I've got a Windows 10 desktop that I use exclusively for MS Office and Steam. I've also got a failing laptop with Win10 that sees very occasional use with MS Office. There's a few games I enjoy that I don't really want to put the effort into getting them working on Linux, and although LibreOffice works quite well for 90% of the work I do, it's sometimes easier to get the right formatting with Word or Powerpoint, and I haven't yet found anything that works as nicely as Publisher for making posters.

I used Windows exclusively from Win98 onward until 2009 or 2010, when I had a laptop that wasn't quite handling Vista nicely, so I threw Ubuntu on it. It wasn't quite comfortable enough for my day-to-day use, but it wasn't all that bad either. A few years later, that laptop got Crunchbang, which was a great experience.

In 2013 or so, I started dual-booting my (Windows 7) desktop, first with Mint (probably 16 at the time). I found that most of what I needed to do, I could do in Linux, and it was easier for writing code, so that's where I stayed most of the time. I tried a couple of different distros on that machine, and a few older desktops, before settling on a customized Debian netinstall.

In 2016, I upgraded the Windows partition to Windows 10. I found it a step further away from the Linux environment I'd become more used to, and I didn't enjoy using it any more. I built a new (to me, at least) computer late 2016, and didn't even bother trying to put Windows on the new one. When I want or need to use Windows-only software, I boot up the old machine, but I feel like I'm fighting the interface a lot more than I do with Mint, even for just basic tasks. I am still more comfortable with Windows 10 than with Mac OS, although that's probably more from experience than anything else.

If I could get away with never using Windows, I'd happily do so. However, with the work I do, it's not completely realistic at this point. It's possible that there's a way to make the Windows 10 UI closer to what I'd like, but at this point, I'm not willing to put enough time into it to figure that out.

I guess I kind of rambled on more than was really necessary to answer the question, and I'm not sure if it's really what you're looking for, but there it is.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Photoelectric on Mon, 03 December 2018, 00:18:38
I've had windows 10 on many computers at this point (family, friends, mine) and have had no problems with it at all.  Works quite fast. I loved 7, resisted upgrading to 8, then was glad when I did (overall faster, got used to the UI and had no issues with it).  10 is like an extension of 8.  Upgraded to 10 soon after it came out.  I still just don't understand why people have such issues upgrading to the latest windows versions--always a lot of drama and complaints associated with new releases.  Some people (*cough*) still want us to use Windows 95...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: yuppie on Mon, 03 December 2018, 02:08:45
Gaming.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 03 December 2018, 04:45:09
I guess I kind of rambled on more than was really necessary to answer the question, and I'm not sure if it's really what you're looking for, but there it is.
Not looking for anything specifically.

I stopped using it a while back and now I tend to only see the problems with Win10 since that is part of my job I don't get to see the good side of it and my customers just kind of shrug when asked.



I still just don't understand why people have such issues upgrading to the latest windows versions--always a lot of drama and complaints associated with new releases.  Some people (*cough*) still want us to use Windows 95...
I started on ummmm, let's just say an older version of Windows and used every beta since, including Win10 beta. I used Win10 as soon as it became open to beta testers and used it until a week after it was released to manufacturing and issued licenses to beta testers. Historically, I was usually one of the first people onto a new version of Windows and can switch between Windows, Mac and Linux rather seamlessly so it's not a problem of not wanting to moving forward.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: AJM on Mon, 03 December 2018, 05:56:54
I've used Windows since version 3 - skipping only Vista/8.
As usual it took me some time to accept the design change from 7 to 10, but today I couldn't look at Windows 7 again.
Apart from that, I didn't have any problems with Win10. It's probably the first OS that got faster with a newer version instead of slower. It's saying something, when a hardware manufacturer is complaining that Windows 10 is too fast and he can't sell as many new PCs as usual.
Windows obviously has the largest range of compatible software and drivers.
I use LINUX at work, but see no reason to use it privately.
Apple has some nice hardware, so I try to live with its software on iPhones and iPads (in jailbroken form). Android is in many regards worse, so there isn't even an alternative, but on a desktop I couldn't live with the infantilizing by Apple.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Mon, 03 December 2018, 07:53:54
The only way I'm upgrading my computers from Windows 7 is if React OS is released, or I force myself to use Linux (again)...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Mon, 03 December 2018, 08:44:30
I just got out of a monogamous two year relationship with the linux kernel in favor of installing Windows 7 (Maxis games, other picky games, and CAD).  Ideally I would use a newer system and pass a quadro to a Win10 VM (I like rolling releases).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 03 December 2018, 09:03:09
I still use Windows 10 upgraded from Windows 7 on a 64-bit machine.
The major reason is I have to use a few software packages that is native to Windows:

1. E-Prime - a super buggy fuxking piece of crap but almost monopolized human behavioral experimentation software world;
2. MS Word - some collaborator I work with for some manuscript need to make use of the "Tracking changes" function of MS Word, my license is 2010 or 2013, pretty old but still stable;
3. MS OneNote - I have typed and handwritten lots of notes in this format and I need this piece of wonderful automatically indexed application to read them, plus OneNote is wonderful;
4. MS PowerPoint and Excel maybe for their native format support, and Outlook to open some archived mail folder files.

I use the fantastic LibreOffice also, on my linux machine, but their compatibility with MS formats though decent are not great.
I also use LaTeX, but I cannot expect my collaborators to work with me in LaTeX format or only in PDF markup manner.

Other than what I mentioned above, I stick to Emacs, R, GIMP, Inkscape and make other more reliable open-source goodies.

I love to use my Linux Machine as my main machine but still using the Windows 10 machine more often.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Tactile on Mon, 03 December 2018, 09:17:01
I'd used Win 10 prior but about a year and a half ago I built the computer I'm using now. Asrock mobo, Core I7 7700, 16 gig ram, Mushkin Reactor 1 TB ssd, blah blah...

I installed Win 10 (with a proper license, not bootleg) and have had no problems. This machine is rock solid and performs well. For many years I've read of people having this or that problem but never happened to me. It might have something to do with the fact I don't have a Microsoft account or Microsoft ID, or whatever it's called, so maybe some updates aren't shoved to my machine.

Anyway, with the performance of this machine I see no reason to *not* run Win 10.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 03 December 2018, 20:12:42
I have a PC at home running Windows 7 used for light gaming.  To be used for heavier gaming if I ever get around to (i.e. can afford) to upgrade GPU etc.  I have no plans to upgrade to Windows 10.

Some of the PCs at work run Windows 10, although I use a Mac now.  I have to support them occasionally.  Can't find anything, dialogs are moved around or removed for no apparent reason.  Incomprehensible ribbons have replaced simple menus.  The start menu is full of advertisements.

I've heard tales of Windows 10 updates spontaneously rebooting PCs regardless of what they are being used for, and even whether they are actually being used at the time or not.  Windows 10 updates randomly deleting user files and applications.

I have no plans to use Windows 10.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 03 December 2018, 20:59:12
My laptop XPS L702X and T5400 Desktop both are running Windows 10 Pro.

The laptop had a few issues initially but once I got the boot loader straightened out it has worked great, I'm not sure it properly switches between the nvidia card and the intel built in but Windows 7 didn't always either. I even managed to get windows media center running on it and the tv tuner works.

The T5400 I rebuilt with 32 gig ram and added another cpu so it has 2, it's running an ssd boot drive and a couple terabyte storage drive, also added a usb 3 card and a 1060.

I've tried various tweaks but I've undone most of them, they just caused issues with updates etc and honestly didn't seem to add anything beneficial.

I've done everything from gaming to cad work on the desktop and it has worked well, mostly just web browsing though, really the same with the laptop but I got tired of the fan running all the time on it so I hardly use it anymore.

I'd like to get one of those ultra small systems and strap it up under the desk and get rid of this heater (the T5400).

All the new precision machines at work are running windows 10 except my old beast from 2009, it's still running windows 7  but it will run windows 10, I put it on a secondary drive for testing.

I agree with Tactile I see no reason not to use windows 10.

I do admit I hung on to windows xp a lot longer than I should have and I did enjoy windows 7 and still do but at this point I'd choose windows 10 if given the choice.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Larken on Mon, 03 December 2018, 22:31:24
Been on every Windows release since 3.1, skipped 8. I honestly do not mind Windows 10 at all, it is an overall upgrade compared to Win7 imo. It dumbs down a good part of the troubleshooting and driver installation, and requires much less tweaking. Probably not as appealing to power users, but all I need my computer to do nowadays is to work smoothly, which it does.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 04 December 2018, 04:42:24
Probably not as appealing to power users, but all I need my computer to do nowadays is to work smoothly, which it does.
That could be some of it, I'm used to having way more control and when it does so much behind the scenes without permission or ability to stop it, it just irks me to no end. My current desktop is the first time I've ever felt I had any resources to spare.

Don't think this is because the systems were bad, they were all high end systems (the two prior systems were Core I7 with 16gigs and ssd), just that this is the first one I have yet to bring to its knees under hard use.


Some of the PCs at work run Windows 10, although I use a Mac now.  I have to support them occasionally.  Can't find anything, dialogs are moved around or removed for no apparent reason.  Incomprehensible ribbons have replaced simple menus.  The start menu is full of advertisements.

{cut}

You are in the same situation as me, from an outsider looking in perspective, it comes across as a horrible, horrible mess.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: JP on Tue, 04 December 2018, 07:41:01
My PC randomly crashes / halts maybe once a week typically while using a web browser, either Chrome or FF. Back when I ran Win 7 it ran flawlessly.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Tue, 04 December 2018, 07:47:02
The driver installation is the *only* thing good about W10.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Tactile on Tue, 04 December 2018, 09:25:45
...The start menu is full of advertisements...

That's something I forgot to mention. I use Start10 (https://www.stardock.com/products/start10/).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 04 December 2018, 10:34:50
They should just give out win10 for free.   GG, MacOS..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: dgneo on Tue, 04 December 2018, 10:45:55
home & work. runs perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 04 December 2018, 16:12:04
Windows 10 has always worked fine for me

Same.  To expand more, I've tried Mac 3 times (started with Apple), 4 different flavors of Linux, OS/2, and a smattering of others.  I've found that all of them have their peculiarities.  I'm more productive in Windows, for work, and for home.

The start menu is full of advertisements.

I'm not sure if you're not using a full version of Windows 10 or what, but none of the machines that I have windows 10 on them have ads in the Start menu.  And they're all using the default start menu, and I've not changed it (because I don't really use the Start Menu, I use truelaunchbar and fences)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: ddot on Tue, 04 December 2018, 18:45:46
The start menu is full of advertisements.

I'm not sure if you're not using a full version of Windows 10 or what, but none of the machines that I have windows 10 on them have ads in the Start menu.  And they're all using the default start menu, and I've not changed it (because I don't really use the Start Menu, I use truelaunchbar and fences)


If you look at the picture in this TechNet Blog (https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/deploymentguys/2016/03/07/windows-10-start-layout-customization/) (it's not letting me hotlink the picture) you can see "suggested" apps.  I'd say that qualifies as an ad.

As for my thoughts on Windows 10:

•I still have a sour taste in my mouth over how aggressive Microsoft was in encouraging (tricking) people into upgrading.
•I dislike the new start menu (although that can be fixed with Classic Shell/Open Shell).
•I dislike the lack of control Microsoft now gives over the update process (although I get that forced regular updates is probably better for everyone collectively).
•I dislike the hard push to connect everything to the cloud.
•I had a friend who tried to add a dual boot Windows 10 to their existing windows 7 setup.  They didn't know about the Fast Startup feature and it screwed up their existing Windows 7 install pretty bad.  For most people, faster startup is only going to be a good thing, but nothing excuses a convenience feature that can come at the expense of data loss.
•I also think Microsoft has lost their way in providing a workstation type OS.  A fresh install of a business OS should not greet the user with Candy Crush and XBox tiles.  A large organization may have the resources to customize an Enterprise image to their exact specifications and mass deploy is, but a small/medium business is just going to start off with a Pro install and have to deal with everything that comes with it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 04 December 2018, 19:04:21
I can't afford the software...

use any Windows 7 or 8 key and you can activate Win10
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 04 December 2018, 19:21:02
My PC randomly crashes / halts maybe once a week typically while using a web browser, either Chrome or FF. Back when I ran Win 7 it ran flawlessly.
There is a bug, no one is sure of the cause, but some systems just cannot run run chrome, some cannot run FF, but usually it's only one or the other.

I would run a memory scan (memtest86) and check your drive for errors. Defraggler has a health tab that will show your drive stats, check for reallocated sectors, uncorrectable sector count as those are indicators of your drive failing. If there is even one in either of those, start backing up your system as your drive is failing.

If you get a memory error, take out all but one stick and re-run the test until you find and remove all of the bad sticks. You may be gimped on ram, but it's better than bad ram. Bad ram will corrupt ANYTHING that goes through that section of memory. I had it happen once on the first stick and it raised hell with my data and took months to weed out all of the corrupted personal files.


They should just give out win10 for free.   GG, MacOS..
They do.
Windows is free on any system with a 10 or12in screen or smaller, and even an unregistered copy works.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 04 December 2018, 19:25:15
I also think Microsoft has lost their way in providing a workstation type OS.  A fresh install of a business OS should not greet the user with Candy Crush and XBox tiles.  A large organization may have the resources to customize an Enterprise image to their exact specifications and mass deploy is, but a small/medium business is just going to start off with a Pro install and have to deal with everything that comes with it.
Enterprise edition is free of Candy Crush and such, it even lacks web apps, it's like a fresh Win7 install. Supposedly the latest (Redstone 5)  also allows for more customization in terms of updates and spying but I haven't had a chance to test it.

Companies not using Enterprise though, have largely given up trying to clean up a normal Win10 install. It's just simply too much effort to keep it clear of MS' BS.
O&O Shutup 10 can help, so does Win10 privacy, I've used bot to varying degrees of success. Problem is, take out too much and you even gimp driver installs.

If I was running Win10 though, it would be Enterprise, legal or not. Pro and Basic is just not an option even worth considering.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 04 December 2018, 20:09:19
Some of the PCs at work run Windows 10, although I use a Mac now.  I have to support them occasionally.  Can't find anything, dialogs are moved around or removed for no apparent reason.  Incomprehensible ribbons have replaced simple menus.  The start menu is full of advertisements.

{cut}

You are in the same situation as me, from an outsider looking in perspective, it comes across as a horrible, horrible mess.

To be fair though, a lot of Linux distros have gone the same way.  Weird GUIs, radical layout changes, systemd ...

I use Macs mostly now, routinely since about 10.4.  The UI has changed a little in that time, but each version introduces only minor changes, and they are pretty east to get used to.

Hardware changes is another matter.  Motorola -> PowerPC -> Intel -> ARM (maybe?).  30-pin connector -> lightning -> ?  Headphone socket.  USB ports.  Mouse buttons.  Et hoc genus omne.  Some of those changes take a lot]/b] of getting used to.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 04 December 2018, 21:01:04
To be fair though, a lot of Linux distros have gone the same way.  Weird GUIs, radical layout changes, systemd ...
You can pick a distro without systemd, or a different DE or package manager. With Windows you get what MS shoves down your throat.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 04 December 2018, 22:16:47
The start menu is full of advertisements.

I'm not sure if you're not using a full version of Windows 10 or what, but none of the machines that I have windows 10 on them have ads in the Start menu.  And they're all using the default start menu, and I've not changed it (because I don't really use the Start Menu, I use truelaunchbar and fences)


If you look at the picture in this TechNet Blog (https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/deploymentguys/2016/03/07/windows-10-start-layout-customization/) (it's not letting me hotlink the picture) you can see "suggested" apps.  I'd say that qualifies as an ad.


I've seen that picture in several places.  But I've never seen that on my PC in use.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 05 December 2018, 03:45:19
I've seen that picture in several places.  But I've never seen that on my PC in use.

It depends on your version of windows, on OEM (pre-instaleld) copies it tends to be on by default.
It can be turned on and off by going to settings, personalization, start, then change the "show suggestions on occasion on the start menu".
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: StickyBlueJuice on Wed, 05 December 2018, 04:32:19
Gaming.
I use Win10 for gaming as well.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Cynamin on Wed, 05 December 2018, 09:41:30
I have win10 on my desktop solely for gaming. having to use it after a long day of using my laptop with arch is awful, and it makes me wish for steam proton to really hit the mainstream.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 06 December 2018, 18:53:10
Windows 10 is my main entertainment / development / production system on desktops and I'm fine with 22 more years of Windows if I can.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Fri, 07 December 2018, 01:05:25
I've seen that picture in several places.  But I've never seen that on my PC in use.

It depends on your version of windows, on OEM (pre-instaleld) copies it tends to be on by default.
It can be turned on and off by going to settings, personalization, start, then change the "show suggestions on occasion on the start menu".

I have an OEM and two upgrades and on none of them have I ever seen it nor have I turned it off.  Actually, I just checked, and that setting is on in the settings for my primary desktop.  But I've never seen them. 

/me shrugs
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 07 December 2018, 19:42:18
I've seen that picture in several places.  But I've never seen that on my PC in use.

It depends on your version of windows, on OEM (pre-instaleld) copies it tends to be on by default.
It can be turned on and off by going to settings, personalization, start, then change the "show suggestions on occasion on the start menu".

I have an OEM and two upgrades and on none of them have I ever seen it nor have I turned it off.  Actually, I just checked, and that setting is on in the settings for my primary desktop.  But I've never seen them. 

/me shrugs
I haven't paid attention to it enough to see if maybe home gets them more often, or pro doesn't at all. Or maybe it depends on when it was installed and what version. Not sure, it does seem to be random, so maybe OEM depends on your vendor or... Who knows.

This has been one complaint people have had with Win10 is that you can look at 10 computers with Win10 and several of them will be different no matter how much you try and keep them alike. Some of this can be chalked up to newer vs older installs, but that doesn't explain all of it the oddities people have seen.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Fri, 07 December 2018, 20:01:57
When I upgraded my Windows 7 32bit (grandfathered via legit OEM) to Windows 7 64bit (currently using again) and then to Windows 10 Home 64bit I too saw the likes of Candy Crush and One Drive.

That and an extra 500MB+ of RAM usage at startup. Which I assumed was a convenience tax due to the freshly vacant software testing department.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 07 December 2018, 21:03:23
When I upgraded my Windows 7 32bit (grandfathered via legit OEM) to Windows 7 64bit (currently using again) and then to Windows 10 Home 64bit I too saw the likes of Candy Crush and One Drive.

That and an extra 500MB+ of RAM usage at startup. Which I assumed was a convenience tax due to the freshly vacant software testing department.
Everyone but Enterprise gets Candy Crush.
Pretty sure it's the same for One Drive.

As for the 500 megs... We used to have a saying, "What Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away".
We are actually in a boon time for users, in that the hardware has FINALLY outpaced the software, and while this may be the last Windows OS,  that doesn't mean system requirements will not continue to grow. Every OS starts with lower system requirements than it ends with and with Microsoft not doing in house quality assurance and users having more hardware than the software needs, MS has no incentive to make sure everything runs optimal, and applications grow, that is just how it is.

Besides, if they didn't drag you down, what incentive would you have to go buy a new computer?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Fri, 07 December 2018, 22:50:12
Yes, I have Candy Crush (the new Solitaire) on mine.  I actually use OneDrive.  5x1TB for $9.99/month is a hard one to beat.  With Office as the cherry on top.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 08 December 2018, 11:52:08
Microsoft didn't give me a choice as to whether I wanted to have One Drive software installed so that kind of drove me away from it.  If it didn't take me seven hours to upload 5GB I would probably go with the SpiderOak $12 plan to backup all my OS partitions.  Although I've heard good things about Seafile, my local Nextcloud (webdav included) setup has been fine for my backup and file storage needs.  Give me the option to remove OneDrive (~2015) without trying to reinstall (Candy Crush as well) it after every update and I would have been content.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 08 December 2018, 17:13:32
Enterprise edition is free of Candy Crush and such, it even lacks web apps, it's like a fresh Win7 install. Supposedly the latest (Redstone 5)  also allows for more customization in terms of updates and spying but I haven't had a chance to test it.

Companies not using Enterprise though, have largely given up trying to clean up a normal Win10 install. It's just simply too much effort to keep it clear of MS' BS.
O&O Shutup 10 can help, so does Win10 privacy, I've used bot to varying degrees of success. Problem is, take out too much and you even gimp driver installs.

If I was running Win10 though, it would be Enterprise, legal or not. Pro and Basic is just not an option even worth considering.

I have the same thoughts about Win10. Imo, Win10 Home/Pro should be FreeWare; Microsoft's converted Windows into a service that continually generates revenue for them after you pay to use it, and even had/has the tenacity to bundle updates in timed releases and in unstable conditions to boot. This is not ok for a company to do from my point of view, but it's tolerated because too many users are not savvy to software ethics or pro-consumer practices.

If I were to take a guess, I'd be willing to bet that eventually Windows will have a subscription based service. Last I heard, Microsoft plans to stick to Win10 for a long time, and if true, they're going to want to increase the revenue it generates outside of OEM sales and data profiting, when it finally saturates the market. The next step is to leverage a subscription based model that promises more stable update releases and the possibly disabling a small portion of telemetry to entice users to bite.

I'm not a heavy gamer anymore, so I've been putting off upgrading hardware so I'm not forced onto Win10, but it'll only last so long, and so I've been looking into enterprise versions myself. Linux has been making great headway, but it still requires a good amount of investment to get some Win native games working. I can only hope that more game developers start pushing out linux versions of their games.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 08 December 2018, 18:15:12
Microsoft didn't give me a choice as to whether I wanted to have One Drive software installed so that kind of drove me away from it.  If it didn't take me seven hours to upload 5GB I would probably go with the SpiderOak $12 plan to backup all my OS partitions.  Although I've heard good things about Seafile, my local Nextcloud (webdav included) setup has been fine for my backup and file storage needs.  Give me the option to remove OneDrive (~2015) without trying to reinstall (Candy Crush as well) it after every update and I would have been content.
CandyCrush and other stuff, including one Drive at one time was relatively simple to remove, but MS has continuously made it more and more difficult and will be reinstalled next major update, with changes to make it harder to remove again. There is one program that can do it and keep it removed (win10privacy), as well as remove ALL of the garbage, however in order to keep them away you need to disable updates. Remove too much and even driver updates and installs get borked though. A better option is to just install enterprise edition if you can get a copy, every other edition of Windows is either malware or shareware in my opinion.

A reinstall will not remove Onedrive, it's now baked in. It can however be disabled from startup in it's settings. That only helps so much as it moves your folders to a new location. Which, by the way MS, WTFlyingF? That is a straight up malware move right there. How long did MS fight to get everything one spot, and now they just move it without permission. Just another example of malware like activity.

Personally, I'm using Mega (free 50gigs), with a smaller folder inside that duplicating to Google. Google is a hassle on Linux (no good, free clients), Mega is easy, unfortunately Mega's trash system doesn't deal well with duplicate file names, so my most important stuff is shared with both for redundancy and better trash system.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 08 December 2018, 18:25:08
I have the same thoughts about Win10. Imo, Win10 Home/Pro should be FreeWare;

{cut}

If I were to take a guess, I'd be willing to bet that eventually Windows will have a subscription based service. Last I heard, Microsoft plans to stick to Win10 for a long time, and if true, they're going to want to increase the revenue it generates outside of OEM sales and data profiting, when it finally saturates the market. The next step is to leverage a subscription based model that promises more stable update releases and the possibly disabling a small portion of telemetry to entice users to bite.

I'm not a heavy gamer anymore, so I've been putting off upgrading hardware so I'm not forced onto Win10, but it'll only last so long, but I've been looking into enterprise versions myself. Linux has been making great headway, but it still requires a good amount of investment to get some Win native games working. I can only hope that more game developers start pushing out linux versions of their games.
By all rights, Win10 qualifies as as malware.
It installed without asking (Virus), installs software you don't want (trojan), displays advertisements (malvertising), makes changes you didn't ask for and steals private information. I would say it's not moving and encrypting data then asking for money, but Onedrive is moving data then telling you that you need to pay for more space (ransomware).

Windows 10 already does allow you to disable a small portion of telemetry, this is "basic" data collection. However, if you read the documentation that was released in the EU, basic is 95% of telemetry, and full only adds a few minor things. It's complete marketing BS. MS says there is no immediate plans for win10 as a service for normal users, however, rumor is it may become free. Technically you can run Win10 now without a license (just no personalization), MS even allows you to download it and offers it free to mobile devices under 10inches. They are not making much from Win10 itself (they make money from everything tacked into it, like One Drive and Office) so it's not a stretch to see it going free in the future.

You can get Win7 and 8 onto newer systems, but it's tricky, especially for Win7, I recently did it on a Nuc. Win7 was a pain and after a short time I just couldn't be bothered as you have to inject USB3 drivers and few other changes which is easier if you use windows on the machine you are making the disk for. Win8.1 was far easier, which was what the customer got.

As far as Linux native games, I wouldn't hold your breath, however if rumors are to be believed it may not matter. In the meantime, Lutris is doing quite well.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 08 December 2018, 19:05:55
Microsoft didn't give me a choice as to whether I wanted to have One Drive software installed so that kind of drove me away from it.  If it didn't take me seven hours to upload 5GB I would probably go with the SpiderOak $12 plan to backup all my OS partitions.  Although I've heard good things about Seafile, my local Nextcloud (webdav included) setup has been fine for my backup and file storage needs.  Give me the option to remove OneDrive (~2015) without trying to reinstall (Candy Crush as well) it after every update and I would have been content.
CandyCrush and other stuff, including one Drive at one time was relatively simple to remove, but MS has continuously made it more and more difficult and will be reinstalled next major update, with changes to make it harder to remove again. There is one program that can do it and keep it removed (win10privacy), as well as remove ALL of the garbage, however in order to keep them away you need to disable updates. Remove too much and even driver updates and installs get borked though. A better option is to just install enterprise edition if you can get a copy, every other edition of Windows is either malware or shareware in my opinion.

A reinstall will not remove Onedrive, it's now baked in. It can however be disabled from startup in it's settings. That only helps so much as it moves your folders to a new location. Which, by the way MS, WTFlyingF? That is a straight up malware move right there. How long did MS fight to get everything one spot, and now they just move it without permission. Just another example of malware like activity.

Personally, I'm using Mega (free 50gigs), with a smaller folder inside that duplicating to Google. Google is a hassle on Linux (no good, free clients), Mega is easy, unfortunately Mega's trash system doesn't deal well with duplicate file names, so my most important stuff is shared with both for redundancy and better trash system.

Yup, before Windows 10 I played with Linux Mint and Ubuntu. But, Windows 10 is what swayed me to install Debian as my first daily Linux distro. Debian netinst iso ftw :)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 08 December 2018, 19:06:19
By all rights, Win10 qualifies as as malware.
It installed without asking (Virus), installs software you don't want (trojan), displays advertisements (malvertising), makes changes you didn't ask for and steals private information. I would say it's not moving and encrypting data then asking for money, but Onedrive is moving data then telling you that you need to pay for more space (ransomware).

Windows 10 already does allow you to disable a small portion of telemetry, this is "basic" data collection. However, if you read the documentation that was released in the EU, basic is 95% of telemetry, and full only adds a few minor things. It's complete marketing BS. MS says there is no immediate plans for win10 as a service for normal users, however, rumor is it may become free. Technically you can run Win10 now without a license (just no personalization), MS even allows you to download it and offers it free to mobile devices under 10inches. They are not making much from Win10 itself (they make money from everything tacked into it, like One Drive and Office) so it's not a stretch to see it going free in the future.

You can get Win7 and 8 onto newer systems, but it's tricky, especially for Win7, I recently did it on a Nuc. Win7 was a pain and after a short time I just couldn't be bothered as you have to inject USB3 drivers and few other changes which is easier if you use windows on the machine you are making the disk for. Win8.1 was far easier, which was what the customer got.

As far as Linux native games, I wouldn't hold your breath, however if rumors are to be believed it may not matter. In the meantime, Lutris is doing quite well.

No arguments with that. I know some people get heated over calling it malware, and didn't want to bring that up, haha.

It's a shame because Win7 was very power user friendly and I've only researched Win8 (it's been a while since I've built much), but the whole Win10 thing really puts me off. It just feels like I'd be wasting too much time to wrangle it in to be worth using as a daily driver, and I'm sure that's how a lot of people that oppose but use it feel as well.

With how invasive it is, I may end up keeping my old rig to run linux for media, work, and personal use and put together a new rig solely for Windows gaming, just to keep local data isolated. I've considered just dual-booting, but have read Win10 snoops and moves data it shouldn't be able to without user permission. It depends on how I decide on tackling the issue when I get the itch to slap some new hardware together; the Zen2 stuff is getting me really itchy...

This isn't even about keeping shady things off the record, it's about keeping as much financial, business, and personal data secure as possible.

Edit; I have been trying to keep up with projects like Lutris/Wine/GameOnLinux, and it does make me feel a bit of relief. These guys are the real MVPs for the future of PC gaming atm.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 09 December 2018, 02:48:02
No arguments with that. I know some people get heated over calling it malware, and didn't want to bring that up, haha.

It's a shame because Win7 was very power user friendly and I've only researched Win8 (it's been a while since I've built much), but the whole Win10 thing really puts me off. It just feels like I'd be wasting too much time to wrangle it in to be worth using as a daily driver, and I'm sure that's how a lot of people that oppose but use it feel as well.

With how invasive it is, I may end up keeping my old rig to run linux for media, work, and personal use and put together a new rig solely for Windows gaming, just to keep local data isolated. I've considered just dual-booting, but have read Win10 snoops and moves data it shouldn't be able to without user permission. It depends on how I decide on tackling the issue when I get the itch to slap some new hardware together; the Zen2 stuff is getting me really itchy...

This isn't even about keeping shady things off the record, it's about keeping as much financial, business, and personal data secure as possible.

Edit; I have been trying to keep up with projects like Lutris/Wine/GameOnLinux, and it does make me feel a bit of relief. These guys are the real MVPs for the future of PC gaming atm.

I'm not trying to bash people for using it, I've said before, use what works for you. I can respect someone for using it, even if I don't respect the OS.

Windows has become less and less power user since long before XP, it's just that in most cases you could work around much of it. Even MS recognized this, which is why they created Powershell, which is kind of a poor replacement for you know, actual control panel settings that were worth a darn.

Win10 moves around a TON of data.
On major updates it archives the current Windows install the deletes it, before reinstalling itself before putting the data back that it needs to This is how they caused the recent Onedrive bug, it's a stupid and moronic method of doing updates, destined to miss something eventually.

It will also over-ride a dual boot system, not just to boot partition, but going so far as to mess with your uefi settings as well.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Qyndryx on Sun, 09 December 2018, 09:31:23
I have the same gripes as everyone else when it comes to Windows 10, though I've got enough patience to put up with them.  My biggest gripe is probably the UI out of everything else.  The Fluent Design look just doesn't do it for me, Aero was the best.  I suppose nostalgia is also a major part of it for me, considering that I grew up with it.

I made an attempt to install Windows 7 but it threw a hissy fit with drivers and all sorts so I just gave up with it and I'm still using Windows 10.  Having failed the first time, I'm considering trying it again but making a better attempt.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: duckboi on Sun, 09 December 2018, 10:55:39
Honestly I've never really had any of the issues that people always talk about with windows 10.
I don't get bombarded with updates, I don't have issues with speed, etc.
Maybe I'm lucky?  :p
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sun, 09 December 2018, 17:30:56
Win10 moves around a TON of data.
On major updates it archives the current Windows install the deletes it, before reinstalling itself before putting the data back that it needs to This is how they caused the recent Onedrive bug, it's a stupid and moronic method of doing updates, destined to miss something eventually.

It will also over-ride a dual boot system, not just to boot partition, but going so far as to mess with your uefi settings as well.

Oh hell, I wasn't aware that it could mess with the UEFI. This is indeed a large problem if it can access and manipulate firmware without owner consent.

I can understand why an installation/update would want to create a copy of user settings, wipe for a clean install, and over-write with corresponding settings from the copy of user preferred settings, but to go as far as copying user content/documents on to their servers is just aggressive data collection/snooping; there's no rhyme or reason why this doesn't happen locally. It's absolutely outrageous that it hasn't caused a big media stink, I may look into it a bit more later on.

Thanks for all the info so far; it's a good spread of things to look into when planning for upgrade time.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 09 December 2018, 20:05:22
Oh hell, I wasn't aware that it could mess with the UEFI. This is indeed a large problem if it can access and manipulate firmware without owner consent.

I can understand why an installation/update would want to create a copy of user settings, wipe for a clean install, and over-write with corresponding settings from the copy of user preferred settings, but to go as far as copying user content/documents on to their servers is just aggressive data collection/snooping; there's no rhyme or reason why this doesn't happen locally. It's absolutely outrageous that it hasn't caused a big media stink, I may look into it a bit more later on.

Thanks for all the info so far; it's a good spread of things to look into when planning for upgrade time.
You're welcome.
By the way, Windows 8 can also mess with uefi settings.

The data reporting has caused some media coverage, but many ignored it, others simply don't care and MS did a lot of work to bury it. By the time we fully understood the depth of it, most people were and media were over it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: ddot on Mon, 10 December 2018, 14:01:33
It depends on your version of windows, on OEM (pre-instaleld) copies it tends to be on by default.

I have a few Win10 ISOs squirreled away, so I fired up virtualbox for a few tests.  I tried installing a few different releases of Win10 directly in a variety of releases, editions and architectures.  Then I tried installing Win7 a few times and upgrading via both the Microsoft Media Creation Tool and different Win10 ISOs.  Not once was I able to get the "suggested apps" to show up by default.  Maybe I just didn't hit that magical setup to make it appear.  Or maybe it's no longer enabled due to negative feedback or something.

Everyone but Enterprise gets Candy Crush.
Pretty sure it's the same for One Drive.

I also installed a fresh copy of Win10 Enterprise 1607 so see what was included by default.  Still get the Windows Store, Xbox, OneDrive, etc.  Can't tell on Candy Crush as there's still a few tiles that are refusing to update.

(https://sites.google.com/site/ddot98online/Win10.png)

If you really want to thin down what's included, you need to go with Win10 Enterprise LTSB/LTSC.  Among other things, it's missing: Metro Apps (or whatever they're called now), Windows Store, Edge Browser, Cortana and all feature updates.  Whether loosing any of those bits is a positive or negative is going to be up to individual preference and what you use/appreciate.  There's also that niggle of a home user / small business getting a license for it.

(https://sites.google.com/site/ddot98online/Win10LTSB.png)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Findecanor on Mon, 10 December 2018, 15:01:43
I have only a three year old tablet, which I use only for reading PDFs — which I copy over via USB stick.
I have not got it out of airplane mode for a year or more, and am afraid of what would happen if it started downloading updates. It has "only" 32 GB storage and most of that is used up already.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Mon, 10 December 2018, 16:32:12
It depends on your version of windows, on OEM (pre-instaleld) copies it tends to be on by default.

I have a few Win10 ISOs squirreled away, so I fired up virtualbox for a few tests.  I tried installing a few different releases of Win10 directly in a variety of releases, editions and architectures.  Then I tried installing Win7 a few times and upgrading via both the Microsoft Media Creation Tool and different Win10 ISOs.  Not once was I able to get the "suggested apps" to show up by default.  Maybe I just didn't hit that magical setup to make it appear.  Or maybe it's no longer enabled due to negative feedback or something.

Everyone but Enterprise gets Candy Crush.
Pretty sure it's the same for One Drive.

I also installed a fresh copy of Win10 Enterprise 1607 so see what was included by default.  Still get the Windows Store, Xbox, OneDrive, etc.  Can't tell on Candy Crush as there's still a few tiles that are refusing to update.

Show Image
(https://sites.google.com/site/ddot98online/Win10.png)


If you really want to thin down what's included, you need to go with Win10 Enterprise LTSB/LTSC.  Among other things, it's missing: Metro Apps (or whatever they're called now), Windows Store, Edge Browser, Cortana and all feature updates.  Whether loosing any of those bits is a positive or negative is going to be up to individual preference and what you use/appreciate.  There's also that niggle of a home user / small business getting a license for it.

Show Image
(https://sites.google.com/site/ddot98online/Win10LTSB.png)


Those pretty closely mirrored my experiences (I just had to reinstall it on two different boxes in VB for access to corporate VPN as I won't install their software on my personal box)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Mon, 10 December 2018, 18:13:30
I guess Microsoft is starting to learn from their mistakes. This is good news.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 18:45:48
I have a few Win10 ISOs squirreled away, so I fired up virtualbox for a few tests.  I tried installing a few different releases of Win10 directly in a variety of releases, editions and architectures.  Then I tried installing Win7 a few times and upgrading via both the Microsoft Media Creation Tool and different Win10 ISOs.  Not once was I able to get the "suggested apps" to show up by default.  Maybe I just didn't hit that magical setup to make it appear.  Or maybe it's no longer enabled due to negative feedback or something.

I tried the same with Pro and my best guess is they only trigger it on occasion and never when first installed, it's enabled, just not active. It may also depend on the exact ISO used and options you picked during install (Don't forget MS restores defaults at major updates, so while you disabled all that advertiser stuff on install, it will be back).


I just tested 4 different versions of Enterprise from RTM to the latest and not a one had that stuff in it, so I'm not sure what is up with your copy.
The first pic the number says it's the RTM copy (initial release), which may or may not have had One note, but nothing else. Regardless, it was not in the Dec 2016 (next major update) release. Your second pic is also the RTM install, so you have two copies of RTM, but they do not match, my bet is one has been alterred and may not even be Enterprise at all. Editing the registry to look like Enterprise is relatively easy.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 18:54:18
I have only a three year old tablet, which I use only for reading PDFs — which I copy over via USB stick.
I have not got it out of airplane mode for a year or more, and am afraid of what would happen if it started downloading updates. It has "only" 32 GB storage and most of that is used up already.
It can fit, but you would probably need a usb stick to perform the updates. It's ballooned quite a bit since it was released (as they always do, XP grew to three times it's initial size), I want to say it now needs 31gigs to run normal, but less to run compressed. I don't think it's possible to run on 16gigs at this point and have the latest updates.

I do know it warns you on anything less than 31gigs, but that isn't a compressed install. I'll toy with it in a few and see.



I guess Microsoft is starting to learn from their mistakes. This is good news.
Or just responding to backlash, laws, and learning to hide it better.

They removed the worst of the tracking bits (keylogging) when the EU forced them to reveal what all was being collected (thanks to France if I remember right). A patch was issued that removed that just before they told the EU and posted what all was collected, which was basically anything and everything. Now the Dutch are claiming all of it is illegal without consent, though I'm not sure this holds up since you agree to this garbage with the license agreement. Then again, those have been shown to be troublesome as well, so...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 19:16:52
I have only a three year old tablet, which I use only for reading PDFs — which I copy over via USB stick.
I have not got it out of airplane mode for a year or more, and am afraid of what would happen if it started downloading updates. It has "only" 32 GB storage and most of that is used up already.
Did some tests with the latest ISO.

32gigs it installed no problem, but it was left with only about 16.5gigs free. If you've used much of that you will probably need external storage to do major updates.
16gig was left with a pathetic 1gb of space free, so almost nothing can update without external storage. I'm still surprised it even installed.

By the way, you can set your connection as metered and it will not download updates. At least that way you can send your books through email or over the network. I would read the fine print though as it may do it anyway after a while.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 10 December 2018, 19:25:28
I have only a three year old tablet, which I use only for reading PDFs — which I copy over via USB stick.
I have not got it out of airplane mode for a year or more, and am afraid of what would happen if it started downloading updates. It has "only" 32 GB storage and most of that is used up already.
Did some tests with the latest ISO.

32gigs it installed no problem, but it was left with only about 16.5gigs free. If you've used much of that you will probably need external storage to do major updates.
16gig was left with a pathetic 1gb of space free, so almost nothing can update without external storage. I'm still surprised it even installed.

By the way, you can set your connection as metered and it will not download updates. At least that way you can send your books through email or over the network. I would read the fine print though as it may do it anyway after a while.

Leslie, have u tried them ebay oem keys? they reliable ?

Tp4 haz 10 xtra dollars this week.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 19:53:00
Leslie, have u tried them ebay oem keys? they reliable ?

Tp4 haz 10 xtra dollars this week.
OEM keys are fickle, though some sellers seem reputable.
It does create problems though, for one it really annoys MS (a good thing in my book) which could lead to them killing the program, my understanding is these keys are meant for poorer countries. I think the whole thing is BS, it costs what it costs, I don't think it should be super cheap in one place and yet super expensive here. Especially with digital goods. The ironic part is that excessive piracy is what caused this, so maybe we should pirate more and force MS to lower costs here... You laugh, but this is why China pays less for Windows than we do.

I have also seen OEM keys not transfer well. So you may get it cheap, but a mobo upgrade could mean buying another, which is what happened last time I tried moving a legit oem install to a different mobo and from one laptop to another. Even using a key wipe and trying to use the newer key created issues with the install, prompting a fresh install. I spent a whole weekend fighting all of this.

The most frustrating part of all of this is it only inconveniences legit users. I've even seen instances where it was easier to install MacOs on a PC than it was to install Windows.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Mon, 10 December 2018, 21:52:08
By the way, you can set your connection as metered and it will not download updates. At least that way you can send your books through email or over the network. I would read the fine print though as it may do it anyway after a while.

I don't recommend that unless you really know the effects on what you have.  My sync software stopped when I set it to metered.

I suggest as an alternative Windows Update Blocker (https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_update_blocker.html)  You can use that along with Windows Update Mini Tool (https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/windows-update-minitool.380535/) to regain control over your updates.   Note that with WUB enabled, the Microsoft Store also does not work.

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 10 December 2018, 22:13:12
Leslie, have u tried them ebay oem keys? they reliable ?

Tp4 haz 10 xtra dollars this week.
OEM keys are fickle, though some sellers seem reputable.
It does create problems though, for one it really annoys MS (a good thing in my book) which could lead to them killing the program, my understanding is these keys are meant for poorer countries. I think the whole thing is BS, it costs what it costs, I don't think it should be super cheap in one place and yet super expensive here. Especially with digital goods. The ironic part is that excessive piracy is what caused this, so maybe we should pirate more and force MS to lower costs here... You laugh, but this is why China pays less for Windows than we do.

I have also seen OEM keys not transfer well. So you may get it cheap, but a mobo upgrade could mean buying another, which is what happened last time I tried moving a legit oem install to a different mobo and from one laptop to another. Even using a key wipe and trying to use the newer key created issues with the install, prompting a fresh install. I spent a whole weekend fighting all of this.

The most frustrating part of all of this is it only inconveniences legit users. I've even seen instances where it was easier to install MacOs on a PC than it was to install Windows.

Well,  it has to be cheaper in other countries, because let's say you make 40,000 usd a year, they charge you 100 usd

People in China makes 40,000 yuan, (which is normal).  There's no way they can pay 600 yuan for software, you'd get 0x sales..  So 100 yuan / 6 = $16.

Though I'm also reading that these arn't oem keys, they're some other grey market / developer keys..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 23:09:25
I don't recommend that unless you really know the effects on what you have.  My sync software stopped when I set it to metered.

I suggest as an alternative Windows Update Blocker (https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_update_blocker.html)  You can use that along with Windows Update Mini Tool (https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/windows-update-minitool.380535/) to regain control over your updates.   Note that with WUB enabled, the Microsoft Store also does not work.
If you use anything like this, beware.
I agree with you on not trusting metered, but with any program that blocks or removes anything in Win10, be VERY, VERY careful. MS likes to juggle the registry stuff for things like this, one of the last times I used Win10Privacy I forgot to update it before I ran it. Ms had changed some keys and I completely trashed the install (luckily it was a new install). Make sure if you use this stuff that it's current and there has been no significant updates to windows since that release. You also may need to hold off an update until the patcher gets patched, or deal with the annoyances until it gets updated.

This is the problem with Win10, where before they simply removed some power user tools, this time they are actively fighting you from using actual power user tools to take back control.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 23:27:42
Well,  it has to be cheaper in other countries, because let's say you make 40,000 usd a year, they charge you 100 usd

People in China makes 40,000 yuan, (which is normal).  There's no way they can pay 600 yuan for software, you'd get 0x sales..  So 100 yuan / 6 = $16.

Though I'm also reading that these arn't oem keys, they're some other grey market / developer keys..
It wasn't about how much they could make, but more to do with Microsoft's inability to combat piracy over there.
I.P. doesn't exist in China as we know it so there is no legal and illegal copies, it's all the same. This means MS can't break down doors and put people out of business and instead have to compete with the pirates selling on the street corner. While they are making treaties to put some IP laws in place, China has a real habit of only enforcing things when it befits them.

If they are "developer keys" they are probably beta tester keys. My understanding is if you are willing to do so, MS will still give you a free copy, you just have to sign up for the Windows insider Program. I have one, it was what forced me off Windows and onto Linux.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 10 December 2018, 23:32:59
Well,  it has to be cheaper in other countries, because let's say you make 40,000 usd a year, they charge you 100 usd

People in China makes 40,000 yuan, (which is normal).  There's no way they can pay 600 yuan for software, you'd get 0x sales..  So 100 yuan / 6 = $16.

Though I'm also reading that these arn't oem keys, they're some other grey market / developer keys..
It wasn't about how much they could make, but more to do with Microsoft's inability to combat piracy over there.
I.P. doesn't exist in China as we know it so there is no legal and illegal copies, it's all the same. This means MS can't break down doors and put people out of business and instead have to compete with the pirates selling on the street corner. While they are making treaties to put some IP laws in place, China has a real habit of only enforcing things when it befits them.

If they are "developer keys" they are probably beta tester keys. My understanding is if you are willing to do so, MS will still give you a free copy, you just have to sign up for the Windows insider Program. I have one, it was what forced me off Windows and onto Linux.


Hahaha.. well.... that's a bit unfair..

Every nation enforces only what benefits them..

We just had a permanent resident get assassinated,  and the 'murican regime does nothing about it, because we need that middle east oil and a customer for our military hardware more than human rights..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 10 December 2018, 23:44:12
Every nation enforces only what benefits them..
Yes, but China tends to take that to an extreme.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 11 December 2018, 06:56:19
Every nation enforces only what benefits them..
Yes, but China tends to take that to an extreme.

So, Our beloved 'Murica selling weapons to stir up mid-est conflict , installing puppet regimes , 1raq war mainly killing civilians.

That is less extreme, than not respecting patent rights..


Don't get me wrong, China's got their skeletons nasty-s. (organ trade, prostitution, etc)

On the surface, you root for the team of which soil you reside, and if the oligarchs send you to war, heck, you line up..

But, during these moments where we have some room to free think, it's quite a waste not to reflect for ourselves that there are no good guys.. 



And it's really not even that people are inherently bad.. But you take millions of them together, add up the inefficiency and selfishness into what we general encircle as a nation,  this giant Pile is problem..

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 11 December 2018, 07:42:21
I don't recommend that unless you really know the effects on what you have.  My sync software stopped when I set it to metered.

I suggest as an alternative Windows Update Blocker (https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_update_blocker.html)  You can use that along with Windows Update Mini Tool (https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/windows-update-minitool.380535/) to regain control over your updates.   Note that with WUB enabled, the Microsoft Store also does not work.
If you use anything like this, beware.
I agree with you on not trusting metered, but with any program that blocks or removes anything in Win10, be VERY, VERY careful. MS likes to juggle the registry stuff for things like this, one of the last times I used Win10Privacy I forgot to update it before I ran it. Ms had changed some keys and I completely trashed the install (luckily it was a new install). Make sure if you use this stuff that it's current and there has been no significant updates to windows since that release. You also may need to hold off an update until the patcher gets patched, or deal with the annoyances until it gets updated.

This is the problem with Win10, where before they simply removed some power user tools, this time they are actively fighting you from using actual power user tools to take back control.

Point taken on them changing the registry on certain things; I tried to create an application to update the blocked hours (or whatever they used to call it), and they changed where they stored it.  But this doesn't do anything as intrusive.  It doesn't even touch the registry; it just does some things that you can do manually in an automated fashion using the services that are there for that purpose.

More about the methodology on the original source of the application: https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-1/

Well,  it has to be cheaper in other countries, because let's say you make 40,000 usd a year, they charge you 100 usd

People in China makes 40,000 yuan, (which is normal).  There's no way they can pay 600 yuan for software, you'd get 0x sales..  So 100 yuan / 6 = $16.

Though I'm also reading that these arn't oem keys, they're some other grey market / developer keys..
It wasn't about how much they could make, but more to do with Microsoft's inability to combat piracy over there.
I.P. doesn't exist in China as we know it so there is no legal and illegal copies, it's all the same. This means MS can't break down doors and put people out of business and instead have to compete with the pirates selling on the street corner. While they are making treaties to put some IP laws in place, China has a real habit of only enforcing things when it befits them.

If they are "developer keys" they are probably beta tester keys. My understanding is if you are willing to do so, MS will still give you a free copy, you just have to sign up for the Windows insider Program. I have one, it was what forced me off Windows and onto Linux.


Not necessarily.  I get several keys as part of MSDN, and they are true keys, not beta tester keys.  It's not permitted to sell them, but they don't really check.  It's just a licensing issue.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: ddot on Tue, 11 December 2018, 17:27:16
The first pic the number says it's the RTM copy (initial release), which may or may not have had One note, but nothing else.

For the first test, I used the ISO: "SW_DVD5_WIN_ENT_10_1607_64BIT_English_MLF_X21-07102.ISO". (Windows 10 Enterprise, Version 1607, Updated July 2016, x64). This would have its origins on VLSC. SHA-1: F9FFEA3A40BF39CCDE105BB064E153343560D73E.  As you can see in the About Windows in the screen shot, it's version 1607 from August 2016.  RTM would be Version 1507 from July 2015.  Wikipedia has a nice summary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_10_version_history) of the different versions and their release dates.

Your second pic is also the RTM install, so you have two copies of RTM, but they do not match, my bet is one has been alterred and may not even be Enterprise at all. Editing the registry to look like Enterprise is relatively easy.

For the second test, I used the ISO: "en_windows_10_enterprise_2016_ltsb_x64_dvd_9059483.iso". (Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB, Version 1607, Updated July 2016, x64).  This would have its origins on MSDN.  SHA1: 031ED6ACDC47B8F582C781B039F501D83997A1CF.  And you're right, this one isn't Enterprise, it's Enterprise LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch).  Related to Enterprise (probably a subset would be more accurate), but a completely separate edition.  (FYI, for anyone unfamiliar with LTSB, this article gives a fairly good primer (https://www.computerworld.com/article/3250464/microsoft-windows/faq-windows-10-ltsb-explained.html).)  As you can see in the About Windows in the screen shot, it's also version 1607.  You can also see the "LTSB" notation in the description.  This isn't some stripped down homebrew hack.  This is an official Microsoft release direct from the source.

Just for fun, I tried downloading the latest Windows 10 Enterprise Evaluation edition right from Microsoft's Evaluation Center (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/evaluate-windows-10-enterprise).  While it is evaluation, the only difference between it and full Enterprise is you can't activate it.  It's pretty easy for anyone to download and try, so it'll be easy for anyone to recreate this experiment.  (You can also download evaluation LTSB if anyone wants to play with that.)  I installed it on a fresh virtual machine.  No upgrades.  Nothing OEM.  Local account only.  Everything else was default.  Here's the result:

(https://sites.google.com/site/ddot98online/Win10EntEval.png)

Xbox, One Drive, the whole works (no Candy Crush though).  But here's the real fun part.  It also has the "suggested apps" we were trying to get before!  So I guess it does exist as long as you do things just right.

I can't comment on why we're seeing different results, but my experience is everything from home to pro to enterprise is basically the same.  You just get a few more features, a few more options and a few more bits of control at each step.  The only version that has any significant difference is LTSB.

Leslie, have u tried them ebay oem keys? they reliable ?

While Microsoft's free Windows 10 push ended in 2016, they never turned off the activation servers.  If you have a legally activated copy of Windows 7 or 8 (or even an illegally activated copy for the most part, depending on exactly how you did it), you can still do the upgrade and get a proper Windows 10 license.  Grab the Media Creation Tool from the Microsoft website (https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/software-download/windows10), run it on your Win 7/8 machine and watch Windows 10 magically appear.



Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 11 December 2018, 19:56:27
[...] and watch Windows 10 magically appear.

And then start crying :p
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 11 December 2018, 20:58:02
Got one of them grey keys.. .. it seems to activate...
 time will tell..


What are recommended speed settings.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 11 December 2018, 21:55:12
Not necessarily.  I get several keys as part of MSDN, and they are true keys, not beta tester keys.  It's not permitted to sell them, but they don't really check.  It's just a licensing issue.
I could have sworn they were locked  into beta, maybe that was only for people participating after the release. or it simply changed after I stopped using it. Not ready to burn a key just to test it.


So, Our beloved 'Murica selling weapons to stir up mid-est conflict , installing puppet regimes , 1raq war mainly killing civilians.
You're going way, way off topic.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 11 December 2018, 21:55:46
As you can see in the About Windows in the screen shot, it's version 1607 from August 2016.
Was it really 2015/1507? jeez. Though it was newer than that.
Guess I should have checked the numbers on my RTM copy after all.


This would have its origins on MSDN.  SHA1: 031ED6ACDC47B8F582C781B039F501D83997A1CF.  And you're right, this one isn't Enterprise, it's Enterprise LTSB (Long Term Servicing Branch).
You are correct, you definitely want LTSB or C not just plain Enterprise to avoid the garbage. You also want to avoid the education variants. Been a while since I dealt with anything but LTSB in terms of enterprise. I forgot they even had as many variants as they do. Blah.



While Microsoft's free Windows 10 push ended in 2016, they never turned off the activation servers.  If you have a legally activated copy of Windows 7 or 8 (or even an illegally activated copy for the most part, depending on exactly how you did it), you can still do the upgrade and get a proper Windows 10 license.  Grab the Media Creation Tool from the Microsoft website (https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/software-download/windows10), run it on your Win 7/8 machine and watch Windows 10 magically appear.
This is supposed to only work on OEM installs where others have done the upgrade or your retail copy was upgraded in the past. It shouldn't work on just any Win7 or 8 install, but surprisingly it still does. I guess they realized data harvesting paid better than they thought, that or they REALLY just want to kill Win7 (which they do).

Here is an article detailing it and how to deal with issues if you run into an error. I just tested it on a virtual machine and yes, it worked.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-you-can-still-get-a-free-windows-10-upgrade/

By the way, the amount of junk on a fresh system has reached epic proportions. Seriously, wtf
Stock is bad, but then pile on Lenovo or other stuff and it's becoming as bad as Win98 and XP used to be from terrible vendors. Funny how MS used to rail against companies doing that, even sold special edition computers for extra money that had nothing extra, now they do it themselves.

It's a feature, not a bug?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 11 December 2018, 22:01:57
What are recommended speed settings.
Go in disable all spying in personalization, disable sounds, disable visual effects you don't need (system settings in the old control panel)... Don't forget to unhide file extensions (this SHOULD be default!). Keep in mind, if you have a decent system, none of those will make a lick of difference in terms of performance. MS doesn't like people meddling and not only will it do little, they will reset a bunch of it next major update.

If you really want to make it better, look into some tools that manage updates and spying, maybe even remove some bloat, but again, remember they will mess with other parts of the system and of course, it will all be put back next major update and you get to do it all again.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Tue, 11 December 2018, 22:09:53
Not necessarily.  I get several keys as part of MSDN, and they are true keys, not beta tester keys.  It's not permitted to sell them, but they don't really check.  It's just a licensing issue.
I could have sworn they were locked  into beta, maybe that was only for people participating after the release. or it simply changed after I stopped using it. Not ready to burn a key just to test it.

(https://i.imgur.com/JYm9okD.png)

And the ones that I install from there are pretty bare.  Not sure what junk you're getting in your installs.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 12 December 2018, 05:44:47
And the ones that I install from there are pretty bare.  Not sure what junk you're getting in your installs.
I meant on Home and Pro editions, I did a Win8 Virtualbox install then upgraded it to Win10 to test what DDot said, and this is what I was left with.
Nothing but Virtualbox Guest Additions have been added to this and I may have disabled the "recommended apps" advertisement.

This drives me insane, worse, the laptop I worked on today had several tiles from Lenovo added to it as well as several menu entries.
[attach=1]

The full start menu is too large to be inline, click me
[attachurl=2]

Edit
While I was putting this together two new menu entries appeared, "Video Editor" and "3d viewer".
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 12 December 2018, 14:09:53
Win 10..   so far...


Pros:

High CPU load is more stable

Avx code is more stable

Win10 installed faster than Win7, prolly due to usb3.0 driver



Cons:

UI is sluggish vs Win7

Obfuscation

Advertisement

Definitive tracking/spying (Big Brother)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 December 2018, 10:38:51
UEFI vs Bios..

It doesn't seem to be booting any faster..

What am I doing wrong.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 15 December 2018, 16:49:23
UEFI vs Bios..

It doesn't seem to be booting any faster..

What am I doing wrong.


C'mon TP, you know UEFI is the new standard because kids these days don't know how to use the navigation cluster.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 December 2018, 17:09:32
UEFI vs Bios..

It doesn't seem to be booting any faster..

What am I doing wrong.


C'mon TP, you know UEFI is the new standard because kids these days don't know how to use the navigation cluster.

Hahahaha.. yea, but the documentation says it's supposed to boot faster because it can control more hardware directly.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 15 December 2018, 18:12:32
UEFI CAN be faster, but rarely is, but that is because of expectations and default settings.

One way it's faster is Windows cold boots.
Just like Windows 8, if you use Windows shutdown, it technically only goes to sleep. This is only possible because of UEFI. Do a restart or hold shift when shutting down to do a real shutdown. You can also disable Windows fast boot to make it work this way. In other words, you think it's no better because you've been lied to.

The other half of this is your bios settings.
You need to into bios and enable Fast Boot, this tells UEFI to not scan the hardware and just boot. It can shave seconds off your bios boot time. HOWEVER... Some bios have different levels for this setting, some do not and knowing what this setting does is very important. Certain levels of Fast Boot disable USB during boot, by this I mean, your keyboard will not work, so you will be unable to get into bios without either resetting bios or boot into Windows and holding shift and telling it to reboot into the UEFI menu. Not all options do this and newer systems will ignore all usb except the keyboard, but you need to know what it does before you set it and are unable to enter bios.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 15 December 2018, 18:30:30
By the way, a revelation came out the other day that explains why techs have been having problems with Win10 than normal Windows users.

Apparently, a while back Microsoft made a change to Windows Update without telling anyone, well, they did, on a blog post, but nothing mainstream. What changed? If you manually click Windows Update, you will get BETA updates. This is actually not stupid, the system handles updates just fine, and really only needs to be used if you are trying to fix an issue with a normal update, however, this is not how Windows update has ever run in the past, and worse, MS never bothered to tell anyone and that is BS.

So, why does this explain the problem techs have been having?
Because when we build a system, we often will hammer that in order to make sure the system is up to date before shipping a system to a customer. We don't want to have to leave it running for hours waiting for the system to decide when it wants to update and we often want to monitor the update process to make sure the system did it properly. We also don;t want to hand it off to a customer, then have them get home or arrive on a site to find it immediately needs to install some massive update (something I run into almost every time I work on a win10 system).

So all this time we've been doing this, we've been unknowingly installing what amounts to alpha or beta updates on customer systems.
Thanks, Microsoft, thank you very f'ing much.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 15 December 2018, 20:25:48

If you manually click Windows Update, you will get BETA updates.


Dayum! Who knew?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 15 December 2018, 20:29:58
(https://i.imgur.com/1LQoAA1.png)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 15 December 2018, 21:28:25
Apparently, a while back Microsoft made a change to Windows Update without telling anyone, well, they did, on a blog post, but nothing mainstream. What changed? If you manually click Windows Update, you will get BETA updates. This is actually not stupid, the system handles updates just fine, and really only needs to be used if you are trying to fix an issue with a normal update, however, this is not how Windows update has ever run in the past, and worse, MS never bothered to tell anyone and that is BS.

Link?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 15 December 2018, 21:29:55
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/1LQoAA1.png)


what is the meaning behind this ?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sat, 15 December 2018, 21:42:05
Show Image
(https://i.imgur.com/1LQoAA1.png)


what is the meaning behind this ?

I wanted to slap together some clipart to fit the mood of this thread.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 15 December 2018, 22:10:52
Link?
Summary
https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/650791/careful-windows-10-check-updates-button-may-download-beta-code/

Straight from the horses mouth...
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/12/10/windows-monthly-security-and-quality-updates-overview/#LcV9lITe3UqkOpIC.97
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Sat, 15 December 2018, 23:09:20
Link?
Summary
https://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/650791/careful-windows-10-check-updates-button-may-download-beta-code/

Straight from the horses mouth...
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2018/12/10/windows-monthly-security-and-quality-updates-overview/#LcV9lITe3UqkOpIC.97

Seems like looking at it they may have realized how it was being taken, and updated it since you first saw it, i.e.

Quote
Editor’s note: Edited on 12/14 to clarify that the “C” and “D” monthly releases are validated, production-quality optional releases.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 16 December 2018, 01:23:48
Seems like looking at it they may have realized how it was being taken, and updated it since you first saw it, i.e.

Quote
Editor’s note: Edited on 12/14 to clarify that the “C” and “D” monthly releases are validated, production-quality optional releases.
That doesn't actually change anything despite how it sounds and frankly just ticks me off even more.

Basically, if you have a weird issue, you can click the button and if you are lucky some "optional" update will fix your problem?
Take for instance the example where they used it to fix the Surface tablets bluescreening, okay, great, but who told you to click the button to get the update? What happens to those without a Surface and click the button? Was it validated safe for them? Why do non surface owners need it? How about all the other updates that came with it that you may not need?

Look, if they wanted this as an optional update to fix a problem I have no problem with it, but it needs to be labeled as such (click me to try and fix your problem). This is Russian Roulette without bothering to tell people they are even playing. Will this fix your problem, will it brick your system? Who knows, but here is a patch labeled as an update we told you nothing about anyway.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Sun, 16 December 2018, 08:49:06
Seems like looking at it they may have realized how it was being taken, and updated it since you first saw it, i.e.

Quote
Editor’s note: Edited on 12/14 to clarify that the “C” and “D” monthly releases are validated, production-quality optional releases.
That doesn't actually change anything despite how it sounds and frankly just ticks me off even more.

Basically, if you have a weird issue, you can click the button and if you are lucky some "optional" update will fix your problem?
Take for instance the example where they used it to fix the Surface tablets bluescreening, okay, great, but who told you to click the button to get the update? What happens to those without a Surface and click the button? Was it validated safe for them? Why do non surface owners need it? How about all the other updates that came with it that you may not need?

Look, if they wanted this as an optional update to fix a problem I have no problem with it, but it needs to be labeled as such (click me to try and fix your problem). This is Russian Roulette without bothering to tell people they are even playing. Will this fix your problem, will it brick your system? Who knows, but here is a patch labeled as an update we told you nothing about anyway.

They've had optional updates since the whole Windows Updaye became a thing.  You have alwats had to look at release notes to see if optiinal updates were something that you wanted to install.  Admittedly, this is a bit less granular, i. e. you install the whole optional update package or nothing, but they are updates that most will not need.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 17 December 2018, 03:28:02
They've had optional updates since the whole Windows Updaye became a thing.  You have alwats had to look at release notes to see if optiinal updates were something that you wanted to install.  Admittedly, this is a bit less granular, i. e. you install the whole optional update package or nothing, but they are updates that most will not need.

Yes, but win10 doesn't tell you about what the updates are anymore.
And these optional are not for everyone.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Mon, 17 December 2018, 06:51:36
you know UEFI is the new standard because kids these days don't know how to use the navigation cluster.

And as with other trends ("standards"), I tend to disable it on most of my laptops.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sun, 23 December 2018, 12:35:36
Needed to use a laptop with Win10 on it so that I could install LineageOS on my Mom's Tab 3 10.1" 3g (rooting software, etc.).

(..had to install the earliest version of gapps 7.1 <2017-08-29> but worked beautifully once that was sorted. Haven't had a complaint yet, so it must be working fine.).

I feel for anyone running win10 home with a single 5400rpm HDD. I'd set-up updates for as late as possible and never turn the damn PC off  :confused:.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 23 December 2018, 18:46:46
Needed to use a laptop with Win10 on it so that I could install LineageOS on my Mom's Tab 3 10.1" 3g (rooting software, etc.).

(..had to install the earliest version of gapps 7.1 <2017-08-29> but worked beautifully once that was sorted. Haven't had a complaint yet, so it must be working fine.).

I feel for anyone running win10 home with a single 5400rpm HDD. I'd set-up updates for as late as possible and never turn the damn PC off  :confused:.


Fresh install, it's not sooooo bad,  but give it about a week, sludge mode..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: TheNamesTy45 on Sun, 23 December 2018, 20:38:26
Win 10 on all of my machines.

Reasons why:


I have run Ubuntu (standard and MATE), Elementary OS, and Mint, but it's a no-go for me because I want full Visual Studio and Adobe products without having to either virtualize or use WINE or some other emulator.

If I had an officially supported way to run Mac OS on a system that I put together AND the Mac version of Visual Studio is up to par with the Windows version, I'd probably end up switching over to that as I really like the aesthetic of the OS and integration with iOS.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 23 December 2018, 21:43:07
I really like the aesthetic of the OS and integration with iOS.
Mac users often talk about this, but honestly, it's not nearly as great as they think it is and is far worse than outsiders think.

While it works fine, using OSX feels very clunky. It hasn't scaled well with technology (newer hardware bring expected increased speeds compared to Linux and Windows) and while the interface looks great, it was designed to be simple and look great sitting in a store or on a desk. If you're a person who has 3 or more things running at once, the interface quickly looses it's appeal, especially on a desktop with multiple screens and a mouse. In such a use case, the OS has more in common with XP than the slick functionality people rave about.

That said, if done right, a Hackintosh works perfectly fine, so well in fact that many Mac power users are building them instead of buying Apple computers, at least on the desktop. If you want a mac laptop, buy an Apple product, though I hesitate to recommend any Apple computer currently being sold.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: TheNamesTy45 on Sun, 23 December 2018, 21:52:25
I really like the aesthetic of the OS and integration with iOS.
Mac users often talk about this, but honestly, it's not nearly as great as they think it is and is far worse than outsiders think.

While it works fine, using OSX feels very clunky. It hasn't scaled well with technology (newer hardware bring expected increased speeds compared to Linux and Windows) and while the interface looks great, it was designed to be simple and look great sitting in a store or on a desk. If you're a person who has 3 or more things running at once, the interface quickly looses it's appeal, especially on a desktop with multiple screens and a mouse. In such a use case, the OS has more in common with XP than the slick functionality people rave about.

That said, if done right, a Hackintosh works perfectly fine, so well in fact that many Mac power users are building them instead of buying Apple computers, at least on the desktop. If you want a mac laptop, buy an Apple product, though I hesitate to recommend any Apple computer currently being sold.

Yeah, haven't loved the computer hardware from them, but I do like the way they handled multiple desktops better. My last job was a Mac shop, and it was nice being able to change the desktop on just one screen instead of all of them at once everytime like I have to do with Win 10. Also, for some reason if I'm in the task view on windows so that I can see all open apps on a virtual desktop, I can move a window from one virtual desktop to another on the same monitor, but never across monitors. Just something that needs a bit more polish on the windows side of things.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Sun, 23 December 2018, 22:12:50
A bit more polish... as if Microsoft hasn't had enough time to figure this crap out.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 24 December 2018, 03:42:58
A bit more polish... as if Microsoft hasn't had enough time to figure this crap out.

Polished enough yet ?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 24 December 2018, 03:44:14
I really like the aesthetic of the OS and integration with iOS.
Mac users often talk about this, but honestly, it's not nearly as great as they think it is and is far worse than outsiders think.

While it works fine, using OSX feels very clunky. It hasn't scaled well with technology (newer hardware bring expected increased speeds compared to Linux and Windows) and while the interface looks great, it was designed to be simple and look great sitting in a store or on a desk. If you're a person who has 3 or more things running at once, the interface quickly looses it's appeal, especially on a desktop with multiple screens and a mouse. In such a use case, the OS has more in common with XP than the slick functionality people rave about.

That said, if done right, a Hackintosh works perfectly fine, so well in fact that many Mac power users are building them instead of buying Apple computers, at least on the desktop. If you want a mac laptop, buy an Apple product, though I hesitate to recommend any Apple computer currently being sold.

Also, Madvr doesn't work on OSX..

So... that basically means one can't watch movies on OSX
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 24 December 2018, 04:36:43
A bit more polish... as if Microsoft hasn't had enough time to figure this crap out.
Apple has had a teensy bit longer.


Also, Madvr doesn't work on OSX..

So... that basically means one can't watch movies on OSX
Not sure what you're on about here, I've never had a problem playing something on OSX using VLC.

You can do just about anything in Mac as you can in Windows, you just may have to pay a bit more for it. Mac is extremely capitalistic, often bordering on highway robbery.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 24 December 2018, 05:07:30

Not sure what you're on about here, I've never had a problem playing something on OSX using VLC.

You can do just about anything in Mac as you can in Windows, you just may have to pay a bit more for it. Mac is extremely capitalistic, often bordering on highway robbery.


Madvr is currently the only playback block which offers full 1D + 3DLut color correction.

OSX will give you a picture,  but that picture is wrong.. and the OS itself only accepts 1D correction (white point, gamma and grey), but NO Gamut correction.

Only color managed applications such as Madvr+Mpc can reproduce Movies as intended..

https://www.lightillusion.com/luts.html



[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Mon, 24 December 2018, 08:42:03
A bit more polish... as if Microsoft hasn't had enough time to figure this crap out.
Apple has had a teensy bit longer.


Also, Madvr doesn't work on OSX..

So... that basically means one can't watch movies on OSX
Not sure what you're on about here, I've never had a problem playing something on OSX using VLC.

You can do just about anything in Mac as you can in Windows, you just may have to pay a bit more for it. Mac is extremely capitalistic, often bordering on highway robbery.

I'd imagine Apple knows the importance of having software testers for their enterprise, cloud, and home OSX variants.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 24 December 2018, 19:28:50
Madvr is currently the only playback block which offers full 1D + 3DLut color correction.

OSX will give you a picture,  but that picture is wrong.. and the OS itself only accepts 1D correction (white point, gamma and grey), but NO Gamut correction.

Only color managed applications such as Madvr+Mpc can reproduce Movies as intended..
Considering most of what we watch on a computer is compressed, that's not exactly a consideration for most people. 

Most people can't even be bothered to disable motion smoothing (interpolation) on their tv's, which drives me insane. Which is why most people don't own a color calibration tool, nor do they care to. In fact most people I do work for have no clue about monitor color and tend to buy the biggest, cheapest screen they can,  or simply use whatever monitor they have laying around. Which may not even be led backlit (do you know how far out of spec a CCFL screen is by now?).

Then there is the fact that your color correction for a movie is wrong anyhow.
Very few movies are recolored to a TV, they were actually colored for a theater screen, I.E. projection in a dark room. Even if it was recolored to produce proper tones on a TV, was it done for flat, projection, rear projection, or CRT?

At any rate...
Macs (most) don't even support surround sound, you need a dedicated DAC or high end sound card to get 5.1 or better and even then, Quicktime will not output more than stereo (I think there are exceptions but mot many). However, you don't see many people complaining do you? I can probably count the number of computers I've seen with more than 3 speakers on one hand after many years of repairing them. Why? because normal people don't care about that, and even less care about it on their computer. Which is why some newer motherboards have only 3 rear outputs... Most people don't use them. In fact when I went to figure out how to change them to support 5.1 (which requires software making it harder in Linux and Mac), the most common response I found was "Who uses analog output?". Which led me to wonder then how are people getting 5.1 without this or using an optical output and receiver? They don't. Most people use the crappy stereo speakers built into the monitor or an analog output from the back of the monitor to a pair of stereo speakers.

Why do you think people adapted to losing the audio jack so quickly?
It doesn't have to be perfect, it only has to be good enough. The same goes for color, they just want to watch Real Housewives or the Kardashians or some other garbage. Does it really matter if motion smoothing is on or the color is perfect? Heck no. Most of what is on TV and in theaters is crap anyhow.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: user 18 on Thu, 27 December 2018, 19:33:31
Question for those of you who seem to know where all the settings are on Win10. Is there an easy way to have focus follow the mouse cursor? I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground. I'd be interested in the former even if the latter isn't possible.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: chuckdee on Thu, 27 December 2018, 21:37:59
Question for those of you who seem to know where all the settings are on Win10. Is there an easy way to have focus follow the mouse cursor? I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground. I'd be interested in the former even if the latter isn't possible.

Try X-Mouse Controls: https://joelpurra.com/projects/X-Mouse_Controls/  It's probably about the closest you're going to get. 

I know that there were tweaks in windows 8, but not sure that they work in 10. 

https://winaero.com/blog/turn-on-xmouse-active-window-tracking-focus-follows-mouse-pointer-feature-in-windows-8-1-windows-8-and-windows-7/
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Nagato on Fri, 28 December 2018, 06:26:59
I use Windows 10 only for gaming
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 29 December 2018, 02:14:06
Question for those of you who seem to know where all the settings are on Win10. Is there an easy way to have focus follow the mouse cursor? I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground. I'd be interested in the former even if the latter isn't possible.

Try X-Mouse Controls: https://joelpurra.com/projects/X-Mouse_Controls/  It's probably about the closest you're going to get. 

I know that there were tweaks in windows 8, but not sure that they work in 10. 

https://winaero.com/blog/turn-on-xmouse-active-window-tracking-focus-follows-mouse-pointer-feature-in-windows-8-1-windows-8-and-windows-7/

As for most things with Windows, you have to install third party software.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 29 December 2018, 02:16:23
I really like the aesthetic of the OS and integration with iOS.
Mac users often talk about this, but honestly, it's not nearly as great as they think it is and is far worse than outsiders think.

While it works fine, using OSX feels very clunky. It hasn't scaled well with technology (newer hardware bring expected increased speeds compared to Linux and Windows) and while the interface looks great, it was designed to be simple and look great sitting in a store or on a desk. If you're a person who has 3 or more things running at once, the interface quickly looses it's appeal, especially on a desktop with multiple screens and a mouse. In such a use case, the OS has more in common with XP than the slick functionality people rave about.

That said, if done right, a Hackintosh works perfectly fine, so well in fact that many Mac power users are building them instead of buying Apple computers, at least on the desktop. If you want a mac laptop, buy an Apple product, though I hesitate to recommend any Apple computer currently being sold.

I usually have a dozen things running at once on two monitors at work under macOS Mojave (the latest).  Works well for me.

The only problem is the occasional app that starts on the "wrong" monitor.  Most apps you can specify you want to start on a specific monitor, a few I have not, such as Finder.  If I have focus on a window on the second monitor and start Finder, it will start on the second monitor, which is generally not what I want.  So Cmd-W (close window), click on main screen, Click Finder, all is good.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 29 December 2018, 04:53:53
I usually have a dozen things running at once on two monitors at work under macOS Mojave (the latest).  Works well for me.

The only problem is the occasional app that starts on the "wrong" monitor.  Most apps you can specify you want to start on a specific monitor, a few I have not, such as Finder.  If I have focus on a window on the second monitor and start Finder, it will start on the second monitor, which is generally not what I want.  So Cmd-W (close window), click on main screen, Click Finder, all is good.
Depending how how you set it up, video can't play across both screens, changing to where it does, causes conflicts with something else... I forget what.
You also can't have the dock on both, getting it to move across is a joke.

Switching tasks is fine, if you use the keyboard, but trying to switch using the mouse can mean crossing between windows or forcing the dock to popup on that screen... Also the dock hides, which can get in the way, or not come up as you need it, or it takes up part of the screen...  Or if I am on the second screen and want to launch something, again, chasing the dock. I just feel like I'm always chasing the darn thing so I can do something. And then there is how things continue to run in the background, I get that it is very good with memory, but I'm better. Just close? But again, I'm chasing the dock to locate it to shut it down.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: user 18 on Sat, 29 December 2018, 16:13:01
Question for those of you who seem to know where all the settings are on Win10. Is there an easy way to have focus follow the mouse cursor? I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground. I'd be interested in the former even if the latter isn't possible.

Try X-Mouse Controls: https://joelpurra.com/projects/X-Mouse_Controls/  It's probably about the closest you're going to get. 

I know that there were tweaks in windows 8, but not sure that they work in 10. 

https://winaero.com/blog/turn-on-xmouse-active-window-tracking-focus-follows-mouse-pointer-feature-in-windows-8-1-windows-8-and-windows-7/

Neat! Will have to take a look at that
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Sat, 29 December 2018, 23:02:17
I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground.

Note that the biggest annoyance in this regard, scrolling in inactive windows, has been fixed in Windows 10 itself.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Darkside on Sun, 30 December 2018, 20:07:50
Just for gaming tbh. My main is Mac OS.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 31 December 2018, 04:52:27
I usually have a dozen things running at once on two monitors at work under macOS Mojave (the latest).  Works well for me.

The only problem is the occasional app that starts on the "wrong" monitor.  Most apps you can specify you want to start on a specific monitor, a few I have not, such as Finder.  If I have focus on a window on the second monitor and start Finder, it will start on the second monitor, which is generally not what I want.  So Cmd-W (close window), click on main screen, Click Finder, all is good.
Depending how how you set it up, video can't play across both screens, changing to where it does, causes conflicts with something else... I forget what.
You also can't have the dock on both, getting it to move across is a joke.

Switching tasks is fine, if you use the keyboard, but trying to switch using the mouse can mean crossing between windows or forcing the dock to popup on that screen... Also the dock hides, which can get in the way, or not come up as you need it, or it takes up part of the screen...  Or if I am on the second screen and want to launch something, again, chasing the dock. I just feel like I'm always chasing the darn thing so I can do something. And then there is how things continue to run in the background, I get that it is very good with memory, but I'm better. Just close? But again, I'm chasing the dock to locate it to shut it down.

I don't play many videos at work, and most of those I watch on just a single screen (usually the main screen).

Chasing the Dock - maybe, although with mouse acceleration (or a sufficiently fast pointer) it's just a wrist flick to the side and click on the Dock.

Moving Dock from one screen to another is also trivial - just pull the mouse down at the bottom of the monitor where you want the Dock to appear.  A Dock split across two or more monitors would not work very well - the gap between the monitors would get in the way of Dock animations, although you can disable those too.  The same Dock appearing on each monitor?  I prefer the second monitor without Dock, then I have slightly more vertical space to arrange windows.

Most operating systems have different ways of handling multiple screens and multiple desktops - once you figure out a workflow on your particular operating system with 'n' monitors (n > 1) you are probably more efficient than someone without a workflow on a single monitor.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 31 December 2018, 18:03:12
Moving Dock from one screen to another is also trivial - just pull the mouse down at the bottom of the monitor where you want the Dock to appear.  A Dock split across two or more monitors would not work very well - the gap between the monitors would get in the way of Dock animations, although you can disable those too.  The same Dock appearing on each monitor?  I prefer the second monitor without Dock, then I have slightly more vertical space to arrange windows.
I tend to use each screen as a different workspace, keeping them relatively isolated from each other.
I know how to move the dock but waiting for it to kick over on a fast system can be an eternity, especially if you're work flow is moving fast. Splitting it, yeah, that doesn't work.

Also, losing that vertical space is one of my complaints about the UI. It looks great sitting idle, but in real world use you're either waiting on the dock or losing vertical space, how does that seem efficient? Worse, you are not just losing the dock space, but you also have a taskbar. Compare that to a system where you have all off it combined on a single taskbar it comes across as a poor design for actual use.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 31 December 2018, 18:13:57
Haven't read all the posts.  I will simply say.  My work requires a Windows workstation.  I run Win10 on my work, uhhh, workstation...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: user 18 on Tue, 01 January 2019, 16:08:13
I'd like to have the behaviour on my Windows machines match my linux, where the focus follows the mouse cursor, but the focused window is not necessarily brought to the foreground.

Note that the biggest annoyance in this regard, scrolling in inactive windows, has been fixed in Windows 10 itself.

This behaviour has nothing to do with why I like focus follows mouse, but good to know!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 01 January 2019, 23:56:32
Well, as expected, Win10 has now exceeded Win7 installs...It's all downhill from here for Win7.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 02 January 2019, 08:36:31
Well, as expected, Win10 has now exceeded Win7 installs...It's all downhill from here for Win7.


Nah... 10 more years.. easily..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: sinusoid on Wed, 02 January 2019, 11:26:56
"Windows ""workstation"" "

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/15b9654e-5da7-45b7-93de-e8b63faef064/windows-10-does-not-let-cuda-applications-to-use-all-vram-on-especially-secondary-graphics-cards

For me, it's slow, stable, and bloated. Even the LTSB/C versions run sluggishly compared to 7. It has a lot of unobvious quirks if you want to poweruser your way around. It's like that cheap crap steel multitool you keep in the toolbox just because it has that weird screwdriver bit you need to keep using.

The only upside of windows 10 that I experienced is that people start to publish and maintain powershell scripts to tame that beast, like this one here:
https://github.com/Disassembler0/Win10-Initial-Setup-Script

edit:
I use Debian whenever possible, also maintaining several Manjaro machines. I'm considering doing a software compatibility list to see if I can remove Windows from the pipeline completely, and move the necessary stuff to OSX.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 02 January 2019, 19:10:09
Nah... 10 more years.. easily..
I had a customer a few years ago who still had a Windows 98 machine running her contact list, so it's possible but I think you underestimate how badly manufacturers want Win7 to die.

I think people also forget that Win7 was already dealt a death blow by Intel and AMD over a year ago. It's not going to hang around like XP did.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 02 January 2019, 19:15:09
The only upside of windows 10 that I experienced is that people start to publish and maintain powershell scripts to tame that beast, like this one here:
https://github.com/Disassembler0/Win10-Initial-Setup-Script
While tweak tools are great, the difference in Win10 is that MS resets all of this every major updates and relocates where the tweaks reside. Yes, you can just re-run the script once it updates to match, but you are chasing updates.

Something I learned the hard way was that if you forget to update the script before running it you can brick the system. Luckily it was a fresh install and I had the customers data backed up, but it still made for a long night.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: ArchDill on Wed, 02 January 2019, 19:15:56
I felt so liberated going back to Mac OS after being on Windows for a few years
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: audiosl4ve on Thu, 03 January 2019, 13:18:09
have too little $ to buy proper Mac, and i'm tired of dualbooting linux. If i had alternative i'd probably be on something else, like Manjaro or Arch. Too little free time, too much stuff to do :(
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: sinusoid on Thu, 03 January 2019, 20:25:02
While tweak tools are great, the difference in Win10 is that MS resets all of this every major updates and relocates where the tweaks reside. Yes, you can just re-run the script once it updates to match, but you are chasing updates.

Something I learned the hard way was that if you forget to update the script before running it you can brick the system. Luckily it was a fresh install and I had the customers data backed up, but it still made for a long night.

Same experience here. I disabled the automatic updates, and I'm treating every update as a potential hazard. I avoid updating during intense deadlines, or times when the windows machines need to remain functional. If something goes wrong, I nuke the system and do a fresh install. Time consuming, and not necessarily the best security practice, but it pays back in predictability and productivity.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 03 January 2019, 21:51:55
have too little $ to buy proper Mac, and i'm tired of dualbooting linux. If i had alternative i'd probably be on something else, like Manjaro or Arch. Too little free time, too much stuff to do :(
Very few Apple are worth the money anyhow, so no loss.

As for dual booting, i agree, it's a hassle, and worse, isn't the same as using a single OS despite how it seems. Yes, it functions as a sole OS, however when you dual boot you are way too eager to just pop back into whichever OS you are most familiar with every time you get stuck on something instead of taking the time to figure out how to do it on the other OS. Just switch and be done with it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: thearctican on Thu, 03 January 2019, 22:55:11
have too little $ to buy proper Mac, and i'm tired of dualbooting linux. If i had alternative i'd probably be on something else, like Manjaro or Arch. Too little free time, too much stuff to do :(
Very few Apple are worth the money anyhow, so no loss.

As for dual booting, i agree, it's a hassle, and worse, isn't the same as using a single OS despite how it seems. Yes, it functions as a sole OS, however when you dual boot you are way too eager to just pop back into whichever OS you are most familiar with every time you get stuck on something instead of taking the time to figure out how to do it on the other OS. Just switch and be done with it.

This. I run Debian full time on my laptop, and Windows on my desktop - I really only play games on the desktop, though, so it's more or less a steam machine.
I did try the whole dual booting thing on the desktop, but I ended up just preferring Windows and repurposed the SSD Linux was installed on.

Windows 10 has been fine; It's a bit of a pain having to remember what things have to be changed in the 'settings' app versus the regular old control panel. Other than taking care of the usual fare (disabling auto updates etc. etc.) I have no complaints.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: MonsterZero on Fri, 04 January 2019, 05:17:30
Running a heavily cut LTSC W10 (telemetry and cortana cut out) and it's the best ever (for my needs)  :D
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Wed, 09 January 2019, 20:13:53
Running Windows 10 on my desktop and ThinkPad. I find it to be very fast and stable, with probably the best software selection, and good use of space. I like how everything seems to respond instantly, without ever the need for having to repeat input. It's also easy to run even very old software without much issue. Having said that, the forced updates are irritating (though they haven't yet caused me grief, no doubt they will), and I don't like the direction they're taking with regards to privacy. Funny thing is when I use other Windows 10 machines they're always so miserable, usually bogged down by the awful default settings, a slow HDD, and junk software all over -- night and day difference from my systems.

macOS drives me crazy these days so I moved away from it entirely. It's so slow, constantly blocking your input, and they can't seem to even get window management right (fullscreen, snapping, etc). And these days it's full enough of issues, and updates frequently break software.

Linux is fantastic these days. Mint Xfce looks and runs very well. It still isn't quite as polished in terms of feel as Windows 10, but it's still a joy to use with so many different purposes.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 10 January 2019, 06:09:28
Mint is a security problem (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/) though.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: sinusoid on Thu, 10 January 2019, 07:42:51
without ever the need for having to repeat input.

Maybe it's the versions I'm using, but I keep on having to click or press a key during logon for the password prompt to appear. This is driving me crazy. I'm used to just slamming the pass in on every linux distro I use, maybe with the exception of Manjaro+Gnome that can lag to hell.

Also, I'm absolutely bugged out by how Windows tool/app devs treat their source code. There is plenty of useful tools for Windows tweaking, labeled as opensource, but you have to PM the dev on some weird forum to get a glimpse of it. Or believe a random guy on Reddit. Or, you have a link from 3 years ago to source that got outdated. Or you get a Github/Gitlab account with an opensource script that calls a bunch of .exe files. The community mindset seems to be that if it works, it's legit. The dev mindset is TRUST ME BRO ITS 100% легит, NO VIRUS.

The tool development process is outrageous as well, it's people sending the code back and forth adding edits and signature tags who modified when and whom to credit. I appreciate the Pouet feel, but ffs we're no longer in the 90's. The arcane/magic/occult warez feel of every single f%&^$&^ thing i find is giving me oculorectal cancer. Everything outside of tools coming from disillusioned corporate greybeard admins ( think https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 and the repo it's forked from) feels like script kiddie puke coming from someone who actually codes in anon-mask-gloves-and-hoodie outfit, while actually it's often made by people with vast knowledge and years of experience.

Example: install_wim_tweak.exe from https://github.com/adolfintel/Windows10-Privacy . Search for that one.

Or try following this bug report on Github: https://github.com/henrypp/simplewall/issues/295 . Follow the white rabbit.

[attachimg=1]

This is anecdotal info from a few years back, but I've heard that in-house devs working on Windows have/had similar software development patterns. Can't blame them, though - this usually warrants employment in corporate environment.

What this results in is that tweaking anything in linux/bsd is actually more time efficient, effective, and deterministic than trying to snake-charm windows into doing what you want.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Thu, 10 January 2019, 15:58:22
Mint is a security problem (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/) though.

Doesn't this vulnerability apply to "most major distributions", though?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 10 January 2019, 16:13:15
Excluding Gentoo, Slackware and Void, yes. (And a few minor ones.)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Thu, 10 January 2019, 16:39:37
According to that article (http://''https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/") Fedora 28-29 and OpenSuse Leap 15.0 are also excluded from the distros that are vulnerable.

More on topic: I'd say that even though my KDE/Plasma experience has been limited to a solid week of testing, I've already noticed significant polish/UI upgrades in comparison to my Win10 experience (same hardware).  Never thought I'd say that that.  Still KDE/Plasma is not for everyone--thought I'd throw that out into the ether.  If it wasn't for my issues with Win10 pcie wifi support I wouldn't have switched to Linux in the first place.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 10 January 2019, 19:46:32
Maybe it's the versions I'm using, but I keep on having to click or press a key during logon for the password prompt to appear. This is driving me crazy. I'm used to just slamming the pass in on every linux distro I use, maybe with the exception of Manjaro+Gnome that can lag to hell.
Sounds like the display manager (in this case probably GDM) causing this. There is probably an option to change that.



Also, I'm absolutely bugged out by how Windows tool/app devs treat their source code. There is plenty of useful tools for Windows tweaking, labeled as opensource, but you have to PM the dev on some weird forum to get a glimpse of it. Or believe a random guy on Reddit. Or, you have a link from 3 years ago to source that got outdated. Or you get a Github/Gitlab account with an opensource script that calls a bunch of .exe files. The community mindset seems to be that if it works, it's legit. The dev mindset is TRUST ME BRO ITS 100% легит, NO VIRUS.

I ran into this exact problem just 2 days ago when looking for a Hiren's boot cd so I could fix a Windows password issue.
I found a .com, and a .org, as well as many other sites hosting copies of it. So which is authentic? None actually. Hiren stopped development on it in 2012 (which I was aware of). A community picked it up, but so have scammers and anyone who thought they could make a buck selling his work.



Example: install_wim_tweak.exe from https://github.com/adolfintel/Windows10-Privacy . Search for that one.

Windows 10 privacy...  There are so many clones, fakes and similarly named programs it's insane. Pretty much anything claiming privacy in Win10 should be treated the same as anti-malware, most of it is BS and will probably do more harm than good. Be warned, if Windows updates and the tool has not you can brick the install. I'm sure you can figure out how I know this.

I've not used the one listed, but I have used these and they have a decent reputation. Or did when I was using them.
O&O Shutup 10 (https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10) - Easy, simple, but not as thorough. Should be safe for most people.
Ashampoo Antispy (https://www.ashampoo.com/en/usd/pin/1004/security-software/antispy-for-windows-10) - Similar to the above, but may be a bit more thorough (been a while since I used some of these).
Win10 privacy (https://www.winprivacy.de/english-home/) - This was one of the first real in depth tools. It's probably one of the most brutal and will gut Win10 to the extent it gimps the OS. Not for the timid or inexperienced. You can really mess up your system with this if you push it too far.

After dealing with Win10 and how fragile it can be (I've killed it more than a few times), I don't install anything on my system or customer systems without testing it in a VM first to check for crashing and secondary installs, then hit it with an AV scan and sometimes a firewall check as well.  I don't trust the Win10 ecosystem at all.
I've reached a point now where I pretty much won't install anything on Windows I have not tested before without running it in a virtual system
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 10 January 2019, 19:49:02
and good use of space.
It is by far the most bloated OS you can use today, and that was before they announced the new 7GB space grab.*

*Win10 is now going to reserve an extra 7 gigs to make sure updates actually install. Why they were not checking for drive space requirements before installing patches before, I have no idea, but apparently they were not and updates were failing. Good luck to anyone running Win10 on a 32gig ssd.



I'd say that even though my KDE/Plasma experience has been limited to a solid week of testing, I've already noticed significant polish/UI upgrades in comparison to my Win10 experience (same hardware).  Never thought I'd say that that. 
It's surprisingly good.
Theme options could be better, maybe a bit faster to boot up, but otherwise, yeah, I'm liking it.  More stable than Gnome and Cinnamon was for me.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Thu, 10 January 2019, 22:30:21
and good use of space.
It is by far the most bloated OS you can use today, and that was before they announced the new 7GB space grab.*

*Win10 is now going to reserve an extra 7 gigs to make sure updates actually install. Why they were not checking for drive space requirements before installing patches before, I have no idea, but apparently they were not and updates were failing. Good luck to anyone running Win10 on a 32gig ssd.

I should have been more clear, I was thinking of good use of screen space when I said that. Not all that different from Xfce, mind you, but much better than Apple's seemingly near-random windows floating around. Not sure how many people are using 32 GB drives these days but you're right.

After dealing with Win10 and how fragile it can be (I've killed it more than a few times), I don't install anything on my system or customer systems without testing it in a VM first to check for crashing and secondary installs, then hit it with an AV scan and sometimes a firewall check as well.  I don't trust the Win10 ecosystem at all.
I've reached a point now where I pretty much won't install anything on Windows I have not tested before without running it in a virtual system

I'm sure your experience with it is far more thorough and advanced than mine. Having said that, I've pretty much never had an issue with anything with semi-advanced consumer use.

By comparison, I've had such stupid stuff go wrong with macOS these days. I tried upgrading from El Capitan to High Sierra on one of our MacBook Pros, and it required the drive to be formatted in APFS... only, once it formatted APFS it couldn't use it because the firmware had not yet been updated to support APFS, which happens apparently when you install High Sierra. To make things worse, the disk tool wouldn't reformat the drive at all in any sense (other than to reformat APFS), so I had to remove the drive and mount it on my Windows desktop to reformat it and try again. I'm having a heck of a time just getting the thing going, with even the internet restore not working. Such simple things shouldn't be such trouble, but alas, this is the state of computing in 2019 it would seem.  :-X
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 11 January 2019, 01:37:20
I should have been more clear, I was thinking of good use of screen space when I said that. Not all that different from Xfce, mind you, but much better than Apple's seemingly near-random windows floating around. Not sure how many people are using 32 GB drives these days but you're right.
That makes more sense, and yeah, it's pretty good on that front.

There are a TON of sub $300 laptops, tablets and mini desktops using 32gig flash storage.



I'm sure your experience with it is far more thorough and advanced than mine. Having said that, I've pretty much never had an issue with anything with semi-advanced consumer use.

By comparison, I've had such stupid stuff go wrong with macOS these days. I tried upgrading from El Capitan to High Sierra on one of our MacBook Pros, and it required the drive to be formatted in APFS... only, once it formatted APFS it couldn't use it because the firmware had not yet been updated to support APFS, which happens apparently when you install High Sierra. To make things worse, the disk tool wouldn't reformat the drive at all in any sense (other than to reformat APFS), so I had to remove the drive and mount it on my Windows desktop to reformat it and try again. I'm having a heck of a time just getting the thing going, with even the internet restore not working. Such simple things shouldn't be such trouble, but alas, this is the state of computing in 2019 it would seem.  :-X

It's probably safe to say at this point that you've used Win10 way more than I have.
The only time I use Win10 is either setting up a new system or when it has issues, my customers have only managed to escaped a couple high profile issues. I have a laptop or two with Win10, but I mostly keep them in case I need to walk someone through a problem over the phone or experimentation, they aren't used otherwise.

Kind of surprised at the Mac, then again, I've thought for a while Apple has let it fall into disrepair. I don't care what Apple says, I give it 2-3 years before everything is basically an Ipad Pro.

My advice, format it with Linux, it can often fix Mac drive problems, if that fails, use a Windows install disk, that will guaranteed redo all the partitions on it (seriously, Windows is a virus!). Then go download an installer for Macos and install from a thumbdrive. However... Before you do any of that, put it back in Windows or Linux and check the S.M.A.R.T. data, you may have a drive that is failing and Mac is just unable to communicate that to you. Diagnostics are something Apple fails at miserably.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Fri, 11 January 2019, 09:26:46
and good use of space.
It is by far the most bloated OS you can use today, and that was before they announced the new 7GB space grab.*

*Win10 is now going to reserve an extra 7 gigs to make sure updates actually install. Why they were not checking for drive space requirements before installing patches before, I have no idea, but apparently they were not and updates were failing. Good luck to anyone running Win10 on a 32gig ssd.



I'd say that even though my KDE/Plasma experience has been limited to a solid week of testing, I've already noticed significant polish/UI upgrades in comparison to my Win10 experience (same hardware).  Never thought I'd say that that. 
It's surprisingly good.
Theme options could be better, maybe a bit faster to boot up, but otherwise, yeah, I'm liking it.  More stable than Gnome and Cinnamon was for me.

Boot time wasn't that bad once I switched to LTS.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 11 January 2019, 23:30:17
Boot time wasn't that bad once I switched to LTS.
It's not bad, just a bit slower. I think mine slowed about 2 seconds going from Cinnamon to KDE.

I know, some people are saying "Oh no, 2 whole seconds!"
Yes, I know, the horror, for most systems that's barely even recognizable, but on my system it signifies a 50% longer boot time when you discount bios and GRUB. For someone on a slower system, it could be a considerable time difference.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: BundleOfJoysticks on Sat, 12 January 2019, 00:42:34
I use Windows by choice, though I'm moving away from it and am now running Fedora on two of my home machines.

There is literally nothing I like about Mac OS and Apple computers. The keyboards suck. The touchbar and absence of Esc key suck. The lack of serviceability and upgrades sucks. The price sucks. The reliability is abysmal (20% failure rate on the fleet I manage for work). The font smoothing is ugly. No touch screens. The global menu is an abomination. The keyboard shortcuts are all wrong. The monospace fonts are ugly. The fact apps are still running and using resources even when you click the close button is wrong. The fact that alt tabbing to a minimized window literally does nothing with no feedback to the user instead of restoring the window is stupid. All the unixy stuff is in the wrong place. The semi case sensitive file system is wrong. The smugness of the rails and JavaScript devs who have embraced Macs unquestioningly is irritating. The disregard for backward compatibility sucks. Textedit is a flaming piece of **** that requires acrobatics to save files as plain text. The finder is the worst piece of **** software I have ever used. iTunes is the second worst.

Windows is good. It just works on millions of random hardware setups. But I've reached my limit with the forcible setting resets, reboots, and telemetry. So I ditched windows for Fedora and so far it's going reasonably well. Desktop Linux is still a **** show with more bugs in it than a motorcyclist's mustache, but functionally it's 90% of the way there and the stupid bugs and permanent beta software are fixable. The only worry is when I need to use Excel or Word, because libre/open office are complete tire fires.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 13 January 2019, 00:25:13
The keyboards suck.
The reliability is abysmal (20% failure rate on the fleet I manage for work).
No touch screens.
The fact apps are still running and using resources even when you click the close button is wrong.
The disregard for backward compatibility sucks.
The older keyboards were pretty good, their quest for thinner and thinner was their downfall. We've passed the point of practicality.
Never buy anything with a dedicated GPU from Apple unless it can be swapped. It's not always Apple's fault, but regardless of who's fault, it always ends bad.
I go out of my way to avoid buying laptops with touch screens as they're glossy, add cost, use battery and add size and weight for something I don't use.
Like Android, memory management compensates for these idle programs quite well. I don't like it, but it does work. It's why a Mac can run decent on just 4gb of ram.
Some backwards compatibility is good, Windows puts too much emphasis on this while Apple puts too little.

Desktop Linux is still a **** show with more bugs in it than a motorcyclist's mustache, but functionally it's 90% of the way there and the stupid bugs and permanent beta software are fixable.
As you have found, you have to pick your trade-offs with every OS.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Sun, 13 January 2019, 12:57:44
I'm sure your experience with it is far more thorough and advanced than mine. Having said that, I've pretty much never had an issue with anything with semi-advanced consumer use.

By comparison, I've had such stupid stuff go wrong with macOS these days. I tried upgrading from El Capitan to High Sierra on one of our MacBook Pros, and it required the drive to be formatted in APFS... only, once it formatted APFS it couldn't use it because the firmware had not yet been updated to support APFS, which happens apparently when you install High Sierra. To make things worse, the disk tool wouldn't reformat the drive at all in any sense (other than to reformat APFS), so I had to remove the drive and mount it on my Windows desktop to reformat it and try again. I'm having a heck of a time just getting the thing going, with even the internet restore not working. Such simple things shouldn't be such trouble, but alas, this is the state of computing in 2019 it would seem.  :-X

It's probably safe to say at this point that you've used Win10 way more than I have.
The only time I use Win10 is either setting up a new system or when it has issues, my customers have only managed to escaped a couple high profile issues. I have a laptop or two with Win10, but I mostly keep them in case I need to walk someone through a problem over the phone or experimentation, they aren't used otherwise.

Kind of surprised at the Mac, then again, I've thought for a while Apple has let it fall into disrepair. I don't care what Apple says, I give it 2-3 years before everything is basically an Ipad Pro.

My advice, format it with Linux, it can often fix Mac drive problems, if that fails, use a Windows install disk, that will guaranteed redo all the partitions on it (seriously, Windows is a virus!). Then go download an installer for Macos and install from a thumbdrive. However... Before you do any of that, put it back in Windows or Linux and check the S.M.A.R.T. data, you may have a drive that is failing and Mac is just unable to communicate that to you. Diagnostics are something Apple fails at miserably.

My experience with Apple computers has degraded far beyond the point where I can recommend them anymore, especially at their prices. Between all the hardware issues like the new keyboards, flexgate, the T2 chip causing all kinds of problems, the fully-soldered components with next to no ability to recover data, to macOS falling behind and apart... it just isn't a good experience anymore. I find most of what Apple does these days works against my best interest, generally in favor of theirs.

Windows 10 hasn't really missed a beat for me yet. With the direction they're taking, I'm sure it's only a matter of time. I dislike their telemetry stuff and forced updates quite a bit, and it could be what drives me away from them. However, Windows has extremely good software availability (especially for engineering) and seems to work very quickly (no input blocking/animation delays) and intuitively -- after setting it up. The default settings for the Start menu and taskbar are frustrating, but at least it lets me set it more like Xfce. Windows is also the best for gaming hands down, which means I need to at least have it for that.

Linux (Mint Xfce is my current choice) is great in many ways, and I think it makes a solid daily driver for many people who need little more than a browser these days. Like everyone, I wish certain software were available but for engineering it's actually not too bad, certainly better than macOS in that regard. The freedom of Linux is a breathe of fresh air to me.

Ultimately the reason I use Windows 10 is because it works very well for me and guarantees I can do everything I need to do (and quickly, efficiently, and at a reasonable cost, at that). I'm not forced to buy hardware that I don't want just to use it, not forced into an 'ecosystem' that requires I do things a certain way that makes me worse off.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: qorg11 on Sun, 13 January 2019, 13:13:04
Windows? I haven't heard that operating system in years..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: audiosl4ve on Sun, 13 January 2019, 13:44:58
Windows? I haven't heard that operating system in years..

well lucky you!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: outhentusiast on Tue, 15 January 2019, 21:01:59
Yes it was installed by default on my laptop, so I didn't decide to put another OS while it on warranty

But tbh, I personally like win7 and run it on my main PC
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 16 January 2019, 02:10:43
Yes it was installed by default on my laptop, so I didn't decide to put another OS while it on warranty

But tbh, I personally like win7 and run it on my main PC
Live dangerously!
You can image it and restore it later if you need service. Done it before.

Many manufacturers  also will not hassle you over this, but more importantly, in most countries (including the US) it's illegal to deny warranty service for such a thing so long as it did not contribute to the problem.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: StickyBlueJuice on Wed, 16 January 2019, 02:12:30
Yes it was installed by default on my laptop, so I didn't decide to put another OS while it on warranty

But tbh, I personally like win7 and run it on my main PC
Live dangerously!
You can image it and restore it later if you need service. Done it before.

Many manufacturers  also will not hassle you over this, but more importantly, in most countries (including the US) it's illegal to deny warranty service for such a thing so long as it did not contribute to the problem.
Currently using Win10 on my work laptop. SOOOO tempted to install something else on it.
I am just worried the programs we use at work won't be available on Linux.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 16 January 2019, 20:43:48
Currently using Win10 on my work laptop. SOOOO tempted to install something else on it.
I am just worried the programs we use at work won't be available on Linux.
What programs, even if not exact, there are often compatible equivalents and you can use Wine or VM for others.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 17 January 2019, 01:13:42
If you need WINE, you need Windows.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 05:32:09
If you need WINE, you need Windows.
10 years ago you would be almost completely right.
5 years ago, mostly right.
Today, that's almost completely wrong.

Quite a lot of top tier games are now running on it (Far Cry 5, BF5, Fortnite, Falllout76...) and I have Photoshop and Illustrator running just fine on Playonlinux. Some older games even run better in Linux than in Windows. Only time I need Windows is for CAD, but even that has some workarounds.

I'm not saying it's always easy, but it can be done and it's getting faster, easier and more competent all the time.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 17 January 2019, 05:42:42
Even today, the only reason to use WINE is to be able to use Windows applications. If your operating system requires a not-quite-emulator to run good applications, your operating system might be the wrong one for you.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 06:43:36
Even today, the only reason to use WINE is to be able to use Windows applications. If your operating system requires a not-quite-emulator to run good applications, your operating system might be the wrong one for you.
"good applications"? You're either trolling or ignorant of what's out there.

Also, it's not a "not-quite-emulator", it's not an emulator at all and I see no reason to install Windows just so I can run one or two programs.
I'd rather learn Gimp than have to use Win10 just to run Photoshop, and I haaaaate Gimp (some people prefer it).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 17 January 2019, 06:50:15
I dislike Photoshop as well, I usually use Paint.NET. But even that has no good Linux alternative.

If there is good native Linux software, why do you want to run Windows software on it?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: StickyBlueJuice on Thu, 17 January 2019, 06:54:30
Currently using Win10 on my work laptop. SOOOO tempted to install something else on it.
I am just worried the programs we use at work won't be available on Linux.
What programs, even if not exact, there are often compatible equivalents and you can use Wine or VM for others.
Well the main one is FirstClass for work.
I don't know if it'll run in wine or playonlinux, but there's only one way of finding out I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Thu, 17 January 2019, 08:44:11
If I had a choice I'd choose Windows in a VM over Wine--especially for cloud type things like Adobe suite or Autodesk. Proton is a great start, but Wine ain't what the people want.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 19:28:31
I dislike Photoshop as well, I usually use Paint.NET. But even that has no good Linux alternative.

If there is good native Linux software, why do you want to run Windows software on it?
Pinta is similar to Paint.net.
Gimp is capable of 99% of what Photoshop can do (which is far more than most people need) I just hate using it. The workflow is entirely different and I would need to relearn too much for something I don't use very often.

But why use Windows programs on Linux? I don't need or want Windows and all that it brings with it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 19:30:53
Well the main one is FirstClass for work.
I don't know if it'll run in wine or playonlinux, but there's only one way of finding out I'm afraid.
If you mean the educational program, they have native Mac, Linux, Ios and Android clients.

As for testing, you can run Virtualbox, install Linux, then install the client into that.


If I had a choice I'd choose Windows in a VM over Wine--especially for cloud type things like Adobe suite or Autodesk. Proton is a great start, but Wine ain't what the people want.
I start with Wine, then work my way down through the options with a VM being the last choice, simply because it's a more native and less intrusive approach.

Proton/Lutris and PlayonLinux are all using Wine as a base, as is Crossover.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: no, the other guy on Thu, 17 January 2019, 19:36:14
Pinta looks not un-interesting. I might try it one day, thank you.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 20:06:45
Pinta looks not un-interesting. I might try it one day, thank you.
You're welcome.
Seriously, Linux has lots more to offer than you think.

I ran dual boot for years and never knew how much was there because any time I got stuck I ran back to Windows. Linux is every bit as capable as Mac, but you don't hear Mac users complain, why? It's not because Mac has much better software (it's about the same it just costs more!), it's because Mac users were unable to just dip their toes in, they had to dive into the deep end and learn to swim. Windows users trying Linux are just testing the water so you never find places to help you find what you need, you just boot back into Windows and do it. I know, I did it for years.

It wasn't until my Windows drive failed and I realized I hadn't really used it much that I decided not to bother. Suddenly I was finding all sorts of programs and sites I was unaware of and Linux opened up completely.  The same happened to me when I tried Mac on my PC, I dipped my toes and never invested in it, then I ran it exclusively and forced myself to figure it out and suddenly I was finding the software I never new existed. I've heard from others they experienced the same thing.

For anyone curious, I documented a lot of my OS experiences in this thread (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94156.0). If anyone is considering alternatives, it's not a bad place to start.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: csmertx on Thu, 17 January 2019, 20:33:17
Well the main one is FirstClass for work.
I don't know if it'll run in wine or playonlinux, but there's only one way of finding out I'm afraid.
If you mean the educational program, they have native Mac, Linux, Ios and Android clients.

As for testing, you can run Virtualbox, install Linux, then install the client into that.


If I had a choice I'd choose Windows in a VM over Wine--especially for cloud type things like Adobe suite or Autodesk. Proton is a great start, but Wine ain't what the people want.
I start with Wine, then work my way down through the options with a VM being the last choice, simply because it's a more native and less intrusive approach.

Proton/Lutris and PlayonLinux are all using Wine as a base, as is Crossover.

If I had a decent GPU/MOBO laying around QEMU would be my first choice. Anything to avoid using vanilla Wine.

Sure winetricks is fantastic for one game or program--more than one and my wine bottles (prefixes) become a tangled spaghetti mess.

protontricks (w/Steam) > winetricks (w/PoL).. I know the tangles are still there but they're easier to manage lol
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Thu, 17 January 2019, 21:41:32
10 years ago you would be almost completely right.
5 years ago, mostly right.
Today, that's almost completely wrong.

Quite a lot of top tier games are now running on it (Far Cry 5, BF5, Fortnite, Falllout76...) and I have Photoshop and Illustrator running just fine on Playonlinux. Some older games even run better in Linux than in Windows. Only time I need Windows is for CAD, but even that has some workarounds.

I'm not saying it's always easy, but it can be done and it's getting faster, easier and more competent all the time.

It's a bit unfortunate, in engineering (at least in my disciplines), there's actually quite a bit of software that's both Windows and Linux, but there's enough that's one or the other to be a bit of a pain trying to just use one. It ends up being easier to run Windows as base and Linux as VM/remote client, though that's not how I'd like it ideally.

Can I ask, do you know of any reliable remote desktop client for Linux to access Windows RDP server? I know MS makes a RDP for Mac but I haven't been able to find one for Linux that works for these Windows servers (which I don't have any control or say over).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 17 January 2019, 22:54:00
Sure winetricks is fantastic for one game or program--more than one and my wine bottles (prefixes) become a tangled spaghetti mess.
I try to limit how much I need any of them for that very reason.
On the other hand, at least it's easy to backup, move and restore.


It's a bit unfortunate, in engineering (at least in my disciplines), there's actually quite a bit of software that's both Windows and Linux, but there's enough that's one or the other to be a bit of a pain trying to just use one. It ends up being easier to run Windows as base and Linux as VM/remote client, though that's not how I'd like it ideally.

Can I ask, do you know of any reliable remote desktop client for Linux to access Windows RDP server? I know MS makes a RDP for Mac but I haven't been able to find one for Linux that works for these Windows servers (which I don't have any control or say over).
Engineering, at least for cad/cam has been a mess for a long time from a software and hardware standpoint. Too many old machines/people/software trying to work with newer standards.

I switched everything I had over to Team Viewer a while back, it's the most reliable thing I've seen. Well, except when they up and changed all the remote access numbers breaking every connection. Gives you an idea of how low of a bar there is. Remote access, cloud sharing, file syncing and backup... I don't understand how it can all be so damn bad, and when you do finally find one that works well that's about the time they will shut it down (Crash Plan!). There are some good ones for all of this that exist, but cost a small fortune, and frankly, even they often have a pretty low bar for reliability.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: quadcube on Mon, 07 October 2019, 10:09:43
using win10 because support for 7 is ending next year
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: mizzoperator on Mon, 07 October 2019, 13:05:24
I use Windows 10 primarily for three reasons:
1) I'm absurdly lazy and don't want to have to fiddle with a command-line constantly just to install things.
2) It runs all of the applications I could ever need and/or want; usually without a fuss, too.
3) It's supported by basically everything ever, so I need not worry all that much.

I have no use for any Linux distros outside of using them on incredibly low-power machines, like old laptops.
Please don't take this as a jab towards anybody personally, but people who use Linux solely to feel superior to people who use Windows are not good people.
Thankfully, people who are like that are restricted to youtube comment sections and /g/.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Tue, 08 October 2019, 05:38:45
I have to use windows 10 because most video games are supported
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Surefoot on Tue, 08 October 2019, 08:08:09
As far as Linux native games, I wouldn't hold your breath, however if rumors are to be believed it may not matter. In the meantime, Lutris is doing quite well.
Using Ubuntu on my main default boot disk here. Steam means i have most of my AAA games library available directly. Yeah there are still windows exclusives but i can do without them as the linux offer has been plenty enough for some time now.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: romevi on Tue, 08 October 2019, 08:17:18
It's installed in my work computer.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: mizzoperator on Tue, 08 October 2019, 08:22:14
I have to use windows 10 because most video games are supported

I hope that one day, somebody ports Lose/Lose over to Windows.
That would be an absolutely radical way to destroy a Windows install.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: gingerjack on Thu, 10 October 2019, 22:52:25
Personally, I prefer Win7 but as support is ending, I had to switch to Win10. Like, I had no choice!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Sat, 12 October 2019, 18:31:08
I have a dilemma.

Windows 10 wants to update but fails/refuses to because my VMWare Workstation is old. However, I don't much feel like buying a new version just so I can boot my Linux partition from Windows.

Seems like I either must give up VMWare Workstation 9 or give up Windows 10.  :(
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: kwerdenker on Fri, 01 November 2019, 15:59:42
I used to dual-boot Linux/Windows but since W10 I just skip the Linux install. The Linux sublayer gives me everything I need with a reasonable speed and since most software these days is webbased anyways (hello Electron) it doesn't matter too much on which OS you run.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Thu, 14 November 2019, 11:59:24
I use windows 10 because its the only way to play my games
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: JP on Thu, 14 November 2019, 12:49:44
Windows 10 because at work because we are sun-setting Windows 7. No 21 gun salute, just an unceremonious whimper.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 14 November 2019, 14:26:00
I use windows 10 because its the only way to play ALL my games
Fixed that for you.

A lot now runs on Steam/Proton, just not everything.
Running Borderlands 2 and World of Warships through this was as easy to install as it was on Windows.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Sun, 17 November 2019, 12:25:55
I use windows 10 because its the only way to play ALL my games
Fixed that for you.

A lot now runs on Steam/Proton, just not everything.
Running Borderlands 2 and World of Warships through this was as easy to install as it was on Windows.

Occasionally i use Linux, i used CentOS for my project last time. It wasn't easy doe.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 17 November 2019, 18:56:10
Because that is what we use at work and what most people (ie muggles) in the real world (ie common US business) use for most tasks.

For a decade or so I have been dipping (first) my toes and (then) my legs into Linux - Ubuntu, then Mint, and currently finding a nice place with Mint/Cinnamon. When and if I leave the common general workforce and/or retire, I will ditch Micro$oft altogether for FOSS. I am more comfortable now with LibreOffice than Office, and Gimp than Photoshop Elements, since I am a low-power user in general anyway. Audacity has been my go-to music editor for nearly 2 decades, and Google Docs and Dropbox work great for things to share. I am still not settled on a good video editor.

And, fortunately, I am not a gamer.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 17 November 2019, 19:25:16

And, fortunately, I am not a gamer.

Fohat should game,  gotta stave off that dementia somehow..

Recommend RTX 2070 Super

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Fri, 22 November 2019, 07:40:39

"Recommend RTX 2070 Super"
Broke Sintpinty obviously cannot afford it
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 22 November 2019, 10:46:56

"Recommend RTX 2070 Super"
Broke Sintpinty obviously cannot afford it

5700xt, the solution to everything.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Prelim on Fri, 22 November 2019, 10:58:49
used Win7 64bit until last week, is way better than Win10. 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Bruek on Fri, 22 November 2019, 18:56:32
Just because I was forced to. I would absolutely love to still be using win7
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 22 November 2019, 20:41:35
I held onto both 98 and XP for a long time after the new versions came out, and still haven't decided whether Windows peaked with XP or 7.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Fri, 22 November 2019, 22:13:44
I held onto both 98 and XP for a long time after the new versions came out, and still haven't decided whether Windows peaked with XP or 7.

IMO XP was awesome for its time, but 7 seems to be the one people would use into the future, if given the choice.

I tethered my phone the other day to browse on my Win 10 desktop (didn't have wifi on it yet), and Windows downloaded an 8.5 GB "update" in the background. rip data plan. Oh, then the update failed because it wants me to delete VMware Workstation 9.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 23 November 2019, 03:15:52
7 was peak, though one could argue 8.1 was better from technical standpoint.

XP was good, but one of the reasons it was so "good" was because it stuck around longer than it should have giving MS time/forcing them to fix the problems. It had 3(!) service packs whereas most got one maybe two, the OS also grew 3x larger than it was on release. Then we got Vista which was bad and really only got good shortly before Win7 came out (and still demanded a VERY expensive high end system). So was it really good, or just victim of circumstance and rose tinted glasses? I'm not saying XP was bad, just not as good as 7 and was a victim of circumstances. On the other hand, Win7 was good pretty much right from the start. 7 could actually last longer than XP were it not for MS being so scared of it that they know they have to forcibly kill it to be rid of it.


Windows 8.1 though? Yes.
Okay, look, I get it, the interface stiiiiiiiinks, but the underpinnings, which were the underpinnings of Win10 and based on 7 are damned good and it was made before telemetry and other games MS is playing. I would say use Win8 with a different U.I. and it's perfect but 8 is dead.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Sat, 23 November 2019, 04:55:46
I use 8.1 just fine. Not planning to upgrade to 10 until 8.1 updates are EOL'd. Have avoided various retrofitted W10 updates I've researched by only installing manually after checking online for any relevant critical discussions (though some probably sneak in via later roll-up patches, I nevertheless check for unnecessary scheduled tasks and such added).

There's nothing wrong with the UI if one simply uses StartIsBack which restores a native start menu and allows disabling seeing the alternate modern app UI (unless you deliberately launch such an app of course). I also have retained a local rather than MS account since install (which they tried to swap out on users who logged into the Windows Store and/or at install time if you were connected to the net).

They've increasingly found ways to be sneaky with Windows over time no doubt but I'm just glad to not have to deal with the gamut of 10 concerns ranging from privacy issues to periodic, major OS system updates that have caused commonly reported hardware/software-affecting bugs or intentional, regressive feature changes. 8.1 OTOH has settled to just security updates while still being compatible with current third-party software and hardware I use (apart from native HDR support which is a minor complaint), kind of a sweet spot for me.

Edit: I should add on the last point that current gen Intel/AMD CPUs are only compatible with W10 (officially anyway), however I use a prior gen from a few years ago so for my uses it's fine for the time being.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 23 November 2019, 08:43:12
Mostly off-topic, I have a collection of MicroSoft OS packages going back to about DOS 3 (not a complete collection, but probably about a third of them) that realistically I will probably never find a use for, although I keep wondering. These are legit discs with proper product keys, etc.

My rudimentary understanding is that from about XP on the OS had to be "activated" by MS and so I couldn't just install one on an old computer and have it work (at least not without some sort of gray hack).

What is the last release that did not have to be activated? And I think I have Office 97, 2000, 2003, and 2010. Is it the same story with them?

Last, would a crude old OS work if I fed it to a modern motherboard?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: suicidal_orange on Sat, 23 November 2019, 09:53:29
Old OSes wont work properly/at all on new hardware as you wont have drivers.

Off the top of my head problems include XP RAM cap at 3.25(?)gb, there was a change to 16 then 32bit LBA addressing to access bigger hard drives, SSD wear management stuff, Win98 didn't like hyperthreading and probably can't use multiple cores either...  To play with an old OS you need old hardware :(
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 23 November 2019, 15:24:21

Suicidal_orange Is correct and there is actually a whole host of other issues that only get worse and worse as you go back.

Then there is the security aspect.
Hackers know these systems will not be patched by MS, making them prime targets. And once again the further you go back, the worse it gets. Find a modern malware protection for Win2k or Win98. Heck, find a modern browser. Chrome no longer even supports XP.



I use 8.1 just fine. Not planning to upgrade to 10 until 8.1 updates are EOL'd.
It's already being EOL'd by companies, AMD no longer offers new Radeon drivers for Win8. You can get Win7 or Win10, but not Win8 and no, you cannot use the 7 or 10 drivers, I tried. There are however driver tools that can locate newer ones that still work, but the ones from AMD will not.  This is because the Windows 8 user count is actually less than Linux users.

And why wait for EOL? You are fighting a losing battle.
You can get a free upgrade now and if you stick with Windows you will be forced onto 10 sooner or later whether you like it or not, the only difference is when and if you will have to pay for it. I recommend doing it now and set it up while disconnected from the net (so it creates an offline account), then use a tool to extract the product code. To do this you need to make a full backup, then use the Microsoft media creation tool to perform the update then as it boots up and asks for login info, disconnect from the net (you can also just keep saying no at the prompts eventually it will relent and offer an offline account). Then download a tool like Findkey or Productool to get the product code so you can re-install later.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 23 November 2019, 16:13:19

And once again the further you go back, the worse it gets.


I am generally keeping the old software against the possibility that I one day get some compatible old hardware and want to set it up entirely off-grid.

Does Windows 98 run with a product key without being activated? How about XP? As I recall, DOS just runs.

What is the last Office version that does not require activation?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 24 November 2019, 03:44:29
Anything xp or later needs it, so you need pre Winxp and pre Office Xp (also called 2003).
95-2k needs a key but no activation.

Getting around activation is pretty easy though.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Sun, 24 November 2019, 05:19:04
It's already being EOL'd by companies, AMD no longer offers new Radeon drivers for Win8.

Certainly unfortunate for AMD users wanting current gen GPUs. The Nvidia RTX (EVGA at least) still supports 8.1 from what I've seen from users on 8.1 using them (sans raytracing support due to the lack of DirectX 12). As I previously mentioned current gen CPUs aren't officially compatible on anything except W10 however, which is obviously something to consider.

And why wait for EOL? You are fighting a losing battle. The only difference is when and if you will have to pay for it.

Already outlined some of the reasons why I'm not using it, I have an entire text file and directory of W10 issues I keep track of. There's no battle to be had. Meanwhile on a weekly to monthly basis I come across new ways W10 has affected users negatively, from both devs and regular users. I was on the same forums and discussion groups for the period throughout 8.1's existence until now and there was nothing on the same level or volume of issues as W10. The worst I saw about 8.1 was the dislike about the alternate modern UI and other annoyances that could be properly disabled (which I was aware of when deciding to use it).

I'm just more comfortable with something stable and hassle-free. I'm sure some haven't experienced issues with their W10 or don't mind about other problematic aspects but I'm fine with my setup and wanted to mention that I feel 8.1 is viable, with the mentioned caveats.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 24 November 2019, 08:57:19
Anything xp or later needs it, so you need pre Winxp and pre Office Xp (also called 2003).
95-2k needs a key but no activation.

Getting around activation is pretty easy though.

Gotta stock up on OLD-Pirate images.  all the NEW ones come with miners and other virus problems.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: rjohn on Sun, 24 November 2019, 09:31:14
using a win10 custom lite version for gaming its 1.26gb ( extreme10-mpb-windows10-rs5 )
you can make more light your normal w10 installation using the utility below
https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 24 November 2019, 15:33:07
Already outlined some of the reasons why I'm not using it, I have an entire text file and directory of W10 issues I keep track of. There's no battle to be had. Meanwhile on a weekly to monthly basis I come across new ways W10 has affected users negatively, from both devs and regular users.

What makes you think that's going to change in the future?
Win8 will go EOL and then what? You finally switch? Now you are stuck trying to figure out how to deal with a new OS and by then all the documentation on Win10 will be a jumbled mess (which it already is) and you're several years behind the curve. What others think of as common knowledge you're scratching your head trying to figure out.

I get why you do it. It doesn't work, but I get it.


By the way, telemetry was installed through security patches and in rollups. You won't see any new services because it piggybacks existing systems such as the driver update system making it very difficult to see, much less block without blocking systems you want. Not only is it hidden, but it is on a system not intended to be secure so it installs with the defaults and you have zero control over it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 24 November 2019, 17:12:41
And the ISP always knows what you're doing as well.

If you dare get on Tor,  now they put you on the Naughty list, where even more resources are put into tracking you.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Sun, 24 November 2019, 18:45:53
What makes you think that's going to change in the future? Win8 will go EOL and then what? You finally switch? Now you are stuck trying to figure out how to deal with a new OS and you're several years behind the curve. What others think of as common knowledge you're scratching your head trying to figure out.

Likely little will change with W10 continuing to have frequent quality control issues and its other changes I take issue with, though I don't see the usefulness of switching before being necessary while having a stable, hassle-free OS. It also seems a stretch to imply W10 is so fundamentally different from an upgrade PoV from 8.1 that I would be stuck without a clue if I chose to upgrade.

I bought and installed W8.1 Pro only after doing research of various gotchas and tweaks required for the experience I wanted as opposed to blindly installing it as some who had complaints of widely and lesser known issues did at the time. That was far more of a skip both in years and the OS changes. For the software I used virtually nothing changed with that jump and hardware-wise the existing devices I used worked fine.

With W10 I'm already keeping a record of a variety of version-specific and broader OS issues that are reported by users and in the news (partly out of amusement, partly for reference), which is more than can be said of many and particularly more of a problem for W7 users upgrading. Of course if I did happen to run into any unexpected issues following an upgrade in years to come I'd investigate it, as I'd expect most reasonable users would.

By the way, telemetry was installed through security patches and in rollups. You won't see any new services because it piggybacks existing systems such as the driver update system making it very difficult to see. Not only is it hidden, but it is on a system not intended to be secure so it installs with the defaults and you have zero control over it.

Updates including backported telemetry now seem to be bundled in security roll-up patches, yes. Some of their patch notes for the security roll-ups have listed previous standalone telemetry updates however I'd be interested in more details regarding the entirely hidden nature of ones you're referring to piggybacking on driver updates. As so far none of the known telemetry-related tasks and processes I've seen are active on my system but I'd certainly be interested to know more of others.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 25 November 2019, 05:34:09
With W10 I'm already keeping a record of a variety of version-specific and broader OS issues that are reported by users and in the news (partly out of amusement, partly for reference), which is more than can be said of many and particularly more of a problem for W7 users upgrading. Of course if I did happen to run into any unexpected issues following an upgrade in years to come I'd investigate it, as I'd expect most reasonable users would.

I'm not here to defend Win10 and I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why.

Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.
The problems are always changing as is the solutions, last version problem notes are almost always useless on the latest and all it's doing is giving you more and more reasons to never switch to it. Your list is your reason to never switch. You're not waiting for EOL (keep telling yourself that), you're simply waiting until you are forced to do it, and when it happens it will be unexpected, and it will suck. Odds are you won't experience any of the issues you have written down but if you do it will be something just coming down the pipe and not on your list. And yes, I realize that's not confidence inspiring but it's better than it happening in the middle of a forced upgrade because of a hardware failure. Now you're dealing with a new hardware, a new problem and a new OS at the same time.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 25 November 2019, 08:28:58

I'm not here to defend Win10 and I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why.

Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.
The problems are always changing as is the solutions, last version problem notes are almost always useless on the latest and all it's doing is giving you more and more reasons to never switch to it. Your list is your reason to never switch. You're not waiting for EOL (keep telling yourself that), you're simply waiting until you are forced to do it, and when it happens it will be unexpected, and it will suck. Odds are you won't experience any of the issues you have written down but if you do it will be something just coming down the pipe and not on your list. And yes, I realize that's not confidence inspiring but it's better than it happening in the middle of a forced upgrade because of a hardware failure. Now you're dealing with a new hardware, a new problem and a new OS at the same time.

Wat does LLnn recommend for Totes-Incognito setup ??
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Mon, 25 November 2019, 12:28:13
I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why. Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.

*snip*

I mean, I can see how you might come away with that impression but the argument seems to boil down to 'better jump in now than later' but admittedly without a compelling reason other than seemingly exaggerating the difficulty of upgrading 8.1 to an OS that's fundamentally based upon it anyway (and to someone who spent far more time than necessary researching prior to the last OS jump, as mentioned), should I be forced to following some hypothetical, irrecoverable hardware failure and where W10 is apparently the only OS possible to use for the rebuild (must have been a pretty grave system failure :) ).

I understand some issues do get fixed or walked back in W10, however while some are bugs others are intentional feature/policy regressions I'm not a fan of and in addition to the continuing quality control issues it's something either one accepts using W10 (as you pointed out) and tries to mitigate/account for or decides to simply use a different OS.

It's not hard to see why then I'd remain on 8.1 while it's suitable, no? It's been stable for me for years, has currently no unwanted aspects and has had a far better track record of update quality than W10 by most accounts. Shrug.

It's also only if I don't find an alternative arrangement that's more suitable to W10 where it may become the only feasible upgrade path but I'm not sure yet. Been weighing a dual system/OS for separately offline online use, which I've done before. There's no rush to seeing how things are closer to EOL, which is also what I did last I upgraded my main Windows system.

As for documenting details about W10 it allows one to see the directions the OS has taken over time. It's categorized and not limited just to bugs. Though in regards to bugs if we look at a particularly egregious example from the end of last year, the Documents wiping bug, I would have been affected had I used the OS since the specific criteria that triggered it I happen to meet (using a directory named 'Documents' in the root user directory that isn't assigned as the OS designated Documents location since I use that as a honeypot).

Several users within different communities I'm part of have had their system or data borked from updates, with one I know who lost some of their work due to it, including something they were making for that community. I have daily backups so such scenarios wouldn't have been as severe a setback for me as they have been for others but it's hardly minor or even that uncommon to see updates impacting users' trust like that.

---

Btw would still be interested in the entirely hidden telemetry backports if you have more details. The German government commissioned an investigation into W10's telemetry (since they needed to understand it by law) and through a deep dive identified which aspects of the OS handle it, which were the same things found in backported telemetry for previous Windows versions but perhaps there's something else that's worth looking into.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 25 November 2019, 19:00:47
Wat does LLnn recommend for Totes-Incognito setup ??
Total incognito?
How far do you want to go down that rabbit hole?

Basic setup...
Ubuntu thumb stick in read only mode, no internal drive (if you need space use a second thumb stick), with dedicated USB wireless card (disposable or changeable mac address) connected through an open access point. Do not install any plugins, use it stock and park across the street to avoid cameras, better yet, a Pringles cantenna and sit down the road. Oh, and make sure IPV6 is disabled and you use something other than Intel, and preferably a disposable system you paid cash for (while on vacation). Older is also better. Try to not re-use the same stick or wifi adapter too often, and no patterns in terms of places you use for a connection. Many restaurants have free wifi. Hospitals and hotels used to be good but those are being locked down, you could easily social engineer these but that exposes you in other ways. Oh, and when doing this, leave your phone at home.

There's probably more I'm forgetting but this should be a good start.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 25 November 2019, 19:43:50
I mean, I can see how you might come away with that impression but the argument seems to boil down to 'better jump in now than later' but admittedly without a compelling reason other than seemingly exaggerating the difficulty of upgrading 8.1 to an OS that's fundamentally based upon it anyway (and to someone who spent far more time than necessary researching prior to the last OS jump, as mentioned), should I be forced to following some hypothetical, irrecoverable hardware failure and where W10 is apparently the only OS possible to use for the rebuild (must have been a pretty grave system failure :) ).

Let me preface this by saying very little of this will help convince you to switch, in fact most these responses will make you want to stay with Win8.

I did not exaggerate the problem you read it as me exaggerating it, it's a matter of ease. You know your system, you know it works, now is the best time to do an OS upgrade. Not when you finally decide to do a hardware upgrade or you are forced to and then run into problems along with an unknown system. It's much easier to do it with a known system than an unknown one. Computer troubleshooting 101, eliminate variables.

As for hardware failure, upgrades happen, power spikes happen, motherboards fail. You exactly can't go buy a brand new 4th gen Intel motherboard down the street.
Can you get Win8 onto newer hardware, yes, but it's messy and it lacks all the proper drivers, the few that did get released have actually started to be suppressed. There used to be a Gigabit(?) tool to make Win7 and 8 bootable on newer hardware, that has been taken down.

I think this is something people do not understand, MS and big companies (not just Intel and AMD), they want 7 and 8 dead just as much as MS does. It means fewer drivers to support and that means less Q&A. It's far cheaper to support one OS than it is to support 3 or 4. They are actively working against you. Are there workarounds for all of it? Mostly, but that will become less and less as time goes on. I doubt you will see support for PCIE 4.0 in Win8 in any form, same with Gen 4 USB, will it work in 3.0 mode, maybe, but it depends on how aggressive the companies become about it. Nvidia and AMD could completely cripple backwards GPU support and Intel could cripple Thunderbolt support and as USB and Thunderbolt merge, that could take down that system as well.

Best reason to do it now is like I said, you know your system works and it's stable. It's not really your choice long term companies are already cutting 7 and 8 support. I guess what I'm really saying is get with it, or leave Windows because what you want to do is unsustainable.

More?
Better underpinnings, it has better networking, better security, gets priority over other OS for security patches, it gets priority on drivers, it has new optimizations for general computing, hardware and gaming. Mostly though, it's not being deprecated out of existence. Win8 is DEAD, stick a fork in it, it's done. 7 is actually more alive than 8 is despite being older, Linux users outnumber Win8 users, it's that dead. I won't be surprised if AV companies start abandoning it due to lack of users, there's so little money left in it. One has already left 7.

I'm no fan of Win10, I can give you a TON of reasons not to switch to it, but if you are staying with Windows you will eventually have to switch.


As for documenting details about W10 it allows one to see the directions the OS has taken over time. It's categorized and not limited just to bugs. Though in regards to bugs if we look at a particularly egregious example from the end of last year, the Documents wiping bug, I would have been affected had I used the OS since the specific criteria that triggered it I happen to meet (using a directory named 'Documents' in the root user directory that isn't assigned as the OS designated Documents location since I use that as a honeypot).

You are collecting a list of problems, current or not, when the time comes your first excuse will be "it's fine for now why ditch Win8", then as time goes on you will resort more and more to your list and the fact that "it works fine as it is".  You may have started with the right intentions, but we are now 4 years into Windows 10 it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.

I know about that "bug", it's a feature, at least it is now, it may not have been on purpose but how many signed up for One Drive as a result.
Honestly, in some ways, it was a good thing. Getting people to make backups is nearly impossible until they experience data loss, as word spread I had quite a few people actually ask me about it rather than me trying to hit them over the head with the fact that they needed it.



Several users within different communities I'm part of have had their system or data borked from updates, with one I know who lost some of their work due to it, including something they were making for that community. I have daily backups so such scenarios wouldn't have been as severe a setback for me as they have been for others but it's hardly minor or even that uncommon to see updates impacting users' trust like that.
Those communities are just reinforcing your reasons, I've also seen and lost data as well as an expensive ssd to it (thanks MS!).
I won't say it can't happen, it does.

This is the new normal.
Is it right? Nope, but it is the new norm. Again, we are 4 years in, if you haven't switched willingly by now, you probably will only do it when forced. There is no "next Windows", so it's not like XP users waiting for 7 or 8 users waiting for 10. This is it.


Btw would still be interested in the entirely hidden telemetry backports if you have more details. The German government commissioned an investigation into W10's telemetry (since they needed to understand it by law) and through a deep dive identified which aspects of the OS handle it, which were the same things found in backported telemetry for previous Windows versions but perhaps there's something else that's worth looking into.
Telemetry is not a new service, it's built into existing systems.
A good example is drivers, if you block enough of telemetry, Windows cannot even look for drivers when you attach a new device. So if you're looking for a new entry in services or task manager it's not there. This is exactly what happened to me when I did this on Win10. It's known that many security updates had it included without notifying users that it carried that payload. So while some said they were for telemetry, some were actual security updates but included that along with it. I have a list of them somewhere, some are easy to figure out, others less so, same with their deviousness.

Also, the backported telemetry lacks even the rudimentary controls that Win10 has. You have zero control over it, though to be fair the controls for privacy in Win10 are mostly there to make you feel like you have control (door close buttons on elevators are the same).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Tue, 26 November 2019, 02:58:35
I did not exaggerate the problem you read it as me exaggerating it, it's a matter of ease. You know your system, you know it works, now is the best time to do an OS upgrade.

As for hardware failure, upgrades happen, power spikes happen, motherboards fail. You exactly can't go buy a brand new 4th gen Intel motherboard down the street.

It's not really your choice long term companies are already cutting 7 and 8 support. I guess what I'm really saying is get with it, or leave Windows because what you want to do is unsustainable.

Firstly, I appreciate the thoughtful reply. The thing is, I'd agree that should the system hardware remain as-is it would be from that perspective one less variable if I were interested enough in what the OS offers and wasn't concerned with the other drawbacks discussed. Future HW support is probably the most relevant consideration to me tbh, if I actually had something needed that was incompatible, though I buy new hardware so rarely.

Although, even with such a failure, whether I'm on 8.1 or 10, I'd still be spending the time with research and buying new hardware for a rebuild so from that side of things it's much of a muchness (putting aside that it's possible to still buy identical or compatible, previous gen hardware from secondary markets for replacements).

The difference then mostly comes down to how difficult a 8.1 -> 10 OS transition is, which I haven't seen widespread reports of being an issue (upgrading over that is) but I'd likely do a fresh install, migrate data and look into carefully whether in some current upgrade scenario (same or different hardware) or future should I decide W10 is the only feasible choice should 8.1 become impractical to continue using as my online system (same or different hardware).

As for power spikes and dropouts it's the reason I bought a UPS. I'd seen a user I'm familiar with have their motherboard fried due to a spike years back which also affected other components and so I looked into how I'd protect against such a scenario (having it switch to the battery has been great in a few situations). Similarly I'd wanted backup solutions for mitigating potential issues down the line even further back and so looked into and implemented that as well.

Are there other scenarios that could potentially affect me? Sure although I try to account for them as much as I can (heck I move data between unknown Windows systems using either reformatted flash drives with a Mac on a fresh profile as a go-between or use read-only discs, how many would even bother). So I'd say I've been more careful in those cases than most people and documenting pitfalls over time does have its benefits :).


You are collecting a list of problems, current or not, when the time comes your first excuse will be "it's fine for now why ditch Win8". Then as time goes on you will resort more and more to your list and the fact that "it works fine as it is". You may have started with the right intentions, but we are now 4 years into Windows 10 it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.

Those communities are just reinforcing your reasons, I've also seen and lost data as well as an expensive ssd to it (thanks MS!).
I won't say it can't happen, it does. This is the new normal. Is it right? Nope, but it is the new norm.

If I actually had ongoing issues with my OS then naturally I'd be looking at more immediate alternatives rather than looking over some list and trying to convince myself in some cyclical, desperate scenario as you're describing, come on now. I mean, doesn't seem difficult to see how if something is stable and suitable for purpose and foreseeable drawbacks are mitigated one would prefer sticking to something that runs well as-is while they have the opportunity, than migrating to an OS with widely known drawbacks and for my uses very few advantages. Obviously you feel differently about the advantages it brings for your uses compared to the downsides otherwise we wouldn't be having all these verbose replies :p

It's also not entire communities such impressions are coming from, it's users like you and me in addition to devs who I've interacted with encountering both lesser and also non-trivial issues with the OS to a frequency/degree not experienced in the prior couple Windows versions (along with a mix of users praising W10, ironically occasionally for things introduced in W8 which some skipped). Perhaps the net outcome is more users looking into fallback solutions like backups and such but I've also seen how it has leads to various frustrations and trepidation.

With 8.1 at the beginning I posted strong critiques for some of its customizability regressions and things MS were sneaky about, most of which I was already aware and accounted for but nonetheless deserved criticism and user awareness, yet once that's taken into account it's been hassle-free ever since. Also nothing of that has changed so it still requires user awareness. I'm not some dyed-in-the-wool fanboy but it nevertheless has been a decent OS. If I had W10 dialed in suitably and feedback improved broadly about the state of its update QC then it'd be a no-brainer switch for the most part. I'm not some lunatic :D

Telemetry is not a new service, it's built into existing systems. A good example is drivers, if you block enough of telemetry, Windows cannot even look for drivers when you attach a new device. So if you're looking for a new entry in services or task manager it's not there.

This is exactly what happened to me when I did this on Win10. It's known that many security updates had it included without notifying users that it carried that payload. So while some said they were for telemetry, some were actual security updates but included that along with it. I have a list of them somewhere, some are easy to figure out, others less so, same with their deviousness.

Also, the backported telemetry lacks even the rudimentary controls that Win10 has. You have zero control over it, though to be fair the controls for privacy in Win10 are mostly there to make you feel like you have control (door close buttons on elevators are the same).

On W8.1 I haven't experienced issues installing drivers or updates with the known aspects of backported W10 telemetry disabled. Have read however that disabling the same aspects in W10 itself causes automatic Windows updates to stop (similarly for Enterprise/Education editions when telemetry is set to Security/'0' level) since it's no longer checking, which from accounts seems to be new behavior W10 brought. Outside of the research by others into W10's and its backported telemetry though I haven't been able to find information regarding entirely hidden backported telemetry apart from instances where Microsoft re-enables the existing things via undisclosed updates (which has also occurred on W10).

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 27 November 2019, 20:08:42
If I actually had ongoing issues with my OS then naturally I'd be looking at more immediate alternatives rather than looking over some list and trying to convince myself in some cyclical, desperate scenario as you're describing, come on now. I mean, doesn't seem difficult to see how if something is stable and suitable for purpose and foreseeable drawbacks are mitigated one would prefer sticking to something that runs well as-is while they have the opportunity, than migrating to an OS with widely known drawbacks and for my uses very few advantages. Obviously you feel differently about the advantages it brings for your uses compared to the downsides otherwise we wouldn't be having all these verbose replies :p

It's also not entire communities such impressions are coming from, it's users like you and me in addition to devs who I've interacted with encountering both lesser and also non-trivial issues with the OS to a frequency/degree not experienced in the prior couple Windows versions (along with a mix of users praising W10, ironically occasionally for things introduced in W8 which some skipped). Perhaps the net outcome is more users looking into fallback solutions like backups and such but I've also seen how it has leads to various frustrations and trepidation.
What alternatives? You either leave Windows or go to Win10. That's pretty much it.

I have said repeatedly, I left Windows entirely so Win10 doesn't bring me any advantage (economically it's a disadvantage). Early on, yes the idea was to not use it but we are now 4 years in, Win10, is a "mature" Os. If you think companies and users rallying together are going to push MS to fix what's wrong, you are dead wrong, we tried, it didn't work.

*beating a dead horse here but maybe you will finally get it*
Win8 is soon to be no longer a realistic OS to use, it's all but dead to companies who support it and once Win7 goes, they will more than likely decide to stop supporting anything but Win10. Why? They no longer need Win7 and the only reason many develop anything for 8 at all anymore is because it's easy to support 7 and 8 together (8 and 8.1 are dead operating systems). Won't they be losing out on potential customers? Of course, but the loss of support staff needed will offset most of that, especially when many of those users will upgrade soon. Yes, some will still offer support, but they will shrink, a few will still but they will be specialized.

I'm guessing you haven't been though many OS phaseouts, this is how it happens.
What do you think will happen if MS and Google agree to stop supporting Chrome and Office on Win7 or Win8? Can't happen? Oh it very much can. MS would probably even pay them to do it.
But they will loose...  No, they won't. If support flounders many WILL go upgrade and those who don't are not customers making them much anyhow. Those are known as "killer apps" and without them the OS will falter. Remember, you don't own the software, especially something used as a service, which Chrome and 365 is. They dictate the terms. Still think it can't? Ask Intel and AMD for drivers.

Of course you could keep using it without support, but are you a holdout of fanboy at that point? And what do you do as more and more software stops supporting it?  I suspect you think you have years left because 8 has years to EOL, just because the OS has years doesn't mean the supporting software does. You're on a train running out of track, pretty much everyone has already gotten off except you.


*as for the verbose replies, advising people on OS choice is kind of habit due to my job.


I'm not some dyed-in-the-wool fanboy but it nevertheless has been a decent OS. If I had W10 dialed in suitably and feedback improved broadly about the state of its update QC then it'd be a no-brainer switch for the most part.
Are you sure about this?
As a tech, even I start to wonder when I see Win7 or 8 at this point. I'm not alone in this.


On W8.1 I haven't experienced issues installing drivers or updates with the known aspects of backported W10 telemetry disabled.
Disabled or uninstalled?
I'm not aware of (nor have I looked) for a way to disable telemetry in Win8 once installed, there's little point to it since most people just try and make sure it's not installed in the first place. Not to mention so few actually using Win8, much less With Win8 and updates enabled at this point and even fewer taking the time to look into it. Again, Win8 is dead.

Not installing or uninstalling telemetry on Win10 isn't an option. It is baked into the os (in fact the very base of it), it wasn't added later in an update that you can rollback.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Coreda on Thu, 28 November 2019, 03:46:23
What alternatives? You either leave Windows or go to Win10. That's pretty much it.

I have said repeatedly, I left Windows entirely so Win10 doesn't bring me any advantage (economically it's a disadvantage). Early on, yes the idea was to not use it but we are now 4 years in, Win10, is a "mature" Os. If you think companies and users rallying together are going to push MS to fix what's wrong, you are dead wrong, we tried, it didn't work.

Yes, the alternatives for an online system are other OSes or W10, which I mentioned in a prior post and also that I've done before.

I've seen posts by W10 users in this topic both praising it to varying degrees and also being negative toward it (even non-W10 users previously in the topic), along with sub-discussions of using Linux—heck, even a user still on W7, all of which received far terser response chains—if any—to, so not quite sure how my particular comments were engaged with like this but that's as it is.

I do recognize and have considered these potential scenarios being brought up both on the hardware and software side of things and I've also been through OS phaseouts both on Windows and Mac so it's not as though I haven't had experience with OS deprecation in software releases (though as a side note the particular programs listed don't affect me but I recognize the potential for deprecation in general). The post you quoted from even begins with the statement that if I had ongoing issues with the OS I'd look seriously at something sooner yet the response returns to things already discussed and addressed, including various new hardware drivers being W10 compatible only which I touched on even in the very first post...

Are you sure about this? As a tech, even I start to wonder when I see Win7 or 8 at this point. I'm not alone in this.

I mean, does posting that I've critiqued an OS for its drawbacks but have had no real problems with it since install and is viable for my needs for the time being make one a fanboy? Would mentioning W10 is problematic in a 'ton' of ways—comparing it to 'malware' multiple times (even I've never gone that far)—while having experienced various issues with it until you stopped using it, yet criticize those who don't have the immediate need for it, make you a fanboy/girl or apologist? :p

*as for the verbose replies, advising people on OS choice is kind of habit due to my job.

I'd hazard a guess that some of what is driving your replies is dealing with others for whom their setup and the software they use is more currently affected or limited by the OS version they use and so you're coming at it from that perspective, perhaps having been frustrated with some other dialog you've experienced which I can be sympathetic with. Maybe we can leave this discussion until my arrangement becomes less viable and go from there :)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 28 November 2019, 04:58:12
I'd hazard a guess that some of what is driving your replies is dealing with others for whom their setup and the software they use is more currently affected or limited by the OS version they use and so you're coming at it from that perspective, perhaps having been frustrated with some other dialog you've experienced which I can be sympathetic with. Maybe we can leave this discussion until my arrangement becomes less viable and go from there :)
Very possible, my job is to try and future proof an "investment".
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 20 December 2019, 16:09:37
I literally just upgraded to 10 from 7 last night and am not happy at all. It's drastically slower on boot, starting up any app, and loading folders in Windows takes ages.

Absolutely awful, I hate it and the new Start menu design is total ****. Performance is complete garbage next to 7. And on top of all that it disassociated like 70% of my icons across all non-main folders randomly with their file paths, no rhyme or reason just whatever random files it felt like changing to blank tiles.

It's constantly running in the bg doing ****ING NOTHING! WHAT ARE YOU DOING WINDOWS? STOP!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:21:42
I said god damn, there is so much garbage running in the background that is completely pointless. Storage Sense, Notifications, Focus Assist, Shared Experience

I don't want ANY OF THIS GARBAGE. It's not useful, it just more trash clogging the pipeline for no reason. I hate it  >:D
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:39:38
I've been seeing more and more reports of Win10 slowing.
When released it was very close to Win7 in performance, but now people are saying it's starting to run a bit slow on 8gig systems. Basically 16gig nvme is now running closer to how it used to with 8gig/ssd.

This is to be expected as it ages and grows, the problem here is that there's nothing to indicate it and you have no say in it. It used to be you saw speed degradation when you upgraded the OS or at the very least you installed a service pack, now it just slowly degrades over time. It used to be junk building up but now Windows has ways to combat this by reloading itself, unfortunately this also means Win10 is degrading at a similar rate despite this. Regardless, it's not a bug, it's a feature, this will drive new pc sales. You didn't really think Wintel was going to let you stick to your current WIn10/computer and never need to upgrade did you? The more insideous part is that MS can now basically micromanage the market at will. Slow quarter? Push a heavy update that runs bad on older systems. None of this even touches on the garbage thrown in, but yeah, it's a problem.


On the other hand, Mac Mojave and Catalina seem to be a return to form on Mac, fixing a lot of the problems I've seen on the past few releases (though they too come with some extra crap I don't want and can't remove). While I can't say much about the speed (seems slightly better than Sierra), my laptop seems to like Mojave. I can't move to Catalina yet as it drops 32bit support and I still have an older app that won't run on it yet.

And Linux is Linux, it gets better and better the longer I use it.
Other than Nvidia, that's a dumpster fire.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:43:09
Game Mode? WHY IS THIS GARBAGE ON BY DEFAULT?!? and it keeps trying to make Edge my default browser, I've set it to FF 3x now.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 20 December 2019, 18:07:46
Game Mode? WHY IS THIS GARBAGE ON BY DEFAULT?!? and it keeps trying to make Edge my default browser, I've set it to FF 3x now.
Have tool change it in settings, not just the popup.

And make sure all updates are in before you start messing with things or it will be over-written.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: jacethesaltsculptor on Mon, 30 December 2019, 13:35:46
I use Windows 10 on my main workstation primarily because of Games, however I'm flirting more and more with Proton on Steam, which may be the final nail in the coffin for me.

My job requires that I support a couple hundred Windows machines, so I doubt I'll ever be completely out of the Windows world, and unless it ever becomes a minority OS, probably wouldn't want to be.

However every other machine I own is a Linux or Unix machine: I run 5 Ubuntu Computers for various host, Virtual Machines, and servers, and a Mac Pro 5,1 that I got for a deal and use nearly daily.

Ironically my workstation at Work is on Ubuntu, and I manage Windows through VMs there or via built in tools depending on what it is.

My dream is to someday be Linux/Unix entirely, but practicality for me demands otherwise, someday though.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 10 January 2020, 15:12:37
I use Windows 10 on my main workstation primarily because of Games, however I'm flirting more and more with Proton on Steam, which may be the final nail in the coffin for me.

My job requires that I support a couple hundred Windows machines, so I doubt I'll ever be completely out of the Windows world, and unless it ever becomes a minority OS, probably wouldn't want to be.

However every other machine I own is a Linux or Unix machine: I run 5 Ubuntu Computers for various host, Virtual Machines, and servers, and a Mac Pro 5,1 that I got for a deal and use nearly daily.

Ironically my workstation at Work is on Ubuntu, and I manage Windows through VMs there or via built in tools depending on what it is.

My dream is to someday be Linux/Unix entirely, but practicality for me demands otherwise, someday though.

So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I
I literally just upgraded to 10 from 7 last night and am not happy at all. It's drastically slower on boot, starting up any app, and loading folders in Windows takes ages.

Absolutely awful, I hate it and the new Start menu design is total ****. Performance is complete garbage next to 7. And on top of all that it disassociated like 70% of my icons across all non-main folders randomly with their file paths, no rhyme or reason just whatever random files it felt like changing to blank tiles.

It's constantly running in the bg doing ****ING NOTHING! WHAT ARE YOU DOING WINDOWS? STOP!

Did you do an upgrade install? Those never go well, or at least never had in my experience. Significantly slower in use than a wipe and fresh install of Windows 10. With fresh installs, Windows 7 is actually the slug of the most recent M$ Windows iterations in my experience. Much slower than 10 and 8 on the same hardware. This is surprising, considering that Windows 7 was so much better optimized than Vista. Various old desktop and laptop systems that I wouldn't think at all about installing Windows on are surprisingly snappy with 32 bit Windows 10, and yes, that usually means around 2gb of RAM. All I have noticed that has started to eat excessive amounts of memory over recent years is web browsers. 4gb is no longer sufficient for me with many tabs open in Firefox Quantum. Chrome has always been an unnecessarily all-consuming black hole of RAM though.

Another important/useful thing is that Both Windows 8 and 10 boot substantially faster than 7 when installed correctly in UEFI mode, especially when an SSD is involved. I have noticed that it is even faster than Windows XP to boot on the same hardware, faster than most, if not all, minimal Linux distros I have tried that has a window manager.

I have used Windows 10 daily, on the majority of the desktop and laptop computers that I own (I have significantly more computers than I even have mechanical keyboards. I have a problem) since it was still in beta. With fresh installs, I have had very few problems since then, mostly with updates breaking user accounts, and I think some very early Nvidia driver issues. The layout/organization is slightly worse than Windows 7, which was slightly worse than XP, but many of the added hotkeys/context menus (added in Windows 8, but we don't talk about that dumpster fire) are a fantastic addition.

There's no other reasonable operating system for gaming, M$ (of course) axed Directx on everything prior to it, and game support on just about everything else is horrendous (Linux seemed to be on the rise until Valve seemed to waffle on SteamOS). If not for this, I might use Linux more commonly than Windows.

For those who say they can't afford it, activating Windows 10 with a Windows 7 or 8 license key is still a thing. M$ has never removed the feature, even though they claim to have. I'll leave it at that though.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 10 January 2020, 20:02:24
Did you do an upgrade install? Those never go well, or at least never had in my experience. Significantly slower in use than a wipe and fresh install of Windows 10.
The Win10 upgrade is not the same as Win7 or 8 upgrades and it has changed since initial release.
At this point (I could be wrong, I'd have to check) it's pretty similar to a major update, it copies out your files, wipes what's left, re-installs the OS and then then puts your files back. Great when it gets it right as you get what amounts to a (mostly) fresh install. Unfortunately when this system fails, it's bad, like when it purged user files not stored in One Drive or somehow copies over infected files.

That said, I'm with you, fresh install every time. Better to know what you are working with.


With fresh installs, Windows 7 is actually the slug of the most recent M$ Windows iterations in my experience. Much slower than 10 and 8 on the same hardware.
I think quite a few would disagree with you, many are starting to think Win10 is getting a bit bloated and slowing down.


Another important/useful thing is that Both Windows 8 and 10 boot substantially faster than 7 when installed correctly in UEFI mode, especially when an SSD is involved. I have noticed that it is even faster than Windows XP to boot on the same hardware, faster than most, if not all, minimal Linux distros I have tried that has a window manager.
8 and 10 boot faster because they are not actually booting.
Both by default use fastboot, not not to be confused with bios fast boot. It's using a tweaked standby and not actually shutting
down.

If you want to see an actual cold boot you need either disable fastboot or hold shift the follow the prompts to shut down, this will allow you to actually shut down/restart without it cheating. It's not fair compare the modified standby on Win8/10 to a cold boot on Win7 or Linux install.


There's no other reasonable operating system for gaming, M$ (of course) axed Directx on everything prior to it, and game support on just about everything else is horrendous (Linux seemed to be on the rise until Valve seemed to waffle on SteamOS). If not for this, I might use Linux more commonly than Windows.
Valve dropped SteamOS because it's not needed, Proton and DXVK work fantastic.
Between Steam Proton and Lutris there is very little you can't play with the only real hangup being anti-cheat software. You can even get Fusion 360 (Cad) running this way.

It's impressive how far it's come in the last year or two.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: jacethesaltsculptor on Fri, 10 January 2020, 20:02:49
So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I wish I could fit it on the desk! It's in my other room, and I remote into it and do most of my work on it that way. It conveniently also lets me use the same keyboards as I do for my windows machine.

I'm rather happy about the new Mac Pro, but probably not going to buy one until they are far over the horizon, as that way I'd be able to afford them. I just want a PC like Mac with upgradeability, but Apple isn't so interested.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Fri, 10 January 2020, 22:58:35
So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I wish I could fit it on the desk! It's in my other room, and I remote into it and do most of my work on it that way. It conveniently also lets me use the same keyboards as I do for my windows machine.

I'm rather happy about the new Mac Pro, but probably not going to buy one until they are far over the horizon, as that way I'd be able to afford them. I just want a PC like Mac with upgradeability, but Apple isn't so interested.

They're almost big enough to use as the desk, with an extra shelf slapped on for the battlecruiser.

Unfortunately when this system fails, it's bad, like when it purged user files not stored in One Drive or somehow copies over infected files.

That said, I'm with you, fresh install every time. Better to know what you are working with.

... So, M$ fixed the horrendous upgrade install performance issues, yet made it possible for all of your files to be deleted. I would rather it run like trash instead.

I think quite a few would disagree with you, many are starting to think Win10 is getting a bit bloated and slowing down.

Many (all? hopefully?) would be right that Windows 10 is getting bloated and slowing down, just like what happens with every M$ operating system during its supported service life. It is still faster for me than even Windows 7 when I was first trying it in beta, and we both know that the vast majority of people that are running it are running M$' early botched, unsolicited upgrade installs from 7/8, because they don't know any better. It does an especially fantastic job on low-end hardware, hardware I wouldn't even bother to install Windows 7 on and would otherwise go with Lubuntu or something. I do, however disable all of the useless garbage like Cortana and One Drive though, and I hear Cortana has some major performance penalties (I have been too lazy to literally strip the fat out of the installer like I used to do with XP, and get it running like a dream on systems that have half of the minimum requirements).

8 and 10 boot faster because they are not actually booting.
Both by default use fastboot, not not to be confused with bios fast boot. It's using a tweaked standby and not actually shutting
down.

If you want to see an actual cold boot you need either disable fastboot or hold shift the follow the prompts to shut down, this will allow you to actually shut down/restart without it cheating. It's not fair compare the modified standby on Win8/10 to a cold boot on Win7 or Linux install.

Yeah, booting without the hibernation file makes no major difference for me, especially since I notice Windows 10's snappy boots even during restarts, which don't use fast boot/startup anyway. Installing the operating system in BIOS/Legacy mode turns it into molasses though, just like Windows 7. I have seen this across dozens of various computers up to at least 10 years old, and sometimes older (I did manage to even install Windows 10 on a completely unsupported, 2006-vintage Macbook Pro.) and storage devices that also run that same gamut.

Valve dropped SteamOS because it's not needed, Proton and DXVK work fantastic.
Between Steam Proton and Lutris there is very little you can't play with the only real hangup being anti-cheat software. You can even get Fusion 360 (Cad) running this way.

It's impressive how far it's come in the last year or two.

So Proton is just Valve playing with Wine? I hadn't heard of DXVK, that's all interesting and all, and I may look into it, but how do the frames most often compare to the same hardware running native Windows?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 11 January 2020, 03:27:32
Many (all? hopefully?) would be right that Windows 10 is getting bloated and slowing down, just like what happens with every M$ operating system during its supported service life. It is still faster for me than even Windows 7 when I was first trying it in beta, and we both know that the vast majority of people that are running it are running M$' early botched, unsolicited upgrade installs from 7/8, because they don't know any better.
Win10 doesn't suffer age related slowdowns like past systems because every major update (quarterly) it performs a reinstall. It's getting slower due to changes being made to it making it grow. Scary to think how bad it would run without those re-installs.

I'm not so sure Win10 was faster than 7 given fresh installs, but it only took a single bad driver or pretty much just installing Chrome to make 7 slow down enough for 10 to catch up.


Installing the operating system in BIOS/Legacy mode turns it into molasses though, just like Windows 7. I have seen this across dozens of various computers up to at least 10 years old,

There's the rub, Win7 didn't natively support GPT disks and efi, it was a hack to make it work.
10 was designed for EFI but only supports MBR/Bios grudgingly.

Not sure why you think an 06 Macbook (Core2duo) wouldn't run Win10.



So Proton is just Valve playing with Wine? I hadn't heard of DXVK, that's all interesting and all, and I may look into it, but how do the frames most often compare to the same hardware running native Windows?
It's a little slower, it's not perfect, but most stuff is playable, especially if you have a decent system to start with.
Other people are also playing with VM and GPU passthrough, this looks interesting, but meh. Seems like a lot of hassle, most of the time you install Steam, tell it to use Proton for Windows games and click install. Works just like on Windows.

Lutris is a bit more complex, but capable of even more than Steam/Proton.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:57:01
Win10 doesn't suffer age related slowdowns like past systems because every major update (quarterly) it performs a reinstall. It's getting slower due to changes being made to it making it grow. Scary to think how bad it would run without those re-installs.

I'm not so sure Win10 was faster than 7 given fresh installs, but it only took a single bad driver or pretty much just installing Chrome to make 7 slow down enough for 10 to catch up.

I don't know, my system sped up significantly after a recent fresh reinstall of Windows 10, although I do believe that the SSD I upgraded to was probably faster as well. Cheapy Mushkin to one of the nicer Samsungs. I do still wish M$ would abandon NTFS entirely, and at least clean up how the registry functions.

Windows 10 is definitely significantly faster in my experience than Windows 7, even after having booted completely. Windows 7 has seemed pretty sluggish since the first few major updates, and the only reason it ever seemed all that fast to begin with is it was infinitely better optimized than Vista. I think one thing that probably helped a lot was finally abandoning the dumpster fire that was Windows Aero. That garbage made Vista unusable on launch with every single computer we had, they didn't have nearly enough ram. Windows 7 improved it, but it still always run much better with it disabled, which would really be where your argument against 10's speed might shine. Google Chrome shouldn't even exist. It baffles the mind that they took any market share from Firefox at all, much less take over the market like it has. I say this in spite of the fact that I help maintain thousands of Chromebooks.

There's the rub, Win7 didn't natively support GPT disks and efi, it was a hack to make it work.
10 was designed for EFI but only supports MBR/Bios grudgingly.

Not sure why you think an 06 Macbook (Core2duo) wouldn't run Win10.

I'm aware, that's kind of the point.

There's no practical reason that a Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro couldn't run Windows 10. Apple, in their infinite wisdom, just refused to support it. I literally could not install it without removing the hard drive, putting it into another system, installing Windows 10, then putting the drive back into the Macbook Pro for final setup. Previous versions of Windows, in my experience, would usually flip out about the chipset changing and BSOD. Windows 10 seems a little more resilient in that regard. Once I had installed it, I couldn't even install the few remaining missing drivers without modifying Apple's driver package installer to install regardless of the operating system. Surprise, surprise. Everything worked perfectly in Windows 10, in spite of the roadblocks they put up for no reason. Just like their arbitrary refusal to allow the installation of newer versions of MacOS/OSX on older hardware. Sure, they get lazy as hell and stop writing drivers eventually, but that's rarely a concern, even though they seem to maintain a smaller set of drivers than even a single actual manufacturer of hardware.

I only installed Windows 10 in the first place to see whether or not I could, for kicks and giggles. Doing things that Apple tells me not to is pretty satisfying.

It's a little slower, it's not perfect, but most stuff is playable, especially if you have a decent system to start with.
Other people are also playing with VM and GPU passthrough, this looks interesting, but meh. Seems like a lot of hassle, most of the time you install Steam, tell it to use Proton for Windows games and click install. Works just like on Windows.

Lutris is a bit more complex, but capable of even more than Steam/Proton.

That's that in my mind then, they can try again when they've got all game developers going platform independent or something. Once performance is comparable, if ever, that is when I would consider gaming in Linux. Some games are poorly enough optimized as it is.

Death to DirectX.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: el_murdoque on Sat, 08 February 2020, 08:35:58
I must say, I recently (the day Bill Gates took his shotgun off the mantelpiece and went with Win7 behind the shed) upgraded from Win7 to Win10.
On my home system, that is. At work, all machines run Ubuntu except for one. We keep that around for our tax office. They run special software that does not come for MacOS or Linux. So it was a Win7 machine until the idiot clerk working on it clicked on the wrong answer when booting up and performed the Win10 upgrade by accident. That machine is used for a day every fortnight. We learned to work with it. Our office has very limited (VERY!) bandwidth and botting up that machine will usually result in the whole network slowing down for hours. So whenever the clerk plans to visit the next day, I get a call in the evening before and switch on that machine before I leave, so it has the whole night to update.
Everyone hates that machine with a certain passion.

At home, I struggled to set up a Win7 dualboot system with my Ubuntu already installed. Not going into details, Win7 would only boot with all the other Harddrives disconnected. So I thought to myself that an upgrade to Win10 will either solve this or make me abandon the idea for good.
I performed the upgrade and everything runs smoothly now.
It runs rather well.
I only installed a browser, anti virus software and Steam - because I do everything else on Ubuntu, only the games that won't run natively under Linux and are buggy through WINE will make me boot windows.
And that dreadful Logitech Software to program my mouse and set the lighting on my keyboard. That's it.
So far, I found about a gazillion things to disable with still more to go, but the system works rather well, no unwanted crashes and no speed issues.
I'd have imagined it a lot worse, especially since that machine at work is acting up that much, but that was an old Win7 that was clogged with software for a million things while my install at home was a virgin Win 7 with absolutely nothing installed.
 

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Sat, 08 February 2020, 16:02:14
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 08 February 2020, 17:53:50
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.

We've got a lot of systems still running Windows 7 at work. I haven't heard of this happening to them, although I think the network guy is pretty choosy about what updates he allows down the pipe.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 08 February 2020, 18:57:14
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.
There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Sat, 08 February 2020, 19:20:51
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.
There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.

That actually makes complete sense
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 08 February 2020, 19:23:08
(trimmed)
Our office has very limited (VERY!) bandwidth and botting up that machine will usually result in the whole network slowing down for hours. So whenever the clerk plans to visit the next day, I get a call in the evening before and switch on that machine before I leave, so it has the whole night to update.
Everyone hates that machine with a certain passion.

At home, I struggled to set up a Win7 dualboot system with my Ubuntu already installed. Not going into details, Win7 would only boot with all the other Harddrives disconnected.

So far, I found about a gazillion things to disable with still more to go, but the system works rather well, no unwanted crashes and no speed issues.
I'd have imagined it a lot worse, especially since that machine at work is acting up that much, but that was an old Win7 that was clogged with software for a million things while my install at home was a virgin Win 7 with absolutely nothing installed.
Expect a call very soon about that computer saying it's either still installing updates or it's stuck in a boot loop. Considering this is a necessary system used only occasionally I HIGHLY recommend you do one of three things, disable updates by any means necessary, rebuild it or replace it. Do it while it's down, NOT when it's an emergency and people are waiting on paychecks. Mark my words, it will happen and if you try and do it prior to failure your boss will probably try and buy time with  "well it can wait until next quarter" you can bet it will fail the month before causing all sorts of hell and it will fall on your shoulders to fix it and you may even get blamed for saying anything.

I recommend replacing it since it's clearly old and on spinning rust which is highly prone to failure after a few years. Turning it off and on only to get updates is actually going to make the problem worse as the drive goes from cold and stopped to spinning up and working hard to install lots of updates (i.e. hot!) then back to a cold idle state. Consistency is key, old spinning disks hate this sort of cycling.

Considering what they use it for, tell your boss to buy a cheap laptop, easy to stick on a shelf while not in use, freeing up a desk and giving you spare parts.


How old is your desktop and were you using GPT partitioning?
Mixing GPT and MSDOS partitions can cause the symptoms you described and Win10 coudl fix that by repartitioning the drive or changing the bios/EFI settings needed. While it fixed this problem, anything post Win7 has this ability as well as modifying the boot record, so while you may setup dual booting with grub Windows will reset your boot order in bios/EFI and remove grub so it boots straight into Windows every time.

Keep track of all those little tweaks you've done, first major update and you will have to do them all again.
Just be careful and don't do them without making sure they're compatible, MS has been known to shift and re-use registry keys for, at least from my perspective, malicious reasons. What used to disable an unwanted feature is now causes the system to not boot. I've seen this twice before I learned my lesson and many corporate techs have also given up chasing constantly changing tweaks.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Sat, 08 February 2020, 20:16:04
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.

Has he tried running something like shutdown -f -s -t 0 from the command prompt? If that works he could just slap a batch file on his desktop for the time being.

There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.

Interesting. Which Adobe service in particular? Most of our Windows 7 systems are running an ancient version of Acrobat Pro. Not sure how often they get flash updates, since any self-respecting website no longer uses it, and being a school everybody assumes that photo/video editing MUST be done on $1,500+ Macs, so I don't think any of them are running Illustrator or After Effects.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 13 February 2020, 16:55:40
Got home and saw my comp took updates reset itself. "WTF, I had auto updates explicitly turned off" I thought. Logged into Win 10 only to find my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound. I then spent literally 1.5 hours trying everything recommended to fix it, but to no avail. Finally I just uninstalled every update from the past 2 days, uninstalled all my audio devices and drivers, reboot and let base drivers install and remove previous updates, and it worked.

Aside from my time wasted, and how angry I got (probably knocked 5 years off my life,) I am more concerned that Win 10 thought it was OK to take updates I specifically told it not to take and reboot on it's own. Not cool.

Never had this issue with Win 7
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: abrahamstechnology on Thu, 13 February 2020, 17:39:38
Windows 7 is still working fine on both my Core2duo laptop and my more modern gaming PC with 4th generation i5.
I may get 0patch to patch them.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: romevi on Thu, 13 February 2020, 18:25:16
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Thu, 13 February 2020, 20:07:41
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!...

Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.

The update system is just a whole other can of worms that needs to be killed off.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 13 February 2020, 20:22:50
Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.

The update system is just a whole other can of worms that needs to be killed off.

Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update. 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:07:43
Interesting. Which Adobe service in particular? Most of our Windows 7 systems are running an ancient version of Acrobat Pro. Not sure how often they get flash updates, since any self-respecting website no longer uses it, and being a school everybody assumes that photo/video editing MUST be done on $1,500+ Macs, so I don't think any of them are running Illustrator or After Effects.
Pretty sure I answered this but I'm not seeing it. Anyhow, it was drm or CC, I didn't go digging too deep.


Got home and saw my comp took updates reset itself. "WTF, I had auto updates explicitly turned off" I thought. Logged into Win 10 only to find my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound. I then spent literally 1.5 hours trying everything recommended to fix it, but to no avail. Finally I just uninstalled every update from the past 2 days, uninstalled all my audio devices and drivers, reboot and let base drivers install and remove previous updates, and it worked.

Aside from my time wasted, and how angry I got (probably knocked 5 years off my life,) I am more concerned that Win 10 thought it was OK to take updates I specifically told it not to take and reboot on it's own. Not cool.

Never had this issue with Win 7
I did similar the other day, checked cords, drivers, restarting, checking services... spent almost an hour only to find I had bumped a volume knob. HAHA

Win10 does what it wants.
You can delay updates but not disable (O&O shutup 10 will disable it completely).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:23:17

my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound.

spent almost an hour only to find I had bumped a volume knob.


Just this afternoon I listened to a favorite album, loud and no problems, but then I decided to to swap the L-R rear channels (Logitech 5.1 running on a Creative X-Fi elite card) by unplugging and re-plugging the 2 wires on the back of the Logitech sub, and ended up with a dead silent system.

Tried everything, including re-installing the drivers, and Windows keeps telling me that there is nothing plugged in. I have fiddled with every wire connection multiple times.

Too tired to do anything else tonight, tomorrow I suppose that I will have to crack open the case and re-seat the sound card itself. What a pain! This hardware setup is great except that it seems like I have to go through this exercise every couple of years, and it is always a problem because I have a tight space and a nightmare of wires in the back!


 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:27:23
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.
If that is a recent thing, MS was routing data through a 3rd party (the privacy issues just get better and better don't they?) and they went down.

If it's been going on a while, I'd question their networks and what all is on them. The Windows update system can cause a LOT of network traffic flooding out systems, particularly if they're on wifi or 10/100.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Fri, 14 February 2020, 06:44:51
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update. 

Can't install telemetry if it can't update! My DRM gaming drive is an old clean build of the "no update since packages dropped" experiment I've been running. Still no hickups  :thumb:

If that is a recent thing, MS was routing data through a 3rd party (the privacy issues just get better and better don't they?) and they went down.

If it's been going on a while, I'd question their networks and what all is on them. The Windows update system can cause a LOT of network traffic flooding out systems, particularly if they're on wifi or 10/100.

It's been ongoing the past year. I've tried thoroughly testing their networks and one of them is definitely part of the issue (basic package and using wifi from the all-in-one...), but the other two are mysteries I can only point at 10; most of their hickups seem to co-inside with what look to be MS pings. I suggested blocking it though their routers, but no one wants to deal with that  :-X
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 14 February 2020, 08:39:38
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Fri, 14 February 2020, 13:19:11
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.


Same
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 14 February 2020, 13:43:07
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.


Linux is a pain in the ass, I wouldn't call it user-friendly at all.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 14 February 2020, 20:29:43
Can't install telemetry if it can't update! My DRM gaming drive is an old clean build of the "no update since packages dropped" experiment I've been running. Still no hickups  :thumb:

MS spent MONTHS slowly rolling out bits and parts of it.
Here's an older, partial list that includes some optional /questionable ones.
More
kb:971033, kb:2505438,kb:2670838, kb:2882822, kb:2902907, kb:2952664, kb:2976978, kb:2977759, kb:2990214, kb:3012973, kb:3015249, kb:3021917, kb:3022345, kb:3035583, kb3042058, kb:3044374, kb:3050265, kb:3050267, kb:3064683, kb:3065987, kb:3065988, kb:3068708, kb:3072318, kb:3074677, kb:3075249, kb:3075851, kb:3075853, kb:3078667, kb3080149, kb:3081437, kb:3081454, kb:3081954, kb:3083324, kb:3083325, kb:3083710, kb:3083711, kb:3086255, kb:3088195, kb:3090045, kb:3093983, kb:3102810, kb:3102812, kb3107998



It's been ongoing the past year. I've tried thoroughly testing their networks and one of them is definitely part of the issue (basic package and using wifi from the all-in-one...), but the other two are mysteries I can only point at 10; most of their hickups seem to co-inside with what look to be MS pings. I suggested blocking it though their routers, but no one wants to deal with that  :-X
10 phones home but also uses something akin to torrent to share updates between all systems on the network. Horrible system in terms of overhead.

I had a small office using 10/100 hardwired connections which worked fine even with voip for all their phones, but as soon as a handful switched to Win10 it became a boggy bloated mess. They replaced the router thinking it was the issue, then they replaced the modem and upped the cable speed, both had almost no impact, then they called me (I could have told them neither was the issue). I checked the network and realized it had a 10/100 switch and with the data they moved and prices I installed a gigabit router which helped some. I then put bandwidth limits in the router, that too helped but only a tiny bit and ended up slowing speeds when the office was slow.

Later while doing some work l found that the the laptops they purchased (at my recommendation) were not gigabit (deceptive marketing) and even if the laptops/desktops were, the VOIP system piggybacked the network connection and those, which they got cheap were also 10/100 so even if we used usb gigabit adapters and got them up to half gigabit the phone would take them back to 100. It took a lot of work to get them to understand the only fix was new phones and laptops, unfortunately the owner is the very definition of a miser so he drug his heels. And if you think that was tough, try getting him to spend a bit extra for an ssd...

It always amazes me how short sighted some "smart" business people are when it comes to where they put their money, this place relied on computers and yet they always bought cheap and more than they needed because they knew they would fail (1 spare for every 3 people!). Time is money and they will complain when an employee spends 30 seconds checking Facebook or a few minutes in the bathroom but it's fine to wait 5 minutes for a system boot every morning. 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 14 February 2020, 20:53:27
People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.
You can get almost anything but AAA titles working at this point, I expect to be playing Borderlands 3 shortly after it hits Steam

Typically it's not going to be AS good because it's not native, but it's pretty darn good, some even appear to run better due to less overhead and better multi-core performance if it's CPU heavy (like GTA).


Linux is a pain in the ass, I wouldn't call it user-friendly at all.
It's not, it's just different.
You've spent how long learning and coming to understand Windows, you can't expect to be that proficient with Linux or even Mac right out of the gate.

Worse, the longer you've been on Windows the harder it is.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Surefoot on Sat, 15 February 2020, 02:37:36
Just installed a fresh windows 10 for a friends computer, i can say it takes a lot longer and is now more difficult than getting Ubuntu on it (we did install it first to test hardware)...
So YMMV of course but user friendliness is subjective, and there are some cold hard measurements we can do like the insane amount of reboots that windows still performs, the aggressive personal data collection, or the way it tries to shove Edge browser and Bing just everywhere it can. Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 15 February 2020, 03:08:05
Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.
So much this.

Want to game? try Pop!
It already has the latest drivers, kernel and I believe even DXVK (direct x equivalent), you pretty much just check a box to install Steam and start installing your games just like Steam in Windows. It's actually easier than windows, you don't have to go to the Steam website.

And that's just some of it.
Some of your Windows software auto updates, but much of it has separate programs to do so, take Chrome for instance, it loads up two services just to maintain Chrome. Firefox does it automatically in the background but others you need to manually tell it to update or even go to the website and download the update then manually install it. Linux, I click an icon, tell it to update and everything updates. In seconds.

I'm not saying Linux is perfect, it takes time to adapt, and like I said, the longer you use Windows the harder it is, and if you dual boot, you only delay the process more because you just keep reverting instead of learning how to do it. This is why Mac users adapt "easy", they have no choice, they throw themselves into the deep end and learn to swim. While it's great to dip your toes and get your feet wet,  at some point you either have to commit or be happy with just a wet foot. A wet foot is not swimming, I dual booted with Linux doing almost everything for 6 months, when I made the jump, I learned more in a week than I did in the last 6 months.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sat, 15 February 2020, 04:29:39

MS spent MONTHS slowly rolling out bits and parts of it.
Here's an older, partial list that includes some optional /questionable ones.
More
kb:971033, kb:2505438,kb:2670838, kb:2882822, kb:2902907, kb:2952664, kb:2976978, kb:2977759, kb:2990214, kb:3012973, kb:3015249, kb:3021917, kb:3022345, kb:3035583, kb3042058, kb:3044374, kb:3050265, kb:3050267, kb:3064683, kb:3065987, kb:3065988, kb:3068708, kb:3072318, kb:3074677, kb:3075249, kb:3075851, kb:3075853, kb:3078667, kb3080149, kb:3081437, kb:3081454, kb:3081954, kb:3083324, kb:3083325, kb:3083710, kb:3083711, kb:3086255, kb:3088195, kb:3090045, kb:3093983, kb:3102810, kb:3102812, kb3107998



10 phones home but also uses something akin to torrent to share updates between all systems on the network. Horrible system in terms of overhead.

I had a small office using 10/100 hardwired connections which worked fine even with voip for all their phones, but as soon as a handful switched to Win10 it became a boggy bloated mess. They replaced the router thinking it was the issue, then they replaced the modem and upped the cable speed, both had almost no impact, then they called me (I could have told them neither was the issue). I checked the network and realized it had a 10/100 switch and with the data they moved and prices I installed a gigabit router which helped some. I then put bandwidth limits in the router, that too helped but only a tiny bit and ended up slowing speeds when the office was slow.

Later while doing some work l found that the the laptops they purchased (at my recommendation) were not gigabit (deceptive marketing) and even if the laptops/desktops were, the VOIP system piggybacked the network connection and those, which they got cheap were also 10/100 so even if we used usb gigabit adapters and got them up to half gigabit the phone would take them back to 100. It took a lot of work to get them to understand the only fix was new phones and laptops, unfortunately the owner is the very definition of a miser so he drug his heels. And if you think that was tough, try getting him to spend a bit extra for an ssd...

It always amazes me how short sighted some "smart" business people are when it comes to where they put their money, this place relied on computers and yet they always bought cheap and more than they needed because they knew they would fail (1 spare for every 3 people!). Time is money and they will complain when an employee spends 30 seconds checking Facebook or a few minutes in the bathroom but it's fine to wait 5 minutes for a system boot every morning. 

The clean clone was put together when they started with their package updates. Researched those singles beforehand as well, so it's probably as clean as it'll get (it runs pretty slick and no network issues, so I'm happy).

Ah god, I bet the business owner was gnawing his fingernails for a while with all that, haha.

Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.
So much this.

Want to game? try Pop!
It already has the latest drivers, kernel and I believe even DXVK (direct x equivalent), you pretty much just check a box to install Steam and start installing your games just like Steam in Windows. It's actually easier than windows, you don't have to go to the Steam website.

And that's just some of it.
Some of your Windows software auto updates, but much of it has separate programs to do so, take Chrome for instance, it loads up two services just to maintain Chrome. Firefox does it automatically in the background but others you need to manually tell it to update or even go to the website and download the update then manually install it. Linux, I click an icon, tell it to update and everything updates. In seconds.

I'm not saying Linux is perfect, it takes time to adapt, and like I said, the longer you use Windows the harder it is, and if you dual boot, you only delay the process more because you just keep reverting instead of learning how to do it. This is why Mac users adapt "easy", they have no choice, they throw themselves into the deep end and learn to swim. While it's great to dip your toes and get your feet wet,  at some point you either have to commit or be happy with just a wet foot. A wet foot is not swimming, I dual booted with Linux doing almost everything for 6 months, when I made the jump, I learned more in a week than I did in the last 6 months.

I'll add to that and say give Solus a try too. They finally dropped a new package so it's ready to go for new hardware. Some long time linux users call it boring, but I like that about it (not enough time to **** around just to get things going any more, I like it when things just work, haha). It's just simple to get running and I haven't had any real issues with mostly using the GUI to do anything.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 15 February 2020, 05:32:33
Some long time linux users call it boring, but I like that about it (not enough time to **** around just to get things going any more, I like it when things just work, haha). It's just simple to get running and I haven't had any real issues with mostly using the GUI to do anything.

Funny you say that, Linux was the first and only OS I actually got bored with.

With Windows there was always something new to try, to fix, download, clean, update... It's constantly evolving and changing. Once I found my preferred distro, it just runs. It's great, but boring.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Sun, 16 February 2020, 06:14:34
Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Sun, 16 February 2020, 16:43:50
Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.

With these three in particular, I'm just at the point of "If it works fine why update it?". Not sure how old my Realtek driver is, but Nvidia is still on 431.60 since it's the most stable driver to date.

I'm seriously not sure what I'll do when I get around to building a new system and put together a Windows 10 drive for DRM gaming at this point. It'll be one of those things I poke with a stick to make sure it won't explode every time I boot it, hahaha.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 16 February 2020, 19:22:46
At minimum, use O&OShutup10, that will allow you to control/disable updates.

Best case, use Enterprise or better still, Enterprise LTSC.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 23 February 2020, 18:42:39
Okay, can anyone explain why, through social media, that I would want to share or Rate and Review the camera app in Win10? Or any other built in app?

I would say it's a generic thing that all apps get, but they don't. Regardless, who even thought doing that from the start menu was a good idea? Who in their right minds looked at the start menu and though "I really want to post that on Facebook!" Sometimes the disconnect between MS (and marketers for that matter) and people just blows my mind.

"Look, we can be social, too!!"
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sun, 23 February 2020, 19:24:42
Okay, can anyone explain why, through social media, that I would want to share or Rate and Review the camera app in Win10? Or any other built in app?

I would say it's a generic thing that all apps get, but they don't. Regardless, who even thought doing that from the start menu was a good idea? Who in their right minds looked at the start menu and though "I really want to post that on Facebook!" Sometimes the disconnect between MS (and marketers for that matter) and people just blows my mind.

"Look, we can be social, too!!"


Gekhk,  the wurld of shut-ins..
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Mon, 24 February 2020, 00:59:49
Okay, can anyone explain why, through social media, that I would want to share or Rate and Review the camera app in Win10? Or any other built in app?

I would say it's a generic thing that all apps get, but they don't. Regardless, who even thought doing that from the start menu was a good idea? Who in their right minds looked at the start menu and though "I really want to post that on Facebook!" Sometimes the disconnect between MS (and marketers for that matter) and people just blows my mind.

"Look, we can be social, too!!"
(Attachment Link)

I'd say in support of their mobile platforms, but that's dead and buried. At this point, probably denial and wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: romevi on Mon, 24 February 2020, 01:12:03
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!...


Go on...
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 24 February 2020, 07:32:33
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!

Go on ....

Don't worry, be happy!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 24 February 2020, 08:13:44
Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.

With these three in particular, I'm just at the point of "If it works fine why update it?". Not sure how old my Realtek driver is, but Nvidia is still on 431.60 since it's the most stable driver to date.

I'm seriously not sure what I'll do when I get around to building a new system and put together a Windows 10 drive for DRM gaming at this point. It'll be one of those things I poke with a stick to make sure it won't explode every time I boot it, hahaha.

I haven't had any problems with drivers in recent memory, across many devices, keeping most of them fairy cutting edge with SDIO. The most recent Nvidia hotfix actually finally seems to have fixed all of the occasional freezing issues I was having in RDR2.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Mon, 24 February 2020, 18:21:22
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!...


Go on...

You'd have to sign up for a social media account to see part of whats up. I never had any (or even put personal social info on the net) until a few years back, but during sign up, the site (Facebook) already had general information on me (no surprise) and it's guesses about my hobbies was alarmingly accurate.

Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.

With these three in particular, I'm just at the point of "If it works fine why update it?". Not sure how old my Realtek driver is, but Nvidia is still on 431.60 since it's the most stable driver to date.

I'm seriously not sure what I'll do when I get around to building a new system and put together a Windows 10 drive for DRM gaming at this point. It'll be one of those things I poke with a stick to make sure it won't explode every time I boot it, hahaha.

I haven't had any problems with drivers in recent memory, across many devices, keeping most of them fairy cutting edge with SDIO. The most recent Nvidia hotfix actually finally seems to have fixed all of the occasional freezing issues I was having in RDR2.

Which driver release? I haven't looked into stability testing for the past few months.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 25 February 2020, 07:47:26
Which driver release? I haven't looked into stability testing for the past few months.

442.37 I think. RDR2 would arbitrarily freeze prior to this update, sometimes within 5 minutes of launching the game, with both a 980m and 1070. I haven't had a single freeze since.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: romevi on Thu, 27 February 2020, 12:16:07
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!...


Go on...

You'd have to sign up for a social media account to see part of whats up. I never had any (or even put personal social info on the net) until a few years back, but during sign up, the site (Facebook) already had general information on me (no surprise) and it's guesses about my hobbies was alarmingly accurate.

They probably had the information from the shadow profile they create of you. Facebook creates shadow profiles for people who don't have accounts. They're one of the biggest violators of privacy on the internet, if not the biggest. Google also collects way more data than is required, and with Windows 10 being partly in the cloud they collect and store a lot of info they don't need.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 27 February 2020, 17:14:58
Facebook probably is the worst because they cover so many platforms and websites and what they log, I have them blocked in multiple ways on everything, they still sneak in.  Google is a close second and I hope we have a change in administration before it reaches conclusion so it can be stopped (linking you to your financials/credit). Doubleclick, now owned by Google tried this before and was shot down, which is why Google now owns them but this is ultimately their goal. Which is why Google is blocked as much as possible as well.

Despite all this, even they are not as brazen as MS and Win10, they basically took it to it's logical conclusion. If it could be logged and/or sent to them, it does. The only reason it now(!) lacks a keylogger is because of France. It still tracks everything clear down to network ID and passwords it's just not logging keystrokes unless you type them into a search field.

Facebook and Google may know you your hobbies, your friends and your financial bracket but MS knows where the bodies are buried.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Thu, 27 February 2020, 17:28:37
They probably had the information from the shadow profile they create of you. Facebook creates shadow profiles for people who don't have accounts. They're one of the biggest violators of privacy on the internet, if not the biggest. Google also collects way more data than is required, and with Windows 10 being partly in the cloud they collect and store a lot of info they don't need.

Facebook probably is the worst because they cover so many platforms and websites and what they log, I have them blocked in multiple ways on everything, they still sneak in.  Google is a close second and I hope we have a change in administration before it reaches conclusion so it can be stopped (linking you to your financials/credit). Doubleclick, now owned by Google tried this before and was shot down, which is why Google now owns them but this is ultimately their goal. Which is why Google is blocked as much as possible as well.

Despite all this, even they are not as brazen as MS and Win10, they basically took it to it's logical conclusion. If it could be logged and/or sent to them, it does. The only reason it now(!) lacks a keylogger is because of France. It still tracks everything clear down to network ID and passwords it's just not logging keystrokes unless you type them into a search field.

Facebook and Google may know you your hobbies, your friends and your financial bracket but MS knows where the bodies are buried.

Couldn't have said it better. Your life isn't private anymore unless you live in the woods off the grid, haha.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 27 February 2020, 17:34:06
Couldn't have said it better. Your life isn't private anymore unless you live in the woods off the grid, haha.


It's more like, your life doesn't matter if no one cares.

A nobody is invisible.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: StickyBlueJuice on Fri, 28 February 2020, 04:54:34
A nobody is invisible.
Just how I like it.  :cool:
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 28 February 2020, 06:48:18
A nobody is invisible.
Just how I like it.  :cool:

(https://i.imgur.com/RSB9WCf.gif)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Fri, 28 February 2020, 17:30:42
Couldn't have said it better. Your life isn't private anymore unless you live in the woods off the grid, haha.


It's more like, your life doesn't matter if no one cares.

A nobody is invisible.


Ouch. C'mon man, the truth hurts  :'(
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 29 February 2020, 06:02:38
There is quite a bit you can do to minimize your footprint, however if you didn't start a while back, it's a bit late and how minimal depends a bit on how convenient you want things to be.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 29 February 2020, 08:04:55
Just stay p00r.. never get on their radar.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Altis on Sat, 29 February 2020, 13:58:43
Win10 drives me nuts on laptop. It's always burning through battery (and mobile data) to do forced updates/"virus scanning", and all sorts of other 'tasks'.

It's become insufferable.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 29 February 2020, 16:22:48
Win10 drives me nuts on laptop. It's always burning through battery (and mobile data) to do forced updates/"virus scanning", and all sorts of other 'tasks'.

It's become insufferable.
Become? It's done that since the beta.

It was the final nail in the coffin for me in regards to running Windows, I stuck it out long enough to get my free key for being a tester and then ditched it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 03 March 2020, 10:40:27
Win10 drives me nuts on laptop. It's always burning through battery (and mobile data) to do forced updates/"virus scanning", and all sorts of other 'tasks'.

It's become insufferable.
Become? It's done that since the beta.

It was the final nail in the coffin for me in regards to running Windows, I stuck it out long enough to get my free key for being a tester and then ditched it.

>_> <_< You can still activate Windows 10 with 7 licenses. Free keys are literally everywhere.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 03 March 2020, 20:20:52
>_> <_< You can still activate Windows 10 with 7 licenses. Free keys are literally everywhere.
Not when it was released.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 04 March 2020, 16:56:20
>_> <_< You can still activate Windows 10 with 7 licenses. Free keys are literally everywhere.
Not when it was released.

I'm pretty sure that you could. That was one of their marketing ploys to try to get people to adopt more quickly, and acted like it was a limited-time thing. I forget how long ago now it was that they pretended that that program ended. If you couldn't, I'm not sure how I immediately went from beta licenses to full on 10 Pro licenses on 3-4+ systems. I've been daily driving it from pretty early on, once I found it to be relatively stable enough, save for the early driver ... issues.

I never was a fan of Windows 7 to begin with. It beats Vista, but that's not saying much. Would have been nice if M$ had chosen XP as their "final" operating system.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Wed, 04 March 2020, 19:16:31
Every time I reset my comp now my sound defaults to the HDMI port and reinstalls the wrong drivers automatically. SO FUN, THANKS WIN10!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: OtherBarry1992 on Wed, 04 March 2020, 19:54:08
Love me some windows 10, although on my xps 13 I have Ubuntu dual booting.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 04 March 2020, 22:35:44
Every time I reset my comp now my sound defaults to the HDMI port and reinstalls the wrong drivers automatically. SO FUN, THANKS WIN10!

Is that worse than Windows 7 having no idea what 25% of the devices even are? Maybe I'm old school, but I don't let my operating system choose my drivers for me. You might want to look into SDIO, go to OEM product pages, or start looking up hardware IDs.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 05 March 2020, 03:49:27
I'm pretty sure that you could. That was one of their marketing ploys to try to get people to adopt more quickly, and acted like it was a limited-time thing. I forget how long ago now it was that they pretended that that program ended. If you couldn't, I'm not sure how I immediately went from beta licenses to full on 10 Pro licenses on 3-4+ systems. I've been daily driving it from pretty early on, once I found it to be relatively stable enough, save for the early driver ... issues.
Blah, I misread it as being able to buy cheap keys everywhere, which I don't think were available right away for Win10, though like you said you could use a Win7 or 8 key.

I just wanted the free key because it was free and supposed to be some special key, and I collect keys (for some stupid reason). Then it came out it was free, but only access to beta builds or something (it was a few years ago and I lost interest). All of that has changed, now everyone has access to them and the beta keys are now just normal keys, I think.

Don't do the beta channel unless you like pain.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 05 March 2020, 03:57:07
Every time I reset my comp now my sound defaults to the HDMI port and reinstalls the wrong drivers automatically. SO FUN, THANKS WIN10!

It decided my scanner didn't need access to the drive the other day, I feel your pain.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Darthbaggins on Thu, 02 April 2020, 07:24:46
That is why I still run a SoundBlaster Zx, only time sound changes is due to a GPU driver update and even then it just defaults to my Kanto YU2's instead of my headset.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 02 April 2020, 08:47:35
That is why I still run a SoundBlaster Zx, only time sound changes is due to a GPU driver update and even then it just defaults to my Kanto YU2's instead of my headset.

I'm still surprised by this. I have run Windows 10 on countless configurations of hardware, partly just to play with it. I have had 0 audio driver problems, but I also usually use SDIO to pull all of the actual OEM, up-to-date drivers straight from the latest driver packs instead of waiting for M$ to shovel their random nonsense in.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: AlexeiSayle on Sat, 04 April 2020, 18:27:48
If you're not quite sold on Windows 10 and just want to run it alongside another operating system such as Windows 8.1 or Linux
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Sun, 05 April 2020, 16:20:07
Facebook probably is the worst because they cover so many platforms and websites and what they log, I have them blocked in multiple ways on everything, they still sneak in.  Google is a close second and I hope we have a change in administration before it reaches conclusion so it can be stopped (linking you to your financials/credit). Doubleclick, now owned by Google tried this before and was shot down, which is why Google now owns them but this is ultimately their goal. Which is why Google is blocked as much as possible as well.

Despite all this, even they are not as brazen as MS and Win10, they basically took it to it's logical conclusion. If it could be logged and/or sent to them, it does. The only reason it now(!) lacks a keylogger is because of France. It still tracks everything clear down to network ID and passwords it's just not logging keystrokes unless you type them into a search field.

Facebook and Google may know you your hobbies, your friends and your financial bracket but MS knows where the bodies are buried.

Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 05 April 2020, 19:30:43
Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
You can't buy it on a home computer.
It's volume license only (A.K.A. big business) or fly the Jolly Roger.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 06 April 2020, 05:16:57
Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
You can't buy it on a home computer.
It's volume license only (A.K.A. big business) or fly the Jolly Roger.

News @ 11, woman arrested for breaching software vendor agreement, selling nearly 50,000 copies of microsoft software to unqualified end-users, many of whom she met on what experts describe as an online computer peripheral fetishism website, to which the perpetrator is a member of under the alias Leslieann.

> Do you wish to know more ?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 06 April 2020, 08:20:21
Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
You can't buy it on a home computer.
It's volume license only (A.K.A. big business) or fly the Jolly Roger.

News @ 11, woman arrested for breaching software vendor agreement, selling nearly 50,000 copies of microsoft software to unqualified end-users, many of whom she met on what experts describe as an online computer peripheral fetishism website, to which the perpetrator is a member of under the alias Leslieann.

> Do you wish to know more ?


Do you wish to know more? Is this Starship Troopers? lol
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Mon, 06 April 2020, 18:38:15

Do you wish to know more ?

TP4 has a lot of class - all low.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Darthbaggins on Mon, 06 April 2020, 19:52:39
Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
You can't buy it on a home computer.
It's volume license only (A.K.A. big business) or fly the Jolly Roger.

News @ 11, woman arrested for breaching software vendor agreement, selling nearly 50,000 copies of microsoft software to unqualified end-users, many of whom she met on what experts describe as an online computer peripheral fetishism website, to which the perpetrator is a member of under the alias Leslieann.

> Do you wish to know more ?


Do you wish to know more? Is this Starship Troopers? lol

LMAO, unfortunately windows doesn't believe that a good bug is a dead bug
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 06 April 2020, 21:45:57
Next time i get a pc i'm going to get windows 10 ltsc instead of home
You can't buy it on a home computer.
It's volume license only (A.K.A. big business) or fly the Jolly Roger.

News @ 11, woman arrested for breaching software vendor agreement, selling nearly 50,000 copies of microsoft software to unqualified end-users, many of whom she met on what experts describe as an online computer peripheral fetishism website, to which the perpetrator is a member of under the alias Leslieann.

> Do you wish to know more ?


Do you wish to know more? Is this Starship Troopers? lol

LMAO, unfortunately windows doesn't believe that a good bug is a dead bug

The brain bug got to their best and brightest years ago. They can no longer be stopped.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Tue, 07 April 2020, 16:33:40
I use Windows 10 at home and work. I work in computing at the University of Bath, so it's bread and butter there and keeping up to date at home just makes sense so there is parity in my desktop experience. Having access to N versions means I can run Pro at home and Enterprise at work. I like Linux well enough and have a box at work for Kali (I do some cybersecurity work) or Ubuntu depending on how I'm feeling, the gaming experience on Linux has come on leaps and bounds but is still nowhere near the level of completeness I'd expect from Windows.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Wed, 08 April 2020, 19:15:42
Win10 continues to install updates on it's own even after I paused all updates and made exceptions for it not to do so. Today I actually had to stop it from rebooting all on it's own right when I was in the middle of something because it installed an update secretly while I was asleep without permission.

Why even have an option to pause and turn off updates if Win10 just completely ignores that and does whatever it wants anyway?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 08 April 2020, 20:15:16
Win10 continues to install updates on it's own even after I paused all updates and made exceptions for it not to do so. Today I actually had to stop it from rebooting all on it's own right when I was in the middle of something because it installed an update secretly while I was asleep without permission.

Why even have an option to pause and turn off updates if Win10 just completely ignores that and does whatever it wants anyway?
Important security fixes do not get deferred.

What constitutes an important update is up to them though and they've been known to send them out without proper testing.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Shapey Fiend on Thu, 09 April 2020, 11:18:38
I definitely disliked Windows 10 a lot at first. Went back to Windows 7 for a couple of years. By the time I bought another laptop with Windows 10 preinstalled it had either improved or I'd gotten accustomed to it.

My main gripe with modern Windows is I don't like File Explorer as much. They took out the recent folders thing which meant I rarely had to dig through my whole file structure to find jobs cos they were usually up there already with a single click.

edit: I see I can actually restore that function might give it a go.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Thu, 09 April 2020, 16:24:46
I definitely disliked Windows 10 a lot at first. Went back to Windows 7 for a couple of years. By the time I bought another laptop with Windows 10 preinstalled it had either improved or I'd gotten accustomed to it.

My main gripe with modern Windows is I don't like File Explorer as much. They took out the recent folders thing which meant I rarely had to dig through my whole file structure to find jobs cos they were usually up there already with a single click.

edit: I see I can actually restore that function might give it a go.

Yeah, there are several flavours of restorative mods to fix File Explorer, likewise, some theming that can make it look a lot nicer too.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Mon, 13 April 2020, 07:30:07
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/04/12/microsoft-windows-10-warning-crashes-boot-internet-connection-slowdown-problems-upgrade-windows-10-free/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/04/12/microsoft-windows-10-warning-crashes-boot-internet-connection-slowdown-problems-upgrade-windows-10-free/)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 13 April 2020, 07:57:25
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

Seems pretty much every other month there's something.
I was also seeing a bit of talk about bad GPU drivers today, so that may have also updated for some people.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 13 April 2020, 08:07:36
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

Seems pretty much every other month there's something.
I was also seeing a bit of talk about bad GPU drivers today, so that may have also updated for some people.

Not even using build 9x
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: f1 on Mon, 13 April 2020, 10:47:51
If you must use Windows 10, use Sledgehammer (formerly WUMT Wrapper Script)

Sent from my smartphone which I have. Case, charger and everything.

Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 13 April 2020, 13:45:34
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

Seems pretty much every other month there's something.
I was also seeing a bit of talk about bad GPU drivers today, so that may have also updated for some people.

I don't know why they would bother. The drivers always seem to be 4-5 years out of date anyway. Maybe not for somewhat modern dedicated cards, but I couldn't fathom why people would be relying on M$' drivers for such things.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 13 April 2020, 20:33:01
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

Seems pretty much every other month there's something.
I was also seeing a bit of talk about bad GPU drivers today, so that may have also updated for some people.

I don't know why they would bother. The drivers always seem to be 4-5 years out of date anyway. Maybe not for somewhat modern dedicated cards, but I couldn't fathom why people would be relying on M$' drivers for such things.
Because most people never mess with their system once it's up and running and have no idea those drivers are so out of date.
Manufacturers and MS aren't blameless here either.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Skull_Angel on Tue, 14 April 2020, 17:46:07
I've not taken an update in months because MS cannot be trusted to do their jobs. The entire Win Update team are nothing but **** ups at this point.

Seems pretty much every other month there's something.
I was also seeing a bit of talk about bad GPU drivers today, so that may have also updated for some people.

I don't know why they would bother. The drivers always seem to be 4-5 years out of date anyway. Maybe not for somewhat modern dedicated cards, but I couldn't fathom why people would be relying on M$' drivers for such things.

In theory, it's a good idea to distribute older drivers that have been tested stable for standard use, but in practice it's rarely done properly, esp. with the whole "bundle" trend being pushed. Standard consumers don't care as long as it works most of the time, and companies have found out that this demographic doesn't care enough to do anything but ***** a bit when it doesn't work (no repercussions, cool, keep low-balling QA until there are).

Super users get the shaft by having to pay more for a more configurable option (lol) and/or needing to dedicate more time on driver installation, configuration, and hacking [depending on the ecosystem]. The problem is that super users are in such a small minority that they have more success fixing issues themselves and relaying that information to their communities than fighting for proper QA changes.

The whole mentality needs to change, but that's not likely to happen until "digital life" reaches a point where the livelihood of corporations has a critical relationship with standard consumer interactions. Unfortunately, that's unlikely due to the success of the large corporations [giving them financial immunity and the power to influence the direction of changes] that determine this necessity, and the sheer volume of standard consumers who are indifferent to quality standards [as long as they are able to do the bare minimum].

I would love to see what would happen if IP owners lost their exclusivity rights due to failure to meet certain QA levels.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 14 April 2020, 18:07:51
People always jump to blaming QA for missing a bug but 99% of the time it's not QA's fault at all. In fact most of the time that bug is known and reported multiple times and the engineers just ignore all suggestions.

I know for a fact MS cares more about meeting deadlines than they do about fixing known issues. It goes so far as a QA team missing a previous milestone due to not having enough time, then being scolded and given more work than before with even less time to complete it. It's so ****ed over there.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 15 April 2020, 08:19:47
People always jump to blaming QA for missing a bug but 99% of the time it's not QA's fault at all. In fact most of the time that bug is known and reported multiple times and the engineers just ignore all suggestions.

I know for a fact MS cares more about meeting deadlines than they do about fixing known issues. It goes so far as a QA team missing a previous milestone due to not having enough time, then being scolded and given more work than before with even less time to complete it. It's so ****ed over there.

Sounds like publishers pushing deadlines onto game developers.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: TacticalCoder on Thu, 16 April 2020, 10:53:46
I don't user Windows at all but the wife has got three computer in her SOHO: two Windows machine and an OS X one.  The two Windows machines are on Windows 8.1 and if I recall correctly I installed "Never 10" on both of these as soon as she got them, so that the machines wouldn't suddenly upgrade to 10 overnight in case she mis-clicks one of these infamous "Aren't you not sure you don't want to not upgrade now or later?" with then three possible choices like "maybe / I cannot say I don't want not to / remind me tomorrow" (well, I'm being facetious obviously but you know what I'm talking about: users upgrading by mistake to a version they didn't plan to upgrade to).


Speaking of which, in the first page of this thread a user posted "I still have a sour taste in my mouth over how aggressive Microsoft was in encouraging (tricking) people into upgrading.".  That's what I'm talking about.

"Never 10" seems to be doing it's job fine since, well, years now as both machines are still on 8.1 and she's not constantly nagged by popups trying to trick her into upgrading to 10.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Mon, 11 May 2020, 20:07:30
This has now become a monthly routine - Win10 takes a security update after I tell it to not to take any updates and even rewrite system files to disable it, and wouldn't ya know, the update breaks my comp every damn time.

I can't disable them, can't stop them, and 100% of the time they break something important.

I guess this is just life with Windows 10


Hey on the upside I'm getting really good at identifying and troubleshooting Win10
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: typo on Mon, 11 May 2020, 21:44:39
I use it because I am on fast track and I get paid to evaluate the bugs :)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: funkmon on Mon, 11 May 2020, 23:01:19
I've gotta say that I use Windows because I have it set up exactly the way I like it. You normally hear this about Linux guys, but I have it for Windows. Cool animated wallpapers that use the GPU, Lightroom and a **** ton of presets for photos, easy stuff. Games are less important even though I did spend ****ing $500 on this video card to play games, I still barely ever play em, but they're also a priority. So yeah, every few months I go and try to install a new Linux distro and just go back to Windows because it works how I want it to. I only ever do Linux if it's on an older computer where Windows has too much overhead, and the way I have it set up is too much of a hassle.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 12 May 2020, 08:57:31
This has now become a monthly routine - Win10 takes a security update after I tell it to not to take any updates and even rewrite system files to disable it, and wouldn't ya know, the update breaks my comp every damn time.

I can't disable them, can't stop them, and 100% of the time they break something important.

I guess this is just life with Windows 10


Hey on the upside I'm getting really good at identifying and troubleshooting Win10

I don't know how you keep running into weird problems like that. A lot of the computers in our district are already all running Windows 10. I have been using it on all of my somewhat modern computers since 10 first went into beta testing. I have had continuously updated 10 installs running without a fresh reinstall for 2-3 years straight with all updates turned on without ever encountering a problem like this.

I have had a few profile problems, and a few driver problems when 10 was still going through growing pains, and that's it.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 12 May 2020, 15:14:28
I think it was Microsoft's way of telling me they no longer support my hardware. After ripping it out and using the base mobo sound I've had no issues with Windows getting confused. They did the same thing forcing me to switch over from 7, just gradually break each thing 'till I've had enough and comply.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 12 May 2020, 16:15:38
I think it was Microsoft's way of telling me they no longer support my hardware. After ripping it out and using the base mobo sound I've had no issues with Windows getting confused. They did the same thing forcing me to switch over from 7, just gradually break each thing 'till I've had enough and comply.

Which hardware? M$' default drivers suck anyway. I don't use them. I have mentioned it in this thread, but I have had 10 running with 100% functionality on tons of random hardware, including one of the first Intel-based Macbook Pros, which is not supported at all by Apple. I don't think they even supported past Windows 7 on that laptop.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 05 June 2020, 13:19:37
I know that this has probably been answered, but I recently built and created a new desktop computer with a fresh retail Windows 10 (and the v1909 update).

How to I remove Cortana completely and "forever" (I already did the regedit AllowCortana=0) and force Windows searches to search *ONLY* my local physical computer files?

I have gone into all the settings that I can find and checked "search local machine only" or similar choices but whenever I put something in the search bar up pops the heinous Bing and I get an avalanche of internet searches. (I have also removed Bing from internet searches but it always seems to come back.)

Thanks

PS - is it possible to disengage this physical device from whatever Microsoft "account" it is attached to?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 05 June 2020, 18:43:41
Yea... or jus install Win7 and be happy4ever.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Fri, 05 June 2020, 19:20:31
I like how Win10 doesn't let me launch MS games without disabling a bunch of Win10 features. Good job, really nailin' it over at MS!
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 06 June 2020, 06:17:44
How to I remove Cortana completely and "forever" (I already did the regedit AllowCortana=0) and force Windows searches to search *ONLY* my local physical computer files?

PS - is it possible to disengage this physical device from whatever Microsoft "account" it is attached to?

O&OShutup10 (https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10) will let you kill Cortana as well as a ton of other things.

[url-https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4027068/windows-10-switch-your-device-to-a-local-account]MS how-to to switch to offline account[/url]



By the way
When setting up a new system disconnect from the net before you get to account creation otherwise MS is now making it extremely difficult or even impossible to bypass it. Just easier to go offline and let it default to that. Each year has heralded another step to bypass it and it's reached a point of being silly.


Side note, did a bunch of work on Win10 this week.
I swear this OS hasn't gotten any better since the day it was released.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 06 June 2020, 07:50:29

When setting up a new system disconnect from the net before you get to account creation otherwise MS is now making it extremely difficult or even impossible to bypass it.


Thank you very much. Although it would be a PITA, this rig is only a week old and I haven't gotten locked in too deep. Could I wipe it and start over, or do you think that M$ has already tied me to it by recognizing the motherboard?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 06 June 2020, 20:37:37

When setting up a new system disconnect from the net before you get to account creation otherwise MS is now making it extremely difficult or even impossible to bypass it.


Thank you very much. Although it would be a PITA, this rig is only a week old and I haven't gotten locked in too deep. Could I wipe it and start over, or do you think that M$ has already tied me to it by recognizing the motherboard?
You have several options, using the MS guide is by far the fastest and safest.

Another option is just create another admin account, move your data over then remove the old one. This often has hidden minor issues, missing data, shortcuts, etc.. so leave the old account for a while until things are settled and you're happy with it.

Other options
You can just do a refresh which will not wipe out the key.
MS has the key tied to an email account so there's a way to do that without using an online account, but don't ask em how.
Use a tool to recover your key then fresh install,  I recommend doing this anyhow if you are on a retail (non-oem) Windows as you can move your key when you replace the system hard drive. Just search Google for product key recovery.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sat, 06 June 2020, 21:05:32
I bought a fresh new retail Windows 10 disc since all my other computers are running on upgraded 7/8 keys I figured I should go legit this time.

Maybe I will start over, seems like it might be safer in the long run.

Tangentially off-topic, when Linux Mint 20 is released I want to install it in the same box on a dedicated hard drive, selecting the boot drive in BIOS rather than having them fight it out in MBR and Grub. Mint seems very evasive regarding a release date, do you have any insider information on that?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 07 June 2020, 01:08:29
Your 7/8 keys are legit and work with 10 legally.

Mint is a great starter, though after being off it a while and helping others get onto it I have a bit of change of heart on it.
It's works great and I aplaud their efforts to tell Ubuntu to go F themselves (https://news.slashdot.org/story/20/06/05/2148219/linux-mint-dumps-ubuntu-snap) over their new package manager (SNAP), what I don't like and what ultimately turned me and every Mint user I know to switch was their absolutely horrendous update system. I don't mean daily and weekly I mean the big upgrades from 17 to 18 and 18 to 19 etc...  They can't seem to make that smooth to save their lives. It is always a nihgtmare and very often results in needing a ton of repairs or just dumping the system. And because of how their repos work if you don't upgrade you get left behind since everything in the repo is version based and tested so if you have Mint 18 you're currently stuck on VLC 2.0, you can hack your way around and get 3.0 but you shouldn't have to. Get too far behind and there is really no way forward at all, though this is true with Ubuntu and many others.

Ubuntu handles version upgrades better, but you still get trapped into the issue of only allowing versions of programs they allow. Ubuntu is also pushing everything over to SNAP. This will unfortunately effect quite a few downstream distros as well.

If you want to game on it, which has gotten surprisingly good and may allow you to ditch Windows*, I'd recommend Pop! (Ubuntu based) or something Arch based (Manjaro is popular, I prefer Arco). Pop! puts effort into making gaming on Linux easy and Arch distros are right there with it taking just a tad more effort. The two big differences here is Pop! will be a tad more stable but Arch based never, ever needs a major version update. In my experience, the claims of Arch being less stable is kind of silly, yes, Ubuntu and Pop are more stable, but that difference is so miniscule and all are so stable that you're arguing over a percentage point or less probably.


*For games I have Steam for Linux, I run Photoshop CS6 (or 7) in PlayonLinux (I set this up a few years ago), and I recently put a Win7 VM to run Fusion 360 temporarily. I can get everything onto Wine or a VM  but this system works well for me as Photoshop is a click away but safe from viruses that WINE can bring and Fusion is in a VM for simplicity, and when I use it I'm usually using it for a while, not just cropping a picture. At some point I plan on putting both into containers and be done with it I just need to get it setup. As it is I can backup PlayOnLinux and the VM quickly and move them if needed.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: funkmon on Wed, 10 June 2020, 01:55:42
What do you think about KDE Neon?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 10 June 2020, 05:37:23
What do you think about KDE Neon?
Not bad, nothing special but also not bad.
The one fear is KDE could decide to just stop supporting it, it's not their priority. I also have a hard time seeing how it's any better than Kubuntu.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: suicidal_orange on Fri, 12 June 2020, 13:01:33
Viruses in wine?!  That's a new one, will have to do some research.

Didn't know the Windows 7 keys I inherited when mum's work upgraded their computers were legit for 10 either.  If something really weird comes up I could Win10 briefly though I have no intention of doing so at this time.  Arch hasn't destroyed itself yet and it must have been a couple of years - that's probably a record for me (https://cdn.geekhack.org/Smileys/solosmileys/laugh.gif)

You can add OpenSUSE to the 'nightmare version upgrade' list, took me an hour to convince it I wanted mum's keyboard to be ISO-UK last time, amongst other problems.  I do like the transparent bootscreen that shows BIOS behind it though (but I think it's a glitch as BIOS should be finished)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Fri, 12 June 2020, 15:17:36

You can add OpenSUSE to the 'nightmare version upgrade' list,


I really wanted to give OpenSUSE a go a few years ago, but the online "help" community was unbelievably rude and arrogant, they really put forth effort to run me away.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 12 June 2020, 23:01:04
Viruses in wine?!  That's a new one, will have to do some research.

Didn't know the Windows 7 keys I inherited when mum's work upgraded their computers were legit for 10 either.  If something really weird comes up I could Win10 briefly though I have no intention of doing so at this time.  Arch hasn't destroyed itself yet and it must have been a couple of years - that's probably a record for me
Show Image
(https://cdn.geekhack.org/Smileys/solosmileys/laugh.gif)


You can add OpenSUSE to the 'nightmare version upgrade' list, took me an hour to convince it I wanted mum's keyboard to be ISO-UK last time, amongst other problems.  I do like the transparent bootscreen that shows BIOS behind it though (but I think it's a glitch as BIOS should be finished)
Wine can definitely do it depending on what you add to it, however they are limited in what all they can do being as it's still Linux after all.

If you want to play with Win10, install while offline and never register it. MS doesn't seem to care. You get a popup once in a while and a black desktop but meh.

Pretty sure anything other than Arch (and distros based on it) and maybe Slack have update issues and it always comes down to versioning. Debian got around this for a few years by simply never updating, can't have troubles updating if you never update, though this also shows they don't need versioning as much as they make it seem. I understand why they do it, I just don't agree with it, at least at the desktop level as things move too fast.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 14 June 2020, 17:08:11
Mint seems very evasive regarding a release date, do you have any insider information on that?

Mint doesn't usually publicize release dates in advance. The beta for Mint 20 is out now, and the current target is for it to release this month -- I've just set 'July 1' in my head as the 'anticipated' release date, and have put it out of my head other than that.

... what I don't like and what ultimately turned me and every Mint user I know to switch was their absolutely horrendous update system. I don't mean daily and weekly I mean the big upgrades from 17 to 18 and 18 to 19 etc...  They can't seem to make that smooth to save their lives. It is always a nihgtmare and very often results in needing a ton of repairs or just dumping the system. And because of how their repos work if you don't upgrade you get left behind since everything in the repo is version based and tested so if you have Mint 18 you're currently stuck on VLC 2.0, you can hack your way around and get 3.0 but you shouldn't have to. Get too far behind and there is really no way forward at all, though this is true with Ubuntu and many others.

I get around this by not automatically doing each major upgrade, and just sticking with the installed version until I reach a point where I can't do what I need without a newer version of some package. I'll be moving my Mint 18 (not 18.3, 18!) box to Mint 20 when it releases, as 18.x is only supported until 2021 anyway, and I need a newer version of OpenVPN now than what I can access in the Mint 18 repos. Will probably pair the upgrade with a new boot drive (are 120GB SSDs even sold anymore?), and will just move files over that I need -- I know there's a lot of crap from the past 4 years that I don't need anymore, so I don't see a pressing need to try and make the upgrade system work.

I would definitely be more upset with the version upgrade system if I was trying to stay on top of the latest release and do an in-place upgrade.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 14 June 2020, 22:19:45
I get around this by not automatically doing each major upgrade, and just sticking with the installed version until I reach a point where I can't do what I need without a newer version of some package. I'll be moving my Mint 18 (not 18.3, 18!) box to Mint 20 when it releases, as 18.x is only supported until 2021 anyway, and I need a newer version of OpenVPN now than what I can access in the Mint 18 repos. Will probably pair the upgrade with a new boot drive (are 120GB SSDs even sold anymore?), and will just move files over that I need -- I know there's a lot of crap from the past 4 years that I don't need anymore, so I don't see a pressing need to try and make the upgrade system work.

I would definitely be more upset with the version upgrade system if I was trying to stay on top of the latest release and do an in-place upgrade.
Major upgrades by Mint never happen automatically and it's the in place upgrade that is the problem. I've had one work and three completely bork, that's not very good odds and it's never as simple as "sudo apt-get upgrade", etc.. or if on Arco  it's simply "update".

My problem is even skipping one means being left quite a bit behind, not on the OS itself necessarily but everything else. For example if you're on Mint 18 you're still stuck on VLC 2.2.2 whereas most of us are on 3.0.10, which is 10 updates behind, including a major version. You can fix this, but you shouldn't need to. WINE is even worse, WINE is bad on Ubuntu to begin with, but current for Mint 18 is 1.6, current is 5.0.1 Granted versions have come fast and furious since Steam took off but Mint and Ubuntu is usually couple years behind even at release. You may not notice VLC being behind that far but WINE 1.6 compared to current is like running Windows 2000 compared to Win10, it's that far behind.

I don't dislike Mint, I just wish they could fix a few of those issues.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 16 June 2020, 18:21:19
the Start menu is just COMPLETELY useless. It only searches for online results instead of searching my actual computer for what I'm looking for. Cortana is turned off, but it never ever, and I mean NEVER pulls up what I am looking for. Completely incapeable of finding any extension or file on my computer. I just don't understand the purpose of searching in Start now. The entire point was to quickly pull up some buried file, but they disable that and only allow searching online or settings? It's absolutely bizarre. I literally cannot pull up simple command files because the Start doesn't search for them and the search bar cannot find them. Infuriating.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: fohat.digs on Tue, 16 June 2020, 19:54:20
I built a new computer and started from ground zero about 3 weeks ago. That same thing had been irritating me under my skin for a long time.

After about a week or 2, I complained and Leslieann suggested a clean new installed while not connected to the internet. I did that and regedit-ed out Cortana, OneDrive, Bing, and everything else I could think of before I plugged in the ethernet cable for the first time.

It still pulls up Bing and searches the internet.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 16 June 2020, 20:39:27
the Start menu is just COMPLETELY useless.
It's been useless since Win8.

MS declared the start menu dead years ago (seriously), and has purposely been trying to kill it every since.
You are expected to pin everything used often to the task bar and desktop, then lesser used apps to the start menu. You can thank phones and tablets for this wonderful idea.

After about a week or 2, I complained and Leslieann suggested a clean new installed while not connected to the internet. I did that and regedit-ed out Cortana, OneDrive, Bing, and everything else I could think of before I plugged in the ethernet cable for the first time.

It still pulls up Bing and searches the internet.
Installing offline only fixes the online account issue, nothing else.

See what I wrote above about the start menu.
Pretty sure O&O lets you disable online search and Cortana, it helps but start menus is still pretty useless (by design).

I disable Cortana during install then again with O&O Shutup10, I also use that to disable updates. If you use any of these tweaks make sure the tool is up to date, or your registry hacks match the Windows version you are using AND disable ALL updates. Failure to do both can cause problem, even a failure to boot.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: funkmon on Tue, 16 June 2020, 23:32:44
Guys, it's easier than you're making it. There's a piece of software called Winaereo Tweaker and it can fix this for you.

(https://i.imgur.com/eWW8a7f.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Rd5VgcF.png)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 17 June 2020, 03:04:13
Guys, it's easier than you're making it. There's a piece of software called Winaereo Tweaker and it can fix this for you.

MS doesn't like you messing with their search system, or anything else in the OS they don't approve of. 

Either do it right or don't do it at all, if you aren't also stopping updates, you're asking for trouble.


Edit:
looking at it more it seems all this tweak is doing is shoving all the control panel stuff into a better layout so you find things. Next update MS may turn all this stuff right back on, which they have been known to do.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: yuanyasmine on Tue, 30 June 2020, 03:24:31
I love my Win10 installation, no problems and its faster and more secure.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 30 June 2020, 11:10:48
I love my Win10 installation, no problems and its faster and more secure.

In my experience, faster than any relatively modern operating system besides pretty well streamlined installations of Linux. Certainly faster than Windows 7 on every piece of hardware I have ran both on, even though it is many years newer. I think Windows 8 may tie, but Windows 8 is terrible, so I haven't really compared them other than 8 came on a system and I briefly used it, or it is one of those weird Bay Trail Atom systems where installing anything you actually prefer is a nightmare.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Tue, 30 June 2020, 23:58:38
Me: Working on something with updates turned off and powercycle permissions  denied

Win10: Did you say shutdown all apps and reset?
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 01 July 2020, 05:34:56
In my experience, faster than any relatively modern operating system besides pretty well streamlined installations of Linux. Certainly faster than Windows 7 on every piece of hardware I have ran both on, even though it is many years newer. I think Windows 8 may tie, but Windows 8 is terrible, so I haven't really compared them other than 8 came on a system and I briefly used it, or it is one of those weird Bay Trail Atom systems where installing anything you actually prefer is a nightmare.
Most claim the opposite, with Win10 getting slower lately.

Might be time for some testing, though Win7 is becoming more and more of a hassle to install.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Wed, 01 July 2020, 11:29:27
In my experience, faster than any relatively modern operating system besides pretty well streamlined installations of Linux. Certainly faster than Windows 7 on every piece of hardware I have ran both on, even though it is many years newer. I think Windows 8 may tie, but Windows 8 is terrible, so I haven't really compared them other than 8 came on a system and I briefly used it, or it is one of those weird Bay Trail Atom systems where installing anything you actually prefer is a nightmare.
Most claim the opposite, with Win10 getting slower lately.

Might be time for some testing, though Win7 is becoming more and more of a hassle to install.

in lieu of minimal Linux, Windows 10 is my go-to for older systems. I disable all of the useless garbage that's quick and easy to do so, like Cortana, anyway. Cortana is what pointlessly eats most of the resources.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: WholesomeDucky on Wed, 08 July 2020, 08:25:16
With some light mods to disable things like Xbox integration and Cortana, as well as the usual telemetry, yes.

It's a perfectly functional OS and despite it's annoyances, many can be fixed with scripts / using Win10Pro. I don't see any other Windows being worth using in the modern day.

That said, I hate windows. As soon as Linux gaming is a little more viable for me, I will be switching over full time.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Wed, 08 July 2020, 21:43:34
With some light mods to disable things like Xbox integration and Cortana, as well as the usual telemetry, yes.

It's a perfectly functional OS and despite it's annoyances, many can be fixed with scripts / using Win10Pro. I don't see any other Windows being worth using in the modern day.

That said, I hate windows. As soon as Linux gaming is a little more viable for me, I will be switching over full time.
Anti-cheat is pretty much the only remaining issue and it will probably never be fully fixed, some of them are too entwined with Windows and likely always will be.

If you wait for it to cover EVERYTHING, it never will, it simply can't.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: WholesomeDucky on Mon, 13 July 2020, 10:48:23
With some light mods to disable things like Xbox integration and Cortana, as well as the usual telemetry, yes.

It's a perfectly functional OS and despite it's annoyances, many can be fixed with scripts / using Win10Pro. I don't see any other Windows being worth using in the modern day.

That said, I hate windows. As soon as Linux gaming is a little more viable for me, I will be switching over full time.
Anti-cheat is pretty much the only remaining issue and it will probably never be fully fixed, some of them are too entwined with Windows and likely always will be.

If you wait for it to cover EVERYTHING, it never will, it simply can't.

Oh, I know Linux will probably never have full compat. But it seems like every time I'm ready to make the switch and just have Windows on a backup drive, I check the compatibility lists and there's SOME game I'm currently playing a ton of that won't run on Linux yet.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 13 July 2020, 21:38:03
Oh, I know Linux will probably never have full compat. But it seems like every time I'm ready to make the switch and just have Windows on a backup drive, I check the compatibility lists and there's SOME game I'm currently playing a ton of that won't run on Linux yet.
It will probably always be that way unless you get lucky and a game is supported right away but even if that happens, the next probably won't.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Darthbaggins on Tue, 14 July 2020, 13:59:39
Linux has come a very long way with game compatibility, especially over the past few years.  I made a linux test box out of an old Intel NUC I was given so I can test distros out so I can be ready for when i have to deploy for certain clients here at work.  I primarily use w10 due to Adobe and games, but I still tinker within Linux (Debian based) when I want to break something for fun and fix it.  Eventually I plan on launching a copy of Ubuntu onto my son's machine (he's only 5) so he can start learning it much like when I started learning DOS, w3.1, and OS 8 & 9 when I was close to his age. 
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: yui on Wed, 15 July 2020, 04:45:06
Oh, I know Linux will probably never have full compat. But it seems like every time I'm ready to make the switch and just have Windows on a backup drive, I check the compatibility lists and there's SOME game I'm currently playing a ton of that won't run on Linux yet.
proton is actually becoming pretty good, there is still quite a few old games that it does not work with but for recent games i had mostly good surprises with it and well it is free to try the only issue that is still somewhat a problem with linux gaming is the sub par nVidia support, but if you are on AMD (other than GCN1.0) you should be pretty much set, my hate for 10 also helps with seeing linux as a better alternative maybe.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Surefoot on Wed, 15 July 2020, 09:42:57
the only issue that is still somewhat a problem with linux gaming is the sub par nVidia support
Only if you use the open source driver. Use the proper NVidia proprietary driver and it's basically the same quality and version as the windows one.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: yui on Wed, 15 July 2020, 09:49:40
the only issue that is still somewhat a problem with linux gaming is the sub par nVidia support
Only if you use the open source driver. Use the proper NVidia proprietary driver and it's basically the same quality and version as the windows one.
true but it is a pain to install on most distros, AMDGPU being backed into the kernel makes it much easier, to be fair you also need to install drivers on windows, but the process is usually much more automated, although my last experience with nVidia on linux was 6 years ago so it may have evolved quite a bit.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: WholesomeDucky on Wed, 15 July 2020, 10:04:40
the only issue that is still somewhat a problem with linux gaming is the sub par nVidia support
Only if you use the open source driver. Use the proper NVidia proprietary driver and it's basically the same quality and version as the windows one.
true but it is a pain to install on most distros, AMDGPU being backed into the kernel makes it much easier, to be fair you also need to install drivers on windows, but the process is usually much more automated, although my last experience with nVidia on linux was 6 years ago so it may have evolved quite a bit.
The Windows nVidia driver experience isn't bad. I would say it's about the same level of complexity as the AMD Windows driver. Only personal quirk is that I don't install the HD audio driver or the 3d vision stuff since I do not use them, but it's just two checkboxes so not at all a pain.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Surefoot on Wed, 15 July 2020, 12:01:26
true but it is a pain to install on most distros, AMDGPU being backed into the kernel makes it much easier
Again, on Ubuntu it's just a mouse click on "Do you want to use NVidia proprietary drivers ?". Actually easier than the Windows counterpart where you do have to navigate to nvidia.com, get to the driver download section, download the said driver, then execute the install, then reboot.
AMD support is so-so for gaming on Linux as the drivers arent as good.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Sintpinty on Wed, 15 July 2020, 17:21:40
I use windows because for the games compatability
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Z41N on Fri, 24 July 2020, 19:27:15
So I was asking this exact question to myself. What triggered it was how I was getting into programming a few months ago and was like "should I get a mac?". So I did, and it was cool but man I went down a rabbithole of spec comparisons and benchmarks. tldr, macs are smooth and compact, but not for the power user. Jumped back to my W10 machine and was in love all over again with windows.

HOWEVER, windows 10 is definitely far from good, with its bloatware, elevation settings, garbage updates, some layout stuff, and a few other things.

Nothing will ever compare to Windows 7 in my books
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 24 July 2020, 21:11:00
tldr, macs are smooth and compact, but not for the power user. Jumped back to my W10 machine and was in love all over again with windows.

Nothing will ever compare to Windows 7 in my books
Macs are for power users, everything can be, however the use case matters.

It also depends on the amount of pain you are willing to endure to change.
Despite how it might seem, power users actually have a much harder time switching OS than a noob. While you have a greater tech understanding, you have to unlearn habits and workflow you rely on while a new user is just fumbling their way through.  If you are fumbling workflow and understanding doesn't matter.

I talked a bit about it here (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94156.msg2564130#msg2564130).
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Sat, 25 July 2020, 04:29:08
Despite how it might seem, power users actually have a much harder time switching OS than a noob. While you have a greater tech understanding, you have to unlearn habits and workflow you rely on while a new user is just fumbling their way through.  If you are fumbling workflow and understanding doesn't matter.

Thing that was a real pain point for me, working on a Hackintosh for years then going back to Windows; taskbar widgets - they’re so good on Mac. Having that unified little bar at the top of your screen at all times that you can put these well supported little widgets in, just lovely. Going from GeekTool to RainMeter is a little bit of a pain too, but manageable.

Thing that always gets me most though, as somebody who appreciates when apps are designed well aesthetically, is just how inconsistent and badly designed some Windows apps are. Metro/Store apps have made it a bit better, but not being able to make a consistent dark theme across your entire system, for example, uck.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: funkmon on Sun, 26 July 2020, 22:48:53
Man, I have not had that issue at all. Haha. I hate all that crap on Mac.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 27 July 2020, 02:55:18
I've never used any of that stuff, I never wanted to sacrifice the resources and desktop space.

Ironically, by the time I felt I had the resources I had so much to spare I didn't really need to monitor them.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Mon, 27 July 2020, 04:52:24
Ha, that's a fair point, I just liked eye candy.

To be honest, it's kind of still that now with RainMeter, it's not like I don't have a window in front of my desktop 90% of the time.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Thu, 30 July 2020, 13:16:05
I've never used any of that stuff, I never wanted to sacrifice the resources and desktop space.

Ironically, by the time I felt I had the resources I had so much to spare I didn't really need to monitor them.

I still go through the startup and process lists and disable everything I think is wasting resources with no real payoff, even if there's really no major practical need due to excessively capable hardware. I even wish I had more time/motivation to still go through and strip all of the useless trash out of Windows entirely like I used to with XP.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 30 July 2020, 22:17:13
I still go through the startup and process lists and disable everything I think is wasting resources with no real payoff, even if there's really no major practical need due to excessively capable hardware. I even wish I had more time/motivation to still go through and strip all of the useless trash out of Windows entirely like I used to with XP.
I stopped doing that about the time Win8 came out, the resource savings and speed increases were no longer worth bothering. I did however limit apps at startup by using Winpatrol but that was also due to privacy and security reasons.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: romevi on Thu, 06 August 2020, 00:40:16
I installed Win10 Education. Got it for free from my school, and had a spare laptop lying around. It's not bad. I see a lot of bloat has been removed, but I think the Office Suite was preinstalled. Not sure whether I should be glad.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 06 August 2020, 00:50:05
Most Office hatred stems from the price, the programs themselves are pretty solid.

Other than Outlook,
Outlook needs to die in the fiery pits of hell alongside those who designed it. Seriously, straight to hell.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: TheNamesTy45 on Thu, 06 August 2020, 06:00:55
Win10 has been really stable for me. I love Linux, but I haven’t really loved any of the DEs for them. WSL2 has been the perfect option for me. I can use my Affinity Designer natively when not coding and then drop into my Ubuntu install in the terminal with zsh, run s3cmd, handle all my node stuff, vim, docker, ssh into my server, and other command line things through windows terminal and my Ubuntu distro. The privacy aspect isn’t great; however, most things I wouldn’t want to advertise are public records anyway (address, voting record, etc).

In short, Win10 has been a good experience for me on the desktop and WSL2 gives me access to the phenomenal terminal of a Linux install.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Thu, 06 August 2020, 06:55:15
In short, Win10 has been a good experience for me on the desktop and WSL2 gives me access to the phenomenal terminal of a Linux install.

WSL has made a lot of things easier. We don't allow dual-boot where I work on security grounds, so rather than making researchers choose between a managed Ubuntu or managed Windows 10 environment, we just let them use WSL.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 06 August 2020, 17:43:56
It really is infuriating that you cannot turn updates off at all but MS keeps releasing forced updates that break my system.

Especially infuriating that the postponing updates setting is really more of a suggestion because if there's a "required update" it will override that setting and install the update regardless.

Every single week. Literally every week, I wind up spending 40mins to an hour fixing something that an update I never wanted broke in my environment. Never EVER had this issue with Win7, now it is a weekly thing that I am sure drives my blood pressure up every time I turn on my workstation only to discover it installed and reset in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: -Jerry- on Thu, 06 August 2020, 18:06:01
What kind of stuff do you find broken? I’ve not had anything break in an update on either my home PC or work PC (which is set up for early access updates) so it always seems somewhat circumstantial when I hear about updates breaking stuff.

People at work hate it, of course, because researchers like to be silly and run their intensive fluid dynamics simulations on their £30k workstations which are managed and therefore have updates every two weeks (we tell them when these will be) as opposed to our HPC.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 06 August 2020, 18:45:22
What kind of stuff do you find broken? I’ve not had anything break in an update on either my home PC or work PC (which is set up for early access updates) so it always seems somewhat circumstantial when I hear about updates breaking stuff.

People at work hate it, of course, because researchers like to be silly and run their intensive fluid dynamics simulations on their £30k workstations which are managed and therefore have updates every two weeks (we tell them when these will be) as opposed to our HPC.

A lot of it has to do with security permissions, constant sound issues, reformatting my files without permission, resetting right when I'm in the middle of working on something, Win10 intensively using hardware resources as it idles in the background doing literally nothing etc.

It's different nearly every week.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Thu, 06 August 2020, 21:47:40
I hate the pointless re-arranging.
I deal a lot with networking and the right click function on the network icon near the clock has changed multiple times, you never know where it leads. Can I right click on start and get to device manager... Not this version but you can get to the old control panel that way, but not the computer sitting right next to it. 

Pure madness.


Same when it comes to adding features,
I had one recently where the system was crashing, figuring it was a bad update first thing I told them to do was set delayed updates. That didn't exist, the system hadn't been updated in a while and it was that lack of updates causing the problem, the app needed some new included file. I have no issue with MS adding features, the problem is there's no easy way to track them.
 
Before you had service packs which easily identified what stage of updates the OS was at, now you have some random internal code, like right now the latest major update is 2004. They couldn't pick something more user friendly than something that looks like a date from years gone by? And where do you find this? Oh, it's buried. Gee thanks. Buried also means people making tutorials on fixing problems won't mention it and that creates a whole new set of issues.

How bad do you think all of the tutorials will be in 2 years, or even 4 or 6 years from now?
"Just click on control panel"
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Mon, 10 August 2020, 09:48:02
I hate the pointless re-arranging.
I deal a lot with networking and the right click function on the network icon near the clock has changed multiple times, you never know where it leads. Can I right click on start and get to device manager... Not this version but you can get to the old control panel that way, but not the computer sitting right next to it. 

Pure madness.

Yeah, agreed. M$' organization has seemed to usually get steadily worse with each change in interface to begin with, though 10 walked back a lot of the abominations of 8. Don't Win + X and right clicking the start button give you the same context menu? I could have sworn device manager has been in there from the start, and I'm pretty sure I have already used it on "2004" systems as well.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: jamster on Mon, 10 August 2020, 10:12:10
Microsoft seems to do UI by committee, it is terrible. All of their enterprise stuff drives me insane, and yes, the constant tweaking with each win10 update is incredibly frustrating.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: WholesomeDucky on Tue, 11 August 2020, 08:10:36
I wouldn't mind MS trying to make people use the new Metro settings menu, I really wouldn't....IF they would stop REMOVING FEATURES.

DON'T FORCE ME TO USE THE NEW SETTINGS MENU WHEN YOU HAVEN'T ADDED ALL THE SETTINGS IN THERE YET.

Particularly with sound. The new sound menu is absolutely atrocious, and the old one (still accessible) works perfectly fine, no bugs, nothing wrong with it. I do a lot of complicated sound setup when I'm working with various programs (voicemeeter pro, resanance, voicemod, VR things from time to time...) and I don't even waste my time with the new menu anymore. Literally made a shortcut and set a ctrl+alt+] hotkey for it so I can pull it up quickly.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Maledicted on Tue, 11 August 2020, 09:59:03
Particularly with sound. The new sound menu is absolutely atrocious, and the old one (still accessible) works perfectly fine, no bugs, nothing wrong with it. I do a lot of complicated sound setup when I'm working with various programs (voicemeeter pro, resanance, voicemod, VR things from time to time...) and I don't even waste my time with the new menu anymore. Literally made a shortcut and set a ctrl+alt+] hotkey for it so I can pull it up quickly.

Yes, this can't be understated. I miss having a quickly-accessible test button to make sure all of the speakers are working, etc. I used this constantly in Windows 7 since every room down a hallway may have a slightly different setup in some of these schools.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: tp4tissue on Tue, 11 August 2020, 18:48:22
Switched Tp4's x220 to Win 10 pro,  runs prettty fast so far..  latest win10 build version has better gpu support for the ol'HD3000

I would say slightly faster than win 7 for newer applications
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Venatorious on Tue, 11 August 2020, 19:25:33
Recently decided to quit videogames and focus more on development and so I knew I needed to move away from Windows as there were too many reminders of gaming.  Started dual booting with Manjaro Linux.  Has been working out great so far.   I love Manjaro as I have access to the Arch User Repository and the aesthetic and UI is almost perfect out of the box with Manjaro.  I use an ultrawide monitor so the window snapping and workspaces are a godsend.  The manjaro terminal is something that I love as well, the transparent aesthetic is much appreciated.
(https://imgur.com/CmYZaX2.png)
There are a few things I don't like about linux however.  The first being I need to find a better image manager/editor than digikam since its slow and can't access folders directly. Another thing I don't like is that there isn't any official Onenote support.  The other thing I don't like is that the file browser needs more robust view options.  I can't configure thumbnail sizes like I can in windows.   
I still have Win10 on an SSD but really only use it for photo editing and for xwhatsit configuration software(missing dependency avr-gcc in linux, can't figure out how to remediate)
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 11 August 2020, 22:35:54
The other thing I don't like is that the file browser needs more robust view options.  I can't configure thumbnail sizes like I can in windows.   
This depends on the desktop environment you use, Manjaro isn't an environment just a distro. The file manager is desktop environment based, for example Plasma comes with Dolphin which is way better than the garbage Gnome uses (Nautilus). They're interchangeable regardless of desktop environment (and many to pick from) you just need to try a few. I think the one Ubuntu or Mint uses (might be Nautilus) does support One Drive, not the normal way but it does do cloud storage.

Kind of odd that an OS that hosts most cloud storage has such horrible support for those systems.
Title: Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
Post by: MarrniHigginsFirstOne on Wed, 02 September 2020, 13:08:39
I was using xp,7 and now I am on 10. So I can say for sure this is the best version of windows now.
No doubt. But I think that is all about time, it can be weird if you got xp on your pc in our times.